Making Covid permanent?

[watu05]

The coming legal battle over Covid mandates.

Interesting interview that points out how American vaccination mandates started with George Washington and the source of the legal backing for Biden's requiring vaccinations in businesses (OSHA).

Requiring the COVID Vaccine: The Legal Battle Ahead

More companies have implemented vaccine mandates, even threatening to fire noncompliant employees

www.medpagetoday.com

 

[watu05]

Long Covid Now Has an Official Definition From the World Health Organization

Lingering fatigue, shortness of breath, and brain fog are among the symptoms people may experience months after infection, the WHO says.

gizmodo.com

 

[watu05]

Long Covid Now Has an Official Definition From the World Health Organization

Lingering fatigue, shortness of breath, and brain fog are among the symptoms people may experience months after infection, the WHO says.

gizmodo.com

The downside of recovery from Covid for many...

 

[aTUfan]

my sister in law got both shots. now she has tested positive twice in the last month but has no symptoms. So how is she recorded.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

my sister in law got both shots. now she has tested positive twice in the last month but has no symptoms. So how is she recorded.

As much better off than someone who hadn't taken the vaccine.

 

[watu05]

Scandinavia's trust in government is an interesting contrast to the personal liberties approach pervasive here. Public health has always depended on people willing to work as unit with a element of coercion. Quarantines were the original public health protocol and are by definition coercive or cooperative in nature.

How Did Scandinavians Get Their Pre-Pandemic Lives Back?

Faith in government acknowledged as key driver of pandemic success

www.medpagetoday.com

 

[lawpoke87]

When only 42% of the citizens believe the President is competent to run the government you’re going to erode trust in the same

Americans Give President Biden Lowest Marks Across The Board, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Majority Say The Biden Administration Is Not Competent | Quinnipiac University Poll

"Battered on trust, doubted on leadership, and challenged on overall competency, President Biden is being hammered on all sides as his approval rating continues its downward slide to a number not seen since the tough scrutiny of the Trump administration," said Quinnipiac University Polling...

poll.qu.edu

 

[Gmoney4WW]

In today's divisive environment, I don't know that any president would have much more trust. (Regardless of present 🎁 president's abilities.) Thanks Trump.

 

[aTUfan]

since states have different mask and vaccine mandates. how are companies like airline able to comply for their passengers and employees.

 

[astonmartin708]

since states have different mask and vaccine mandates. how are companies like airline able to comply for their passengers and employees.

Interstate Commerce clause of the constitution mandates that the federal government's regulations would apply, and the Supremacy Clause notes that the Federal Government's mandates supersede those of the states in cases where the laws or policies conflict... that is, assuming the federal mandates are upheld in accordance with the existing precedent. (Not to say the precedent can't change)

 

[lawpoke87]

Small sample size but aspirin ?

Aspirin lowers risk of COVID: New findings support preliminary trial

The treatment reduced the risk of reaching mechanical ventilation by 44%. ICU admissions were lower by 43%, and an overall in-hospital mortality saw a 47% decrease.

m.jpost.com

 

[watu05]

Interstate Commerce clause of the constitution mandates that the federal government's regulations would apply, and the Supremacy Clause notes that the Federal Government's mandates supersede those of the states in cases where the laws or policies conflict... that is, assuming the federal mandates are upheld in accordance with the existing precedent. (Not to say the precedent can't change)

I think OSHA comes in play here as well as it gives the feds ability to create rules for workplace safety.

 

[lawpoke87]

OSHA argument fails when they arbitrarily set the mandate for companies over 100 employees. If it’s a safety issue sufficient to mandate vaccines the action fails to survive judicial review based on this fact alone imo. Hard to argue an urgent safety issue due to the arbitrary nature of this mandate. Not to mention the fact that laws or in this case mandates which arbitrarily targets specific groups of people have not received favorable treatment from the judiciary.

 

[lawpoke87]

Looks like we’re reaching the point where vaccination rates have little impact on new Covid cases. Obviously not good news. The title of this thread appears to be dead on. Vaccinations as well as a reasonable BMI still seem to be somewhat effective in preventing serious illness or death.

Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[astonmartin708]

Looks like we’re reaching the point where vaccination rates have little impact on new Covid cases. Obviously not good news. The title of this thread appears to be dead on. Vaccinations as well as a reasonable BMI still seem to be somewhat effective in preventing serious illness or death.

Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There seems to be some key data and analysis lacking from that article. What is the hospitalization and death rate, not just the case rate, in the counties with significantly higher vaccination rates as compared to those with low vaccination rates?

 

[lawpoke87]

There seems to be some key data and analysis lacking from that article. What is the hospitalization and death rate, not just the case rate, in the counties with significantly higher vaccination rates as compared to those with low vaccination rates?

I stated in my post the article only dealt with case rate and vaccinations still appear to be effective in reducing hospitalizations and death. It just appears vaccinations aren’t going to be effective in eliminating the spread.

 

[astonmartin708]

I stated in my post the article only dealt with case rate and vaccinations still appear to be effective in reducing hospitalizations and death. It just appears vaccinations aren’t going to be effective in eliminating the spread.

Hence why more people need to be vaccinated… because the smart people can’t keep themselves from spreading it to the not so smart people who will be materially more effected.

 

[lawpoke87]

Hence why more people need to be vaccinated… because the smart people can’t keep themselves from spreading it to the not so smart people who will be materially more effected.

Also why there needs to be a nationwide program to eliminate obesity. There should also be exercise mandates at workplaces which require vaccine mandates. The obese (even if vaccinated) are every bit as at risk as a healthy unvaccinated individual. Hell…the obese are at a much higher risk of being hospitalized from almost every ailment. If our goal is health and to keep people out hospitals I find it odd that the Fed’s are silent on this matter. It’s even more important now we’re discovering that vaccines likely won’t end this virus.

 

[astonmartin708]

Also why there needs to be a nationwide program to eliminate obesity. There should also be exercise mandates at workplaces which require vaccine mandates. The obese (even if vaccinated) are every bit as at risk as a healthy unvaccinated individual. Hell…the obese are at a much higher risk of being hospitalized from almost every ailment. If our goal is health and to keep people out hospitals I find it odd that the Fed’s are silent on this matter. It’s even more important now we’re discovering that vaccines likely won’t end this virus.

Obesity is not contagious. It does not cross state lines.

 

[lawpoke87]

And? If the vaccine is no longer effective against the spread of Covid it’s primary benefit is to reduce hospitalizations and death. As you correctly pointed out. Reducing obesity would also achieve a similar result in both the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Not sure what crossing state lines has to do with this particular discussion. If the goal is now to reduce severe health consequences a campaign against obesity should be front and center

 

[astonmartin708]

And? If the vaccine is no longer effective against the spread of Covid it’s primary benefit is to reduce hospitalizations and death. As you correctly pointed out. Reducing obesity would also achieve a similar result in both the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Not sure what crossing state lines has to do with this particular discussion. If the goal is now to reduce severe health consequences a campaign against obesity should be front and center

The vaccine is the greatest single item in the likelihood of reducing hospitalization or death. One can not choose whether or not they are hospitalized with Covid like they can go on a diet to become less obese.

 

[lawpoke87]

The vaccine is the greatest single item in the likelihood of reducing hospitalization or death. One can not choose whether or not they are hospitalized with Covid like they can go on a diet to become less obese.

Do you have current data showing an obese vaccinated person with Covid is less likely to be hospitalized than an unvaccinated person of normal weight? Think you might be surprised.
My point remains, obesity is either the #1 or #2 factor leading to Covid hospitalizations and death (unvaccinated being the other). Yet there is zero effort from the Fed’s to reduce the same. Zero mandate for these large corporations to institute health programs aimed at reducing obesity. Almost as strange as having a mandate which applies only to those who work for large companies.

 

[aTUfan]

the covid vaccination has become a requirement for employment. why stop there?
also require a flu shot, shingles, tb, plague, small pox, measles. And since we are on a roll, prohibit other, at risk people, smokers, obese ...

 

[watu05]

In the most recent PBS poll only 28% of Republicans reported trusting scientists and doctors.

 

[URedskin54]

In the most recent PBS poll only 28% of Republicans reported trusting scientists and doctors.

It’s almost like they experienced a year of prominent public health experts lying to them and testing the political winds before condemning/praising groups of people gathering

 

[Gmoney4WW]

And? If the vaccine is no longer effective against the spread of Covid it’s primary benefit is to reduce hospitalizations and death. As you correctly pointed out. Reducing obesity would also achieve a similar result in both the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Not sure what crossing state lines has to do with this particular discussion. If the goal is now to reduce severe health consequences a campaign against obesity should be front and center

A campaign against obesity has about as much chance of success as the war on poverty, or our efforts to stop global warming. You can't eliminate all the psychological elements affecting individuals eating and exercise habits.

 

[lawpoke87]

In the most recent PBS poll only 28% of Republicans reported trusting scientists and doctors.

28% seems rather high considering

 

[lawpoke87]

A campaign against obesity has about as much chance of success as the war on poverty, or our efforts to stop global warming. You can't eliminate all the psychological elements affecting individuals eating and exercise habits.

Obesity rate in the US is 42.4% and climbing. Obesity rate in Europe is 23%. There is zero reason why our numbers can’t be more inline with Europe. Giving what we know about health risks associated with obesity, one would think this might be an area which needs some attention.

 

[astonmartin708]

Obesity rate in the US is 42.4% and climbing. Obesity rate in Europe is 23%. There is zero reason why our numbers can’t be more inline with Europe. Giving what we know about health risks associated with obesity, one would think this might be an area which needs some attention.

The mass of Europe exists in cities with mass transit. You walk from your home to the grocery store, you walk to the local tram or subway that takes you across the city. You walk to the train station which takes you to the next city where you walk to your hotel. If there’s extreme necessity you might take a bike like in Holland. My wife and I spent three weeks in Europe and only got into two cars the entire time.

 

[lawpoke87]

The mass of Europe exists in cities with mass transit. You walk from your home to the grocery store, you walk to the local tram or subway that takes you across the city. You walk to the train station which takes you to the next city where you walk to your hotel. If there’s extreme necessity you might take a bike like in Holland. My wife and I spent three weeks in Europe and only got into two cars the entire time.

I don’t discount those differences but obesity in rural America is twice that found in rural Europe. Mass transit isn’t the cause of the large discrepancy.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Obesity rate in the US is 42.4% and climbing. Obesity rate in Europe is 23%. There is zero reason why our numbers can’t be more inline with Europe. Giving what we know about health risks associated with obesity, one would think this might be an area which needs some attention.

Actually there are many reasons it can't be inline with Europe. I could write an essay about all of them. But I don't want to waste the time writing pages of explanation.(History, exercise habits, culture, eating habits, mealtime habits, general psychological aspects of European culture vs US culture, etc. , etc.) Your mentioning of this issue seems a little obsessive.

 

[lawpoke87]

Actually there are many reasons it can't be inline with Europe. I could write an essay about all of them. But I don't want to waste the time writing pages of explanation.(History, exercise habits, culture, eating habits, mealtime habits, general psychological aspects of European culture vs US culture, etc. , etc.) Your mentioning of this issue seems a little obsessive.

I’m obviously going overboard with the topic to illustrate the hypocrisy of a targeted private employer / employee mandate done in the name of the health of those employees yet we see the total disregard for a health issue just as deadly to the health of those same individuals.

 

[noble cane]

I’m obviously going overboard with the topic to illustrate the hypocrisy of a targeted private employer / employee mandate done in the name of the health of those employees yet we see the total disregard for a health issue just as deadly to the health of those same individuals.

Dont worry...

Once the takeover is complete we will have new health and excercise standards. New dietary standards.. etc...

Just give Uncle Joe a little more time.

 

[TUMU]

This was the Headline in New Orleans newspaper today:
Louisiana is the only state where White people's Covid vaccination rates lag behind other races.

So it's race in addition to some saying it's Republican or Democrat decision about choosing to vaccinate.

 

[astonmartin708]

This was the Headline in New Orleans newspaper today:
Louisiana is the only state where White people's Covid vaccination rates lag behind other races.

So it's race in addition to some saying it's Republican or Democrat decision about choosing to vaccinate.

It’s really not though. The most conservative states that have hardly any minority populations are the ones with the highest lag rates on vaccinations. (Idaho, Wyoming, West Virginia)

 

[lawpoke87]

What’s crazy is Vermont has the highest vaccination rate in the country yet they’re currently experiencing the most Covid cases than they’ve seen at any time during the pandemic

Vermont COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Vermont COVID-19 Coronavirus update by county with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, current active cases, recoveries, historical data, trends, projections, and timeline.

www.worldometers.info

 

[Clong83a]

Small sample size but aspirin ?

Aspirin lowers risk of COVID: New findings support preliminary trial

The treatment reduced the risk of reaching mechanical ventilation by 44%. ICU admissions were lower by 43%, and an overall in-hospital mortality saw a 47% decrease.

m.jpost.com

Makes some sense. Aspirin can help prevent blood clots, which is something COVID causes. If it can help keep you from developing a embolism that causes lung damage, it might help keep you out of the ICU in some cases.

A bigger study would be useful, and I highly doubt aspirin is having any curative or major effect. But if it has even a small measurable effect on alleviating some of the deadliest symptoms, then everyone who shows up at the hospital ought to be taking it.

Reducing mortality and long term problems by any measurable amount is a win.

 

[Clong83a]

the covid vaccination has become a requirement for employment. why stop there?
also require a flu shot, shingles, tb, plague, small pox, measles. And since we are on a roll, prohibit other, at risk people, smokers, obese ...

As far as vaccines go, they could, and in some places do.

My wife is required to get a flu shot every year to work in her ICU. She might get the flu anyhow, but it still reduces the risk. And there is no reason not to reduce the risk of giving the flu to someone who is desperately ill with something else. If an unvaccinated nurse gave flu to a critically ill patient and killed them, it could be a lawsuit. It could happen anyway, but in one case the hospital did everything reasonable to prevent it, and in the other they didn’t, which makes them potentially liable.

To that point, MMR is required often to work in the schools, depending on the state. Your idea is actually old, and is why employers are not having major legal issues with also requiring a COVID shot. Heck, I’m required to take random drug tests, alcohol tests, and am subject random lie detector tests as a condition of employment. What’s getting a shot on top of that?

Didn‘t know they had a TB shot, and as far as I know nobody still makes a smallpox vaccine. Certainly no plague shot, and it does crop up from time to time around here. Every 2-3 years it rears it’s head and infects a half dozen people in northern NM and kills 1-2 people. Usually older, misdiagnosed at first, and almost universally, pet owners. I guess the dogs and cats have a way of interacting with rodents that makes it more likely for it to get transmitted.

 

[watu05]

Given the number of vaccines that the average person has been required to take to go to school (MMR), go to many colleges (meningitis) and those they have likely had such as flu and polio without claiming they don't have enough information is not credible. This especially true in light of the wacky alternative treatments that some anti-vaxxers (and some politicians) have leapt to. Even the monoclonal antibody treatment (which Trump took on an emergency basis) is as new, far less tested, and fantastically more expensive than vaccines. The new Pfizer pill is equally limited in that it has be administered at the very early stages of infection, is less effective than vaccine and has not been given to hundreds of millions of people.

Employers are by and large delighted with Biden's mandate. They want a healthy workforce and the mandate takes them off the hook. OTOH understandably retauranteurs and retailers don't want to be 'mandate police' which is understandable in our polarized society. About 5% of the people I see at the supermarket and some large stores are either skipping the mask or wearing it under their nose.

 

[URedskin54]

About 5% of the people I see at the supermarket and some large stores are either skipping the mask or wearing it under their nose.

More like 60-70% in El Paso now are refusing masks after we went through one of the worst outbreaks in the world while we had near 100% mask compliance. People understand now that a passing interaction at walmart is not where you're catching it. You catch it in places where you wouldn't be wearing a mask anyway, like at home or hanging out with friends, which is why the mask mandate had no impact here. Something like 90% of adults in El Paso county have had at least one dose of vaccine so I'm not sure what the point would be anyway.