Who do you trust?

[Gmoney4WW]

The problem with this virus, is it is a health care problem that requires a more socialistic bent to resolve, as in everybody sharing the responsibility for battling it. That's why the Democratic party does better at this. They are more inclined towards socialism, not as a form of government, but as an aspect of capitalism. I'm not talking about the present day state of the party, but the party as a whole, over the past century. That goes for spending the money to battle it, whether it is with money for a vaccine, or money for treatment, or money to get the people through shutdowns, etc. But it also goes for simply getting each individual to invest in a mask, and to wear it. There is a reason countries with a more socialist government, or a more socialist tendency have succeeded much better at battling this than the rest of the world.

Yes there are aspects that one party is good at, and another is not. The republican party is most definitely better at economic aspects of the country as a whole.

For the longest time the Democrats and Republicans have been the Yin and Yang of our country operating in a way that worked towards the benefit of the peoples of this country as a whole. The Republicans have always reigned in Democrats spending on social institutions/programs. But at the same time the Democrats have been successfully pushing at the least, a modicum of spending on those social programs.

It has always worked well to have each party pushing and pulling. It is not just our rights that have made us a success as a country. Those social programs have helped this country serve it's people as well as the protection of the rights we all have.

The solution today is not to get rid of one party or the other, even though large sects of each parties voters would do so if given the power. Both parties have kept the American Dream as a shining beacon to the world. Neither one would have succeeded on it's own, if the nation had been drawn over fully to one of them, and the other party faded from existence. This country would not have been a better country if that had been the case. If the Democrats had operated on their own, this country would have gone broke a long time ago. If the Republicans had been the only party, there probably would have been a rebellion by the lower classes a long time back.

Now that they have been drawn so far to the left and right, it will test our system to keep it whole. I still have faith in those institutions, despite how far apart they have swung. I realize I am speaking in generalities & it is not all as black & white as I have professed it as being. But I am speaking on a macro, macro level here, and generalities get the valid point across much easier in this instance.(Yes, intended to say macro, macro.)

I started talking on one subject, and meandered to another one unintentionally, but I think to two topics are complimentary to each other. So I will leave them together in a single post.

 

[Weatherdemon]

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/p0714-americans-to-wear-masks.html

The original two studies they referred to did not support the findings that masks are effective in preventing the spread of any virus. The studies were reviewed upon the request of Fauci and Subsequently changed. These are only two studies out of literary hundreds that were available in the CDC library. Various gov agencies use this library to conduct research on the capabilities of terrorist or nation States to use biological weapons as tools of weapons of mass destruction and war game how it could happen

Is the article gone? I don't see anything saying masks don't help.

You can look at face coverings in a few ways.
1) Viruses are too small to be caught by cloth or most face coverings thus in effective.
2) COVID-19 is transported in water droplets which can be impacted by a face covering. While it doesn't stop all droplets, it limits the distance they can travel.
3) The masks that can help are medical N95 masks but, they still let through 5% of particulates so are they really safe?


I have to ask again, how is this global pandemic involve so many US based conspiracy theories against the American public?
And, why is that 90% of those people promoting the theories are republicans?
This isn't just a US pandemic. Our leadership as just managed it the worst way possible.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

People have worn masks in China and all over Asia for over a decade now yet that accomplished nothing in regards to stopping the spread of the virus or overwhelming the system. On a separate note, over 90% of people who have died worldwide from the virus had an underlying health issue. The chance of you getting the virus and dying from the virus is slim to none (2%). When does it end? Fauci and Gates have stated multiple times that this lockdown and mask wearing may never go away. Is it logical to wear mask forever? One day I will leave this body but it won’t be because I lived my life in fear. The human species has overcome far more over millions of years and we will overcome this too. Survival of the fittest. Mind, body, and soul!

I am not protecting myself, I am protecting friends and relatives who have underlying health issues and/or are older. Survival of the fittest is not a good attitude for those people(and there are many) who are not as healthy.

We won't have to wear masks forever. They will produce a vaccine that will cut the problem down. Those who are older will continue to find ways to protect themselves against it.(better masks, better treatments, herd immunity) Eventually in the next year or two, it will be no more of a threat than the flu.

Side note: How do you now that the masks in china did nothing to help slow it down. There is no proof of that.

 

[shon46]

Is the article gone? I don't see anything saying masks don't help.

You can look at face coverings in a few ways.
1) Viruses are too small to be caught by cloth or most face coverings thus in effective.
2) COVID-19 is transported in water droplets which can be impacted by a face covering. While it doesn't stop all droplets, it limits the distance they can travel.
3) The masks that can help are medical N95 masks but, they still let through 5% of particulates so are they really safe?


I have to ask again, how is this global pandemic involve so many US based conspiracy theories against the American public?
And, why is that 90% of those people promoting the theories are republicans?
This isn't just a US pandemic. Our leadership as just managed it the worst way possible.

The two initial reports that didn’t support the findings Were changed exactly as I said they were. I live in Europe where millions of people are marching and have been marching to end the lockdown and wearing masks. The US is far from being alone in not trusting the government.

 

[shon46]

I am not protecting myself, I am protecting friends and relatives who have underlying health issues and/or are older. Survival of the fittest is not a good attitude for those people(and there are many) who are not as healthy.

We won't have to wear masks forever. They will produce a vaccine that will cut the problem down. Those who are older will continue to find ways to protect themselves against it.(better masks, better treatments, herd immunity) Eventually in the next year or two, it will be no more of a threat than the flu.

Side note: How do you now that the masks in china did nothing to help slow it down. There is no proof of that.

Mask are only mandatory in Wuhan. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/health/coronavirus-surgical-masks.html

 

[Gmoney4WW]

That article doesn't prove that masks are ineffective against the spread in China. It simply states that most of the tests are in the medical industry. Just because there isn't much testing outside the health industry doesn't prove or refute masks worn by the general public as being effective. Red Herring argument.

Who said there weren't people protesting in other countries. There are people who will protest no matter where they live.

 

[Weatherdemon]

That article doesn't prove that masks are ineffective against the spread in China. It simply states that most of the tests are in the medical industry. Just because there isn't much testing outside the health industry doesn't prove or refute masks worn by the general public as being effective. Red Herring argument.

Yea, that doesn't work to validate that studies say masks don't work.

Granted, SOOOO many people don't wear them right but, properly used, they are beneficial in limiting the spread.

“The most important message was that the risk was lower if they consistently used any mask,” he said.

 

[shon46]

That article doesn't prove that masks are ineffective against the spread in China. It simply states that most of the tests are in the medical industry. Just because there isn't much testing outside the health industry doesn't prove or refute masks worn by the general public as being effective. Red Herring argument.

Who said there weren't people protesting in other countries. There are people who will protest no matter where they live.

The same scientist that created these articles didn’t just change their mind. They were overruled. Their voices were silenced like so many other front line doctors and nurses. In regards to your conspiracy theory comment, I think where you and I differ in opinion is that while death is regrettable, it is inevitable and especially if their are underlying health issues. America is the most unhealthy country in the world so it’s really no surprise And completely acceptable to me that so many unhealthy people have passed from this virus. The virus has forced people to change their unhealthy habits or die! Adapt or face extinction!

 

[TUMe]

Maybe sooner or maybe later there will be a treatment or vaccine for this virus. In the meantime, masks plus social distancing and hand washing are what we have to work with. Let's do that. There is no reason to refuse to use the tools we have. It shouldn't be R or D.

 

[TUMe]

"And completely acceptable to me that so many unhealthy people have passed from this virus. The virus has forced people to change their unhealthy habits or die! Adapt or face extinction!"

You are an ass.

 

[Bendman]

Yes, but the condition is not as severe. Sneezing or coughing causing the biggest threat in real life. You are looking for what will protect you. No one wants bullet proof vest that only protects against BB guns.

Asymptomatic people are likely the biggest virus spreaders. The virus is most contagious pre-symptoms and people who never show symptoms are tough to avoid. People coughing and sneezing can be avoided and perhaps even quarantined. People just walking around without symptoms or before the symptoms appear are likely the reason so many people are surprised they are infected.

 

[shon46]

Maybe sooner or maybe later there will be a treatment or vaccine for this virus. In the meantime, masks plus social distancing and hand washing are what we have to work with. Let's do that. There is no reason to refuse to use the tools we have. It should be R or D.

If I believed that this was only about the virus I would 1000% agree but just like 9/11, the tragedy brought a whole host of unintended or intended consequences that took our freedoms. This is happening as we speak and believe accepting the ridiculous rules set forth only ushers in the final phase of complete control.

 

[Bendman]

[QUOTE="Just because they do not stop it 100% is no reason for not wearing them. If we had all been wearing them religiously from the start, the virus would not have had as much success in replicating.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Current projections are that if everyone wore masks (they don't have to be N95 masks) that 67K lives would be saved in the next 6 months. That's more than all the deaths in the Viet Nam war and almost twice the number killed in auto accidents...and we have seat belt laws to keep auto deaths down to that number.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

If I believed that this was only about the virus I would 1000% agree but just like 9/11, the tragedy brought a whole host of unintended or intended consequences that took our freedoms. This is happening as we speak and believe accepting the ridiculous rules set forth only ushers in the final phase of complete control.

The threat of socialism to this country is no worse than paranoia like yours.

 

[shon46]

The threat of socialism to this country is no worse than paranoia like yours.

While I categorically condem their actions, If it were not for people like Julian Asange or Snowden, you would have no clue about what was going on. Im not asking you to embrace what i believe or think. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions just like i have. As for me, i work in the belly of the beast and what you call paranoid is my reality every day.

 

[astonmartin708]

The threat of socialism to this country is no worse than paranoia like yours.

It's the Corollary to Godwins Law. "TUfan's Law of Socialism".

 

[Gmoney4WW]

While I categorically condem their actions, If it were not for people like Julian Asange or Snowden, you would have no clue about what was going on. Im not asking you to embrace what i believe or think. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions just like i have. As for me, i work in the belly of the beast and what you call paranoid is my reality every day.

Being in the belly of the beast may be the reason for your paranoia. Knowing about all the possible threats that don't necessarily happen, can bring about paranoia.

 

[Clong83a]

We still have a ways to go to catch Italy who has one death for every 1,714 people. USA currently has one death for every 2,037. The USA has been counting Covid deaths if you had Covid when you died and not necessarily the direct cause of death. Not sure of Italy’s policy.

Our failure has been in the nursing homes. Sending Covid positive patients to those places was obviously the most glaring mistake. We still need to do better in creating bubbles for those facilities.

At this point, 1 in 300 people have died from COVID in McKinley County, New Mexico. That is pretty close to the general death rate from all causes for a 6 month period pre-COVID. Stop downplaying the severity of this disease.

Bolded text is hogwash. If I die from blunt force trauma in a car accident and I had COVID, as a matter of policy, I don't count as a COVID death. Nowhere. Maybe you can find some crazy rogue doctor somewhere that tried this for some crazy reason and you'll come back with some "Gotcha" but this does not and cannot explain 165,000+ deaths. It might explain a dozen or so.

If anything, deaths from COVID are very likely being undercounted due to not having had a positive test at the time of death, not over counted because ICU doctors with axes to grind in overcrowded units are declaring "COVID!" on all death certificates of people that categorically did not die of COVID complications. You are smart enough to not repeat this FUD.

 

[shon46]

Being in the belly of the beast may be the reason for your paranoia. Knowing about all the possible threats that don't necessarily happen, can bring about paranoia.

Ok

 

[Weatherdemon]

If I believed that this was only about the virus I would 1000% agree but just like 9/11, the tragedy brought a whole host of unintended or intended consequences that took our freedoms. This is happening as we speak and believe accepting the ridiculous rules set forth only ushers in the final phase of complete control.

So again, this is worldwide conspiracy to allow the US government to take total control of their people?

 

[shon46]

At this point, 1 in 300 people have died from COVID in McKinley County, New Mexico. That is pretty close to the general death rate from all causes for a 6 month period pre-COVID. Stop downplaying the severity of this disease.

Bolded text is hogwash. If I die from blunt force trauma in a car accident and I had COVID, as a matter of policy, I don't count as a COVID death. Nowhere. Maybe you can find some crazy rogue doctor somewhere that tried this for some crazy reason and you'll come back with some "Gotcha" but this does not and cannot explain 165,000+ deaths. It might explain a dozen or so.

If anything, deaths from COVID are very likely being undercounted due to not having had a positive test at the time of death, not over counted because ICU doctors with axes to grind in overcrowded units are declaring "COVID!" on all death certificates of people that categorically did not die of COVID complications. You are smart enough to not repeat this FUD.

How healthy or unhealthy were those people you speak about in New Mexico? How many had prior underlying health issues? The facts lean towards 9 out of 10 probably had issues before the virus. It may be bad in your area and for that I am sorry but there are billions of people who live in this planet who are un-effected in comparison to cancer.

 

[shon46]

So again, this is worldwide conspiracy to allow the US government to take total control of their people?

Not US, governments worldwide

 

[Weatherdemon]

Not US, governments worldwide

Oh, wow.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

So again, this is worldwide conspiracy to allow the US government to take total control of their people?

Not US, governments worldwide

Whatchu talkin' bout Willis, I'm not paranoid.

Yeah, the lizard people have a worldwide conspiracy to overthrow all governments in the world. If someone could only hear themselves saying these words...

 

[shon46]

Whatchu talkin' bout Willis, I'm not paranoid.

Yeah, the lizard people have a worldwide conspiracy to overthrow all governments in the world. If someone could only hear themselves saying these words...

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nephilim

 

[Clong83a]

How healthy or unhealthy were those people you speak about in New Mexico? How many had prior underlying health issues? The facts lean towards 9 out of 10 probably had issues before the virus. It may be bad in your area and for that I am sorry but there are billions of people who live in this planet who are un-effected in comparison to cancer.

We should ignore it until it kills as many people as cancer? That's the standard?

Cancer is the #2 killer in the US annually. COVID is on pace to be a somewhat distant third.

And define "underlying condition"? Because people, like you right now, are using this as a euphamism to imply "They had one foot in the grave already". For some, that is definitely true. But for most that is absolutely not the case. Almost any pre-existing but manageable condition will be considered "underlying conditions" if it causes complications and death from COVID. Rheumatoid arthritis. A congenital heart defect. A simultaneous battle with otherwise very survivable cancer. Someone who has previously had a heart attack. Obesity. I could go on.

Also, you imply that this disease is binary. That if you don't die, you will be just fine and thus there is no reason to worry. That is simply not true. People, even healthy young people, can get this disease, survive, but suffer from diminished lung capacity, strokes, or even neurological damage. Here's a bunch of peer-reviewed, scientific articles about the damage this can do to otherwise healthy people:

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-06/tju-clt060320.php (Young people suffering strokes)
EDIT: Sorry, I linked to the news blurb about the above article. Here is the actual scientific article: https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/91/8/846.abstract

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30228-5/fulltext (Half of survivors showing evidence of neurological damage 3 months after recovery)

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/2767979 (commonality of multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children)

I'm not going to debate this with you. It is a dangerous disease, period, and it should not be taken cavalierly. I am really only posting this so that if anybody out there is actually reading this, they don't see these dangerous 'opinions' go unchallenged. I won't discuss it with you further unless you show a willingness to read actual scientific literature and not rely on news pundits with an axe to grind for medical advice.

This is not partisan, and of all things, I never expected this to become partisan. And I am not even a Democrat and never have been, but I am a scientist. This is science, and this is a huge swath of people inexplicably sticking their heads in the sand and saying, "What do you eggheads know?! Dr. Fauci was wrong about masks in February, what a loser!!"

 

[shon46]

I speak from my personal experience. I had Corona in feb and it had no effect on me whatsoever. I only found out when a sich work colleague who had underlying health issues tested positive and was hospitalized. Just like the flu, some have severe symptoms and some have none. I dont get flu vaccinations nor will I get a vaccination for Covid.

 

[astonmartin708]

I speak from my personal experience. I had Corona in feb and it had no effect on me whatsoever. I only found out when a sich work colleague who had underlying health issues tested positive and was hospitalized. Just like the flu, some have severe symptoms and some have none. I dont get flu vaccinations nor will I get a vaccination for Covid.

Man that attitude could really bite you in the ass someday. "I wasn't wearing my seatbelt when I got in a 10 MPH fender bender and I was fine... so I'm just never going to wear one."

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I'm not going to debate this with you. It is a dangerous disease, period, and it should not be taken cavalierly. I am really only posting this so that if anybody out there is actually reading this, they don't see these dangerous 'opinions' go unchallenged. I won't discuss it with you further unless you show a willingness to read actual scientific literature and not rely on news pundits with an axe to grind for medical advice.

 

[Clong83a]

I speak from my personal experience. I had Corona in feb and it had no effect on me whatsoever. I only found out when a sich work colleague who had underlying health issues tested positive and was hospitalized. Just like the flu, some have severe symptoms and some have none. I dont get flu vaccinations nor will I get a vaccination for Covid.

I am glad you recovered with no ill effects. Truly.

But I just want you to consider that some people survive ebola without much issue, either... Really: https://www.passporthealthglobal.com/2017/02/asymptomatic-ebola-found-in-people-a-year-after-the-epidemic/

I'm not saying this is as deadly as ebola, but I do hope you see the error in your logic.

 

[shon46]

Man that attitude could really bite you in the ass someday. "I wasn't wearing my seatbelt when I got in a 10 MPH fender bender and I was fine... so I'm just never going to wear one."

When it’s my time to leave this body it will be because it’s my time. Disease doesn’t control my body, I control my body.

 

[astonmartin708]

I am glad you recovered with no ill effects. Truly.

But I just want you to consider that some people survive ebola without much issue, either... Really: https://www.passporthealthglobal.com/2017/02/asymptomatic-ebola-found-in-people-a-year-after-the-epidemic/

I'm not saying this is as deadly as ebola, but I do hope you see the error in your logic.

Some people were immune to the Black Plague too.... but that didn't mean that, if they had an immunization for it, as many people as possible shouldn't have been inoculated.

 

[shon46]

I am glad you recovered with no ill effects. Truly.

But I just want you to consider that some people survive ebola without much issue, either... Really: https://www.passporthealthglobal.com/2017/02/asymptomatic-ebola-found-in-people-a-year-after-the-epidemic/

I'm not saying this is as deadly as ebola, but I do hope you see the error in your logic.

My logic is only the strong survive! This has been and will always be the case!

 

[Gmoney4WW]

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nephilim

Trying to figure out if you were throwing this in there to be funny?

Or were serious as case of covid19?

If you were trying to be funny, then bravo!

 

[Gmoney4WW]

When it’s my time to leave this body it will be because it’s my time. Disease doesn’t control my body, I control my body.

So you don't go to the doctor?
Is that what you are saying?

You are not going to deal very well with getting old. Every man shrinks physically to a state of inferiority of his younger self. I doubt you carry that motto so willfully at 80, as you do now.

 

[shon46]

So you don't go to the doctor?
Is that what you are saying?

You are not going to deal very well with getting old. Every man shrinks physically to a state of inferiority of his younger self. I doubt you carry that motto so willfully at 80, as you do now.

If I have something that is bothering me than I go to the doctor. Eating right, working out, and staying healthy and balanced mentally, physically, and spiritually has always been the key to a long and healthy life.

 

[astonmartin708]

If I have something that is bothering me than I go to the doctor. Eating right, working out, and staying healthy and balanced mentally, physically, and spiritually has always been the key to a long and healthy life.

You know the actual key to a long healthy life? Modern Medicine. LMAO.

You act like people of past centuries at bon-bons all day, whilst sitting on their couches and taking the lord's name in vain.

No, they died from things like smallpox, diphtheria, tuberculosis, etc...

 

[Gmoney4WW]

If I have something that is bothering me than I go to the doctor. Eating right, working out, and staying healthy and balanced mentally, physically, and spiritually has always been the key to a long and healthy life.

I generally agree with you here. But my friend in France had a very physically fit body. He worked out, you never would of thought it, but he dropped dead of a heart attack at 50, five or six years ago. He was the last person I would have picked in my life to drop dead. Underlying conditions don't always come from not keeping in shape or eating right and they are not always known.

Quoting from Hurricane Alley,

And the reasons that more conferences are seriously considering the cancellation of the season altogether.

https://www.espn.com/college-footba...vid-19-fuels-power-5-concern-season-viability

 

[shon46]

I generally agree with you here. But my friend in France had a very physically fit body. He worked out, you never would of thought it, but he dropped dead of a heart attack at 50, three or four years ago. He was the last person I would have picked in my life to drop dead. Underlying conditions don't always come from not keeping in shape or eating right and they are not always known.

Quoting from Hurricane Alley,

Nobody knows when their time will come. All I’m saying is you do what you know will keep your body healthy and if it gives out, at least you tried to protect it the best way possible!

 

[Clong83a]

Nobody knows when their time will come. All I’m saying is you do what you know will keep your body healthy and if it gives out, at least you tried to protect it the best way possible!

On that, we can agree.