Your last contention that say cloth masks aren’t effective based on studies just isn’t true. Period. There are studies that say they are more effective than nothing. The problem is the enforcement of mask mandates. So many people fight them or break them that it subverts their efficacy. It’s not the masks’ physical ineffectiveness that’s causing cases to rise in places like Michigan. It’s people refusing to comply with the mandate.
I’m not afraid of them. They make me angry. Like someone who runs their lawn mower at 4 AM next door. Eventually they’re going to get their tires slashed. Or I’ll go to the civil authorities and have a mandate passed that you can’t do that anymore and you have to comply with certain public expectations. You’d be surprised how many of those mandates exist in every community.
Please show me a legitimate study showing cloth masks are effective. WHO obviously believe they weren’t two years ago before politics became involved.
At least ten studies have confirmed the benefit of universal masking in community level analyses: in a unified hospital system,42 a German city,43 two U.S. states,44, 45 a panel of 15 U.S. states and Washington, D.C.,46, 47 as well as both Canada48 and the U.S. 49-51 nationally. Each analysis demonstrated that, following directives from organizational and political leadership for universal masking, new infections fell significantly. Two of these studies46, 47 and an additional analysis of data from 200 countries that included the U.S.51 also demonstrated reductions in mortality. Another 10-site study showed reductions in hospitalization growth rates following mask mandate implementation 49. A separate series of cross-sectional surveys in the U.S. suggested that a 10% increase in self-reported mask wearing tripled the likelihood of stopping community transmission.53 An economic analysis using U.S. data found that, given these effects, increasing universal masking by 15% could prevent the need for lockdowns and reduce associated losses of up to $1 trillion or about 5% of gross domestic product.47
www.cdc.gov
So here’s what we do. A reverse class action suit against the entirety of America who hasnt been vaccinated for damages related to increased health costs distributed across insurance companies for hospital stays in the unvaccinated (minus the percentage of hospital stays for those who are vaccinated) It would probably have to be carried out by the insurance companies. The only way we drop your name from the suit is you show proof of vaccination. The hospitals could join in too related to their damages for having to shift their traditional focuses to treat Covid patients.
I don’t believe studies conducted in hospital settings are remotely applicable to use by the general public. Reasons are obvious. I thought our discussion was focused on the general public and cloth mask usage and mandates affecting the same. Hospital personnel and environment not equal to Joe Bob at auto plant. Like I said, WHO research found they weren’t effective until 2019 when politics got involvedAt least ten studies have confirmed the benefit of universal masking in community level analyses: in a unified hospital system,42 a German city,43 two U.S. states,44, 45 a panel of 15 U.S. states and Washington, D.C.,46, 47 as well as both Canada48 and the U.S. 49-51 nationally. Each analysis demonstrated that, following directives from organizational and political leadership for universal masking, new infections fell significantly. Two of these studies46, 47 and an additional analysis of data from 200 countries that included the U.S.51 also demonstrated reductions in mortality. Another 10-site study showed reductions in hospitalization growth rates following mask mandate implementation 49. A separate series of cross-sectional surveys in the U.S. suggested that a 10% increase in self-reported mask wearing tripled the likelihood of stopping community transmission.53 An economic analysis using U.S. data found that, given these effects, increasing universal masking by 15% could prevent the need for lockdowns and reduce associated losses of up to $1 trillion or about 5% of gross domestic product.47
Two studies have been improperly characterized by some sources as showing that surgical or cloth masks offer no benefit. A community-based randomized control trial in Denmark during 2020 assessed whether the use of surgical masks reduced the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers (personal protection) by more than 50%. Findings were inconclusive,54 most likely because the actual reduction in infections was lower. The study was too small (i.e., enrolled about 0.1% of the population) to assess whether masks could decrease transmission from wearers to others (source control). A second study of 14 hospitals in Vietnam during 2015 found that cloth masks were inferior to surgical masks for protection against clinical upper respiratory illness or laboratory-confirmed viral infection.55 The study had a number of limitations including the lack of a true control (no mask) group for comparison, limited source control as hospitalized patients and staff were not masked, unblinded study arm assignments potentially biasing self-reporting of illness, and the washing and re-use of cloth masks by users introducing the risk of infection from self-washing. A follow up study in 2020 found that healthcare workers whose cloth masks were laundered by the hospital were protected equally as well as those that wore medical masks.56
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.
Risks are different. One risk is in the cost of money.(increased insurance premiums because of smokers and obese people.) The other risk is in the cost of money, health, and possibly your life. Thankfully smokers and the obese are not contagious.
Correct….but Aston wanted a class action suit based on the increased in costs associated with hospital stays of the unvaccinated. Which was what I was responding too. You pose a much more interesting and complex scenario. I still take issue in that companies haven’t surcharged fat people or smokers for years despite vast differences in health care costs associated with both groups compared to others. Nor have there been lawsuits addressing the higher costs people of a group pay due to the unhealthy habits of other group members
I was being facetious. Wouldn't it be easier to have a federal mask mandate than to try and take every non-vaccinated person to court for damages? lol.
Sorry but these are your rules. Fauci caused 23 9-11s by saying masks don't work as cases surged in NY last year
You believe a federal mask mandate would work when we’ve seen that state mask mandates don’t?
As a vaccinated person that no longer goes out (but did this summer quite a bit), I will say that I am mostly trying to protect my unvaccinated children. I would probably loosen up significantly if I didn’t have that liability. Obviously I can’t speak for others, but there are things like that to consider.
My post wasn’t meant to criticize those vaccinated people who still take extreme precautions. One needs to act in a manner which they feel comfortable. My children have no chronic health conditions so I’ve never been too concerned about bringing something home. I’ve always assumed sending them to school exposed them to much more risk of contracting the virus than anything I do on a day to day basis. The fatality numbers among children with no chronic health conditions does give me some peace. They wouldn’t be at school this year if it didn’t.
I'm not arguing for a federal mask mandate (though I am arguing for a federal vaccine mandate). I'm just saying that masks do work as a minimal defense for you and those around you. It's common courtesy on the level of holding the door open for some one. I would hope that people would wise up and that mandates wouldn't be required. The only thing mandates do is drive workplaces to require masks which might help somewhat, but obviously not enough.
I appreciate that. My youngest has a congenital condition that required major surgery when she was three days old. She also got a very severe case of RSV at age one month and was right back in the hospital. She’s healthy as a horse now, but the RSV damaged her lungs and every time a cold or the flu goes through the house, she gets it the worst so we just don’t want to take extra chances.
My wife has two COVID patients today that don’t even believe that COVID is a real disease and think that they randomly have pneumonia. It’s insane what some people believe. Its easy in the abstract to say ‘Screw them, then’, but they are people that got taken in by some weird misinformation, and she and I want them to recover.
The funny thing is, we've had vaccine mandates for decades. Civil Liberties didn't materially suffer, and we eradicated several sever illnesses. As of the 1998–1999 school year, all states but four (Louisiana, Michigan, South Carolina, and West Virginia) had requirements covering all grades from kindergarten through 12th grade. In all states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico, the requirements covered daycare centers; in 48 states (all but Iowa and West Virginia), the requirements covered Head Start programs. Thirty states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico had some requirements for college entrance. The requirements covered diphtheria toxoid and polio, measles, and rubella vaccines in all 50 states; 49 states required tetanus toxoid, 46 required mumps vaccine, 44 required pertussis vaccine, and 28 required hepatitis B vaccine.29
1). This is not true in many states. In a number of states *anyone can not opt out. And several have specific laws that reduce the right to opt out during outbreaks of the illness that the vaccine covers. That goes doubly for medical / communal care facilities.
You’re talking about the right to LIFE regarding a disease with a higher than 99.8% survival rate. I would classify that as over dramatic.1). This is not true in many states. In a number of states *anyone can not opt out. And several have specific laws that reduce the right to opt out during outbreaks of the illness that the vaccine covers. That goes doubly for medical / communal care facilities.
2) The diseases that I listed had a high survival rate because they had a low transmission rate. For polio, mainly kids were infected. Many who got it might be effected severely, but comparatively few got the disease at all and very, very few Americans died of it per year.
3) I'm not being dramatic. I'm not being fearful. I'm being honest. The rights of the individual do not trump the rights of the masses if we're talking about the same rights (i.e life v. lives) during times of great peril. It's not just my opinion it's a supreme court precedent which was upheld time and again since 1905. Jacobson v. Mass.
Writing for the majority, Justice John Marshall Harlan acknowledged the fundamental importance of personal freedom, but also recognized that “the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand.”
A) That survival rate has been effected in a positive way by people who are getting it but have been vaccinated and don't have significant symptoms. B) I just showed you a link to all of the mandates for vaccines in the US. 30 year old men didn't have to get the Polio vaccine because they were unlikely to catch Polio, but in many states, 99% of children were required to get it. Children who then became 30 year old men.You’re talking about the right to LIFE regarding a disease with a higher than 99.8% survival rate. I would classify that as over dramatic.
To my knowledge there are no vaccine mandates. Now if you want to attend a place there are mandates just like Covid. I’m not aware of any law which requires a 30 year old man to get a polio vaccine. If I’m incorrect please send a link.
Look…I’m pro vaccine. I’m vaccinated. All my family over 12 is vaccinated. Do I want anyone to die….no. Do I have less sympathy for adults who decide not to get the vaccine and find themselves in an ICU….yes. Not sure that’s the right attitude but that’s where I’m at. Maybe your lack of empathy is rubbing off on me
There religious beliefs not allowing vaccinations. Personal beliefs usually don't play into it. And, like I said, a number of states throw out those religious exemptions that you describe when there are outbreaks ongoing.
Yep, I've got one branch of my family that is that way. I never even tried to convince them. It was a useless exercise with no hope of success today, tomorrow, or 10 years from now. I could see that from the start when they were spouting their beliefs to other family members who were an echo chamber to their position.
Really?
www.webmd.com
Yes. Really. Go to the column with "Philosophical Beliefs" and count the number of "YES". 13. There are more religious beliefs; however, like I said, religious exemptions tend to end when outbreaks begin, and proving a religious exemption isn't simple in every state. For example, it's going to be hard to convince someone that your Catholic beliefs prevent you from getting the vaccine when the Pope himself has said you should get it.Really?
States With Religious and Philosophical Exemptions From School Immunization Requirements
All 50 states have legislation requiring specified vaccines for students. 44 states and Washington D.C. that grant religious exemptions for people who have religious objections to immunizations.www.ncsl.org
Immunization Exemptions: The Rules & Laws Explained
Statistics show that states where exemptions are easy to get have more unvaccinated kids than states that make the process harder.
I count 15. Personal beliefs certainly do play a part in this in almost 1/3 of the states. Saying they absolutely don’t is flat out incorrect. To be honest your type of belief doesn’t really matter. If you don’t want a vaccine you can claim either exception. No one is going to question it imo
Except during times of outbreaks.... like I've said repeatedly. During time of outbreak those exceptions are thrown out the window in a number of states. It isn't a get out of jail free card like you believe it is.
What makes life worth living doesn't exist when you're frigging dead. You're lucky that there was a hospital bed available considering the amount of ICU beds that are going to the unvaccinated in Tulsa and elsewhere. The effects of the illness of the non-vaxxed go beyond their own person.
