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Afghanistan 2021...

Holy hell….The POTUS just admitted he’s been instructed to call on only certain people to ask questions….and he’s still making zero sense even though he’s obviously been provided the questions beforehand. Not only did he admit to being instructed to call on certain people he add “as usual”. Is this really happening ?
 
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Holy hell….The POTUS just admitted he’s been instructed to call on only certain people to ask questions….and he’s still making zero sense even though he’s obviously been provided the questions beforehand.
He just gave what I thought was nice speech, and he is obviously very tired and emotional. But he's answered every question.

The questioners are getting up one by one and asking their questions, so this was probably an agreed upon method to prevent all the reporters from shouting over each other and give the proceeding some dignity.

Seriously, this is heavy stuff, and you are focused on the fact that the POTUS is calling on the reporters in a way you don't like? You would prefer him to call on only the ones he wants?

I don't know if Biden is losing it or not. But whatever is or isn't happening with him, he seems with it enough today. Just tired, which is expected and humanizing.
 
I don’t blame him for sobbing. However, why are you following instructions on who to call on for questions? I know the answer but to admit it was surreal.
 
That last reporter was definitely not a "friendly" reporter, so enough with the conspiracy theories.

Lawpoke, there were people saying the same kinds of things about Trump. IE, he's lost his marbles, about to be 25th-ed, he can barely hold it together for press conferences and only calls on friendlies, and on and on. People would harp on a slurred sentence, a non-sequitor response, or whatever slim evidence they could find to justify their preconceived notions of the guy.

Is Trump senile or just plain crazy? Maybe, I dunno. Mostly I just thought Trump was kind of a stupid asshole that was really bad at press conferences.

When I watch Biden, I see another guy who is just really not very good at press and has always had problems with public speaking and giving impulsive answers that get him into trouble. Is he losing his marbles? Again, maybe, I dunno. But I do think you should ask yourself why you are coming off to me the same way that "Trump Derangement Syndrome" people did.
 
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No more training tribesmen who don’t want to be soldiers

I think that is something The John Crow South would say about black people.

It is okay to admit you will always defend what a democrat and/or disagree with most here on the situation in Kabul. It isn't okay to refer to a group of people who are absolutely not tribesmen.

Also, you can disagree while being a bit more respectful to those posting on here who served in the military.

I am not a military expert, not even a novice, but even I can see and admit many many mistakes were made in the past months or years in Afghanistan that have led to what is now happening. I won't blame anyone because I have no idea how many individuals are at fault in our government and military. However, it is unfortunate and worries me that our officials are willing to work with the Taliban, who have committed countless War Crimes.
 
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Trump has brain worms for sure
I mean, it wouldn't shock me, but I've never seen him do or say anything that wasn't also pretty consistent with him simply being a very profoundly dumb and lazy person with an enormous ego (edit: and absolutely no scruples).
 
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He just gave what I thought was nice speech, and he is obviously very tired and emotional. But he's answered every question.

The questioners are getting up one by one and asking their questions, so this was probably an agreed upon method to prevent all the reporters from shouting over each other and give the proceeding some dignity.

Seriously, this is heavy stuff, and you are focused on the fact that the POTUS is calling on the reporters in a way you don't like? You would prefer him to call on only the ones he wants?

I don't know if Biden is losing it or not. But whatever is or isn't happening with him, he seems with it enough today. Just tired, which is expected and humanizing.
Trump is an arrogant ass who was used to “yes” people. His answers were rambling and often nonsensical. The press was often openly hostile during question and answer sessions. I believe he even enjoyed the banter due to his ego. There is no chance anyone was telling him who he could call on. He did what he wanted which proved one of his greatest weaknesses. I see Biden as the complete opposite. He does what his handlers instruct him to do. There’s no doubt in my mind he went off script with the last reporter. Didn’t go well and he quickly ended the presser.

For the record, I hope our Presidential standard going forward won’t be Trump. He was an outlier. We should expect better than Trump. A lot better
 
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For the record, I hope our Presidential standard going forward won’t be Trump. He was an outlier. We should expect better than Trump. A lot better
Couldn’t have said it better myself. One of, if not, the worst Presidents in US history.
 
Bgawk!

Also, war is famously, nothing like chess. In chess you can see your pieces but you can also see all of your opponents pieces and all of their available moves and strategies. Eisenhower played bridge and said it was more comparable.


A more accessible link https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/c31ffe52/files/uploaded/ACBL - Eisenhower Bridge.pdf
Always preferred poker to bridge..but then nobody played bridge for money other than my grandma..

Nf6
 
Anyone have any idea why he’s communicating with our military leaders by writing letters and not that little device invented 150 years ago? What a weird way to communicate in 2021.
 
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Trump is an arrogant ass who was used to “yes” people. His answers were rambling and often nonsensical. The press was often openly hostile during question and answer sessions. I believe he even enjoyed the banter due to his ego. There is no chance anyone was telling him who he could call on. He did what he wanted which proved one of his greatest weaknesses. I see Biden as the complete opposite. He does what his handlers instruct him to do. There’s no doubt in my mind he went off script with the last reporter. Didn’t go well and he quickly ended the presser.

For the record, I hope our Presidential standard going forward won’t be Trump. He was an outlier. We should expect better than Trump. A lot better
That's fair, and I don't mean to relitigate his presidency. I agree that he called on who he wanted to, but that wasn't really my point.

My point was that Biden is bad at pressers, full stop. He has been very careful with them during his campaign and his presidency. The simple explanation is that he knows this is a sore spot, and he and his team wish to avoid the embarrassment that would surely ensure whenever he goes off script. He has a long and storied history of saying weird or bizarre things.

I've seen hundreds of really smart people give speeches or technical discussions in my line of work, and there have been a notable few of them that are brilliant but are absolutely terrible when you get them up on a stage in front of people. Suddenly they stumble over words or forget half their life's work. Some are not native English speakers and even if they are on point, they say weird things or are difficult to understand. So I suppose I have been trained to look past that as much as possible and focus on what is being said while filtering out fumbled sentences and weird segues.

Maybe my own experiences aren't allowing me to see something that is obvious to all of you. It's possible. But to me, he's just a notably bad public speaker for a politician.

Is that extra carefulness that surrounds his public appearances actually to his benefit? Or is it letting rumors of ill health pervade? Is he worse than he's ever been before and some of this cautiousness is there to just keep that from becoming obvious? That's the insinuation, but I dunno. It's just speculation, and I haven't actually seen anything to make me feel like he's checked out.

FWIW, I do agree that he should go off script more often, and that the tight leash is hurting more than helping.
 
Anyone have any idea why he’s communicating with our military leaders by writing letters and not that little device invented 150 years ago? What a weird way to communicate in 2021.
Possibly security concerns if classified information is involved. There are classified communications lines, but it's unwieldy and if they are in the DC area it might be easier to have someone hand-carry things over.
 
Possibly security concerns if classified information is involved. There are classified communications lines, but it's unwieldy and if they are in the DC area it might be easier to have someone hand-carry things over.
Pretty unsettling if the United States doesn’t have the capability to have secure phone communications within our own borders between the President and those with which he needs to speak. Hand carrying letters from place to place without the opportunity to ask questions and obtain feedback seems like a form of communication we would have seen hundreds of years ago.
 
Pretty unsettling if the United States doesn’t have the capability to have secure phone communications within our own borders between the President and those with which he needs to speak. Hand carrying letters from place to place without the opportunity to ask questions and obtain feedback seems like a form of communication we would have seen hundreds of years ago.
I don't disagree and I am just speculating.

I only know that I have a classified desktop workstation, classified email, and a safe, but I don't have a classified phone and neither does anyone I know. Even sending an encrypted email off the local red network gets weird.

Edit: I would certainly hope and expect that the President and top brass have better communication networks for this stuff than I do, but was trying to think of any reason the POTUS would be communicating primarily by written letters, which hopefully, he isn’t.
 
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my guess is he’s just an old dude describing email
That makes a lot of sense. Random fact, but this
made me think of it. An old alum (I think he graduated in the late 40s or early 50s) of TU, and member of my fraternity, was a complete Luddite.

He didn’t know what computers or smart phones were so he called them all “tippy tappys.”
 
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I don’t blame him for sobbing. However, why are you following instructions on who to call on for questions? I know the answer but to admit it was surreal.
Every President does that. Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump. They all do it. Heck it was made famous in the West Wing 20 years ago. At least he’s respectful to the questioners unlike Trump.
 
That makes a lot of sense. Random fact, but this
made me think of it. An old alum (I think he graduated in the late 40s or early 50s) of TU, and member of my fraternity, was a complete Luddite.

He didn’t know what computers or smart phones were so he called them all “tippy tappys.”

I remember some years back a Senator(I think from Alaska) who described the internet as “a series of tubes”
 
Man, things like this make me truly disappointed at how many failures have occurred in our government and military. I am absolutely heart broken knowing these individuals risked their lives to help the US, so we could in turn help them. And now they’re all but sentenced to death because we didn’t keep our end of the bargain.

 
Every President does that. Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump. They all do it. Heck it was made famous in the West Wing 20 years ago. At least he’s respectful to the questioners unlike Trump.
There is zero chance Trump was told who to call on and followed those instructions. I’ve seen many of press conferences with Clinton, Bush and Obama where they got into rather heated discussions with the reporter. There is zero chance those egos would be limited to calling on those they were instructed. Defeats the purpose of the press when the President requires them to ask certain questions or even certain types of questions in order to be called on. Disappointing for all parties concerned.
 
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There is zero chance Trump was told who to call on and followed those instructions. I’ve seen many of press conferences with Clinton, Bush and Obama where they got into rather heated discussions with the reporter. There is zero chance those egos would be limited to calling on those they were instructed. Defeats the purpose of the press when the President requires them to ask certain questions or even certain types of questions in order to be called on. Disappointing for all parties concerned.
Instead Trump simply never took questions from non Fox News-esque entities. He was taking questions from Newsmax instead of the likes of ABC News. The few times he did take questions from any other outlet, he just interrupted them, called them fake news no matter what their question was, and never actually answered their questions. I assure you all presidents are told which questions are coming and which reporters to call on.
 
Instead Trump simply never took questions from non Fox News-esque entities. He was taking questions from Newsmax instead of the likes of ABC News. The few times he did take questions from any other outlet, he just interrupted them, called them fake news no matter what their question was, and never actually answered their questions. I assure you all presidents are told which questions are coming and which reporters to call on.
I was pretty clear above that Trump should not be our presidential standard. Why have press conference if Presidents choose which questions are going to be asked? Not really the purpose of the press.

As far as Trump, he seemed to call on Jim Acosta in every press conference I watched. It was great entertainment. There is zero chance his handlers instructed that and even less of a chance Trump knew the question coming.
 
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Oh there's definitely some emotion here. Making excuses for inexcusable things done by people on the "right team" is a security blanket. Coming out and saying "this was executed poorly in nearly every way and much of it was foreseeable" is alienating because then there's no where to go to be part of the good smart team. It's what happens when people's self-esteem is tied to a political party.
Aston the hole is big enough, quit this argument while you are behind.
 
Aston the hole is big enough, quit this argument while you are behind.
The argument here is so stupid. 'Much of it was foreseeable'. Everything seems foreseeable with hindsight. Pearl Harbor was foreseeable. Sometimes there is more at play than we understand. There might have been better outcomes, but there are also a lot of variables and desired outcomes which we likely have zero idea about.

I am quite sure that if you got in the room with a chief of staff that they would tell you about contingencies they were planning for that you haven't even began to ponder. Yes, sometimes those in command are inept.... but criticizing someone for using one airport instead of another is a bit dim. The problem wasn't which airport we were using. It was the fact that we were trying to evacuate tens of thousands of people, any one of which could have been carrying a backpack with an IED. This could have happened at Bagram it could have happened at DFW. There would have always been tens of thousands of refugees outside the airport. The only difference being our people would have had to go through 50 more miles of Taliban checkpoints to get to the damned evacuation zone.

Then, when we got only a few thousand out and many thousands more Americans were held hostage, you would be complaining about not using Kabul airport because it was more accessible.
 
The argument here is so stupid. 'Much of it was foreseeable'. Everything seems foreseeable with hindsight. Pearl Harbor was foreseeable. Sometimes there is more at play than we understand. There might have been better outcomes, but there are also a lot of variables and desired outcomes which we likely have zero idea about.

I am quite sure that if you got in the room with a chief of staff that they would tell you about contingencies they were planning for that you haven't even began to ponder. Yes, sometimes those in command are inept.... but criticizing someone for using one airport instead of another is a bit dim. The problem wasn't which airport we were using. It was the fact that we were trying to evacuate tens of thousands of people, any one of which could have been carrying a backpack with an IED. This could have happened at Bagram it could have happened at DFW. There would have always been tens of thousands of refugees outside the airport. The only difference being our people would have had to go through 50 more miles of Taliban checkpoints to get to the damned evacuation zone.

Then, when we got only a few thousand out and many thousands more Americans were held hostage, you would be complaining about not using Kabul airport because it was more accessible.
Isn’t at least one of the problems is the inability to establish a perimeter around the Kabul airport due to its location in the middle of the city? Bagram is apparently located in open country where a secure perimeter could have been secured well away from the physical base. It was also already set up as a military base with fortifications already in place. I’m looking forward to hearing the reasoning behind the decision. I’m not sure how allowing the Taliban to take over Kabul AND provide perimeter security for us was ever a good idea. Someone obviously thought differently. Anxious to hear their reasoning.
 
Isn’t at least one of the problems is the inability to establish a perimeter around the Kabul airport due to its location in the middle of the city? Bagram is apparently located in open country where a secure perimeter could have been secured well away from the physical base. It was also already set up as a military base with fortifications already in place. I’m looking forward to hearing the reasoning behind the decision. I’m not sure how allowing the Taliban to take over Kabul AND provide perimeter security for us was ever a good idea. Someone obviously thought differently. Anxious to hear their reasoning.
Again, I concede that Bagram is located in the middle of nowhere. That's the exact reason that it would be really difficult to get to for our citizens and the Afghani's that we apparently would like to save if things went south. Establishing a perimeter doesn't actually do anything for an IED. There are still people (Civilians) around the perimeter. There are likely more people required to man a bigger perimeter (Soldiers), and a bomb in the right spot will still kill a crap load of people including our own. A perimeter doesn't really do anything (besides possibly keep people from rushing the planes like they did but I feel like we are willing to let that level of people go considering the number that we saved).

I would challenge you to go look at the soviet withdrawal in the late 80's and the things they dealt with. Do you think they did a materially better job? Or do you think all of their commanders were just inept too? After all, a ton of soviet equipment fell into the hands of Afghanistan which they're still using today.

BTW here's an interesting transcript of a communication between one of the Soviet commanders and the US CIA station chief in Islamabad as the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan. Can you not imagine the Russians doing the same sort of thing just to spite us?

Botshan-Kharchenko: You must understand, Mr. Buurdon, that these attacks against our troops as they withdraw must stop.

Bearden: And if they don't?

Botshan-Kharchenko: Then perhaps we will halt our withdrawal. Then what will you do?

Bearden: It is not what I will do, Counselor; it is what the Afghans will do. And I think they will simply keep on fighting and killing your soldiers until you finally just go home.

Botshan-Kharchenko: But you have some control over such matters.

Bearden: No one has control over such matters, Counselor, except the Soviet Union.

Botshan-Kharchenko: Mr. Buurdon, you must still understand that there will be consequences if these attacks continue.

Bearden: I am sure there will be, Counselor.[4]:153 [8]:354
 
The argument here is so stupid. 'Much of it was foreseeable'. Everything seems foreseeable with hindsight. Pearl Harbor was foreseeable. Sometimes there is more at play than we understand. There might have been better outcomes, but there are also a lot of variables and desired outcomes which we likely have zero idea about.

I am quite sure that if you got in the room with a chief of staff that they would tell you about contingencies they were planning for that you haven't even began to ponder. Yes, sometimes those in command are inept.... but criticizing someone for using one airport instead of another is a bit dim. The problem wasn't which airport we were using. It was the fact that we were trying to evacuate tens of thousands of people, any one of which could have been carrying a backpack with an IED.

Edited for language. This was from Sunday. That's not second guessing. That's knowing how things go in Afghanistan if you expose yourself too long. You don't actually have to let the Taliban run checkpoints. We didn't have to allow them to set them up to begin with. Also got some texts on my phone from a buddy asking why they are not halting the civilian processing at Kabul while there's a known imminent terror threat. That was about 3 hours before the explosion. The reason of course is that pointing to the civilian evac is how the Biden admin was going to call this a success and we're not pushing the timeline. Unfortunately it got people killed.

talib.png
 
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Again, I concede that Bagram is located in the middle of nowhere. That's the exact reason that it would be really difficult to get to for our citizens and the Afghani's that we apparently would like to save if things went south. Establishing a perimeter doesn't actually do anything for an IED. There are still people (Civilians) around the perimeter. There are likely more people required to man a bigger perimeter (Soldiers), and a bomb in the right spot will still kill a crap load of people including our own. A perimeter doesn't really do anything (besides possibly keep people from rushing the planes like they did but I feel like we are willing to let that level of people go considering the number that we saved).

I would challenge you to go look at the soviet withdrawal in the late 80's and the things they dealt with. Do you think they did a materially better job? Or do you think all of their commanders were just inept too? After all, a ton of soviet equipment fell into the hands of Afghanistan which they're still using today.

BTW here's an interesting transcript of a communication between one of the Soviet commanders and the US CIA station chief in Islamabad as the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan. Can you not imagine the Russians doing the same sort of thing just to spite us?

Botshan-Kharchenko: You must understand, Mr. Buurdon, that these attacks against our troops as they withdraw must stop.

Bearden: And if they don't?

Botshan-Kharchenko: Then perhaps we will halt our withdrawal. Then what will you do?

Bearden: It is not what I will do, Counselor; it is what the Afghans will do. And I think they will simply keep on fighting and killing your soldiers until you finally just go home.

Botshan-Kharchenko: But you have some control over such matters.

Bearden: No one has control over such matters, Counselor, except the Soviet Union.

Botshan-Kharchenko: Mr. Buurdon, you must still understand that there will be consequences if these attacks continue.

Bearden: I am sure there will be, Counselor.[4]:153 [8]:354
But they weren’t killing our soldiers over the past year. The situation on the ground was very different than what the Russians experienced. We had the ability to keep control of Kabul and conduct this operation without relying on the Taliban to provide passage, security, etc…. It’s no coincidence that these attacks started in Kabul once the Taliban arrived. That is on us…period. Shouldn’t have happened. Hold the real estate until everyone is out. Pretty basic stuff
 
But they weren’t killing our soldiers over the past year. The situation on the ground was very different than what the Russians experienced. We had the ability to keep control of Kabul and conduct this operation without relying on the Taliban to provide passage, security, etc…. It’s no coincidence that these attacks started in Kabul once the Taliban arrived. That is on us…period. Shouldn’t have happened. Hold the real estate until everyone is out. Pretty basic stuff
The Soviets have brokered (bought) ceasefires with various leaders of the mujahadeen as they left as well. The only thing that was different for them was that they weren't having to air lift out.
 
The Soviets have brokered (bought) ceasefires with various leaders of the mujahadeen as they left as well. The only thing that was different for them was that they weren't having to air lift out.
We’ve had 2500 casualties in 20 years in Afghanistan. The Soviets had 5x that amount in half the time. I would say several things were different.

That said, allowing Kabul to fall prior to our evacuation was obviously the glaring mistake. Anytime you’re evacuating thousands in an area under enemy control there are bound to be deaths as well as the risk of leaving people behind. Not to mention making said evacuations and logistics just damn hard. We are seeing just that play out.
 
We’ve had 2500 casualties in 20 years in Afghanistan. The Soviets had 5x that amount in half the time. I would say several things were different.

That said, allowing Kabul to fall prior to our evacuation was obviously the glaring mistake. Anytime you’re evacuating thousands in an area under enemy control there are bound to be deaths as well as the risk of leaving people behind. Not to mention making said evacuations and logistics just damn hard. We are seeing just that play out.
As soon as we started airlifting Afghans out of the country, or even significant levels of our own civilians it's likely that the government would have folded anyway, and the army with it. That would have meant we would have been left defending Kabul on our own. I agree with your second point. Evacuations / Retreats are hard. They're nearly damn impossible when you're doing it by air. There have really only been two significant air evacuations / retreats in military history. Saigon, and now Kabul.

And, don't look now but we could have another in the near future in Iraq as well.... since we (NATO) haven't fully withdrawn there either. Luckily for us in Iraq, we were able to withdraw through Kuwait because of how close our transports on the Persian Gulf could get. It's not so easy with landlocked Afghanistan where you have a Taliban controlled Pakistani border, an Iranian border, a Chinese border, and a couple of corrupt soviet satellites.
 
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As soon as we started airlifting Afghans out of the country, or even significant levels of our own civilians it's likely that the government would have folded anyway, and the army with it. That would have meant we would have been left defending Kabul on our own. I agree with your second point. Evacuations / Retreats are hard. They're nearly damn impossible when you're doing it by air. There have really only been two significant air evacuations / retreats in military history. Saigon, and now Kabul.

And, don't look now but we will have another in the near future in Iraq as well.... since we (NATO) haven't fully withdrawn there either.
No chance the Taliban invade Kabul with US air power in place. The government only folded when we removed air support. Which was a vital part of their armed forces and an element they weren’t trained to fight without. We were warned what would occur once air support was removed. We chose to remove it anyway. This :crap: show is a direct consequence of allowing the Taliban to take over the city prior to us evacuating out our people. Never should have been allowed. This is on us. Anxious to hear why we ignored the warnings and allowed it.
 
No chance the Taliban invade Kabul with US air power in place. The government only folded when we removed air support. Which was a vital part of their armed forces and an element they weren’t trained to fight without. We were warned what would occur once air support was removed. We chose to remove it anyway. This :crap: show is a direct consequence of allowing the Taliban to take over the city prior to us evacuating out our people. Never should have been allowed. This is on us. Anxious to hear why we ignored the warnings and allowed it.
This article is from July 26. Two weeks later, the Taliban had taken Kandihar a strategic focal point for the Afghans and the US. Air support wasn't winning the war at that time.


Here's a question... If American troops were fighting for their homes and the safety of their families, do you think they would give up even if they lost support of their airforce? Heck the Germans (famously dependent on Luftwafa support) kept fighting for months after we had control of the skies in WWII and many of those were young kids and old men.

I just don't believe that the Afghan army had the discipline or the desire to fight the Taliban. Many of them were simply bribed to leave their positions.
 
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