Afghanistan 2021...
- Thread starter noble cane
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Probably is already happening to keep the Taliban letting Americans through. They won’t call it paying a ransom but that’s what it is.
If you weren’t going to get rid of Trump with the 25th you won’t get rid of anyone with it.
But if we did, I doubt any of those nations would immediately collapse at this point. But you’re not wrong. Proper nation building is not a short term project. Problem was in Afghanistan, we hadn‘t even really started yet.
As URedskin pointed out, it’s not that the forces we trained were ill-equipped or poorly trained. It’s that they saw the writing on the wall, and decided they didn’t want to be up against the wall to show support for a barely functioning government rife with corruption.
We trained ground forces well. What we did not do well was build any other aspect of their government structure to root out corruption, nepotism, and incompetence. It‘s not just about having a decent army, it’s also about having something that the individuals in that army thinks is worth fighting for when the crap hits the fan. We failed, as usual, to consider that. We thought we could go in, train police and troops, build a few schools, and call it a day.
There’s enough blame to go around on this one. Congress, Biden, Trump, Obama, and Bush all own a piece of it.
I assume it is something more along the lines of “Hey, we need you to peaceably let our people out even if it takes a little longer than planned. We’ll get our personnel out one way or the other, but I hope you like hundreds of random drone strikes against your leaders for the next five years if you continue to make this hard for us. But no boots on the ground, as promised.”
At least, that’s what I would do. Given that the head of the CIA just met with one of there leaders, I am assuming something along those lines is the angle they are taking.
For all of Trump’s issues (and there were many) he would stand in front of the press and take questions during a crisis. Biden’s continued refusal to answer questions has become an embarrassment. Guess maybe better than him actually taking unscripted questions?
Would hope that's the case, but if we are able to apply that kind of pressure we should be able to stop them from extorting thousands of dollars from Americans trying to get through the checkpoints as well.
Really didn't have to be this way. I know two that live just outside of Kandahar that are good as dead.
He would stand in front of the press and take questions and then give bogus answers about ingesting bleach. I would much rather someone give scripted answers than answers that were actually detrimental to public health and safety. There’s nothing wrong with putting out a tailored answer and avoiding gotcha questions.
Christ. How many interpreters did we have? We’ve airlifted thousands of Afghans out already.
Our President should take questions during a crisis…period. Hell….give scripted answers if that’s all you’re intellectually capable of but give answers. The constant making a statement then running off the stage is downright embarrassing at this point. Every President in my lifetime would take questions during a crisis except for this one.
Lots. And while I definitely do support getting any Afghan out that wants to, unfortunately most of the people we’ve been taking are not our interpreters. Many are in Kabul and unable to get through Taliban checkpoints because they’re being hunted and many are scattered throughout the country. And now unfortunately many that did make it to the airport are being told no because we are sticking to the deadline and are (correctly) prioritizing Americans.
Honestly, I wouldn't call this a crisis. At least not for the US... yet. If Americans over there end up being trapped... then it becomes a crisis. As far as taking questions, he has taken questions at some points. You just didn't like the questions he took (which is understandable). What was worse was not giving a press conference for over a year.
Figured if CNN called it a “crisis” you wouldn’t take issue with the description.
US holding direct and daily talks with Taliban in effort to ease Biden's Afghanistan crisis
While the US State Department continues to engage in high-level diplomatic talks with the Taliban in the neutral setting of Doha, Qatar, as it has for the past year, the real negotiations have moved to the chaotic streets of Kabul in recent days, where American military commanders are in...
www.google.com
I can't imagine how hard it is for you to watch this haphazard withdrawal. Obviously the withdrawal itself has gone quite poorly and could have been managed a lot better. Biden bears most of the blame for that.
Putting that aside, we were obviously in a bad position where the government collapsed within a matter of days without US backing, and the blame for that goes way way way back. I am curious for your perspective as to what we could have done better during the last twenty years so that we might have avoided this position in the first place. I've given some of my opinions, but I am just a guy with an internet connection and no real connection to the armed forces or Afghanistan.
To be fair, the undisputed clickbaitiest news source of them all would label an orange juice shortage a crisis if they estimated it would generate 3% more page views.Figured if CNN called it a “crisis” you wouldn’t take issue with the description.
US holding direct and daily talks with Taliban in effort to ease Biden's Afghanistan crisis
While the US State Department continues to engage in high-level diplomatic talks with the Taliban in the neutral setting of Doha, Qatar, as it has for the past year, the real negotiations have moved to the chaotic streets of Kabul in recent days, where American military commanders are in...
But the point is well taken, and FWIW, I think the situation is fairly described as a crisis. If it weren’t for the even worse domestic crisis of COVID, this would dominate headlines for months.
I’m no strategist, I was just a lowly enlisted guy so I’m not going to say I have the answer that would have made everything turn out ok after 20 years or even after 40 years. I would just say that my idea of what victory looked like was never in line with what our leaders said we could do and that my patience and threshold for American sacrifice in Afghanistan is higher than most. The Jihadis were always prepared for a multi-generational war and US leaders never had that resolve and never leveled with the country that that’s what it would take. In that sense it was always doomed.
I joined because I thought it was worthwhile to keep the bad guys busy and hold onto what we took from them. While I was there I embraced the fact that we were patrolling villages so girls could go to school, handing out supplies, tossing food to malnourished kids, etc. Things that lots of people would probably think are corny to care about felt like a real purpose to be there beyond any strategic interest. The place is horrible and backwards (a 7 year old was beheaded in Zhari while I was deployed there) but keeping kids from being beheaded by savages to me is worth doing even at a very high cost. We don’t have the means to go invade every country where bad things happen, but we were already there and throwing people to the wolves when we didn’t have to just wasn’t a choice I could ever convince myself of.
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As to your last point, I don't believe their country will every grow past the tribalism that results in atrocities with us playing the role of boogeyman to a significant number of Islamic faithful in Afghanistan and Pakistan. They need to be able to find their own way forward, and when a 'good' side asks us for help, we will help, but from afar.
I don't like CNN. I don't watch CNN or read CNN if I can help it. As far as a 'Crisis' goes, I just prefer to reserve the term for events where there is an actual imminent threat to the safety of American citizens. While you could argue that it might be in the cards for Americans trapped in Afghanistan, that's not yet the situation. The bigger situation is trying to maintain the trust of our smaller allies.Figured if CNN called it a “crisis” you wouldn’t take issue with the description.
US holding direct and daily talks with Taliban in effort to ease Biden's Afghanistan crisis
While the US State Department continues to engage in high-level diplomatic talks with the Taliban in the neutral setting of Doha, Qatar, as it has for the past year, the real negotiations have moved to the chaotic streets of Kabul in recent days, where American military commanders are in...
A bumbling idiot(Trump) and a senile citizen are different but equally negative in the nuance of their policies and how they are revealed to the public. We are certainly are not getting the transparency the democratic party always argues for.
I say this from direct experience with my stroke, and presently seeing the person I am taking care of every day, go gradually into dementia. Even with his full capacities there would be errors in how he or any past present or future individual handles things as the POTUS. Those present errors are magnified.
He is working with a sawtoothed brain that is missing varying teeth. This is in the first 8 months of his term. It will get way worse by year 4. I believe he is probably already at the level of senility that Reagan suffered in the last year or so of his 8 years in office. The people around Reagan were pretty good at providing cover for Reagan, probably because he allowed them to do so. Either Biden isn't allowing his advisors that latitude, or his dementia is worse, or the advisors are less able. I figure it is some combination of all of the above.
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One thing that does complicate my feelings a little bit is the same people, political and military, executing this shItshow withdrawal are the ones that would be executing a poorly defined mission had we chose to stay. No good choices there.
The bumbling senile president theme seems pretty strong for some here. What is the evidence those claims are based on besides assumptions about his age? His age isn’t much different than the age of some posters here who evidently still think their judgement is solid.
Does anyone think that Trump would have executed the pullout any better especially given his agreement to an even earlier May 1 deadline, and Steven Millers anti muslim immigration stance? Biden has been more successful in dealing with a sharply divided Congress than Trump and arguably Obama.
Admittedly I do not miss the constant blaming, anger, and self promotion that characterized the previous administration.
Does anyone think that Trump would have executed the pullout any better especially given his agreement to an even earlier May 1 deadline, and Steven Millers anti muslim immigration stance? Biden has been more successful in dealing with a sharply divided Congress than Trump and arguably Obama.
Admittedly I do not miss the constant blaming, anger, and self promotion that characterized the previous administration.
I hope the reason for his bizarre behavior, incompetence, and seeming lack of situational awareness is senility. Otherwise he’s just a pos like his predecessor. Yelling “that was 4 or 5 days ago!” at an interviewer for mentioning that a 17 year old fell to his death clinging to a US plane does not strike me as something a person who is well would say. Someone who fully understood the implication of what he was saying would know that that would disgust even his most loyal defenders in the press.
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Evacuations continuing to pick up and rescue operations taking place. Gonna be hard to get every American, but starting to look less dire. Lots of the 60K ish SIV’s will likely be on their own
Aside from listening to him speak (if you can call it that) on numerous occasions I suppose I have none
The Taliban would like us to believe their HR department will be conducting sensitivity training
Well, yeah. It's why Trump negotiated with the Taliban last year in the first place. You don't negotiate with a party unless you recognize that they have negotiatiing power.
I think everyone knew they would go on the offensive this year and that they were likely to take over most/all of the country. What surprised everyone and left us flat-footed was how quickly it actually happened. Think: If the Afghan Army were successfully tying up the Taliban in the mountains somewhere for even a few weeks, we wouldn't be having this crisis. We'd be having a much more orderly evacuation. There'd be crowds at the airport, and maybe even some panic, but none of these worries about whether the Taliban will just start executing people left behind at midnight on Sept. 1 (or maybe even before, at the rate they are going).
Of course, pulling tools like the ones you cite didn't help them to hang on and fight.
Yeah and it does point to the bigger problem, which is that we helped them build a modern military dependent on the same technology and personnel we’re dependent on but apparently did not have the intention of allowing them to use it without our presence. So you either stay forever holding their hands or condemn them to defeat.
Building a ‘modern military’ among a people who don’t have widespread access to modern civilian technology might not be the best idea. It’s also a lesson to our military to become less reliant on our gizmos and gadgets because we need to be able to fight without them if need be.
If you trained the Afghans to be able to use strategy and technology available to militaries in WWII / Korea / Vietnam they might have won the civil war after we bombed the Taliban into hiding.
It’s one thing to train. Everyone gets trained in basic battle drills and planning squad and platoon assaults. Even the Taliban. It’s another thing to try to do this blind against an enemy that rarely shows itself in numbers and do this without end. You’d end up with a shortage of US soldiers pretty quick if we were engaged in what felt like a lost cause and taking the same casualties the ANA take. Add to this not really getting paid and you end up with the equivalent of the US militia during the revolutionary war. George Washington hated our militia and commented often on their lack of discipline, unreliability, and tendency to flee battles. The confidence of having overwhelming tech and air superiority is important. People like the Taliban don’t have to worry so much about morale because the glory is in the dying.
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No it is not based on his age. But if you think you can be believed with that flip remark you are part of the problem. I have friends who are older than Biden and are sharp as a tack. He is a bumbling president and senile is a term probably not describing it correctly. But the term will do.
We all do silly things from time to time, well not WATU of course.
But we are not all the Presdient of the United States. We don't have access to Nuclear Launch codes. Hopefully Biden doesn't. If watching Biden doesn't make you nervous then your party loyalty out weighs you common sense.
I believe this is what Aston would consider as an example of "Circling the Wagons"
The confidence of having overwhelming air support is a crutch when you don’t have the ability to sustain the air support without big brother helping you.
To date I haven’t seen one report that made any Afghan military force look like a cohesive military unit capable of any significantly coordinated defensive operations. That’s not through lack of trying on the part of NATO. We tried to train them, but their cultural heritage doesn’t foster the same philosophy of military discipline that ours does. I don’t think helicopters with Missile systems were going be enough to permanently compensate for units of men who had little knowledge of how to actually function as soldiers. These guys were at many times worse than colonial militia.
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