Ukraine….what’s our endgame here

[astonmartin708]

Since we’ve enslaved people in the past I’m pretty sure can support sentencing people to a lifetime of abuse and sexual slavery. Did I do this correctly ?

The exact opposite of my point. You cower when you are asked to participate in conflict for the right reasons but cheer when asked to participate for the wrong ones.

It shows both hypocrisy and a lack of integrity.

Also, it’s just a bit pathetic that people are willing to compromise their espoused ’values’ at the behest of a person as detestable as Putin. He called the US’s bluff and people like you are going to prove him right.

You only care about freedom when the cost is cheap and when it comes at the expense of someone who never attacked you or anyone who actually asked for your aid…. Or at least that’s the bet that Putin made about your lack of character.

 

[lawpoke87]

The exact opposite of my point. You cower when you are asked to participate in conflict for the right reasons but cheer when asked to participate for the wrong ones.

It shows both hypocrisy and a lack of integrity.

Also, it’s just a bit pathetic that people are willing to compromise their espoused ’values’ at the behest of a person as detestable as Putin. He called the US’s bluff and people like you are going to prove him right.

1). I was in support of moving military assets into the theater prior to the invasion in order to prevent exactly what we are seeing now. Instead, those that chose to “cower” in the beginning which resulted in the invasion are now “cowering” in refusing to allow sufficient resources into the conflict to end the same. Instead choosing mass loss of life to continue. We allowed Putin to invade practically uncontested and create defensive positions which Ukraine cannot breach without massive loss of life (and maybe not even then). That my friend is foolhardy and bad foreign policy. Might even add hypocritical as well. 500k dead and injured. That number will continue to rapidly grow given the current state of the battlefield as Ukraine continues to attack those fortified Russian positions. No end in sight. Ukraine can’t win under the current arms and support arrangements. There is zero integrity on our part here.

2). I was one of the few posters who opposed our involvement in Iraq from the outset. I’m also one of the few posters on this board who doesn’t care if it’s the actions of a Pub or Dem Admin. If said actions are wrong then I’m calling them out….like I’ve regularly done. That my friend is the definition of integrity.

I’ve been proven correct in both instances btw.

 

[TulsaRulzOSUdrools]

My favorite line of BS is that we need to leave and focus on China. Yes, showing Xi that we don't have the balls to see out a conflict against a great power is something to show about Taiwan and other places. What does focus even mean anyway? You don't even have to commit troops to Ukraine. You are just sending them ammo and old ass military equipment.

If we wanted to announce the end of this, NATO would tell Putin to get the **** out, or they would start massive amounts of air bombing in Ukraine. Sure, you lose some planes and pilots, but the Russian air force isn't all that big. It has been significantly degraded from plane losses, people, and inability to get parts.

 

[lawpoke87]

Putin is just hanging out until Ukraine runs out of soldiers. Seems to be working.

 

[drboobay]

Americans have the attention span of a housefly. Very difficult to get people to think in multigenerational strategic terms. But it is not a unique failing.

As much as I despised Hafez Al Assad for his brutality against the Christians of Lebanon I also admired his ability to think decades down the road. His son? Not so much.

 

[lawpoke87]

Fairly significant news when the WSJ reverses course.

 

[cmullinsTU]

Fairly significant news when the WSJ reverses course.

View embedded media

There is A LOT that I disagree with David Sacks on politically, but everything I've read from him on Ukraine has followed my line of thinking. I do wish he didn't frequently include blaming democrats and stuck to his perspective as I think that diminishes the strength of his point of view.

 

[lawpoke87]

There is A LOT that I disagree with David Sacks on politically, but everything I've read from him on Ukraine has followed my line of thinking. I do wish he didn't frequently include blaming democrats and stuck to his perspective as I think that diminishes the strength of his point of view.

Agree. Let’s leave politics out of the discussion and figure out a solution to this mess. We can discuss the policy and assess blame once we fix the current situation

 

[noble cane]

The exact opposite of my point. You cower when you are asked to participate in conflict for the right reasons but cheer when asked to participate for the wrong ones.

It shows both hypocrisy and a lack of integrity.

Also, it’s just a bit pathetic that people are willing to compromise their espoused ’values’ at the behest of a person as detestable as Putin. He called the US’s bluff and people like you are going to prove him right.

You only care about freedom when the cost is cheap and when it comes at the expense of someone who never attacked you or anyone who actually asked for your aid…. Or at least that’s the bet that Putin made about your lack of character.

Where was this concern for democracy and freedom when Obama let Putin take the Crimea from Ukraine?

 

[drboobay]

Where was this concern for democracy and freedom when Obama let Putin take the Crimea from Ukraine?

I hated that too.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Saw an 'article' the other day on CNN saying how the Ukrainian coverage of the war had all but disappeared after the Israel thing. I'm sitting there thinking you are largely responsible for this. You are one of the largest news networks out there, with an audience that is mostly pro Ukrainian. And you have published hardly an article a week on Ukraine since the Israel thing happened. That was your decision.

Don't you think your public can handle(and want) lesser coverage, but not non existent coverage. Talk about self fulfilling news reporting/prophecy.

 

[astonmartin708]

Saw an 'article' the other day on CNN saying how the Ukrainian coverage of the war had all but disappeared after the Israel thing. I'm sitting there thinking you are largely responsible for this. You are one of the largest news networks out there, with an audience that is mostly pro Ukrainian. And you have published hardly an article a week on Ukraine since the Israel thing happened. That was your decision.

Don't you think your public can handle(and want) lesser coverage, but not non existent coverage. Talk about self fulfilling news reporting/prophecy.

Almost as if it were exactly what the Russians wanted…..

 

[lawpoke87]

Almost as if it were exactly what the Russians wanted…..

I disagree with CNN’s assessment. There’s been a lot of reporting on the conflict in the last two weeks. Every large media outlet has ran multiple stories. The problem is the reporting has gone from “Russia is on the verge of collapse” to “the war is now a stalemate and Ukraine cannot win without a significant change in western support”.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I disagree with CNN’s assessment. There’s been a lot of reporting on the conflict in the last two weeks. Every large media outlet has ran multiple stories. The problem is the reporting has gone from “Russia is on the verge of collapse” to “the war is now a stalemate and Ukraine cannot win without a significant change in western support”.

Now they are running out of soldiers. A drastic conscription service will steal away their advantage from having a motivated force out there, that finds innovative ways to fight.

 

[noble cane]

Almost as if it were exactly what the Russians wanted…..

No one i talked to in the last 2 wks in Italy, Corsica and Spain really gave a crap about Ukraine or Israel. Corsica and Barcelona were more interested in independence from France and Spain. Italy was more concerned with migrants. And all of them wete convinced that Israel was committing genocide...

Mind you it was a non scientific poll conducted over espresso, pastries, wine, bistecca florentine, grappa, and cuban cigars... with an incredible margin for error...

 

[HuffyCane]

I’m not sure Spain is a representative population for where Europe is on support of Israel.

There’s a town named Jew Killers, Castrillo Mota de Judíos. And a festival around Easter in León celebrating the pogroms that exterminated the Jews that has been held annually for nearly 600 years. It draws tens of thousands of people and has its own signature drink of lemonade and red wine called Matar Judíos. A common toast is “ Salir a matar judíos" (Let’s go kill the Jews)

Agree they don’t consider Ukraine part of Europe and have no real desire to add them.

I was in Germany not long ago and most people in Western Europe seem most concerned that America can’t elect a suitable President and they might have to start paying for their own defense soon. Which has them worried because even random retirees on the street have begun to understand that their social welfare state is under threat due to low birth rates and migration costs. There’s no appetite for even token military spending so long as the Americans are around and though they are loathe to admit it, they will freak out if we ever leave.

 

[noble cane]

I’m not sure Spain is a representative population for where Europe is on support of Israel.

There’s no appetite for even token military spending so long as the Americans are around and though they are loathe to admit it, they will freak out if we ever leave.

I had a conversation along that line over cigars and brunello one evening in Firenze.. they were horrified that there might not be the stomach for more American bloodshed in wars born out of Euro-weakness.. nato obligations aside, its tough to continually ignore our needs at home while others dont pull their weight in the alliance.

 

[lawpoke87]

Reality is about to set in once our lawmakers actually see how much tax revenue it’s going to take to service our debt at these bond yields. Fighting wars abroad and defense spending overseas seem to be the most appropriate starting point to cut expenditures.

 

[HuffyCane]

Reality is about to set in once our lawmakers actually see how much tax revenue it’s going to take to service our debt at these bond yields. Fighting wars abroad and defense spending overseas seem to be the most appropriate starting point to cut expenditures.

No chance. The pain will be felt by you and me.

 

[aTUfan]

we cant fix the world. Europe needs to step up.

 

[noble cane]

Reality is about to set in once our lawmakers actually see how much tax revenue it’s going to take to service our debt at these bond yields. Fighting wars abroad and defense spending overseas seem to be the most appropriate starting point to cut expenditures.

Three words...

Modern. Monetary. Theory...

 

[lawpoke87]

WaPo now saying what some of us in this board have been saying for the past year plus.

 

[astonmartin708]

WaPo now saying what some of us in this board have been saying for the past year plus.

View embedded media

Defeat for Ukraine is far more likely if you give up support. Don’t worry… we can support the Israelis killing a bunch of unarmed 7 year olds though.

 

[lawpoke87]

Defeat for Ukraine is far more likely if you give up support. Don’t worry… we can support the Israelis killing a bunch of unarmed 7 year olds though.

This war was over more than a year ago. All we’re doing now is burning money and assisting in killing people in that theater. Unless we’re willing to put thousands of boots on the ground there is no path to dislodge the Russians from the territory they have taken. Which I might add we were complacent in (and you supported) by not supplying advanced weapon systems prior to the invasion.

Didn’t realize you were a Hamas sympathizer .

 

[Gmoney4WW]

This war was over more than a year ago. All we’re doing now is burning money and assisting in killing people in that theater. Unless we’re willing to put thousands of boots on the ground there is no path to dislodge the Russians from the territory they have taken. Which I might add we were complacent in (and you supported) by not supplying advanced weapon systems prior to the invasion.

Didn’t realize you were a Hamas sympathizer .

You never mention the touchy situation w/ supplying weapons prior to or after the invasion. It was unknown what the Soviets reaction would be. That's why we gradually moved up to the advanced weapons we supplied after the invasion. It was a long time before we(the royal we) supplied Himars, Leopards, and Jets for the very reason of why we didn't supply any weapons until after the invasion. Arm chair president.

 

[lawpoke87]

You never mention the touchy situation w/ supplying weapons prior to or after the invasion. It was unknown what the Soviets reaction would be. That's why we gradually moved up to the advanced weapons we supplied after the invasion. It was a long time before we(the royal we) supplied Himars, Leopards, and Jets for the very reason of why we didn't supply any weapons until after the invasion. Arm chair president.

Go back and look at the threads. I was a strong proponent of supplying advanced weapons prior to the invasion. Aston rationale as to why I was wrong was fear the Ukrainians would abandon them and they would fall into Russian hands like we saw in Afghanistan. I correctly pointed out that the Ukrainians were nothing like the Afghans.

You are correct in that we had no idea what Putin would do if we had supplied advance air defense weapons insuring the Russians would not have air superiority. We were aware once the Russians captured the territory there would be no path for Ukraine to retake it without NATO boots on the ground and air.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Go back and look at the threads. I was a strong proponent of supplying advanced weapons prior to the invasion. Aston rationale as to why I was wrong was fear the Ukrainians would abandon them and they would fall into Russian hands like we saw in Afghanistan. I correctly pointed out that the Ukrainians were nothing like the Afghans.

You are correct in that we had no idea what Putin would do if we had supplied advance air defense weapons insuring the Russians would not have air superiority. We were aware once the Russians captured the territory there would be no path for Ukraine to retake it without NATO boots on the ground and air.

That 1st paragraph is irrelevant to the point I was bringing up. I never said you weren't a proponent. I never agreed w/ or disagreed with Aston's point about the afghans.

I was simply bringing up the reason we waited till after there was absolute justification for our actions, and also pointed out that we were tentative at first because of why we waited. You always ignore that aspect in your after responses'.

It was a valid reason for our actions/inactions.

 

[lawpoke87]

That 1st paragraph is irrelevant to the point I was bringing up. I never said you weren't a proponent. I never agreed w/ or disagreed with Aston's point about the afghans.

I was simply bringing up the reason we waited till after there was absolute justification for our actions, and also pointed out that we were tentative at first because of why we waited. You always ignore that aspect in your after responses'.

It was a valid reason for our actions/inactions.

I argued at the time and continue to believe that providing advanced air defense assets is not a sign of aggression or even provocation. Instead, they are defensive weapons meant to thwart anticipated Russian aggression.

I took exception to your “arm chair” president response. Such a description would be accurate if I had not set forth my position prior to the invasion. It is what it is at this point. Unfortunately, Ukraine will never reclaim most of their captured territory. I simply sought to prevent the current situation from the outset.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I argued at the time and continue to believe that providing advanced air defense assets is not a sign of aggression or even provocation. Instead, they are defensive weapons meant to thwart anticipated Russian aggression.

I took exception to your “arm chair” president response. Such a description would be accurate if I had not set forth my position prior to the invasion. It is what it is at this point. Unfortunately, Ukraine will never reclaim most of their captured territory. I simply sought to prevent the current situation from the outset.

Arm chair as in ignoring the valid trepidations to provide support before, and not mentioning it afterwords. That is what I was referring to as arm chair, not your feelings before the invasion. There is pre, and post, and post, post arm chair. I was referring to post, post.

And Putin would not have seen providing air defense as not, a sign of aggression. He would have seen it as getting in the way of what he wanted to do. That was our main concern. Our secondary concern was not having the support of our allies. We were trying not to start a WW.

 

[lawpoke87]

Arm chair as in ignoring the valid trepidations to provide support before, and not mentioning it afterwords. That is what I was referring to as arm chair, not your feelings before the invasion. There is pre, and post, and post, post arm chair. I was referring to post, post.

And Putin would not have seen providing air defense as not, a sign of aggression. He would have seen it as getting in the way of what he wanted to do. That was our main concern. Our secondary concern was not having the support of our allies. We were trying not to start a WW.

Our only hope of thwarting Putin’s invasion was to convince him we were committed to doing whatever necessary to prevent him from invading a sovereign country. I never believe he would escalate the conflict past the Ukraine. His actions over the past two years as we have provided these types of weapon platforms indicates I was likely correct. He saw Ukraine like Crimea as to a western response. We did very little to convince him otherwise prior to the invasion. Does he invade without air support? I have my doubts. At the very least the Russian losses would have been massive and territory gained a fraction of what we now see.

In any event, like I said before this war has been over for more than a year. Russia is dug in and will retain the territory they currently occupy without NATO boots and planes. Something which isn’t happening. Maybe it’s time to talk tough to set up a peace agreement and stop the outflow of resources as well as the continued loss of life? Both military and civilian. Two years into this conflict and we have yet to articulate an end game and how we get there. We haven’t learned from our past mistakes. I started this thread on May 22, 2022 asking a simple question. It’s December 8, 2023 and no one has yet to answer the same.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Our only hope of thwarting Putin’s invasion was to convince him we were committed to doing whatever necessary to prevent him from invading a sovereign country. I never believe he would escalate the conflict past the Ukraine. His actions over the past two years as we have provided these types of weapon platforms indicates I was likely correct. He saw Ukraine like Crimea as to a western response. We did very little to convince him otherwise prior to the invasion. Does he invade without air support? I have my doubts. At the very least the Russian losses would have been massive and territory gained a fraction of what we now see.

In any event, like I said before this war has been over for more than a year. Russia is dug in and will retain the territory they currently occupy without NATO boots and planes. Something which isn’t happening. Maybe it’s time to talk tough to set up a peace agreement and stop the outflow of resources as well as the continued loss of life? Both military and civilian. Two years into this conflict and we have yet to articulate an end game and how we get there. We haven’t learned from our past mistakes. I started this thread on May 22, 2022 asking a simple question. It’s December 8, 2023 and no one has yet to answer the same.

Experts in the military had valid fears that all of your sentiments were not true. I'm sure many of our allies had similar trepidations. There are many who still have those fears, and think Putin won't stop at the territory he has presently taken in Ukraine. He had a desire to take all of Ukraine when he started this. Many don't think he will stop short of that now, without western boots on the ground to stop him.

Their fears are also that in a few years he will attempt to take back the Baltic states despite Nato. All those fears are valid IMO. The whole of Ukraine is a larger prize than the Baltic States though. He has stated on numerous occasions his desire to achieve the Russian Empire of Czar Peter the Great. I don't think Putin will stop until he has achieved this. The only thing that will probably stop him is NATO/US/death.

 

[astonmartin708]

Our only hope of thwarting Putin’s invasion was to convince him we were committed to doing whatever necessary to prevent him from invading a sovereign country. I never believe he would escalate the conflict past the Ukraine. His actions over the past two years as we have provided these types of weapon platforms indicates I was likely correct. He saw Ukraine like Crimea as to a western response. We did very little to convince him otherwise prior to the invasion. Does he invade without air support? I have my doubts. At the very least the Russian losses would have been massive and territory gained a fraction of what we now see.

In any event, like I said before this war has been over for more than a year. Russia is dug in and will retain the territory they currently occupy without NATO boots and planes. Something which isn’t happening. Maybe it’s time to talk tough to set up a peace agreement and stop the outflow of resources as well as the continued loss of life? Both military and civilian. Two years into this conflict and we have yet to articulate an end game and how we get there. We haven’t learned from our past mistakes. I started this thread on May 22, 2022 asking a simple question. It’s December 8, 2023 and no one has yet to answer the same.

No. Your party supported two conflicts for more than a decade needlessly with large losses of military and civilian life.

We lend our support as long as it’s asked for. You don’t give up on your allies just because they’re in a stalemate, or even losing. I think the UK and France appreciate that statement more than anyone. I want to make Putin’s invasion as costly to him as possible.

 

[lawpoke87]

No. Your party supported two conflicts for more than a decade needlessly with large losses of military and civilian life.

We lend our support as long as it’s asked for. You don’t give up on your allies just because they’re in a stalemate, or even losing. I think the UK and France appreciate that statement more than anyone. I want to make Putin’s invasion as costly to him as possible.

I’m an independent. Hard to be pro-choice, pro gay marriage, pro reasonable gun control, pro government healthcare, and be a Pub these days. . My party didn’t support a damn thing nor did I. I was on record from the start as opposing the invasion of Iraq. Unlike some on this board, I’m not a sheep for any party or policy.

We aren’t lending the support being requested. We’ve never provided the support requested. The result is the current stalemate and a situation where Ukraine will never regain the land they’ve lost without American boots in the theater. Russia has the manpower to play the longterm game here. Ukraine does not. We still have no plan for victory as of December 8, 2023.

 

[lawpoke87]

Experts in the military had valid fears that all of your sentiments were not true. I'm sure many of our allies had similar trepidations. There are many who still have those fears, and think Putin won't stop at the territory he has presently taken in Ukraine. He had a desire to take all of Ukraine when he started this. Many don't think he will stop short of that now, without western boots on the ground to stop him.

Their fears are also that in a few years he will attempt to take back the Baltic states despite Nato. All those fears are valid IMO. The whole of Ukraine is a larger prize than the Baltic States though. He has stated on numerous occasions his desire to achieve the Russian Empire of Czar Peter the Great. I don't think Putin will stop until he has achieved this. The only thing that will probably stop him is NATO/US/death.

Putin lacks the military capability to take the Baltics as long as we’re willing to provide air support. This war as shown as much. Anyone who fears he will take the Baltics hasn’t been paying attention over the last two years. The Russian military machine was all hype. Surely we’re still not selling the story that Putin poses a real danger of seizing the Baltics? He wouldn’t be in Ukraine if we had provided air defenses.

Certain “experts” did express those fears. Based on Putin’s actions to date it appears they were likely wrong. Other “experts” argued a show of force was the only way to persuade him against an invasion. They also warned that once the Russian took territory and dug in it would be extremely costly if not impossible for Ukraine forced to dislodge them. Wonder which ones were correct.

Doesn’t really matter at this point. We need a resolution. Two years in and I still haven’t heard anything which remotely sounds like a solution. I’ve been asking the question a long damn time. All our posters do is ignore the original question posed in this thread and deflect to other wars and conflicts. That’s not a solution.

 

[lawpoke87]

Even left wing media outlets are now pointing out we have no real strategy in Ukraine to win the war.

At this critical moment for Ukraine, Biden must face the truth – and rethink his strategy | Emma Ashford

As support for US aid falters and an election looms, the White House needs a narrative based on reality, not rhetoric, says author Emma Ashford

www.theguardian.com

 

[noble cane]

This war was decided in Feb/March of 2014 when the leadership of the free world allowed Putin to take the Crimea.

 

[astonmartin708]

Even left wing media outlets are now pointing out we have no real strategy in Ukraine to win the war.

At this critical moment for Ukraine, Biden must face the truth – and rethink his strategy | Emma Ashford

As support for US aid falters and an election looms, the White House needs a narrative based on reality, not rhetoric, says author Emma Ashford

www.theguardian.com

Please tell me, what was our strategy to beat the Nazis around the time of Dunkirk?

Can you tell me our strategy to beat the German Empire right around the time of Verdun?

 

[noble cane]

Please tell me, what was our strategy to beat the Nazis around the time of Dunkirk?

Can you tell me our strategy to beat the German Empire right around the time of Verdun?

Wait on the American troops to bail them out...

That was western europe's strategy then and it still is today.. yankees come spill your blood and waste your treasure saving our asses while we enjoy a fun socialist lifestyle..

 

[lawpoke87]

Please tell me, what was our strategy to beat the Nazis around the time of Dunkirk?

There weren’t many calls for a strategy to beat Russia 8 months into the Ukraine war. Two years in…..we probably should have a strategy. We did in WW2.

The result of WW2 was sending over 16M America’s into the conflict. Sound like a good plan for Ukraine ?

Quit deflecting and admit our Ukrainian strategy is a mess. Swear they won’t take away your Dem card.

 

[astonmartin708]

There weren’t many calls for a strategy to beat Russia 8 months into the Ukraine war. Two years in…..we probably should have a strategy. We did in WW2.

The result of WW2 was sending over 16M America’s into the conflict. Sound like a good plan for Ukraine ?

Quit deflecting and admit our Ukrainian strategy is a mess. Swear they won’t take away your Dem card.

You completely missed my point.

2 years into WWII, America had more or less no strategy (other than economic / military policy that drew us further into the war). That was right around the time of Dunkirk / the Battle of Britain.

The only reason the war in Ukraine is ongoing is because Russia has intercontinental nuclear warheads. If it wasn't for that, American boots would have been on the ground and the war would have already been over.

If you abandon your allies after they sacrificed everything in two hard fought years, you're not going to have allies for very long. Alliances will begin to shift and we will be on the outside looking in. Our endgame is to turn this into their Vietnam. That also means we need to see asymmetric warfare in occupied Ukraine though.

If the US doesn't turn it's back there's a decent chance that this conflict prolongs until Putin dies. If we turn our back, this conflict is over tomorrow and the next Russian incursion will begin in 3-5 years, after they've had time to rearm, and the cost then will be greater.