Marshall stays at Wichita
- Thread starter Tu Geo
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He's not going anywhere for a while. Think he ends up being WSU's Mark Few which is a good thing. Andy Katz made a good point about Gonzaga and Wichita State no longer being mid-major programs. He threw VCU in there as well. WSU's history and success are much more storied than those other programs so I can see that. Gonzaga has had about 18 years of success under the current coaching philosophy and tree. VCU's success is much more limited to recent history.
Problem with the labels is what it means in terms of perceptions nationally. You can't throw out a term like "mid-major" and not use "low-major" as well (what an oxymoron that is) and that is essentially what has happened. You have your P5 schools, then Big East, AAC, A-10, MAC and MWC for the next level, and then mid-majors of Sun Belt, C-USA, MVC, WCC, & Colonial, and then everyone else that would be the lower D-1 conferences. Except no one wants to call them the low level conferences...your automatic 13-16 seeds most years. Eliminate the stupid labels from the vernacular and you get more AAC, WCC, MVC teams into the tourney as at larges. It is another way ESPN controls things...it's very subtle but it is very intentional.
I agree that Gonzaga is not a "mid-major" with regard to success, facilities and recruiting. I think you are going to have to see WSU have a run of success without VanVleet and Baker before you can make the same claim about them. They do have nice facilities and they have had a very good three year run. They should be excellenet again next year. We will know a lot more about Marshall and WSU after 2017 and 2018. With regard to VCU, we will see how they maintain their success if Smart does leave for Texas.
You see plenty of "mid-major" schools have a run of success - Southern Illinois, Creighton, Davidson, St. Joe's, etc - built off a particular group of players or a particular coach. It is much more rare to see one maintain it long term over multiple coaches and multiple groups of players. Gonzaga is the most obvious example. Xavier is another. TU kept it going much longer than most until the Phillips debacle.
You see plenty of "mid-major" schools have a run of success - Southern Illinois, Creighton, Davidson, St. Joe's, etc - built off a particular group of players or a particular coach. It is much more rare to see one maintain it long term over multiple coaches and multiple groups of players. Gonzaga is the most obvious example. Xavier is another. TU kept it going much longer than most until the Phillips debacle.
To say Wichita is a better basketball place than Texas is crazy. Texas has been to 16 of the past 17 NCAA Tournaments. Wichita has been to 5 of the past 14 (too lazy to look up prior to that).
Not sure I'm buying the WSU program is over after Baker and Van Vleet are gone.
During WSU's Final Four run the West Region All Tourney Team had a guy named Carl Hall, the West Region MOP was Malcolm Armstead. The Final Four All Tourney Team included Cleanthoney Early.
All those guys are gone WSU is still good. Beat Kansas the best the B-12 had to offer this year.
Time will tell we shall see.
Go TU!!!!
We will see what Marshall thinks next year. If he stays next summer, then he at least believes he can keep it going. I read that he informed Texas at the beginning that it would take somewhere in excess of $3 million per season. Texas immediately moved on with its search.
That right there tells me Texas is not truly serious about big time basketball in Austin. A University with the resources of UT should be hiring the best and brightest up-and-coming head coaches, paying top salary.
Marshall is not just any coach at WSU, he would be a small fish in a big pond at Texas. Wichita State wants to win big and they have gone all in on Marshall.
I can't blame him for staying, he apparently is more interested in building a legacy than being another bit*h for the LHN.
The culture in Austin is not for everyone, some coaches just want to develop young men and coach, not pander to the politics.
TX
This post was edited on 4/3 9:34 AM by texcane1982
I believe Bill Self and Bob Huggins are the only Big 12 HC's making more than $3 mil per yr.
According to this years salaries, only Calipari, Coach K, Pitino, and Izzo earned more than $3.3 mil per year.
Many Agents/Lawyers are drooling over Marshall's raise, a number of high profile HC's are going to get paid.
TX
This post was edited on 4/3 1:19 PM by texcane1982
2015 Salaries
According to this years salaries, only Calipari, Coach K, Pitino, and Izzo earned more than $3.3 mil per year.
Many Agents/Lawyers are drooling over Marshall's raise, a number of high profile HC's are going to get paid.
TX
This post was edited on 4/3 1:19 PM by texcane1982
2015 Salaries
Like I said in previous posts he is very happy in Wichita (3.3 million per yr happy) and he is not going anywhere for a very long time. If you guys have not figured this out yet the guy can flat out coach the game of basketball and is one hell of a recruiter so I believe the shockers will be a top 25 program for a very long time.
Yep
4 straight years selling out a 11K plus arena.
Marshall is "easily" the #1 Celebrity in this town
WSU basketball is the ONLY sport in this town
After beating Kansas, he's almost "God-like" w/ fan adoration
It just proves G5 coaches can continue 2 win & stay successful @ their G5 School
That bods well 4 guys like Coach Haith
Go TU
Wichita St better job than most Big 12 schools
He can definitely coach. I think it is still an open queestion regarding how well he can recruit. Cleanthony Early probably goes to San Diego State if not for the fact that he got stuck in Wichita for a week on his recruiting visit because of a hurricane limiting travel back to his JC. Ron Baker was an invited walk-on at WSU. Fred VanVleet picked WSU over Kent St and Northern Illinois. The question for Marshall is can he start recruiting and getting higher ranked guys at WSU. You can catch lightning in a bottle with a particular class but it is very difficult to be a consistent top 15 team without getting some 4 and 5 star guys. I believe it is unlikely that he can bring those guys in to Wichita which is why I ultimately think he moves on after next year.
Good point, but I think he's ready for a bigger stage and being an addition to the AAC would help him recruit as well with the kind of exposure in this league. If he got the kind of players he has in the Valley with their limited exposure and resources, just think what could happen in the AAC. IMO I think WSU is looking for greener grass like Creighton did.
Originally posted by PhoggyBottom:
He can definitely coach. I think it is still an open queestion regarding how well he can recruit. Cleanthony Early probably goes to San Diego State if not for the fact that he got stuck in Wichita for a week on his recruiting visit because of a hurricane limiting travel back to his JC. Ron Baker was an invited walk-on at WSU. Fred VanVleet picked WSU over Kent St and Northern Illinois. The question for Marshall is can he start recruiting and getting higher ranked guys at WSU. You can catch lightning in a bottle with a particular class but it is very difficult to be a consistent top 15 team without getting some 4 and 5 star guys. I believe it is unlikely that he can bring those guys in to Wichita which is why I ultimately think he moves on after next year.
________________________________
Sounds like u do not have much faith in individual Charisma, respect for ability at one's job, & a basketball landscape that seems to be going slightly against the grain of P5 superiority in football. For TU's sake I hope u are completely wrong.
Shaka Smart is not an exception(in my book), minor to mid level P5 coaches would have gone to Texas in a flash, because it can be a top flight dream assignment. Ego's can get iin the way with top ten schools whether it's VCU or Pittsburg, or any # of schools in this type of situation.
This post was edited on 4/3 12:19 PM by Gmoney4WW
He can definitely coach. I think it is still an open queestion regarding how well he can recruit. Cleanthony Early probably goes to San Diego State if not for the fact that he got stuck in Wichita for a week on his recruiting visit because of a hurricane limiting travel back to his JC. Ron Baker was an invited walk-on at WSU. Fred VanVleet picked WSU over Kent St and Northern Illinois. The question for Marshall is can he start recruiting and getting higher ranked guys at WSU. You can catch lightning in a bottle with a particular class but it is very difficult to be a consistent top 15 team without getting some 4 and 5 star guys. I believe it is unlikely that he can bring those guys in to Wichita which is why I ultimately think he moves on after next year.
________________________________
Sounds like u do not have much faith in individual Charisma, respect for ability at one's job, & a basketball landscape that seems to be going slightly against the grain of P5 superiority in football. For TU's sake I hope u are completely wrong.
Shaka Smart is not an exception(in my book), minor to mid level P5 coaches would have gone to Texas in a flash, because it can be a top flight dream assignment. Ego's can get iin the way with top ten schools whether it's VCU or Pittsburg, or any # of schools in this type of situation.
This post was edited on 4/3 12:19 PM by Gmoney4WW
I definitely have respect for his coaching and development. The point was, no matter how good your coaching and development are, you can't consistently have final 4 or elite 8 caliber teams (whether you get there or not) without some 4 and 5 star guys. I think it is very doubtful that Marshall (or anyone else) can consistently do that at Wichita St. That is why I ultimately think he will move on once Baker and VanVleet are gone.
With regard to your P5 comment, I do not see how that is accurate. First, there is a subgroup in basketball that does not exist in football. While they are not affiliated with P5 conferences, UConn, Villanova, Georgetown to name a few have resources, facilities, reputation, tradition, recruiting abilities, etc to match virtually any P5 school. If you are considering those schools as an example of a power shift, that is off base because those programs have been major powers for a long time. Second, it is obviously much easier for a non-P5 college basketball team to compete at a high level than it is in college football. That is why there are always so many upsets in the tournament. But, I do not see that non-P5 teams and non-traditional powers are any more successful now than they were 10 or 20 years ago.
With regard to your P5 comment, I do not see how that is accurate. First, there is a subgroup in basketball that does not exist in football. While they are not affiliated with P5 conferences, UConn, Villanova, Georgetown to name a few have resources, facilities, reputation, tradition, recruiting abilities, etc to match virtually any P5 school. If you are considering those schools as an example of a power shift, that is off base because those programs have been major powers for a long time. Second, it is obviously much easier for a non-P5 college basketball team to compete at a high level than it is in college football. That is why there are always so many upsets in the tournament. But, I do not see that non-P5 teams and non-traditional powers are any more successful now than they were 10 or 20 years ago.
Though our successes were phenomenal when we reached the elite 8 and almost reached the final 4, I don't see them as being at the level of Butler, Gonzaga, or even Wichita St, & VCU, as far as the level reached or the time that level was maintained. And I believe that is primarily because the Bill Self's of that time are realizing they can stay with their school and build it up, for a longer time, and achieve some semblance of more equal salary, reputation, recruiting ability than they could then.,
Biggest question at this point is: If TU had dropped football as it considered doing when Wichita State did and TU at that time had a better basketball program than WSU, Would TU have been at this level in basketball by now?
PS.. We looked at Marshall in 2000 when he was at Winthrop and a guy named Peterson was at App. State. Winthrop and App. State both went to the NCAA that year and our AD thought Peterson was the one for us........
PS.. We looked at Marshall in 2000 when he was at Winthrop and a guy named Peterson was at App. State. Winthrop and App. State both went to the NCAA that year and our AD thought Peterson was the one for us........
The idea that Gonzaga was way ahead of TU was not an accepted view on this board after Self left. Gonazaga hadn't established itself and TU was either in the NCAA's or winning the NIT. Ash, I and others debated what made a successful model off an on for a couple of years. Gonzaga is larger, Jesuit, but in a smaller, more remote community (Spokane), so recruiting there wouldn't be easy especially with area kids having PAC 12 options the way OK kids have Big 12 options.
The biggest difference seems to the long term commitment of an excellent coach and a successful strategy of recruiting overseas which enabled them to build a strong, dependable name.
Don't know as much about WSU.
The biggest difference seems to the long term commitment of an excellent coach and a successful strategy of recruiting overseas which enabled them to build a strong, dependable name.
Don't know as much about WSU.
Sorry for chiming in, but I think u may have misunderstood me. I did not say Gonzaga was way ahead of us then. I meant they are way ahead of us now, thanks to the precedents formed by the the Mark Few's, Greg Marshall's, Shaka Smart's, Brad Steven's. And those things for instance were made more possible by several good hires in a row at institutions like Butler(Matta, Lickliter), VCU(Capel), Wichita ST(Turgeon) etc. It is too bad we didn't have Richardson, Smith, & Self in a row. Mabye then Self might have set a precedent and let the boosters keep him here a couple of four years longer.
Read My EDIT
This post was edited on 4/3 4:14 PM by Gmoney4WW
Read My EDIT
This post was edited on 4/3 4:14 PM by Gmoney4WW
I think not. WSU dropped football in 1986 & sucked @ basketball for most of the next 20 years. A big part of that was being tied to a poor quality MVC for much of that 20 years. Tulsa's football program allowed TU basketball to move up to a WAC in the 1990s that included very good teams like New Mexico, UNLV & Utah. That helped the rise of TU basketball in the late 90s & early 2000s. I know the WAC split hurt, but Tark's Fresno teams still had more NBA talent than any MVC teams of that era.
TU didn't take advantage of playing in CUSA with Calipari's Memphis teams, but it wasn't the football program's fault, it was our coach.
Then 2 years ago, thanks almost entirely to our football program's success, we were invited to join a great basketball conference, the AAC. I promise you that WSU fans wish they could be in our conference. Playing UCONN, Memphis, Cincy, Temple, SMU & Houston is a huge advantage over playing Evansville, Loyola, Indiana State, Drake, etc
WSU has finally succeeded in basketball DESPITE dropping football, not because of dropping football. They have succeeded because they hit the lottery when they hired Gregg Marshall, a great coach who loves the underdog role. Also, having the Koch brothers get behind their program didn't hurt !
There is one thing for sure, wo football, we wouldn't be in the AAC nor would we have been in the WAC or CUSA - all much better, more high profile conferences than the MV. Also, we probably wouldn't have a lot of the facilities on campus we now have. There are also a lot of WSU folks who would take our football team/program off our hands in a NY minute if they could. .
This post was edited on 4/4 12:25 AM by rabidTU
Gmoney - I completely disagree regarding Butler, WSU and VCU. All three reached a final four. TU reached an elite 8. Otherwise, TU compares favorably to all three. TU was basically the current Butler minus the final fours. Butler had the benefit of playing most of the past 20 years in an awful conference. TU would have had more appearances and better seeds than they ended up having if they had played in a comparable conference. I think you are forgetting just how good TU was. This is the comparison of TUs stretch from 1982 to 2003 with the others over last 20 years or so:
TU
13 NCAAs in 22 years (1982 to 2003)
Best stretch 5 NCAAs in 6 years in 1980s and 8 in 10 years in late 1990s and early 2000s
7 first round wins
3 sweet 16s
1 elite 8
2 NIT titles
8 conference titles in 22 years
WSU
12 NCAAs in history of the school
5 NCAAs in last 26 years (all in last 9 years)
4 first round wins
3 sweet 16s
1 elite 8
1 final four
1 NIT title
4 conference titles in last 26 years
Butler
12 in last 23 years
8 first round wins
4 sweet 16s
2 elite 8s
2 final fours
10 conference titles in last 23 years
VCU
9 NCAAs in last 20 years (8 in last 12 years)
4 first round wins in last 20 years
1 sweet 16
1 elite 8
1 final four
5 conference titles in last 20 years
TU
13 NCAAs in 22 years (1982 to 2003)
Best stretch 5 NCAAs in 6 years in 1980s and 8 in 10 years in late 1990s and early 2000s
7 first round wins
3 sweet 16s
1 elite 8
2 NIT titles
8 conference titles in 22 years
WSU
12 NCAAs in history of the school
5 NCAAs in last 26 years (all in last 9 years)
4 first round wins
3 sweet 16s
1 elite 8
1 final four
1 NIT title
4 conference titles in last 26 years
Butler
12 in last 23 years
8 first round wins
4 sweet 16s
2 elite 8s
2 final fours
10 conference titles in last 23 years
VCU
9 NCAAs in last 20 years (8 in last 12 years)
4 first round wins in last 20 years
1 sweet 16
1 elite 8
1 final four
5 conference titles in last 20 years
I'll agree with Phoggy. Butlers success has been recent, same with VCU. Wichita State has had a longer history of success with a dry spell. Gonzaga has prolonged its recent success because of having a stable head coach in Few. TU was Gonzaga before Gonzaga was. Problem is we had a dry spell of 10+ yrs where there was nothing and little hope moving forward. We should be back to our 1994-2000 level soon.
Reason everyone compared VCU and Butler to those mid-majors who can no longer be called mid-majors is because they went to the Final Four. Their success is not as pro-longe. If Butler can continue their success for 4-5 more years and VCU can do so with the new coach then they can move on. Haith will need to continue our success for 4-5 yrs for us to reach BP (before Phillips) levels and be considered a national player again.
Reason everyone compared VCU and Butler to those mid-majors who can no longer be called mid-majors is because they went to the Final Four. Their success is not as pro-longe. If Butler can continue their success for 4-5 more years and VCU can do so with the new coach then they can move on. Haith will need to continue our success for 4-5 yrs for us to reach BP (before Phillips) levels and be considered a national player again.
But we might be in the Big East with Creighton and Villanova......
Sorry, but I think the AAC trumps any mention of the current BE. Besides there's a lot more interest in SMU, Tulane, Memphis and Houston than Villanova and Creighton and it'll always be that way IMO. But just ask WSU fans what they think and you'll get an answer to that pretty quick. Some folks there have been wanting FB back for decades. They envy US in that regard.Originally posted by I.I.:
But we might be in the Big East with Creighton and Villanova......And without football, we could afford Baseball again......We can compete for a National Championship easier in Baseball and Basketball than we ever will in Football. I also don't see us being dominant in football over OU and OSU whereas it is and has been possible (for short times) in baseball and basketball. (Just trying to stir up the football fanatics and the "revive baseball" addicts.) !
Wichita St really does not have much history of success. They had a 4 NCAAs in 8 years stretch in the 1980s and are currently in a 5 tourneys in 9 year stretch. Otherwise, they have made 3 NCAAs in the remainder of their history.
Thats still a pretty good stretch of winning. Its a lot better than many of the schools we play in the AAC. And stats can also be misleading to a degree. For instance ORU has the same number of elite eights we do. If I left that on the board it would sound like ORU and TU are similar which is not the case - historically.
As a huge Kansas supporter some of your comments about WSU are kind of hard to take seriously. Your team just lost to WSU in the Tourney and Kansas has openly refused to play WSU in a series.
What ever you may think of Wichita they are the best team in Kansas this year.
And time will tell how good WSU is in the future.
GO TU!!!!
TU Geo,
What about my statement was incorrect? They were good for a stretch in the 1980s and they have been good in the 2010s. Otherwise, in all the other years of their existence, they have been to 4 tournaments. They are not Gonzaga or Butler or Xavier or Temple or Tulsa. There is no long stretch of winning in their history. With regard to being the best team in Kansas last year, you won't get any arguments from me. They may be the best team in Kansas again next year. I am not sure what that has to do with anything though. There have been times when Wake Forest was the best team in North Carolina. It sure as hell didn't mean they were a better program or had a better chance of future success than Duke or UNC.
What about my statement was incorrect? They were good for a stretch in the 1980s and they have been good in the 2010s. Otherwise, in all the other years of their existence, they have been to 4 tournaments. They are not Gonzaga or Butler or Xavier or Temple or Tulsa. There is no long stretch of winning in their history. With regard to being the best team in Kansas last year, you won't get any arguments from me. They may be the best team in Kansas again next year. I am not sure what that has to do with anything though. There have been times when Wake Forest was the best team in North Carolina. It sure as hell didn't mean they were a better program or had a better chance of future success than Duke or UNC.
WSU is a no brainer. The AAC has several teams that aren't anywhere close to WSU in terms of notoriety, success, history and revenue potential. WSU has an on campus FB stadium (now used for track) and doesn't even play the game anymore - USF, Memphis, Temple play FB and don't even have one near campus. Memphis doesn't have a MBB arena on campus - WSU has a state of the art facility on campus. WSU's Eck stadium would atuomatically be the best baseball stadium in the AAC and they even have an IPF for baseball.
WSU has acumulated credits and the AAC outside of UCONN, hasn't done much. If you look at the strong MBB schools in the AAC, WSU surpasses almost all. In the last two years, only AAC teams UCONN, Cincy, SMU and TU have gone to the NCAA tournament. During that time WSU has gone to the dance every year since 2011 and has a final four in that resume'. I can think of at least 6 teams in the league that have basically contributed nothing to the AAC so far in MBB. We need WSU as much as they need us IMO.
Oh, one last thing is they just proved they are the best team in Kansas this year.
This post was edited on 4/6 5:51 PM by rabidTU
WSU has acumulated credits and the AAC outside of UCONN, hasn't done much. If you look at the strong MBB schools in the AAC, WSU surpasses almost all. In the last two years, only AAC teams UCONN, Cincy, SMU and TU have gone to the NCAA tournament. During that time WSU has gone to the dance every year since 2011 and has a final four in that resume'. I can think of at least 6 teams in the league that have basically contributed nothing to the AAC so far in MBB. We need WSU as much as they need us IMO.
Oh, one last thing is they just proved they are the best team in Kansas this year.
This post was edited on 4/6 5:51 PM by rabidTU
Nobody disputes that they were the best team in Kansas this year. Their 2nd or 3rd best team in school history was better than KU's worst team in 10+ years. Yippee.
Regardless, WSU brings nothing to the American. They aren't going to increase basketball TV revenue because they are the 3rd or 4th most popular team in a low population state. Further, their current success is built almost entirely on one recruiting class. That class will be completely gone after next year. If WSU goes back to an NIT program after that, the American has added another mouth to feed with no monetary benefit.
Regardless, WSU brings nothing to the American. They aren't going to increase basketball TV revenue because they are the 3rd or 4th most popular team in a low population state. Further, their current success is built almost entirely on one recruiting class. That class will be completely gone after next year. If WSU goes back to an NIT program after that, the American has added another mouth to feed with no monetary benefit.
Then by that logic, the AAC should never have allowed TU in the conference. At least WSU can beat Kansas in the B12. We can't even win the battle for Tulsa. There is a good argument in this state that TU is the 5th best team in Oklahoma. And how would having a recent Final Four school in the conference hurt it? If WSU falls apart after their Junior class graduates, then so might we and the AAC is primarily a junior heavy league as well. Lots of teams face that. But its hard to see a final four team who just rehired their coach falling apart forever. Evidently Marshall doesn't think thats going to be the case.
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