Joe Biden

[astonmartin708]

This is exactly what I was talking about. Fluffy language while dancing around the specifics of how raising the minimum wage significantly above the equilibrium in a given area will somehow not result in significant job losses. Pretending the consequences don't exist does not make those consequences go away. At least free-trade absolutists will say "yes, a couple areas of the economy will lose jobs, but overall it will be a net benefit in jobs and prices." Even if you disagree with the policy or whether there will be a net benefit, at least the tradeoffs are usually acknowledged.

The CBO in 2019 estimated the theoretical effects of a federal minimum wage increase under three scenarios: increases per hour to $10, $12 and $15 by 2025. Under the $15 scenario, in 2025 up to 27 million workers could see increases to their average weekly earnings while 3.7 million workers could lose employment. The latter statistic, in CBO's estimation would rise over time in any wage increase scenario as capital allocation replaces some workers. Wage increases would be heavily skewed (40%) towards those already earning above the minimum wage with more than 80% of benefits accruing to more educated workers living above the poverty line (Table 5). The number of persons in poverty would be reduced by 1.3 million (assuming no tax implications from increased income). The CBO notes that it does not consider the inflationary effects of these policies when estimating the change in poverty level as these estimates, while increasing inflation, are uncertain. Additionally, the CBO assumed that the weight of benefits would accrue to those below the poverty level based on historical wage increase levels. They noted that data on the minimum wage tends to assume the opposite (that benefits accrue to those above the poverty level), but that that data was not definitive enough to allow for estimation in their work. Some aspects of the CBO study are summarized in the table below.[121]

So, yes there would likely be workers who lost permanent employment, but it would result in a net of 1.3 million coming out of poverty (I'm assuming that the 1.3 net number includes the 3.7 who would lose their jobs).

My guess is that a significant number of those 3.7 would move back into the home to take care of their families as their spouses / significant others started making significantly more. There are certainly benefits and drawbacks to any minimum wage increase and the effects are incredibly hard to predict, but we've seen increases of 50-70+ % in the past and it didn't have a significant effect on increasing unemployment. Several states where we've seen minimum wage increases have actually seen higher job growth than the national average.

 

[aTUfan]

Every employee is worth minimum wage as it's the minimum that a person's time is worth. If you are exchanging your time (as well as your effort) for the benefit of someone else's business then they should pay you, at a minimum, a rate that would sustain your continued existence. If there is no floor to what someone might charge then they are able to take advantage of their workers to the point that their workers might have to work multiple jobs just to have shelter and sustenance. Even medieval serfs had a better deal than that. They didn't typically have to work a night shift just to keep themselves alive with shelter and a meager amount of food.

No! Some employees are not worth it.

 

[aTUfan]

Increase mw to $15. Now the employee making $13 must make $19. $17 goes to 22...

Payroll goes up;
something must give.
Fewer hours, fewer benefits, higher prices, fewer employees.

Companies are not like the government which spends more than it takes in.

 

[Gold*]

 

[URedskin54]

The CBO in 2019 estimated the theoretical effects of a federal minimum wage increase under three scenarios: increases per hour to $10, $12 and $15 by 2025. Under the $15 scenario, in 2025 up to 27 million workers could see increases to their average weekly earnings while 3.7 million workers could lose employment. The latter statistic, in CBO's estimation would rise over time in any wage increase scenario as capital allocation replaces some workers. Wage increases would be heavily skewed (40%) towards those already earning above the minimum wage with more than 80% of benefits accruing to more educated workers living above the poverty line (Table 5). The number of persons in poverty would be reduced by 1.3 million (assuming no tax implications from increased income). The CBO notes that it does not consider the inflationary effects of these policies when estimating the change in poverty level as these estimates, while increasing inflation, are uncertain. Additionally, the CBO assumed that the weight of benefits would accrue to those below the poverty level based on historical wage increase levels. They noted that data on the minimum wage tends to assume the opposite (that benefits accrue to those above the poverty level), but that that data was not definitive enough to allow for estimation in their work. Some aspects of the CBO study are summarized in the table below.[121]

So, yes there would likely be workers who lost permanent employment, but it would result in a net of 1.3 million coming out of poverty (I'm assuming that the 1.3 net number includes the 3.7 who would lose their jobs).

My guess is that a significant number of those 3.7 would move back into the home to take care of their families as their spouses / significant others started making significantly more. There are certainly benefits and drawbacks to any minimum wage increase and the effects are incredibly hard to predict, but we've seen increases of 50-70+ % in the past and it didn't have a significant effect on increasing unemployment. Several states where we've seen minimum wage increases have actually seen higher job growth than the national average.

I appreciate your acknowledgement of the tradeoffs. Proponents usually won't. It's not so much the amount of increase in the minimum wage, it's the amount it is increased above market wages in true low margin industries. There are probably places where you could raise it a lot without much impact, large metros especially. I'd be interested in how this projection looks during a post-covid recovery and if they considered how it would hasten automation in low-skilled labor.

 

[aTUfan]

Wow $15.00 an hour; and you don't have to know anything, you don't have to be reliably, learn anything, or produce anything? Just show up and breath.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Yeah... that one I’m not a huge fan of. I would increase it about 50% to somewhere around 11-12. (Much like it was increased about that much from 5 to 7 back in 07(?) (under a Republican President)

I'll go with $10-11. Why don't we just meet in the middle at $11. That keeps it a little high for right now, that won't be high very long. Then the businesses will be a little upset, and the employees will be a little upset. Good compromise.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Biden talking about the recent struggles of small businesses and in the next sentence proposing a $15 uniform minimum wage is one of the most disingenuous things I’ve ever heard...and after Trump that’s saying something.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Increase mw to $15. Now the employee making $13 must make $19. $17 goes to 22...

Payroll goes up;
something must give.
Fewer hours, fewer benefits, higher prices, fewer employees.

Companies are not like the government which spends more than it takes in.

That's why everytone one on here is agreeing $15 is too high idjet.(idiot mental midget)

 

[Gold*]

Wow $15.00 an hour; and you don't have to know anything, you don't have to be reliably, learn anything, or produce anything? Just show up and breath.

I take it you haven’t ever made $15 an hour.

 

[astonmartin708]

One thing that I wouldn't mind which might come out of it is a bit higher inflation (granted no one wants hyper inflation or stagflation) but seeing higher interest rates would be nice as someone who has a house at a low(ish) interest rate already. It would be nice to have some investment opportunities that were more viable for growth rather than just the volatile stock market.

 

[astonmartin708]

I'll go with $10-11. Why don't we just meet in the middle at $11. That keeps it a little high for right now, that won't be high very long. Then the businesses will be a little upset, and the employees will be a little upset. Good compromise.

This is basically what I see happening in congress in a few weeks / months. Manchin or some other moderate / Dem up for re-election will be pressured by McConnell to drop their asking price and with such a slim majority in Congress Dems will cave to a certain degree. There's little disagreement that it's time for the minimum wage to move. It's been over a decade since it last did and obviously the cost of living has changed since then. The question is just going to be how much.

Dems will point to any increase as a win and Pubs will get to save face by saying they did a good job for being in the majority and 'at least it wasn't $15'.

 

[aTUfan]

I take it you haven’t ever made $15 an hour.

I started working at the bottom while I was in college. I mowed yards before that.

 

[astonmartin708]

This is basically what I see happening in congress in a few weeks / months. Manchin or some other moderate / Dem up for re-election will be pressured by McConnell to drop their asking price and with such a slim majority in Congress Dems will cave to a certain degree. There's little disagreement that it's time for the minimum wage to move. It's been over a decade since it last did and obviously the cost of living has changed since then. The question is just going to be how much.

Dems will point to any increase as a win and Pubs will get to save face by saying they did a good job for being in the majority and 'at least it wasn't $15'.

how much did you make at your first job(s)?

 

[aTUfan]

I think about $5 a yard that i split with my buddy.

And mw than was probably $ 1.50

 

[astonmartin708]

I think about $5 a yard that i split with my buddy.

And mw than was probably $ 1.50

Cool. So you were making over minimum wage. You should see how much they’re charging for lawn services these days... it’s probably close to $20/hr. Adults pushed kids out of that market though.

 

[noble cane]

Interesting that the Democrats only think people are worth $31,200 per year.

If they really wanted to boost people out of poverty, why dont they mandate a $200,000 flat wage for everyone?

Burger flipper.. you get $200k
Lawyer.. you get $200k
CEO.. you get $200k

Anything you make over that belongs to the govt..

So simple.

 

[TU_BLA]

This is what I was talking about. Fluffy language while dancing around the specifics of how raising the minimum wage significantly above the equilibrium in a given area will somehow not result in significant job losses. Pretending the consequences don't exist does not make those consequences go away. At least free-trade absolutists will say "yes, a couple areas of the economy will lose jobs, but overall it will be a net benefit in jobs and prices." Even if you disagree with the policy or whether there will be a net benefit, at least the tradeoffs are usually acknowledged.

I appreciate your acknowledgement of the tradeoffs. Proponents usually won't. It's not so much the amount of increase in the minimum wage, it's the amount it is increased above market wages in true low margin industries. There are probably places where you could raise it a lot without much impact, large metros especially. I'd be interested in how this projection looks during a post-covid recovery and if they considered how it would hasten automation in low-skilled labor.

But the tradeoffs always affect the wage workers who actually make the company worth something. The tradeoff never comes at the expense of a CEO making $20M per year and that get a $10M bonus per year (or more for larger companies) OR at the expense of shareholders who literally do nothing to towards the production and profitability of the company. Places like Wal Mart, McDonald's, etc. who don't pay $15/hr certainly can afford to without needing to increase the cost of products but would oppose it because it cuts into the Walton family's lavish lifestyle by 1%. Granted there will be some small businesses that this would suck for...maybe there's a compromise on that end. Maybe also look into not raising it to $15 for kids who still live under mom and dad's roof or for Federal WS students ($15 would gut the budget of universities. When minimum wage rose to it's current level ($7.25), the number of hours a student could work per week was reduced to 12 from 15/16. Student's get a whole number of dollars as their award. 80% of FWS money is provided by the Fed Gov't while schools pay the other 20%.

Someone did the math....$15/hr at 40 hrs per week comes to roughly $31k per year BEFORE TAXES. The reason there are so many people in poverty and going hungry right now is $31k barely covers rent, utilities, and food in most cities around the country. On the coasts, $31k qualifies you for welfare and food stamps and you may still be homeless.

Maybe there is a simpler way to do it and not hit companies all at once moving forward. Get it to a respectable level over the next 7 years and then tie the minimum wage to the avg. rate of inflation for the previous 5 years. Companies can prepare for it, it moves with the avg. rise in costs.

And TUFan...you don't get the choice in telling some people there jobs are worth the $15/hr they make or not.

 

[TU_BLA]

Interesting that the Democrats only think people are worth $31,200 per year.

If they really wanted to boost people out of poverty, why dont they mandate a $200,000 flat wage for everyone?

Burger flipper.. you get $200k
Lawyer.. you get $200k
CEO.. you get $200k

Anything you make over that belongs to the govt..

So simple.

Think about it..the burger flipper is actually doing more work and working harder than the CEO at McDs. One makes $300/wk, the other makes $3,000 an hour. And let's not talk about the other benefits the CEO gets for sitting behind a plush desk while the other is literally coated in grease at the end of his shift and gets nothing..

So if $15 is not an option, maybe we look at UBI for everyone to cover basic living expenses plus universal healthcare...and it can work

 

[astonmartin708]

Interesting that the Democrats only think people are worth $31,200 per year.

If they really wanted to boost people out of poverty, why dont they mandate a $200,000 flat wage for everyone?

Burger flipper.. you get $200k
Lawyer.. you get $200k
CEO.. you get $200k

Anything you make over that belongs to the govt..

So simple.

Lol there is certainly something to be said for acquired skill, effort, and god given talent. But those things should be considered above and beyond the basic worth of a persons time and minimal efforts to help you when they could be doing other things. (Even if they’re just holding the door open for you as you move walk in and out of the house everyday)

 

[astonmartin708]

I look at it like this... if you are worse off being a minimum wage worker in the US than would have been a person who did a task that required very little skill in the dark ages for some lord or baron, then the system is flawed. At least in the case if you were the guy who hauled water from the well to the site where the masons were creating the mortar to make the bricks to build a castle you were still afforded some modicum of food and shelter to sustain you. It took no skill, talent, and relatively little effort on a day to day basis.

 

[rivalcane]

Think about it..the burger flipper is actually doing more work and working harder than the CEO at McDs. One makes $300/wk, the other makes $3,000 an hour. And let's not talk about the other benefits the CEO gets for sitting behind a plush desk while the other is literally coated in grease at the end of his shift and gets nothing..

So if $15 is not an option, maybe we look at UBI for everyone to cover basic living expenses plus universal healthcare...and it can work

the ceo is responsible for a Billion dollar company. The flipper is responsible for $0.50 of burger meat.

 

[lawpoke87]

Think about it..the burger flipper is actually doing more work and working harder than the CEO at McDs. One makes $300/wk, the other makes $3,000 an hour. And let's not talk about the other benefits the CEO gets for sitting behind a plush desk while the other is literally coated in grease at the end of his shift and gets nothing..

So if $15 is not an option, maybe we look at UBI for everyone to cover basic living expenses plus universal healthcare...and it can work

I can assure you the burger flipper isn’t doing more work than the CEO. That CEO is likely working 60 plus hours a week and dealing with work stress few of us can imagine. Have you ever been a CEO of a company ? I’ve done both and I can assure you the work load, responsibility, stress, etc.. aren’t remotely the same.

 

[astonmartin708]

the ceo is responsible for a Billion dollar company. The flipper is responsible for $0.50 of burger meat.

With no burger flippers there is no billion dollar company, and the skills involved in making a decision for the company aren’t as hard as they are made out to be at least after a certain point when you have accountants, Operations managers, etc... running the day to day of the company and your biggest task is grand strategy. Yes, there are higher stakes to your decisions, but in many of these cases it doesn’t actually matter to the CEO’s earnings ability if they are good or bad at selecting the correct grand strategy for the company... if they’re bad at their job they still get paid... just like if the burger flipper ruins your hamburger he still gets paid. The only difference is what caste they’ve been accepted into.

 

[noble cane]

I didnt realize that so many of the democrats on here considered themselves to be worth more than the people that prepare their food.. or get their coffee.

 

[lawpoke87]

With no burger flippers there is no billion dollar company, and the skills involved in making a decision for the company aren’t as hard as they are made out to be at least after a certain point when you have accountants, Operations managers, etc... running the day to day of the company and your biggest task is grand strategy.

Uggg. Have you ever ran a company? CEO’s are responsible for every facet of their operation. Most rarely have days off. Running a successful company is one of the hardest things an individual will ever do. Which is why so many businesses fail. It takes a combination of intelligence, analytical ability and people and marketing skills. I love when non business people try to diminish what those who run companies do through. I’ve done it all. Yard work, construction, union worker, flipping burgers, CPA, lawyer, etc...and running a small business and managing 25 employees is by far the hardest of the lot. I am never off work. Large co CEOs work on average over 60 hours a week. Hard stressful and long work for which they are highly compensated.

 

[URedskin54]

But the tradeoffs always affect the wage workers who actually make the company worth something. The tradeoff never comes at the expense of a CEO making $20M per year and that get a $10M bonus per year (or more for larger companies) OR at the expense of shareholders who literally do nothing to towards the production and profitability of the company. Places like Wal Mart, McDonald's, etc. who don't pay $15/hr certainly can afford to without needing to increase the cost of products but would oppose it because it cuts into the Walton family's lavish lifestyle by 1%.

Not actually true. As I've said many times Walmart's margins are thin (it's kind of what they're known for) and when they attempted to institute a $10 wage across the board on their own a few years back it didn't pan out and in the end they had to layoff a bunch of people. Because of Walmart's size their numbers look big, but what really matters is the %. Walmart is always barely profitable. Plus they have more than a million employees. You could make all of their executives' salaries zero and give all the money to the other workers and it would barely make a difference.

Now in the event of a national minimum wage hike Walmart might not fare so badly. They might even be in favor. I just take issue with the notion that they have room right now to hike wages on their own or that their executive pay is relevant.

 

[TU_BLA]

I can assure you the burger flipper isn’t doing more work than the CEO. That CEO is likely working 60 plus hours a week and dealing with work stress few of us can imagine. Have you ever been a CEO of a company ? I’ve done both and I can assure you the work load, responsibility, stress, etc.. aren’t remotely the same.

I'm talking companies like Wal Mart, McDs and other global companies. The CEOs at those companies do relatively little day to day to contribute to the success of the company day to day. The CEOs previously, before they served billions and billions and before Wal Mart created Supercenters probably did do plenty to get those companies to where they are now. Hell, McDs is basically on autopilot right now. What does the CEO actually do these days?

Again, I'm not talking small business or even growing businesses. I get that the CEOs in those environments have much more influence and impact on the day to day operation. One of my son's teammates' dad is CEO of a pipefitting and valve company branch here in Tulsa. We had a long discussion about a Biden presidency vs a Trump re-election and the impact of the rolling back of the Trump tax cut would have on his business. A lot of us see this with self-colored glasses on. It's important to see the other side. Many of us haven't experienced long periods of adult life where we were living paycheck to paycheck having to decide on whether to pay the electric bill or buy groceries. Or do we pay the student loan installment that's coming due? The challenge should be to live on minimum wage for a year without dipping into savings or retirement because the truth is, someone on minimum wage right now likely does not have an IRA or savings to dip into. Could we do it? Maybe. Life would suck for that year. BTW, our teachers are grossly underpaid as well, across the country. They should make a minimum of double what most of them do. Just goes to show you that society does not value education across the board.

 

[astonmartin708]

Uggg. Have you ever ran a company? CEO’s are responsible for every facet of their operation. Most rarely have days off. Running a successful company is one of the hardest things an individual will ever do. Which is why so many businesses fail. It takes a combination of intelligence, analytical ability and people and marketing skills. I love when non business people try to diminish what those who run companies do through. I’ve done it all. Yard work, construction, union worker, flipping burgers, CPA, lawyer, etc...and running a small business and managing 25 employees is by far the hardest of the lot. I am never off work. Large co CEOs work on average over 60 hours a week. Hard stressful and long work for which they are highly compensated.

STARTING a business is one of the hardest things you can do because you’re responsible for many different responsibilities within the company, as you hire more people, your job gets easier and easier. (I.E. The Huck Finn fence whitewashing example)

At a certain point (typically when you start transitioning from LLC to stock issuing corporation) you retain less and less responsible for looking into the minutia of the finances, or controlling the day to day operations. At a farther point, you don’t even maintain the know-how to accomplish they tasks that your previously hired employees have accomplished for you. You might have run the books when your business started, but as it grew they became too complex for any one person to do. You act like putting 60 hours+ is abnormal for employees... it’s not. I can tell you that many salaried employees put in just as much (if not more) time and effort into their jobs as a ceo does. Hourly employees who are really gunning for overtime will occasionally put in even more than the salaries employees. Yes, for a small business, there are certainly higher stakes for the owner(s) but for a Fortune 500 level CEO, the stakes are incredibly low. If they tank the company they still get paid and they’re likely to get another high paying gig, plus they’re not personally liable for the corporation as the losses are transferred to shareholders / Lien holders.

We’re talking about two different entities here. I would agree that an LLC is hard to run... but it might theoretically have a benefit to employees that the revenues are more evenly spread amongst the employees and the owner. C/S corporations aren’t nearly as hard to oversee because you begin to have teams of folks doing your job for you and your decision is just to steer the ship... but you get paid even if the ship sinks, it loses all of its cargo, and half the crew perish in the accident.

Any job you can do whilst often simultaneously driving a golf cart around a course and drinking a mixed drink isn’t incredibly laborious. Not saying the good ones aren’t incredibly talented or smart... just that they don’t necessarily work harder than their other employees nor are they necessarily smarter or more talented than their employees. They just got lucky during their lifetimes to be a) born into a prime situation, or b) been in the right places at the right time and we’re lucky enough to be presented with the right opportunities that they might get their positions.

 

[lawpoke87]

I'm talking companies like Wal Mart, McDs and other global companies. The CEOs at those companies do relatively little day to day to contribute to the success of the company day to day. The CEOs previously, before they served billions and billions and before Wal Mart created Supercenters probably did do plenty to get those companies to where they are now. Hell, McDs is basically on autopilot right now. What does the CEO actually do these days?

Again, I'm not talking small business or even growing businesses. I get that the CEOs in those environments have much more influence and impact on the day to day operation. One of my son's teammates' dad is CEO of a pipefitting and valve company branch here in Tulsa. We had a long discussion about a Biden presidency vs a Trump re-election and the impact of the rolling back of the Trump tax cut would have on his business. A lot of us see this with self-colored glasses on. It's important to see the other side. Many of us haven't experienced long periods of adult life where we were living paycheck to paycheck having to decide on whether to pay the electric bill or buy groceries. Or do we pay the student loan installment that's coming due? The challenge should be to live on minimum wage for a year without dipping into savings or retirement because the truth is, someone on minimum wage right now likely does not have an IRA or savings to dip into. Could we do it? Maybe. Life would suck for that year. BTW, our teachers are grossly underpaid as well, across the country. They should make a minimum of double what most of them do. Just goes to show you that society does not value education across the board.

Yeah...I have no clue what the CEO of McDonalds does day to day and likely never will. I do agree about perspective. Which is one reason I prefer to focus on the hundreds of people out there struggling to run their businesses rather than the CEO of McDonalds. Keep in mind that most of us who started and are running our own shops are quite familiar with living paycheck to paycheck. Risking everything you have for a dream. Working 80 hours a week and still struggling to make ends meat. I wouldn’t trade it for anything but I would hope people understand the sacrifices, risks, and hard financial times most business owners make. Probably why I get over annoyed by posters who say it’s easy or our workload is less than a burger flipper

Small business owners who take their companies public represent less than 1% of those owners. Not sure (other than it’s what this board does) why we focus on the 1% instead of the 99%.

 

[astonmartin708]

I'm talking companies like Wal Mart, McDs and other global companies. The CEOs at those companies do relatively little day to day to contribute to the success of the company day to day. The CEOs previously, before they served billions and billions and before Wal Mart created Supercenters probably did do plenty to get those companies to where they are now. Hell, McDs is basically on autopilot right now. What does the CEO actually do these days?

Again, I'm not talking small business or even growing businesses. I get that the CEOs in those environments have much more influence and impact on the day to day operation. One of my son's teammates' dad is CEO of a pipefitting and valve company branch here in Tulsa. We had a long discussion about a Biden presidency vs a Trump re-election and the impact of the rolling back of the Trump tax cut would have on his business. A lot of us see this with self-colored glasses on. It's important to see the other side. Many of us haven't experienced long periods of adult life where we were living paycheck to paycheck having to decide on whether to pay the electric bill or buy groceries. Or do we pay the student loan installment that's coming due? The challenge should be to live on minimum wage for a year without dipping into savings or retirement because the truth is, someone on minimum wage right now likely does not have an IRA or savings to dip into. Could we do it? Maybe. Life would suck for that year. BTW, our teachers are grossly underpaid as well, across the country. They should make a minimum of double what most of them do. Just goes to show you that society does not value education across the board.

 

[astonmartin708]

Yeah...I have no clue what the CEO of McDonalds does day to day and likely never will. I do agree about perspective. Which is one reason I prefer to focus on the hundreds of people out there struggling to run their businesses rather than the CEO of McDonalds. Keep in mind that most of us who started and are running our own shops are quite familiar with living paycheck to paycheck. Risking everything you have for a dream. Working 80 hours a week and still struggling to make ends meat. I wouldn’t trade it for anything but I would hope people understand the sacrifices, risks, and hard financial times most business owners make. Probably why I get over annoyed by posters who say it’s easy or our workload is less than a burger flipper

Small business owners who take their companies public represent less than 1% of those owners. Not sure (other than it’s what this board does) why we focus on the 1% instead of the 99%.

We focus on the 1% because something like 84% of people work for a company with more than 20 employees. ~67% work for companies with more than 100 employees (which is typically closing in on the level that a company goes from LLC to corporation) 47% work for companies with more than 500 people. Small businesses are an important piece of the pie in America, but they are by no means close to the largest piece of the pie.

 

[URedskin54]

FWIW, prior to my current job the highest paying job I ever had was $15/hr as a GA at TU. Outside of that it was $5.15, $5.50, $7.00, $6.45, $11.89, and $12.00 with $18.00 for overtime. Don't even want to try to come up with the hourly rate for Army work 😝. $15 felt amazing in terms of breathing room on rent compared to anything I had before.

 

[lawpoke87]

We focus on the 1% because something like 84% of people work for a company with more than 20 employees. ~67% work for companies with more than 100 employees (which is typically closing in on the level that a company goes from LLC to corporation) 47% work for companies with more than 500 people. Small businesses are an important piece of the pie in America, but they are by no means close to the largest piece of the pie.

I assume you’re talking about public corporations and not simply corporations? There are very few differences between an LLC and an S Corp or even a C Corp other than the minimum number of shareholders. My legal entity is an LLC but I’m taxed as a Corp for example.

 

[astonmartin708]

I made over close to or over 15 in most of my jobs since I turned 18 except work study at TU... but we got a ton of free food at TU work study so it balanced out. Prior to that I made right around minimum as a high school kid... by the time you paid for gas to get to work you were really only making 2-3 hours worth of wages in HS unless it was a weekend.

 

[astonmartin708]

I assume you’re talking about public corporations and not simply corporations? There are very few differences between an LLC and an S Corp or even a C Corp other than the minimum number of shareholders. My legal entity is an LLC but I’m taxed as a Corp for example.

I’m not talking as much about tax implications as I am where the liability falls in the case of a failure. When it’s spread out among shareholder’s / lien holders and not just the CEO it’s not nearly as much of a hit as if you are the Co’s founder who put everything into it. Especially when considering things like buyouts, golden parachutes, etc...

 

[lawpoke87]

I’m not talking as much about tax implications as I am where the liability falls in the case of a failure. When it’s spread out among shareholder’s / lien holders and not just the CEO it’s not nearly as much of a hit as if you are the Co’s founder who put everything into it. Especially when considering things like buyouts, golden parachutes, etc...

Gotcha. Which does lead me back to the fact there are 100 business owners who will lose it all if their business fails to every one fat cat CEO with the parachute. I obviously don’t run in those circles and my only knowledge of that life if from what I read.

Obviously if the burger flipper does a bad job he gets fired and moves on to the next burger. If I do a bad job I lose everything I have along with 25 people losing their jobs. There are many days where I long for those burger flipping times.

 

[04Watu]

Here's a measure of how the workforce has been left out of much of the economy's growth.

"From 1978 to 2018, CEO compensation grew by 1,007.5% (940.3% under the options-realized measure), far outstripping S&P stock market growth (706.7%) and the wage growth of very high earners (339.2%). In contrast, wages for the typical worker grew by just 11.9%."

This helps explains how wealth has become consolidated at the top and the workforce feels angry and betrayed by the system. Add in a decrease in unions, loss of jobs overseas, the changing mix from manufacturing to lower paid service industries, and the skyrocketing costs of healthcare and education, and the depth of anger with our economic system and the government in charge of it makes sense.

Moving the minimum wage up a few bucks is not going to fix this.

 

[astonmartin708]

Gotcha. Which does lead me back to the fact there are 100 business owners who will lose it all if their business fails to every one fat cat CEO with the parachute. I obviously don’t run in those circles and my only knowledge of that life if from what I read.

Obviously if the burger flipper does a bad job he gets fired and moves on to the next burger. If I do a bad job I lose everything I have along with 25 people losing their jobs. There are many days where I long for those burger flipping times.

You’re right. If you make a bad mistake.... you might have to go back to... flipping burgers... where you’ll be underpaid and have no savings since you lost it with the company. I could see why that keeps you up at night... I sure wouldn’t want to do it again... if only they would pay the burger flippers a wage that didn’t mean destitution. Maybe you wouldn’t be so worried about making a mistake. Maybe more people would try out small businesses if they didn’t mean such dire consequences for failure. Or maybe more small businesses would be able to innovate to try and keep up with their competition.

 

[lawpoke87]

Here's a measure of how the workforce has been left out of much of the economy's growth.

"From 1978 to 2018, CEO compensation grew by 1,007.5% (940.3% under the options-realized measure), far outstripping S&P stock market growth (706.7%) and the wage growth of very high earners (339.2%). In contrast, wages for the typical worker grew by just 11.9%."

This helps explains how wealth has become consolidated at the top and the workforce feels angry and betrayed by the system. Add in a decrease in unions, loss of jobs overseas, the changing mix from manufacturing to lower paid service industries, and the skyrocketing costs of healthcare and education, and the depth of anger with our economic system and the government in charge of it make sense.

Moving the minimum wage up a few bucks is not going to fix this.

We don’t typically agree on much but you’re spot on here.