Making Covid permanent?

[lawpoke87]

The POT is leading the effort to undermine faith in science, vaccinations and other public health measures. The hypocrisy of Trump's whining about the vaccines not being available before the election and complaining about not getting credit for Warp Speed sharply contrasts with the POT's efforts to undermine their use. Party over country.

I didn’t ask a single question involving politics. I asked why aren’t we pushing or even requiring individuals take actions against obesity and other known health risks? You know…..those health conditions we have verified result in death and hospitalization among Covid patients.

I’m vaccinated and recommend everyone get stuck. However, we’re going to see that the current vaccines aren’t the cure all as this thing continues to morph especially in those who have been vaccinated. We will continue to see more variants which are vaccine resistant. The only measure guaranteed thus far to reduce the severity of this virus is good overall health of the host. Yet crickets. I don’t understand.

Remember the good ole days when our health officials blamed the lack of available tests as the reason for the spread?

 

[TUMe]

The POT is leading the effort to undermine faith in science, vaccinations and other public health measures. The hypocrisy of Trump's whining about the vaccines not being available before the election and complaining about not getting credit for Warp Speed sharply contrasts with the POT's efforts to undermine their use. Party over country.

I agreed with a post by WATU that this should not come down to politics. Now I read this. I had to decode POT because it is not an everday term used by people who don't want to be devisive. Someone who has just used the word hypocrisy should not engage in it. Some might think "Party over country" is pollitical.

Trump is not involved in the current problem and I hope he goes peacefully away. So let me ask if WATU can leave the attack mode and talk about a real problem.

 

[aTUfan]

ok biden and the dems, and 31% of the blacks, are pushing for people to get the vaccine, masking up again an a covid passport. how any of this different that having a voter id, or drivers license, or a regular pasport

 

[aTUfan]

anything to advance their socialist agenda.

 

[astonmartin708]

I think they have a slightly better excuse for their distrust of the government and authorities in general.

 

[aTUfan]

instead of a carrying covid passport, the government could just give the unvaccinated a tattoo on their arm or make them wear a symbol on their shirt.

 

[astonmartin708]

instead of a carrying covid passport, the government could just give the unvaccinated a tattoo on their arm or make them wear a symbol on their shirt.

Or make them carry identification papers if they want to take advantage of public services like polling places.

 

[aTUfan]

covid id vs voter id; the left is so conflicted.

 

[astonmartin708]

covid id vs voter id; the left is so conflicted.

I'm all for more ID's. I will concede voter ID when you give me Covid ID's and ID's for the right to use a firearm just like a driver's license is necessary to use a car. Deal?

 

[aTUfan]

no problem with any of those.

 

[Clong83a]

True, but polio, measles, etc have been virtually eliminated worldwide through vaccinations. Why not Covid? All US kids get MMR vaxes when small, and residential colleges now frequently require meningitus shots to appear on campus, etc.
The current surges show we in US haven’t achieved herd immunity yet, at least in the south.

Each one of those took decades to eradicate within our borders, and worldwide the only one we’ve had total success with is smallpox. With a virulence higher than chicken pox, I don’t expect COVID to disappear from the US any faster than measles did, and probably never on the world stage. Its weird that some have any other expectation.

But I do think it is possible to control it within our borders, and eventually (think 20 year horizon) make a COVID outbreak as newsworthy as a big measles outbreak is. It just takes time, education, and slowly but surely getting vaccination rates up. I am sure there will be several flare ups along the way, and this is just the first.

Chicken pox vaccine has been out for 25 years now and is relatively non-controversial. Is chicken pox gone from the US yet? Nope. It’s a lot less frequent than when I was a kid, though.

 

[watu05]

Each one of those took decades to eradicate within our borders, and worldwide the only one we’ve had total success with is smallpox. With a virulence higher than chicken pox, I don’t expect COVID to disappear from the US any faster than measles did, and probably never on the world stage. Its weird that some have any other expectation.

But I do think it is possible to control it within our borders, and eventually (think 20 year horizon) make a COVID outbreak as newsworthy as a big measles outbreak is. It just takes time, education, and slowly but surely getting vaccination rates up. I am sure there will be several flare ups along the way, and this is just the first.

Chicken pox vaccine has been out for 25 years now and is relatively non-controversial. Is chicken pox gone from the US yet? Nope. It’s a lot less frequent than when I was a kid, though.

Granted. These are under control or eliminated because the vaccines against them are not controversial and almost universally accepted. MMR is required for kids in school and many residential colleges require. Meningitis shots. NBD. Getting Covid under control will be a lot harder because of the anti vaccine views driven by misinformation.

 

[lawpoke87]

Those are also under control because they don’t rapidly mutate making the vaccine effective in the long term. We haven’t had such luck with influenza due in part to the above stated reason.

 

[Clong83a]

Those are also under control because they don’t rapidly mutate making the vaccine effective in the long term. We haven’t had such luck with influenza due in part to the above stated reason.

That's true, and a legit concern. But given how the mRNA vaccines are designed, and how well they do seem to work against across variants (even Delta), I think there is also some good reason for tempered hope on this front with COVID.

So far there has not been a variant that the vaccines are ineffective against. By that I mean simply that if we had 100% immunization rates, it would eventually fizzle out. I'll grant you that Delta might still circulate for years in that scenario as it seems to have a higher rate of breakthrough cases, but it would still eventually fizzle in a fully vaccinated pool. And that's all you need to eventually get it under control.

Time will tell if something comes around that simply makes a mockery of our vaccine efforts. I sure as hell hope not, for everyone's sake.

 

[lawpoke87]

That's true, and a legit concern. But given how the mRNA vaccines are designed, and how well they do seem to work against across variants (even Delta), I think there is also some good reason for tempered hope on this front with COVID.

So far there has not been a variant that the vaccines are ineffective against. By that I mean simply that if we had 100% immunization rates, it would eventually fizzle out. I'll grant you that Delta might still circulate for years in that scenario as it seems to have a higher rate of breakthrough cases, but it would still eventually fizzle in a fully vaccinated pool. And that's all you need to eventually get it under control.

Time will tell if something comes around that simply makes a mockery of our vaccine efforts. I sure as hell hope not, for everyone's sake.

Pfizer is currently running at 40% against Delta from the last data I saw. Is that good enough to get rid of this thing? Odds we’re dealing with a different mutation 6 months from now?

 

[Clong83a]

Pfizer is currently running at 40% against Delta from the last data I saw. Is that good enough to get rid of this thing? Odds we’re dealing with a different mutation 6 months from now?

I've not seen the 40% number. Can you link? Or give some more detail? 40% effective at what? Preventing the person from being a carrier at all? Preventing symptoms? Or preventing hospitalizations?

It's pretty clear that it is very effective (much more than 40%) at preventing hospitalizations and death. Less so at preventing general circulation or mild cases, but 40% seems pretty low. Even so, it could still be enough. If it not only reduces the severity of the disease, but also the duration (and there is some recent evidence to suggest that asymptomatic vaccinated carriers are contagious only for a very brief time), then you pass it along to fewer people, and if everyone around you is vaccinated, it spreads less. In other words, even in the "failed" 60% of mild breakthrough cases, it spreads only in a more reduced capacity.

So while the jury is still out, I'd have to say yeah, I would have hope that the R0 value would be below 1 for a fully vaccinated community.

 

[lawpoke87]

40% against preventing infection. Much more effective against preventing serious illness. Other studies are now showing similar results

Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine Is Less Effective Against Delta Infections but Still Prevents Serious Illness, Israel Study Suggests

The study from Israel comes as governments around the world try to check the rampant spread of the variant.

www.google.com

 

[Clong83a]

40% against preventing infection. Much more effective against preventing serious illness. Other studies are now showing similar results

Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine Is Less Effective Against Delta Infections but Still Prevents Serious Illness, Israel Study Suggests

The study from Israel comes as governments around the world try to check the rampant spread of the variant.

www.google.com

The WSJ is certainly reputable, and I thank you for that source. I have seen mostly numbers like this one, which reports about 65% efficacy in preventing infection against delta. Livescience link. The underlying study was looking at frontline workers, who have largely already had the vaccine for 7-8 months, so the 65% could be a combo of generally decreasing effectiveness and the delta double whammy. There is no public data yet on what the boosters will do, and I have my own doubts if they will really make it more effective against delta, but I doubt they’ll hurt.

So I guess that all adds up to a whole lot of unsettled questions as to how well it is doing against Delta, and it could be as low as 40%. But it is clear that it is preventing hospitalizations and death, so that much is very good news. And I will stand by my previous statement that control can be attained with efficacy rates in that range, if certain other conditions are met (such as decreased time period of contagiousness for breakthrough cases).

 

[watu05]

The head of Pfizer expects to see variants that can more easily break through current vaccines (lamba?) although delta’s ”success” may limit other variants spread. The limitation on developing new vaccines to meet new viruses or variants at this point appears to be the testing and bureaucratic reviews required, not the speed of creating a new mRNA based response Itself. Pfizer’s view doesn’t hurt its stock price.

 

[watu05]

Cheap prevention....meet expensive, limited cure

This Florida Monoclonal Antibody Clinic Is Maxed Out

Gerald Pierone is treating sick COVID patients in the midst of Florida's antibody rollout

www.medpagetoday.com

 

[URedskin54]

Cheap prevention....meet expensive, limited cure

This Florida Monoclonal Antibody Clinic Is Maxed Out

Gerald Pierone is treating sick COVID patients in the midst of Florida's antibody rollout

www.medpagetoday.com

Glad this treatment is finally being widely used. Up until the last few weeks it had been underutilized and underpromoted to an almost scandalous extent. Treatment should be an all of the above approach. Vaccination and as many people who can get antibody treatment as possible

 

[watu05]

The monoclonal antibody treatment may require multiple doses, is still under Emergency authorization and less 1.5 million doses were purchased by the US government months ago. It's not applicable or available to everyone. Not a replacement for vaccines but great to have at least a partial treatment.

"Lilly’s antibody treatment bamlanivimab, along with Regeneron’s combination imdevimab and casirivimab, both have FDA emergency use authorization to treat high-risk patients with mild to moderate cases of COVID-19 who aren’t hospitalized.
But that’s also part of the problem. Infusions must be prescribed and administered in a hospital or clinic setting, but patients already admitted to the hospital with more severe cases of COVID-19 aren’t eligible."

 

[URedskin54]

The Regeneron treatment requires four doses, is still under Emergency authorization and less 1.5 million doses are available. It's not applicable or available to everyone. Makes vaccines look even better.

"Lilly’s antibody treatment bamlanivimab, along with Regeneron’s combination imdevimab and casirivimab, both have FDA emergency use authorization to treat high-risk patients with mild to moderate cases of COVID-19 who aren’t hospitalized.
But that’s also part of the problem. Infusions must be prescribed and administered in a hospital or clinic setting, but patients already admitted to the hospital with more severe cases of COVID-19 aren’t eligible."

Genuinely don’t understand the need to pit this treatment against vaccines. Do both

 

[aTUfan]

instead of mask or no mask mandates. have both.
a school district could have mask campuses and some not.
airlines could offer mask flights and no mask flights
restaurants could to choose to be one or the other

 

[astonmartin708]

instead of mask or no mask mandates. have both.
a school district could have mask campuses and some not.
airlines could offer mask flights and no mask flights
restaurants could to choose to be one or the other

Dumb

 

[astonmartin708]

Genuinely don’t understand the need to pit this treatment against vaccines. Do both

One is excessively more expensive and less tested, and also requires you to actually get the virus and be somewhat symptomatic rather than trying to prevent symptomatic cases.

The only reason people are turning to this treatment is because they have no other options because they refused to get a vaccine simply because Democrats were asking them to.

 

[URedskin54]

One is excessively more expensive and less tested, and also requires you to actually get the virus and be somewhat symptomatic rather than trying to prevent symptomatic cases.

The only reason people are turning to this treatment is because they have no other options because they refused to get a vaccine simply because Democrats were asking them to.

Again, makes no sense. You can try to prevent cases via vaccine and use this to treat both breakthrough cases and those who didn't get vaccinated. It's not an either or

 

[lawpoke87]

We’re now seeing more and more cases in those who are vaccinated. With Pfizer now running 40% effectiveness and the other vaccines dropping as well why not support both? Covid isn’t going anywhere btw. Too many unvaccinated people as well as the vaccine becoming less effective in preventing infection. Hell…use it on vaccinated people who do find themselves extremely sick as well as sick unvaccinated. Only reason I see not to advocate this treatment is political.

 

[watu05]

Again, makes no sense. You can try to prevent cases via vaccine and use this to treat both breakthrough cases and those who didn't get vaccinated. It's not an either or

Exactly, but skipping vaccinations because the monoclonal antibody treatment exists, is risky, expensive, and does nothing to stop variants and more contagion.

 

[watu05]

We’re now seeing more and more cases in those who are vaccinated. With Pfizer now running 40% effectiveness and the other vaccines dropping as well why not support both? Covid isn’t going anywhere btw. Too many unvaccinated people as well as the vaccine becoming less effective in preventing infection. Hell…use it on vaccinated people who do find themselves extremely sick as well as sick unvaccinated. Only reason I see not to advocate this treatment is political.

It is political in Texas and Florida where the monoclonal treatments are being used as an alternative to vaccine and masking mandates. Yes, we should use everything to stop this disease, the creation of new variants, and to save lives. Mask, social distance, vaccinate and treat when necessary. None of that should be political.

 

[URedskin54]

It is political in Texas and Florida where the monoclonal treatments are being used as an alternative to vaccine and masking mandates. Yes, we should use everything to stop this disease, the creation of new variants, and to save lives. Mask, social distance, vaccinate and treat when necessary. None of that should be political.

Florida's governor has consistently promoted vaccination. Everyone now knows how to get vaccinated if they want to. Few know about this treatment so it makes sense to promote it hard now in their surge. Nothing political about that.

 

[astonmartin708]

Again, makes no sense. You can try to prevent cases via vaccine and use this to treat both breakthrough cases and those who didn't get vaccinated. It's not an either or

I agree that you can still use it, but the it should be seen as a Hail Mary pass. By the point you need to use it your team is already in trouble. The vaccine is like the being handed a team of elite players who will win most games as long as you put them in the position to do so.

 

[lawpoke87]

It is political in Texas and Florida where the monoclonal treatments are being used as an alternative to vaccine and masking mandates. Yes, we should use everything to stop this disease, the creation of new variants, and to save lives. Mask, social distance, vaccinate and treat when necessary. None of that should be political.

DeSantos has advocated vaccines much to the chagrin of the anti-vax people. There’s a difference in urging people to get vaccinated and requiring mandates. I have not seen a single legitimate study showing anything other than a property fitted N95 mask makes a significant impact in preventing the spread of Covid. WHO has stated for years that cloth masks have little to no effect in the spread of similar size viruses. Politics got involved and now we have people walking around who believe a cloth mask provided significant protection against Covid.

Unfortunately, everything with Covid is political. It is what it is. Get vaccinated. Understand it might not prevent you from getting the virus but it will likely keep you out of the hospital. If you aren’t vaccinated (or even if you are) understand that cloth mask you’re wearing is mostly for your peace of mind and not significantly preventative. This isn’t going away. Live your life without fear. At least for the foreseeable future this is the new normal

 

[astonmartin708]

Florida's governor has consistently promoted vaccination. Everyone now knows how to get vaccinated if they want to. Few know about this treatment so it makes sense to promote it hard now in their surge. Nothing political about that.

There is a difference between “promoting” vaccination and PROMOTING vaccination. Delta Airlines is PROMOTING vaccination. By saying “since you want to cost our company and by commutative property your other coworkers money for health insurance, we’re going to charge you extra for health insurance if you don’t get the vaccine”

Make not getting the vaccine punitive. It’s not a mandate. You can be stupid if you want to, but there will be consequences for your stupidity.

 

[astonmartin708]

DeSantos has advocated vaccines much to the chagrin of the anti-vax people. There’s a difference in urging people to get vaccinated and requiring mandates. I have not seen a single legitimate study showing anything other than a property fitted N95 mask makes a significant impact in preventing the spread of Covid. WHO has stated for years that cloth masks have little to no effect in the spread of similar size viruses. Politics got involved and now we have people walking around who believe a cloth mask provided significant protection against Covid.

Unfortunately, everything with Covid is political. It is what it is. Get vaccinated. Understand it might not prevent you from getting the virus but it will likely keep you out of the hospital. If you aren’t vaccinated (or even if you are) understand that cloth mask you’re wearing is mostly for your peace of mind and not significantly preventative.

From a recent study:
masks.

“There is no question it is beneficial to wear any face covering, both for protection in close proximity and at a distance in a room,” said Serhiy Yarusevych, a professor of mechanical and mechatronics engineering and the leader of the study. “However, there is a very serious difference in the effectiveness of different masks when it comes to controlling aerosols.”
.

If we would like to think logically, let’s go back to when covid was starting to spread all over Asia… what was one of the reasons that we gave for Japan performing so well in preventing the rise of cases? Their propensity to mask up due to previous viral outbreaks. Now, they have suffered severe outbreaks since delta came along and vaccines became available. But their death rate compared to ours is 1/10th over the whole pandemic. Part of that is probably due to their evasion of the first wave with masks.

N95’s are superior but there are still benefits to ANY mask.

 

[URedskin54]

There is a difference between “promoting” vaccination and PROMOTING vaccination. Delta Airlines is PROMOTING vaccination. By saying “since you want to cost our company and by commutative property your other coworkers money for health insurance, we’re going to charge you extra for health insurance if you don’t get the vaccine”

Make not getting the vaccine punitive. It’s not a mandate. You can be stupid if you want to, but there will be consequences for your stupidity.

Pass

 

[astonmartin708]

Pass

And that’s why cases are rising. We want to keep allowing stupid people to be stupid when the consequences of their actions effect all of us instead of just them. It’s like a neighbor that won’t take care of their yard and all of the home prices in the vicinity suffer because of it. Ultimately, no one wants to live in the area if they can help it, the impoverished move in, crime rises, and the whole city suffers.

It’s the same reason cities adopt civil mandates regarding what you are and aren’t allowed to do within cities. (Like not being able to farm roosters in city limits) most people wouldn’t do it because they have common curtesy. But some people want to be stupid and ruin everything for everybody.

 

[lawpoke87]

I can show you several that say surgical masks work just nearly as well as N95’s at preventing transmission.

If we would like to think logically, let’s go back to when covid was starting to spread all over Asia… what was one of the reasons that we gave for Japan performing so well in preventing the rise of cases? Their propensity to mask up due to previous viral outbreaks. Now, they have suffered severe outbreaks since delta came along and vaccines became available. But their death rate compared to ours is 1/10th over the whole pandemic. Part of that is probably due to their evasion of the first wave with masks.

Asia is a silly argument. Not a study. No controls. No elimination of other factors. Prefer to look at WHO studies and guidance before this became political. Prefer to look apples to apples so I’ll remain here in the US. Mask mandates alone haven’t been effective. See Michigan. I know the sheep want to feel safe and I get that. Again…there is no legitimate study showing cloth masks are effective. People shouldn’t rely on the same. Get vaccinated and understand the reality that you may get infected again and this isn’t going away.

 

[lawpoke87]

There is a difference between “promoting” vaccination and PROMOTING vaccination. Delta Airlines is PROMOTING vaccination. By saying “since you want to cost our company and by commutative property your other coworkers money for health insurance, we’re going to charge you extra for health insurance if you don’t get the vaccine”

Make not getting the vaccine punitive. It’s not a mandate. You can be stupid if you want to, but there will be consequences for your stupidity.

I assume we’re also surcharging obese people? They cost their companies every bit as much money with their unhealthy lifestyle and health. Smokers as well. They cost my company money. Why aren’t we making them pay? We all know the answer is politics but thought I would ask anyway. If you’re obese or a smoker and you haven’t taken significant steps over the past year to lose weight or stop smoking you’re every bit as much of a problem as those who aren’t vaccinated as far as health care risks. Not sure why we’re punishing one group of stupid people but giving the other a pass. Just watched the news about growing hospitalizations. Lots of talk about getting vaccinated. Not a single word about not being fat. It’s mind boggling.

 

[URedskin54]

And that’s why cases are rising. We want to keep allowing stupid people to be stupid when the consequences of their actions effect all of us instead of just them. It’s like a neighbor that won’t take care of their yard and all of the home prices in the vicinity suffer because of it. Ultimately, no one wants to live in the area if they can help it, the impoverished move in, crime rises, and the whole city suffers.

I can see you're angry, but I'm fine with allowing people to make dumb choices and take dumb risks. If I were the kind of person that was afraid of those dumb people taking dumb risks I would probably just go crawl back into the cocoon I stayed in last year and let everyone go on with life.