Ukraine….what’s our endgame here

[lawpoke87]

You completely missed my point.

2 years into WWII, America had more or less no strategy (other than economic / military policy that drew us further into the war). That was right around the time of Dunkirk / the Battle of Britain.

The only reason the war in Ukraine is ongoing is because Russia has nuclear warheads. If it wasn't for that the war would have already been over.

We absolutely had a strategy 2 years into WW2….not be drawn into an European ground war. You know this. That of course changed when we were attacked.

I would argue the only reason the Ukraine war is ongoing is we allowed Putin to waltz into Crimea uncontested and when he stated his intention to do the same in Ukraine we failed to supply advanced military assets which would have either prevented the invasion or made the same very very costly and difficult. Putin figured we wouldn’t defend Ukraine (see Crimea) and he was correct. Now we want Ukraine to dislodge dug in Russia troops without air support? Brilliant stuff. Ukrainians are dying in large numbers. Nothing will change other than Ukraine running out of bodies unless something changes. Crickets.

Biden doesn’t have the leadership ability to commit Amercian troops to Ukraine and you know it. Doesn’t really matter what you would support. Your President doesn’t.

 

[astonmartin708]

We absolutely had a strategy 2 years into WW2….not be drawn into an European ground war. You know this. That of course changed when we were attacked.

I would argue the only reason the Ukraine war is ongoing is we allowed Putin to waltz into Crimea uncontested and when he stated his intention to do the same in Ukraine we failed to supply advanced military assets which would have either prevented the invasion or made the same very very costly and difficult. Putin figured we wouldn’t defend Ukraine (see Crimea) and he was correct. Now we want Ukraine to dislodge dug in Russia troops without air support? Brilliant stuff. Ukrainians are dying in large numbers. Nothing will change other than Ukraine running out of bodies unless something changes. Crickets.

Our strategy prior to WW2 was not avoiding a European ground war. The president wanted to go into the war, he just needed the right crisis to excuse it, which is why we went to war with Germany without their explicit provocation.

I don't want to dislodge Russian troops. I want to destabilize Russia because of a prolonged war and astronomical attrition.

Yes, Ukrainians are dying for their nation. It's horribly sad, and it's Putin's fault.

As far as not arming Ukraine, I'm pretty sure we had an impeachment where we absolved someone for that.... go figure Putin loved Trump.

 

[lawpoke87]

I don't want to dislodge Russian troops. I want to destabilize Russia because of a prolonged war and astronomical attrition.

Yes, Ukrainians are dying for their nation. It's horribly sad, and it's Putin's fault.

As far as not arming Ukraine, I'm pretty sure we had an impeachment where we absolved someone for that.... go figure Putin loved Trump.

Russia wins wars of attrition. It’s what they do. They will win this one as well if that’s what it becomes. They don’t care about loss of life. Not sure Ukraine does either. The problem is Russia has a lot more bodies. Your strategy is a loser.

We had months while Putin was amassing his troops to show we were serious about arming Ukraine as well as providing air defense support for a sovereign nation. We did nothing. Same as Crimea. Now here we are….wanting to provide advance military assets too late in the game.

 

[astonmartin708]

Russia wins wars of attrition. It’s what they do. They will win this one as well if that’s what it becomes. They don’t care about loss of life. Not sure Ukraine does either. The problem is Russia has a lot more bodies. Your strategy is a loser.

We had months while Putin was amassing his troops to show we were serious about arming Ukraine as well as providing air defense support for a sovereign nation. We did nothing. Same as Crimea. Now here we are….wanting to provide advance military assets too late in the game.

Which war of attrition has Russia ever won? They lost WWI. They would have lost WWII if it weren’t for our aid. I guess you can go back to Napoleon if you want but that’s not the same paradigm. China certainly benefited from the attrition it caused in the Vietnam conflict.

Your strategy of appeasement is a loser Mr. Chamberlain. Then again, maybe Mr. Putin will finally stop if we’re just willing to give up the Sudetenland.

I say we negotiate for land but instead of offering Putin the Donbas we offer him Oklahoma and Texas. Clearly the values of the two societies align much better.

If only we hadn’t been wasting time and money in the sand for 20 years maybe we could have better equipped our allies.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

We absolutely had a strategy 2 years into WW2….not be drawn into an European ground war. You know this. That of course changed when we were attacked.

I would argue the only reason the Ukraine war is ongoing is we allowed Putin to waltz into Crimea uncontested and when he stated his intention to do the same in Ukraine we failed to supply advanced military assets which would have either prevented the invasion or made the same very very costly and difficult. Putin figured we wouldn’t defend Ukraine (see Crimea) and he was correct. Now we want Ukraine to dislodge dug in Russia troops without air support? Brilliant stuff. Ukrainians are dying in large numbers. Nothing will change other than Ukraine running out of bodies unless something changes. Crickets.

Biden doesn’t have the leadership ability to commit Amercian troops to Ukraine and you know it. Doesn’t really matter what you would support. Your President doesn’t.

What about the planes that they are training to use right now? The training is supposed to be through some time around late feb or march, IIRC. That's the beginning of air support.

You know China has seen a # of countries creeping slowly towards them since Trump. Those countries used to be solid allies to the US. Abandoning Ukraine pushes those countries further away.

We commit troops to Ukraine and that probably brings Russia & China into it. I would hope no president would commit troops to Ukraine because of the risk. We need to be prepared to help Ukraine fight a long war. We will watch much of Europe gradually become part of Russia if we let Putin take over Ukraine. There won't be any agreement for him to stop at the land that he has already taken IMO.

At some point Putin will feel emboldened to hit the Baltic states in a few years. He'll figure ours and Nato's fear of a WW involving him, China, Iran, Syria & several other countries, will paralyze any action. (An aside, he also gains soldiers with the defeat of Ukraine too, not just the money, grain, minerals and more access to weapons.) I assume he would use the Ukrainian troops just like he used Wagners troops, if he did attack the Balkans. They would be fodder.

China & Russia might not even leave that decision to us by just attacking a Balkan state. The Chinese are currently surpassing the US Navy. A few more years & it will be even more superior. China will be much readier then, to get into a conflict. They Russia/China might be looking to provoke us, rather than just seeing what they can get away with. The Balkans and Taiwan might come at the same time. Then we will have to make a decision that would either cave, or spend a whole lot more money than we already have in Ukraine, and cost a whole lot of blood on our part. if we sent troops, everybody would probably send troops.

I agree with what McConnell said recently about having to deal with our foreign policy not individually but as an interconnected and complex group. He was talking in relation to Hamas/Ukraine/China but the concept applies across the board. You know they preplan what to do and when, in relation to each other's actions. That includes now, and 10 years from now as ongoing conversations. Essentially McConell was saying it is a game of 3d chess, not checkers.

Make no bones about it, China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, etc are planning and preparing for a possible war with the US, and western countries. A few more years, possibly after our country is even more split, and looking weaker, it won't take much for a war to start. When those countries feel like they are ready, they almost want that to happen. Especially when they see more signs of division & weakness coming from us.

Abandoning Ukraine is one of the first steps toward emboldening Putin. Unless some things change, I don't know that we can avoid a WW by 2035.(Climate change may boost that along too.) I would like to avoid that. Ukraine is one of the precursors to WWI's Prussia IMO. Stopping Putin now is one of the changes that needs to happen to possibly avoid going to war. (The only way the Eastern Powers stop considering war a viable and useful option is if we implode with division, and start failing as a nation, without any bullets fired.)

I think a WW would bring us together in a way that hasn't existed for a long time. We also have a better shot at winning that war than the East does, but that's not absolute. I'd rather not go there if we don't have to. I don't want to give up the lives and take the slightest risk of losing, in order to bring us together.

 

[watu05]

Given the rise of authoritarian governments worldwide, why should the US not join the club? Authoritarian governments already govern a majority of the world's population In the 30's fascism was very popular in the US, along with the KKK and the Nazi party. Maybe WWII just put off the inevitable?
Whether Putin wins in the Ukraine and who is elected as the next US president will tell the tale.

 

[lawpoke87]

What about the planes that they are training to use right now? The training is supposed to be through some time around late feb or march, IIRC. That's the beginning of air support.

You know China has seen a # of countries creeping slowly towards them since Trump. Those countries used to be solid allies to the US. Abandoning Ukraine pushes those countries further away.

We commit troops to Ukraine and that probably brings Russia & China into it. I would hope no president would commit troops to Ukraine because of the risk. We need to be prepared to help Ukraine fight a long war. We will watch much of Europe gradually become part of Russia if we let Putin take over Ukraine. There won't be any agreement for him to stop at the land that he has already taken IMO.

At some point Putin will feel emboldened to hit the Baltic states in a few years. He'll figure ours and Nato's fear of a WW involving him, China, Iran, Syria & several other countries, will paralyze any action. (An aside, he also gains soldiers with the defeat of Ukraine too, not just the money, grain, minerals and more access to weapons.) I assume he would use the Ukrainian troops just like he used Wagners troops, if he did attack the Balkans. They would be fodder.

China & Russia might not even leave that decision to us by just attacking a Balkan state. The Chinese are currently surpassing the US Navy. A few more years & it will be even more superior. China will be much readier then, to get into a conflict. They Russia/China might be looking to provoke us, rather than just seeing what they can get away with. The Balkans and Taiwan might come at the same time. Then we will have to make a decision that would either cave, or spend a whole lot more money than we already have in Ukraine, and cost a whole lot of blood on our part. if we sent troops, everybody would probably send troops.

I agree with what McConnell said recently about having to deal with our foreign policy not individually but as an interconnected and complex group. He was talking in relation to Hamas/Ukraine/China but the concept applies across the board. You know they preplan what to do and when, in relation to each other's actions. That includes now, and 10 years from now as ongoing conversations. Essentially McConell was saying it is a game of 3d chess, not checkers.

Make no bones about it, China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, etc are planning and preparing for a possible war with the US, and western countries. A few more years, possibly after our country is even more split, and looking weaker, it won't take much for a war to start. When those countries feel like they are ready, they almost want that to happen. Especially when they see more signs of division & weakness coming from us.

Abandoning Ukraine is one of the first steps toward emboldening Putin. Unless some things change, I don't know that we can avoid a WW by 2035.(Climate change may boost that along too.) I would like to avoid that. Ukraine is one of the precursors to WWI's Prussia IMO. Stopping Putin now is one of the changes that needs to happen to possibly avoid going to war. (The only way the Eastern Powers stop considering war a viable and useful option is if we implode with division, and start failing as a nation, without any bullets fired.)

I think a WW would bring us together in a way that hasn't existed for a long time. We also have a better shot at winning that war than the East does, but that's not absolute. I'd rather not go there if we don't have to. I don't want to give up the lives and take the slightest risk of losing, in order to bring us together.

Thanks for the thoughts. The best part of this board are the posts which make you think and at times reconsider one’s position.

I have a basic disagreement with your premise that Russia (or China) poses a real threat to the Balkans. If the last two years have taught us anything it’s that we’ve grossly overestimated Russia’s conventional army’s capabilities. They have proved incapable of invading Ukraine despite having vast air superiority and fighting against antiquated weapon systems and poorly trained soldiers. There is zero chance Russia would be able to project power into the Balkans if full scale support was provided by the West.

We obviously sent the wrong message with our non-response to Crimea. Compounded it by not committing to defend Ukraine during Putin’s pre war buildup. I don’t believe I’ve ever advocated abandoning Ukraine. I have called for either a strategy to win the war or a strategy to end the war. The most likely outcome at this point is unfortunately a redrawn map with the border located where the now exist. Ukraine isn’t displacing Russian troops from their current positions without NATO boots. It is what it is. I also don’t believe the West has the staying power of Putin in Ukraine. NATO countries won’t continue to funnel hundred of billions into a conflict it appears can’t be won and is losing public support. Politicians care too much about elections. NATO will eventually seek a peaceful compromise imo. Maybe sooner than later

We seem to have fallen asleep on China over the past 3-4 years. Like Russia, China doesn’t have the capability to project power over vast distances. They pose a military danger in Taiwan and Korea. The real threat is financial imo. They have declared economic war on the U.S. over the last several years. They play the long term game. We’ve seen them approach and in some cases turn some of our friends in their corner over the past several years. We haven’t responded to this threat. Whether it’s because of our focus on Russia or just plain malfeasance. China needs more of our attention.

 

[lawpoke87]

Given the rise of authoritarian governments worldwide, why should the US not join the club? Authoritarian governments already govern a majority of the world's population In the 30's fascism was very popular in the US, along with the KKK and the Nazi party. Maybe WWII just put off the inevitable?
Whether Putin wins in the Ukraine and who is elected as the next US president will tell the tale.

The rise is authoritarian governments worldwide is a concern. We’ve seen them censor the free speech rights of their citizens at rates we haven’t seen since the 30s. Unconstitutionally force citizens to take a vaccine they knew didn’t prevent the virus for which it was developed. Fascism is indeed on the rise. The question now is can the path we’ve been on be reversed ? With the two likely options for this next election the answer is likely no. Ironically for very different reasons

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Thanks for the thoughts. The best part of this board are the posts which make you think and at times reconsider one’s position.

I have a basic disagreement with your premise that Russia (or China) poses a real threat to the Balkans. If the last two years have taught us anything it’s that we’ve grossly overestimated Russia’s conventional army’s capabilities. They have proved incapable of invading Ukraine despite having vast air superiority and fighting against antiquated weapon systems and poorly trained soldiers. There is zero chance Russia would be able to project power into the Balkans if full scale support was provided by the West.

We obviously sent the wrong message with our non-response to Crimea. Compounded it by not committing to defend Ukraine during Putin’s pre war buildup. I don’t believe I’ve ever advocated abandoning Ukraine. I have called for either a strategy to win the war or a strategy to end the war. The most likely outcome at this point is unfortunately a redrawn map with the border located where the now exist. Ukraine isn’t displacing Russian troops from their current positions without NATO boots. It is what it is. I also don’t believe the West has the staying power of Putin in Ukraine. NATO countries won’t continue to funnel hundred of billions into a conflict it appears can’t be won and is losing public support. Politicians care too much about elections. NATO will eventually seek a peaceful compromise imo. Maybe sooner than later

We seem to have fallen asleep on China over the past 3-4 years. Like Russia, China doesn’t have the capability to project power over vast distances. They pose a military danger in Taiwan and Korea. The real threat is financial imo. They have declared economic war on the U.S. over the last several years. They play the long term game. We’ve seen them approach and in some cases turn some of our friends in their corner over the past several years. We haven’t responded to this threat. Whether it’s because of our focus on Russia or just plain malfeasance. China needs more of our attention.

I don't agree with you that China doesn't or won't have the ability to project power over distances. And their ability will be greater in 5-7 years. They are spending more than we are on their military right now, and building it fast. And they are watching and learning from Russia's problems.

I don't think that Russia would go into the Balkans without support from China. Much more support than they have received for Ukraine. And if China goes all out for Taiwan at the same time, our efforts and monies will be split between the two wars. I think Putin will also have learned some lessons from what happened in Ukraine, and will be better able to deal w/ projecting power over those distances. It will be the primary objective on his mind for the next 5 to 7 years.

added
Our ability to project power over distances is directly affected by our naval power. You know they are surpassing us right now. We currently have no plans to put forth a serious increase in time and money to keep up with them. There is no effort to change that politically right now.

 

[noble cane]

Given the rise of authoritarian governments worldwide, why should the US not join the club? Authoritarian governments already govern a majority of the world's population In the 30's fascism was very popular in the US, along with the KKK and the Nazi party. Maybe WWII just put off the inevitable?
Whether Putin wins in the Ukraine and who is elected as the next US president will tell the tale.

Keep your head down... Charlie's in the trees!

 

[noble cane]

Blast from the past.....

Analysis: It's time to admit it: Mitt Romney was right about Russia

A decade ago, Mitt Romney went on CNN and made a statement that was widely perceived as a major mistake.

www.google.com

 

[lawpoke87]

Blast from the past.....

Analysis: It's time to admit it: Mitt Romney was right about Russia

A decade ago, Mitt Romney went on CNN and made a statement that was widely perceived as a major mistake.

www.google.com

Two years after that remark our buddy Putin invaded Crimea to crickets from the West

 

[lawpoke87]

I don't agree with you that China doesn't or won't have the ability to project power over distances. And their ability will be greater in 5-7 years. They are spending more than we are on their military right now, and building it fast. And they are watching and learning from Russia's problems.

I don't think that Russia would go into the Balkans without support from China. Much more support than they have received for Ukraine. And if China goes all out for Taiwan at the same time, our efforts and monies will be split between the two wars. I think Putin will also have learned some lessons from what happened in Ukraine, and will be better able to deal w/ projecting power over those distances. It will be the primary objective on his mind for the next 5 to 7 years.

added
Our ability to project power over distances is directly affected by our naval power. You know they are surpassing us right now. We currently have no plans to put forth a serious increase in time and money to keep up with them. There is no effort to change that politically right now.

I certainly believe China is headed toward become a global military power. Probably ten or so years away from being able to project power a thousand miles from its borders. My opinion is based on their current carrier fleet and the number of daily sorties they are capable of flying.

As far as Russia, I simply don’t believe their military assets are up to par nor their soldiers. When mercenaries are far out performing your standing military personnel there’s a problem. Not sure either one of those issues can be readily solved.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I certainly believe China is headed toward become a global military power. Probably ten or so years away from being able to project power a thousand miles from its borders. My opinion is based on their current carrier fleet and the number of daily sorties they are capable of flying.

As far as Russia, I simply don’t believe their military assets are up to par nor their soldiers. When mercenaries are far out performing your standing military personnel there’s a problem. Not sure either one of those issues can be readily solved.

I think China is 5-7 years away, you think 10. We aren't that far apart.

Russia can be supported and aided by China. I'm seeing it as a group threat as well, w/ Iran, Syria, Turkey, N Korea, etc getting involved somehow.

 

[lawpoke87]

I think China is 5-7 years away, you think 10. We aren't that far apart.

Russia can be supported and aided by China. I'm seeing it as a group threat as well, w/ Iran, Syria, Turkey, N Korea, etc getting involved somehow.

Where do you see this conflict occurring ? Russia would need significant and upgraded military assets to have any success in the European theater imo. Not sure how much support China could provide. Lots of miles between Europe and China by both land and see. The Allies superior air and navel power would prove problematic imo for any large troop or armor moves. Hope we never find out. Millions upon millions of lives would be lost.

 

[watu05]

Putin seeks victory in USA weakness. China will see it too. It will be a lot cheaper in the long run to support Ukraine than to set an example that encourages more Chinese and Russian expansion and leads to direct conflict with the US.

 

[lawpoke87]

Putin seeks victory in USA weakness. China will see it too. It will be a lot cheaper in the long run to support Ukraine than to set an example that encourages more Chinese and Russian expansion and leads to direct conflict with the US.

Are you suggesting Obama’s weakness in allowing Putin to invade Crimea led to Putin moving on Ukraine?

 

[noble cane]

Are you suggesting Obama’s weakness in allowing Putin to invade Crimea led to Putin moving on Ukraine?

Dont forget the multiple red lines drawn in the Syrian sands...

 

[astonmartin708]

Putin is playing the same game that Iran did in the 80’s, saying he wants to deal with Trump (just like they wanted to deal with Reagan).

Wouldnt be surprised if Trump started covert, illegal arms sales to Russia (helping them rearm) within a few months of being elected.

The Russian Federation is playing its hand excellently, especially with its far-right puppets across the globe. Putin’s endeavor is to install and support shadow dictators across the globe that have less competency than him and who can prevent the west from inhibiting him. (Orban, Trump, Lepine, etc…)

That isn’t dissimilar from the US propping up dictators around the world to be subservient to them in the 50’s.

After Ukraine, the next battleground will be Serbia.

 

[lawpoke87]

Putin is playing the same game that Iran did in the 80’s, saying he wants to deal with Trump (just like they wanted to deal with Reagan).

Wouldnt be surprised if Trump started covert, illegal arms sales to Russia (helping them rearm) within a few months of being elected.

The Russian Federation is playing its hand excellently, especially with its far-right puppets across the globe. Putin’s endeavor is to install and support shadow dictators across the globe that have less competency than him and who can prevent the west from inhibiting him. (Orban, Trump, Lepine, etc…)

I do agree that Biden and Carter have a great deal in common. Funny….you talk about Trump not inhibiting Putin but the two Presidents in office when Putin took Crimea and eastern Ukraine were Obama and Biden. Both of whom did practically nothing to prevent those invasions. But yeah, it’s Trump who won’t inhibit Putin from foreign expansion .

Curious….what sovereign countries did Putin invade during Trump’s presidency ?

 

[astonmartin708]

I do agree that Biden and Carter have a great deal in common. Funny….you talk about Trump not inhibiting Putin but the two Presidents in office when Putin took Crimea and eastern Ukraine were Obama and Biden. Both of whom did practically nothing to prevent those invasions. But yeah, it’s Trump who won’t inhibit Putin from foreign expansion .

Curious….what sovereign countries did Putin invade during Trump’s presidency ?

In that they both refused to bend over for enemy regimes while their opponents were vocal about their toughness but behind closed doors would do anything asked of them?

Trump saw the same buildup that Biden did and he did nothing despite being begged by the Ukrainians. Thats why he was impeached the first time. He enabled the current situation and actually made it worse.

You want to blame all of the events on the people in office when they occurred and nothing on those who were in office while the groundwork for the conflict (and dealing with the global backlash to it) was being laid.

Things like Trump trying to tear apart NATO come to mind. I don’t think there has been a more harmful presidency than Trump’s first term in regards to mishandled foreign policy with Ukraine, Russia, China, etc…

 

[lawpoke87]

In that they both refused to bend over for enemy regimes while their opponents were vocal about their toughness but behind closed doors would do anything asked of them?

Trump saw the same buildup that Biden did and he did nothing despite being begged by the Ukrainians. Thats why he was impeached the first time. He enabled the current situation and actually made it worse.

You want to blame all of the events on the people in office when they occurred and nothing on those who were in office while the build to conflict was happening.

Trump was out of office in January 2021. Putin attacked Ukraine over a year later. 13 months into the Biden presidency. Blaming Trump for our lack of response is ridiculous. Biden had well over a year to provide arms and expertise for the defense of Ukraine and coward out of fear of Putin’s response.

Not sure what went on behind closed doors but both Obama and Biden provided an open door to Crimea and Ukraine for Putin. It is what it is. We’ve talked a lot on this board about why both Presidents failed to attempt to stop Putin on either invasion.

 

[astonmartin708]

Trump was out of office in January 2021. Putin attacked Ukraine over a year later. 13 months into the Biden presidency. Blaming Trump for our lack of response is ridiculous. Biden had well over a year to provide arms and expertise for the defense of Ukraine and coward out of fear of Putin’s response.

Not sure what went on behind closed doors but both Obama and Biden provided an open door to Crimea and Ukraine for Putin. It is what it is. We’ve talked a lot on this board about why both Presidents failed to attempt to stop Putin on either invasion.

We have transcripts of Zelensky begging Trump for weapons in response to what was inevitable and him repeatedly refusing. The build up to conflict was going on a lot longer than 13 months. Blaming Trump for a lack of response is absolutely not ridiculous. We had multiple intelligence chiefs in Trumps own administration say so.


If you want to talk about ignoring things you can start with Bush ignoring what happened in Georgia.

The sad thing is that you sound eerily like Putin’s own PR representatives in your assertions when compared to theirs. They want the west to adopt the views that you’re adopting because it benefits them.

 

[lawpoke87]

We have transcripts of Zelensky begging Trump for weapons in response to what was inevitable and him repeatedly refusing. The build up to conflict was going on a lot longer than 13 months. Blaming Trump for a lack of response is absolutely not ridiculous. We had multiple intelligence chiefs in Trumps own administration say so.


If you want to talk about ignoring things you can start with Bush ignoring what happened in Georgia.

The sad thing is that you sound eerily like Putin’s own PR representatives in your assertions when compared to theirs. They want the west to adopt the views that you’re adopting because it benefits them.

Absolutely ridiculous. Biden had well over a year while Putin amassed more and more armor and personnel near the Ukraine border. Biden did zilch other than sit back and allow the buildup to occur and watch Putin take eastern Ukraine. If you want to blame what a President did 2 years prior that’s fine. However, not acknowledging the facts of Biden’s inaction is the definition of ridiculous. We knew Putin’s intent 6 months before the invasion. Biden did nothing but hold the door open. Again…it is what it is but to suggest Trump or any Pub will be the ones not to inhibit Putin’s expansion goals after what’s occurred on the watch of the last two Dems is foolhardy. Both coward to Putin and you supported their appeasement.

 

[noble cane]

you supported their appeasement.

Peace in our time!

 

[noble cane]

Interesting that the govts own website makes no mention of special arms shipments to Ukraine prior to invasion in Feb '22... (O'Biden inaugurated Jan 21)

FTR.. Russian buildup began in Mar/April '21 so... O'Biden had almost 11 months to make a show of force..

Russian War in Ukraine: Timeline

Since Feb. 24, 2022, the United States and its allies and partners have provided equipment and training to Ukraine, capabilities necessary for Ukraine’s defense of its sovereign territory. This international security assistance has had a significant impact in defending against Russian aggression...

www.defense.gov

 

[astonmartin708]

Absolutely ridiculous. Biden had well over a year while Putin amassed more and more armor and personnel near the Ukraine border. Biden did zilch other than sit back and allow the buildup to occur and watch Putin take eastern Ukraine. If you want to blame what a President did 2 years prior that’s fine. However, not acknowledging the facts of Biden’s inaction is the definition of ridiculous. We knew Putin’s intent 6 months before the invasion. Biden did nothing but hold the door open. Again…it is what it is but to suggest Trump or any Pub will be the ones not to inhibit Putin’s expansion goals after what’s occurred on the watch of the last two Dems is foolhardy. Both coward to Putin and you supported their appeasement.

Biden’s lended arms the only reason there is still any independent Ukraine, and a number of those are from prior to the invasion, or were placed nearby in strategy for just such an occasion.

I have no doubt that if Trump had won in 2020 an independent Ukraine would no longer be on the map.

 

[lawpoke87]

Biden’s lended arms the only reason there is still any independent Ukraine, and a number of those are from prior to the invasion, or were placed nearby in strategy for just such an occasion.

I have no doubt that if Trump had won in 2020 an independent Ukraine would no longer be on the map.

That my friend is some twisted logic. Let’s look at some facts. Putin invaded Crimea while Obama Biden sat back and did absolutely nothing. It’s no coincidence Putin waited until Biden took office to move on Ukraine. Putin spent 10 months building up his forces along the Ukrainian border. You can bet he was watching Biden’s actions very carefully. Would Biden act to defend Ukraine during the buildup or would he repeat his actions during the Crimea invasion and cower. Biden of course chose the latter. Giving the indication Ukraine would be a repeat of Crimea. Under Trump we would still have a fully intact Ukraine and no war. Just like we had during his Presidency. The Putin’s of this world take advantage of weak leaders. See Crimea and Ukraine.

 

[noble cane]

I think someone on here has forgotten that Trump sold Javelin A/T missiles to Ukraine in 2017, 18, and 19... while Obama sent blankets, flashlights, and MRE's in response to Putins invasion of the Crimea and Donbas.

 

[lawpoke87]

I think someone on here has forgotten that Trump sold Javelin A/T missiles to Ukraine in 2017, 18, and 19... while Obama sent blankets, flashlights, and MRE's in response to Putins invasion of the Crimea and Donbas.

Putin has every reason to believe Biden would respond to his military buildup along the Ukraine border the same way he reacted to the buildup leading into the invasion of Crimea. Sadly, Putin read Biden like a book.

Russia will outlast the west. Ukraine ultimately lacks the numbers without NATO boots on the ground. This war was over the minute Russia invaded those eastern areas. Russia isn’t giving up that territory and Ukraine lacks the numbers to retake it. The current border will be the border ten years from now.

 

[astonmartin708]

That my friend is some twisted logic. Let’s look at some facts. Putin invaded Crimea while Obama Biden sat back and did absolutely nothing. It’s no coincidence Putin waited until Biden took office to move on Ukraine. Putin spent 10 months building up his forces along the Ukrainian border. You can bet he was watching Biden’s actions very carefully. Would Biden act to defend Ukraine during the buildup or would he repeat his actions during the Crimea invasion and cower. Biden of course chose the latter. Giving the indication Ukraine would be a repeat of Crimea. Under Trump we would still have a fully intact Ukraine and no war. Just like we had during his Presidency. The Putin’s of this world take advantage of weak leaders. See Crimea and Ukraine.

You honestly believe that Trump would have prevented this from happening?

Why would Putin and his propaganda ministers / agents be lobbying to remove Biden from office? Someone that you believe they view as someone to be taken advantage of?

That doesn’t make any logical sense at all. It’s doublethink.

The Russians can’t achieve their true strategic objective (which was taking Kiev as they were originally on the outskirts of it trying to overtake it) much of that inability is due to the continued funding we give Ukraine…. So they want to lobby us to get rid of the person advocating for the continued funding and replace him with someone who would remove that support..,, thus allowing them to achieve their objective. How is that hard to understand?

You sound like Tucker Carlson.

 

[lawpoke87]

You honestly believe that Trump would have prevented this from happening?

Why would Putin and his propaganda ministers / agents be lobbying to remove Biden from office? Someone that you believe they view as someone to be taken advantage of?

That doesn’t make any logical sense at all. It’s doublethink.

The Russians can’t achieve their true strategic objective (which was taking Kiev as they were originally on the outskirts of it trying to overtake it) much of that inability is due to the continued funding we give Ukraine…. So they want to lobby us to get rid of the person advocating for the continued funding and replace him with someone who would remove that support..,, thus allowing them to achieve their objective.

Not sure if the invasion would have occurred under Trump but I don’t believe Trump/NATO sits back and allows Putin to take Ukraine. Putin’s lack of aggression during the Trump presidency says as much. No chance NATO allows Putin to take Kiev….ever. There will eventually be a ceasefire and the borders will be drawn where they currently exist. It is sadly inevitable.

It is a fact that Putin took advantage of Biden when he was allowed to invade Crimea and further took advantage of Biden when he was allowed to build up his forces for 9 months along Ukraine border and take those eastern territories while we sat back and did nothing but watch. Ultimately leading to Ukraine losing that territory. That is on Biden. He did nothing to prevent Putin from taking that territory….just like Crimea. He is consistent if nothing else

You cited your lack of confidence in the Ukrainians not to lose our weapons to Putin as a reason not to provide advanced platforms in advance of the invasion. I argued the Ukrainians would fight not flee. You cited Afghanistan. Who was correct ?

 

[noble cane]

You sound like Tucker Carlson.

wow... the name calling has begun..

 

[lawpoke87]

wow... the name calling has begun..

Losing the argument start calling names. Tactic as old as time. It’s fine. Waving the white flag. It’s ironic that Aston supported not providing the Ukrainians with weapons during the Putin buildup….and here we are. Putin was able to easily take those eastern areas and won’t be giving them up

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Biden’s lended arms the only reason there is still any independent Ukraine, and a number of those are from prior to the invasion, or were placed nearby in strategy for just such an occasion.

I have no doubt that if Trump had won in 2020 an independent Ukraine would no longer be on the map.

It would be titled The Republic of Russia.

Interesting editing of history going on. Still ignoring the fact that we did not have any real idea of Putin's reaction to support of Ukraine before the support happened under Biden.(He bellowed and did nothing.) We also had no idea about the ineptness of the Russian military until it happened. I still think Iran/Russia were heavily involved with the timely Gaza attack on the music festival.

 

[lawpoke87]

It would be titled The Republic of Russia.

Interesting editing of history going on. Still ignoring the fact that we did not have any real idea of Putin's reaction to support of Ukraine before the support happened under Biden.(He bellowed and did nothing.) We also had no idea about the ineptness of the Russian military until it happened. I still think Iran/Russia were heavily involved with the timely Gaza attack on the music festival.

Putin bluffed and Biden blinked still isn’t a good look for the U.S.

I would hope US intelligence had some idea of the ability of the Russian military prior to the invasion of the Ukraine. We certainly spend enough money to have good intelligence.

There is zero doubt that Iran was directly involved in the Gaza attack. Only a small step from there to Russian involvement.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Putin bluffed and Biden blinked still isn’t a good look for the U.S.

I would hope US intelligence had some idea of the ability of the Russian military prior to the invasion of the Ukraine. We certainly spend enough money to have good intelligence.

There is zero doubt that Iran was directly involved in the Gaza attack. Only a small step from there to Russian involvement.

Edited

Putin's bluff was one that could have had real consequences for the world if it wasn't a bluff, not just for Ukraine/USA. It wasn't one you wanted to challenge without serious thought.

I don't even think Putin, much less US intelligence had a true idea of the ineptness of Russia's military until they had to go out there and fight. US intelligence may have had some idea of weaknesses in the Russian military, but no idea of how inept it would really be. Putin and his Generals made some poor decisions in how they ran the supply lines as well.

I think it was not good for Ukraine that they weren't ready for the counteroffensive until early summer. But something wasn't ready, or Zelenka would have had them out there a month or two earlier. That allowed Russia to fully get entrenched as much as anything else did. The world watched them in military photos, making more trenches and laying more mines during that last month or two. Russia would not have been nearly as set for the offensive if it had commenced in early spring. I think there would have been a real opportunity to break thru, if that late start had not occurred.

 

[noble cane]

Edited

Putin's bluff was one that could have had real consequences for the world if it wasn't a bluff, not just for Ukraine/USA. It wasn't one you wanted to challenge without serious thought.

I don't even think Putin, much less US intelligence had a true idea of the ineptness of Russia's military until they had to go out there and fight. US intelligence may have had some idea of weaknesses in the Russian military, but no idea of how inept it would really be. Putin and his Generals made some poor decisions in how they ran the supply lines as well.

I think it was not good for Ukraine that they weren't ready for the counteroffensive until early summer. But something wasn't ready, or Zelenka would have had them out there a month or two earlier. That allowed Russia to fully get entrenched as much as anything else did. The world watched them in military photos, making more trenches and laying more mines during that last month or two. Russia would not have been nearly as set for the offensive if it had commenced in early spring. I think there would have been a real opportunity to break thru, if that late start had not occurred.

Need to re-read your ww2 history... armor is useless in the fall and spring in the Ukraine.. the spring thaws and rains turn the ground to soup and the fall rains turn it back into soup.. major tank battles and offensives were always summer and winter as a result..

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Need to re-read your ww2 history... armor is useless in the fall and spring in the Ukraine.. the spring thaws and rains turn the ground to soup and the fall rains turn it back into soup.. major tank battles and offensives were always summer and winter as a result..

That's why everybody was wondering why they weren't out there in late April and May.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Need to re-read your ww2 history... armor is useless in the fall and spring in the Ukraine.. the spring thaws and rains turn the ground to soup and the fall rains turn it back into soup.. major tank battles and offensives were always summer and winter as a result..

Planning for a major Ukrainian counteroffensive had begun as early as February 2023, with the original intention being to launch it in the spring.[37] However, various factors, including weather and late weapon deliveries to Ukraine, delayed it to summer, as it had not been deemed safe to progress.

The weather was a factor at first, but the weapon deliveries were responsible for the delays continuing past when it was not soup.