Last I heard, they will be bringing in one of those trucks that has the big screen on it, to the tailgate area. To show the game of the week.
Tailgating
- Thread starter Henry Kendall
- Start date
I’ve Been saying this for years. There is very little funding for the band. The university doesn’t value it and even cut some scholarship opportunities for non music majors. So now we’re left with a Oklahoma 3A sized marching band in D1 college football.
I know those kids bust their rears so this is in no way a knock on them. I appreciate the hard work and dedication they have put in over the years.
im not saying we need a 300+ piece band like Oklahoma or Texas have, but around 200+/- would give us the pageantry and sound of a legit college marching band.
I’ve made mention of this many times to the admin through various surveys but nothing has been addressed at all and it continues to get worse.
there are a few hills I’m willing to die on and this is one of them.
They did this during the graham years and it was always cool. Good call on bringing it back.
I agree
I have spoken with the Dean and expressed my concerns and support.
In the late 80's early 90's, they were spending 3 to 5k per student a year on non music scholarships. I'm sure that has at least doubled today. A 200 member band would cost them at a minimum 1.5m per year + expenses. Nearly 2m a year spent on the band is a lot. I'd be happy if they kept it around 125.
One of those situations where we need to decide if we want to put a quality product out there or not.
If we don’t want to fund it, maybe there needs to be alternatives evaluated. There are several nationally ranked/recognized hs bands in the area… maybe we could work some sort of volunteer/early college credit for some of those hs students who would want to participate? We also used to offer credit to TCC students who wanted to participate in the band (we had roughly 20 or so at one point during the graham era).
the band is a major part of a Gameday experience. Just about every other D1 (and many many FCS and D2) institution funds their marching bands and has appropriately sized ensembles. Hell a lot of schools have the band participate in a lot of the tailgating hoopla (brass warmups, drum line cadence/warmups, mini ensembles playing at different tailgate areas, etc). Point is, the band at most institutions is treated like a major piece of the Gameday experience… at TU it’s an afterthought at best.
If we are going to be doing a 200 piece, then I think we have to go for the gusto and make it worth our while, do all of the above.(brass warmups, drum line cadence/warmups, mini ensembles playing at different tailgate areas, etc)
Don’t forget the majorette in the Halloween catsuit. That was quite a hit amongst the dirty old men on here.
Competitive marching band for many of the local high schools is a 6 day a week activity from July through November. I doubt the kids would have the time to take on anything else.
This is also why we no longer invite high school bands to perform at Tulsa games like we did several years ago. Now those groups are competing or rehearsing almost every Saturday and just aren’t interested in adding anything else to their schedules.
I talked about a lot of these topics with the band director, the head of the school of music and the director of financial aid about this time last year, but their hands were tied regarding the availability of funding for non-music majors. I hear that things may be a little better this year but I no longer have a music student to verify it.
You’ll need to raise the tide for all the boats.
A fully funded band really does add atmosphere when done right. But picture in your mind your known universe of coaches you’d like to see interested in the TU job. Now picture TU’s athletic fundraising challenges and budget. And now put yourself in the room with coach who is coaching to leave to go somewhere else (and that’s the model most of you guys want - a young up and comer who will win on the cheap) and ask yourself what you would tell him when we rank near the bottom in the conference in team budget when he asks why we are spending several million dollars a year on something that doesn’t win games and can’t be baked into the price of the ticket. When you get out of that meeting, the President wants to see you. The faculty of music want to know why the school isn’t equally funding the non-marching music students which has sixty some other faculty worked up about their pet project when we’ve got so much money for the band. Think you can find a donor to do dedicated giving for the band to defeat that argument over budgeting? Don’t forget that afternoon meeting you’ve got with the women’s coach of X sport, she’s got a donor coming in to fund her teams trip to Europe and you’ll need to explain to the coach of the men’s team why coaches need to coach and not fundraise and his budget isn’t going up to match that donation to the womens team. And when you get out of that, the University’s fundraising team needs a word on why one of their donors is funding trips to Europe when the school is in the middle of major academics fundraising campaign. Also, their hoity toity donors are starting to mention at their fancy dinners that they don’t need to give a bunch of money to the music program or the college of arts and sciences, if there’s plenty of money for a football band then there must be plenty of money for the orchestra.
There’s more moving parts here than any of us can possibly imagine and even the most sophisticated self made businessman at a huge company would have trouble negotiating without the pitchforks coming out.
We’ve got bigger problems and better solutions than the band. It’s big enough. For now.
A fully funded band really does add atmosphere when done right. But picture in your mind your known universe of coaches you’d like to see interested in the TU job. Now picture TU’s athletic fundraising challenges and budget. And now put yourself in the room with coach who is coaching to leave to go somewhere else (and that’s the model most of you guys want - a young up and comer who will win on the cheap) and ask yourself what you would tell him when we rank near the bottom in the conference in team budget when he asks why we are spending several million dollars a year on something that doesn’t win games and can’t be baked into the price of the ticket. When you get out of that meeting, the President wants to see you. The faculty of music want to know why the school isn’t equally funding the non-marching music students which has sixty some other faculty worked up about their pet project when we’ve got so much money for the band. Think you can find a donor to do dedicated giving for the band to defeat that argument over budgeting? Don’t forget that afternoon meeting you’ve got with the women’s coach of X sport, she’s got a donor coming in to fund her teams trip to Europe and you’ll need to explain to the coach of the men’s team why coaches need to coach and not fundraise and his budget isn’t going up to match that donation to the womens team. And when you get out of that, the University’s fundraising team needs a word on why one of their donors is funding trips to Europe when the school is in the middle of major academics fundraising campaign. Also, their hoity toity donors are starting to mention at their fancy dinners that they don’t need to give a bunch of money to the music program or the college of arts and sciences, if there’s plenty of money for a football band then there must be plenty of money for the orchestra.
There’s more moving parts here than any of us can possibly imagine and even the most sophisticated self made businessman at a huge company would have trouble negotiating without the pitchforks coming out.
We’ve got bigger problems and better solutions than the band. It’s big enough. For now.
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Sounds like band substantially interferes with the life balance of students and questions need to be asked about whether the band exists for student development or the students exist for the adults making money off the operation. And how much more money the kids would have for college spending time working than the value of any scholarship they might pick up if they do enough to serve the interests of those profiting off their practice. And that’s before we start talking about conditioning young kids entering the workplace to believe it’s ok to let your employer take a day off from you away from your family and private development/enjoyment on the promise of a scholarship lie that their hard work with marginal talents will someday pay off for them while the adults reap nearly all the benefits. Nearly all of them are going to work hard and fail based on either being lied to our deceived by self interested and conflicted coaches. And that’s a heck of a message to a kid starting out in the work force. Then there’s the kids who come from religious households that spend 3 to 7 hours in church on Sunday. They are working 7 days a week. No wonder so many kids are over caffeinated and can’t cope with basic life skills while spending their 20’s doing things they should have done at 15.
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i get it - I know there are way more moving pieces than my solutions indicated. I still want the best for us though.
I know the band did have a donor at one point who paid for the band to travel to certain away games and even bought new uniforms for the band back around 2008ish. Hell he even played in the pep band a couple of times at basketball games. I wish we had several of those types of donors who were that invested in the band.
Yep, no easy solutions and most good idea have been wrung out in the wash already. its going to take time, more money and attention in appropriate ways, and sweat equity from the middle and lower tier athletic department staff to turn it around. Be sure to thank them if you see them.
I’m sure they don’t want it, but I would be happy to volunteer my time as I’m sure many here would be willing to as well to help with just about anything needed. I know Rick and others have bigger fish to fry though.
I've heard rumors they may be calling for volunteers to help with greeting, information desk, etc.
We’re getting way off topic, but there are some pretty good perks that come with those long hours.
Performing in the Rose Parade and the Dublin St Patrick’s Day Parade. Playing on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial then laying a wreath at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier. These are just some example of experiences that my kids got to do which likely aren’t available to most teens.
I think you are misinterpreting. That kind of time would not be required for TU marching band. TU can put out a good product that satisfies the needs for a decent performance for football games with much less time than is required in high school.
It's the high schools all competing against each other for perfection, and the latest gimmick/new thing, that requires that kind of time. Is that necessary in high school is another question. But it instills discipline, perfectionist attitudes, sometimes a higher ability in music,(translates to better abilities in thought processing) skills in time management, etc. Those are all things that will benefit the student and the person in their career.
At our local high school, when they have the end of year Senior assembly and hand out a bunch of awards like Valedictorian, 4.0 gpa, perfect attendance, as well as the college scholarship recipients, about 75-80% of those recognized are band kids.
They’re definitely doing something right.
So the other thing about the band is to actually play challenging music, do some challenging drill and make an actual show of the half time show. The dog and pony shows of the last few years that don't showcase the ability of the musicians tend to be ignored by fans. When Prof. Grass (RIP) led the band program, we played challenging music and tried to put out some drum corps style shows with high energy. I had fun performing those shows and hated if we did a special park and blow show with crap music for something like homecoming. I always hated that the band's purpose was football games...and part of that is I grew up in a HS band that football games were basically practice run throughs for competition...and I also had a band director who told the school board and athletic dept. to kiss his ass if it came down to being at a football game or preparing for a competition. I'm not saying that is the purpose of TU's band program, but they should prepare a show that enriches the students in the band. They should offer to perform exhibitions at the local marching band contests when possible. When I marched about 1/3 of the band were non music majors and people not on a band scholarship of any kind. Not sure if that's still the case but it is easy to see the program has not engaged kids coming out of HS for the last several years.
I know you like dci but idk if that’s the best thing for what we’re trying to accomplish here… yes Prof Grass definitely had us play challenging music (Latin jazz typically) but the audience couldn’t have cared less about the drill we did or the difficulties of the music we played. In fact I heard many times “why doesnt the band play something people will recognize?”
125 should be the bare minimum we have on the field. We had around 140 or so at one point and it was decently balanced.
Alright, against my better judgment, this will likely be taken as me taking a go at you, but that's not the way its intended. So apologies all around in advance. And of course, my perspective isn't based on your experience. I dont have the benefit of seeing things from your point of view, because I haven't lived it. That doesn't mean I dont respect that point of view or you. It just means I have a different take, one that too often is ignored on similar topics, specifically youth soccer.
Did you pay for those experiences, or were they gratis as payment in part for your child's dedication and practice to making a band for those directors to compete against each with? Could you have invested that money in something more tangible and lasting for them? $40,000 spread out over 6 years that compounds into interest paid to them when they are 65 looks a lot better to me than taking a trip with your kid to Pasadena in December. Could they have undertaken other activities where they experienced tangible returns on their efforts?
When a young man starts a new business, like mowing lawns, they see the costs and the profits first hand and they keep the tangible results of their labor or move on. Not so with band. Its important for some kids to learn about their own shortcomings, but we tend to excuse that necessity by pointing indirectly to the often intangible achievements of others as valid predictors of how a kid will turn out by doing similar. The typical soccer Dad will tell you his kid is going pro with the same level of awareness and logic as your uncle who smokes two packs a day and claims he knows someone who lived to be age 101 doing the same thing. The reality is that we need to tell kids they should focus on other things around age 12 and they can play clarinet or guitar in their leisure time. Instead, we bilk the family for thousands on the lie that they might earn a scholarship and somehow spending $4K to go to Dallas and Madrid over the summer will make him a better soccer or trombone player.
Some parents even wrap themselves up in it where their own personal idea of success is tied up in the success and experience of their child. And people manipulate the crap out of that for profit. I can't speak for band but this is a real problem for people involved with soccer and cheerleading, so I only assume its true of band. With the exception of Clint Dempsey, you wont find an American player who credits his success on or off the field to his experience playing youth soccer in America. Its natural talent and their own personal dedication that brought their success -- if you define success as getting a college scholarship or pro contract. indeed, most players that go on to play professional soccer and even college soccer are ID'd as having the talent before they are ever coached. But we have this industry that thrives on selling the idea to parents that investing tens of thousands of dollars a year on coaching and competition is the key to developing kids into players. But fewer than 10% of them ever actually develop. So I think its a little disingenuous to suggest that children are high performing because they are in band. Its probably more correct that high performing or ambitious children are competing in multiple ways and band is one of them. Your child does not have a 4.0 because he plays the violin for four years or because you paid someone $10,000 a year to coach him at violin. Kids who get 4.0s are naturally curious and/or extraordinarily dedicated and they find their way to the violin.
Which begs the question that if they are better at other things, why are we/you paying so much for it in money and time?
What percentage of what you paid was salary and benefits for band and band related goods and services personnel? Do they even disclose it? Did you even ask?
And forgive me for going into the personal, but its a valid question, perhaps with good answers on both sides. Why should TU look to donors to finance a large music program, when middle class parents are paying for four to ten years of unnecessary and ancillary band activities at up to $10,000 a year or more, when they could have been saving that money and then paying it to TU in the form of tuition to support a program for the students who are truly talented. Could it be that the reason there isn't enough money in TU's music program is because the program is unable to attract students who can be expected to provide sufficient family contributions to tuition and fees to support the program? Was it was already spent in high school supporting a system where only a small portion of the students ever pursue music beyond high school and the profits are considerable for the coaches and organizers? Why is it parent believe its OK to spend $50,000 on youth soccer or baseball, but the college should be footing the bill after that? Because you brought it up, you say the TU tuition discount has come in handy. Is the difference in tuition equal to or greater than what you have been paying in band fees, travel experiences, wardrobe, etc. over the past six years? Because I talk to parents of very talented soccer players from time to time. They tell me TU is too expensive for them, but what TU would charge them after a partial scholarship and academic/merit scholarship and then the discount I know is less than what they are spending on youth soccer. And we lose that player (and his cash) and the program suffers. Something to think about when you ponder why we are in the situation we are in with local talent in a lot of different programs. And also something to think about if you know kids who are talented and their parents are interested in funding a well rounded education where they get to play and study for the career they will actually pursue.
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The purpose of the marching band is add to the ambiance of the game day atmosphere and act as university ambassadors at donor events. Full stop. We are selling tickets to an experience. The cost of those tickets goes up when you fund a band. They quite rightly should be required to add value equal to or greater than those fixed costs. If you can't play something that intimidates the opposing team, gives us an advantage, creates a sound that fans equate with the program, etc., then you are straying from the group goal into your director's private ambitions. It is not a personal development project for 100 students, though its a bonus if that happens and is a good justification for the considerable cost in putting the kids on the field. This is a multimillion dollar business venture not musical intramurals.
Whether it is USC's Tribute to Troy, Boomer Sooner, or that god awful Charge On by UCF, play something that gets into the opponents head and makes fans think TU. We've never done that and should. What happens at halftime should be entertaining, but shouldn't be something people skip buying hotdogs to watch.
FWIW, I've thought every person I've ever interacted with from the TU band to be very cognizant of these goals and very receptive to improving game day.
That's fine. You can't do it if the actual members of the band are only doing it for the scholarship money and 1/2 of them think it's a waste of their time and effort. They need to buy in as well and see the purpose behind what they're doing because if they don't, then the part about game day atmosphere improving is not going to happen, at least not from the band perspective. Yes, they need to play better and more appropriately timed music in the stands. The same old schtick and the "what the hell are they playing that for" doesn't work and I've always felt the "pep" part of the band has been lacking under the dude currently running things.
Huffy - you’re never going to hurt my feelings so please don’t feel that you’re having a go at me at all.
In our community, there is no fee to the kids for being in the competitive marching band. I understand that this is not the case in some of the other neighboring school districts.
The only fee is a trip fund, which the kids can work off by selling things like fireworks, poinsettias, advertising and even bed mattresses (yes, that’s a very lucrative fundraiser). Parents can also assist by working the concessions stands, etc. Of course there’s also an option to just pay cash if that’s your preference but it’s nowhere near $10k per year.
Tangible or not, these kids are making memories that will last a lifetime.
My oldest daughter joined the Air Force out of high school as has travelled all over, but still says her favorite destination ever was to Ireland with the marching band.
And there’s nothing like seeing you’re schools banner coming down Colorado Blvd in Pasadena on New Year’s morning. It is a big deal.
Finally, my kids attend TU because it is our family school with members dating back to the 1940s. It’s just what we do.
I don't know if you have ever played an instrument, but there are intangible pay offs for having done so. You can read study after study, of left and right brain interacting in ways that are beyond measure, when learning to play an instrument. And in the efforts of marching band in high school there are other benefits some of which I mentioned before, like time management, discipline, playing on a team.(an orchestra/marching band is a 'team' in the musical sense of a team.)
Yes there are payoffs at the expense of the parent and the student, for the avarice of success for a band director and/or a band program. But it is that way in many endeavors, like football in high school and college. That doesn't negate their value to the student/musician, student/athlete, etc. Music has many intangible values, that don't equate so directly as a full scholarship to play football in college. (Many high schoolers don't ever reach that football scholarship that was one of their main goals for playing though.)
Though those values of playing in a group setting, learning how to play an instrument, etc, are less tangible, their value is of no less merit. The expenses and efforts for the value of the program and the lesser value of the student are simply the list of pros and cons. For many students it still is a meritable effort for them, which pays enough dividends in their life, that they would not ever trade that experience away. For most, if they were asked on their death bed do they regret it, the response would be no. It matters not whether they did anything professional in music. Their response would usually be the same.
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Just an added note, band can provide the value of achievement as well. Winning a better chair, winning an individual award, winning as a band, achieving an invitation for your band as a group,(to a bowl game/parade for instance.) are all things that teach you to strive for success in other endeavors.
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I agree, but not sure we have a big enough sound to be intimidating. People have difficulty even standing for the fight song or the alma mater. If you holler or shout at the game some people look at you like you’ve lost your mind. However I do remember a few times when the crowd was big enough to shout Golden then Hurricane pretty impressive.
Go TU
All-State medals are a prized possession in our house, and Superior rating sheets from solo/ensemble contests got the same prime location under a refrigerator magnet as a straight A report card.
And 12 days until football…
Union was about $2500 annually for kids and they could meet that with some fundraising, some was very passive like working a concession stand at OneOK which netter a student about $75 for a net towards their fundraising goal. I believe this fee covered the marching season including supplemental marching staff. Of course there are like 6-7 HS band directors at Union who are all salaried but schools with highly competitive marching bands need a color guard instructor, drill designers and marching techs, and other field show support staff. Travel as well to regional and national competitions (Bands of America) and any other supplemental trips. Union didn't do BOA Grand Nationals last year in lieu of traveling and doing the Macy's Day Parade. My kid chose not to participate in marching band b/c he would have to give up club soccer in the Fall to do so and that wasn't something he was willing to do. Some of the parents I'm sure just pay the cash but most of the kids are probably able to raise a good 75% of their goal if not more with just a little effort...and these kids can start raising that amount and banking it beginning in 6th grade when they can join the Union bands program. So it is definitely doable.
And I don't think anyone is saying TU needs to be "competitive" in that way. But they need to make it worth the students' time and effort. And that is going to be a combination of scholarship and the experience. It's a lot of time and energy and unfortunately many of these students have been social media drawn in to the college band experience as you describe. We've all seen the 100s of YouTube videos of how cool a college marching band can be simply by watching the Ohio State University shows, or Texas A&M's straight line brigade (I personally hate their halftime show). Or USC and the multitude of different songs along with CONQUEST (I am a band nerd and actually own a CD of USC's marching band tunes). TU can do this...there just needs to be someone with just a little creativity and who is willing to challenge what has become the expected to raise the bar.
And I don't think anyone is saying TU needs to be "competitive" in that way. But they need to make it worth the students' time and effort. And that is going to be a combination of scholarship and the experience. It's a lot of time and energy and unfortunately many of these students have been social media drawn in to the college band experience as you describe. We've all seen the 100s of YouTube videos of how cool a college marching band can be simply by watching the Ohio State University shows, or Texas A&M's straight line brigade (I personally hate their halftime show). Or USC and the multitude of different songs along with CONQUEST (I am a band nerd and actually own a CD of USC's marching band tunes). TU can do this...there just needs to be someone with just a little creativity and who is willing to challenge what has become the expected to raise the bar.
