Ukraine….what’s our endgame here
- Thread starter lawpoke87
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If Putin owns Trump, why didnt he move on the Donbas with Trump in office.. Obama gave him the Crimea and Syria, yet he chose not to act on the rest of Ukraine until Biden was in office.. why?
This is not true. Lots of people without military experience have shown up and been shown the door.
Where the heck do you get that Biden owed Zelensky money. Do you ever get on your rocker?
Putin thought it would be over in 2 or 3 days. So, it didn't really matter. Besides it would throw more fuel on the fire that Putin had the goods on Trump. Why would Putin do that to Trump early on while he was being impeached over that crap? He was probably protecting Trump from that. Why turn the wolves back onto Trump's scent? You want to protect your dog for future favors.
Later in Trump's first term he probably thought Trump would win a second term. Why would he want to put Trump under the pressure cooker until he was in his second and final term, where he wasn't terribly worried about being elected again. It would be much easier to ignore Ukraine, and watch it being taken over, if Trump wouldn't really suffer any consequences for having done so.
Later on, when Trump had failed to win, it wasn't looking like there was any great chance for Trump to come back and beat Biden in the second race against him. Putin probably thought if not now, then when. Besides I'm pretty sure he thought Biden would react weak. Once again though, he thought it wouldn't matter because he thought it would be over before Biden even had a chance to react.
I hope you didnt strain something with those mental gymnastics..
Its like.. watching a KW offense in action... " they are expecting a screen, so we will run up the middle, unless they expect me to expect them to expect the screen and run up the middle, so, i will do something totally unexpected and run a screen."
There was a 6 month lead up / build up to the invasion. What are you talking about “would be over before Biden has a chance to react”. Biden had ample time to send arms and even troops to defend against the invasion is he so wanted. He didn’t and Ukraine was invaded
If you don't think Putin thinks ahead in this manner then you are sadly deluded. He's not as long term as the Chinese are, but he is not far off. It wasn't mental gymnastics, I put that all together as I composed the post. The post was composed in two or three minutes after I read your post. The editing took way longer than the composition.
I was only responding your statement “Biden didn’t have time to react”. I assert there was ample time to react to the Russian buildup at the Ukrainian border. We just chose not to.
As to why Putin waited until Biden took office to invade Ukraine, I suspect there are only a handful of people on earth which know the answer to that question with certainty
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You always go back to your same thoughts and ignore the situation in time. As I've said before, many times, Biden like any sane President was worried about how Putin would react to US troops. Early on he was and should have been worried about World War III. He hadn't even seen the miasma of Russian troops stuck on the supply road yet, to give him confidence. Worries of provoking World War III was the primary reason why he didn't insert troops in the buildup to war in the 6 months before it started.
But I'm not necessarily defending Biden here. I think Biden should have put troops on the ground. Several insertion points called for him to put troops on the ground then. He missed them all. The mess early on with the Russian supply line, when Ukraine destroyed large parts of his Navy, when they bombed the hell out of that supply line bridge, when they had just done a couple of three bombings within Russian borders, when Russians were voicing their tiredness of the war and upset at how many soldiers were lost and being replaced by draftees, when Prizgohzin was threatening Putin's position, and especially when he got troops from N Korea!!!
But that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing why that Russia attacked when Biden was in office, and noble cane's false assuredness that Trump's strength kept Putin from attacking when he was in office. I laugh at that, because there are many reasons he attacked when he did, and I don't think fear of Trump was even on the list of the why's.
We can all speculate, that's the point of the board if there is one.
😁Your assertion needs to be in the context of my response. Otherwise we are just posting to ourselves. As I said, my answer was he, like any sane president was concerned with Putin's reaction and how it would play on the world stage, and maybe lead to other countries entering the battle, on the side of the axis of evil. I responded and you ignored my response. I think it would have been reckless to have put troops in place before the war started.
But hindsight is 20/20. Knowing all the faux pas, mistakes, failures and just royal screw ups of Putin in this war, my advice would be to put troops in Ukraine three or four months ahead of the war. That wouldn't have been my advice then. Certainly we should have had troops in place before Putin pulled the stunt with Iran and the Hamas attack on that music festival. We might have stalled Putin way before that stunt ever entered his mind. Then we wouldn't have israel killing 35 or 40k of Gazan civilians, and possibly peace in Ukraine w/ minimal to no losses of Ukranian land to Russia.
Sigh.
So is our endgame to betray every known ally we have all to gain the favor of Russia and Hungary?
It seems like we have recently undermined most of our military industry for the next 50 or so years by refusing support of our weapons and communications platforms and being a generally untrustworthy manufacturer of weapons and technology. (Starlkink, Fighter Jets, Surface to Air Missiles, Jamming Systems, etc…)
It seems like we have recently undermined most of our military industry for the next 50 or so years by refusing support of our weapons and communications platforms and being a generally untrustworthy manufacturer of weapons and technology. (Starlkink, Fighter Jets, Surface to Air Missiles, Jamming Systems, etc…)
" In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."
Probably talking a bit more about the atomic bomb than subverting arms manufacturing at large.
Even so, that’s not doctrine that the USA has followed or that any Republican or Trump has espoused in the past 70 years.
That's just an excuse to support Trump. Our country is weak against its enemies. Regrettably we are too friendly with one of our enemies.
Never thought you would be on the side that started the Cuban Missile Crisis.
In these one on one talks with Zelensky and Trump, and Putin and Trump, I think the only one getting played is Trump. Zelensky's only feelings toward Trump after him pulling that publicity stunt in the oval office is no trust will ever be given to Trump. And if Trump thinks he will ever get control of Zelensky's electric grid and nuclear power plants, then I think he needs to 'inspect' the Brooklyn Bridge. Putin is just playing the game. Putin will never give up anything of any value in these 'peace talks'. Zelensky is playing Trump for whatever Trump will give in military support and supplies during these peace talks. These one on one talks will continue until Trump realizes he has been played.
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The US State Department allegedly deleted evidence collected by Yale University’s Humanitarian Research Lab, which was tracking Russian war crimes, including the abduction of 35,000 Ukrainian children. The deletion has hindered efforts to rescue the children and prosecute those responsible, including Russian President Vladimir Putin. The Yale project, funded by the US government until last month, monitored 116 sites in Russia using satellite imagery and other surveillance tools.
Sources suggest the deletion may have been accidental or intentional, raising potential legal risks for the Trump administration under international war crimes laws. The lost data was also being shared with the EU for its own investigations. The destruction of evidence not only affects legal cases but also complicates ongoing rescue missions.
The Yale project played a key role in gathering evidence that contributed to six ICC indictments, including against Putin and his commissioner for children’s rights. Russia has been accused of forcibly transferring Ukrainian children, issuing Russian passports in occupied areas, and erasing Ukrainian identity. The loss of the secure “Caesar” database has been described as a violation of the Geneva Convention, which prohibits destroying war crimes evidence. The US State Department has yet to respond.
Sources suggest the deletion may have been accidental or intentional, raising potential legal risks for the Trump administration under international war crimes laws. The lost data was also being shared with the EU for its own investigations. The destruction of evidence not only affects legal cases but also complicates ongoing rescue missions.
The Yale project played a key role in gathering evidence that contributed to six ICC indictments, including against Putin and his commissioner for children’s rights. Russia has been accused of forcibly transferring Ukrainian children, issuing Russian passports in occupied areas, and erasing Ukrainian identity. The loss of the secure “Caesar” database has been described as a violation of the Geneva Convention, which prohibits destroying war crimes evidence. The US State Department has yet to respond.
You guys probably figured it out, but I accidentally switched Zelensky with Trump in talking about one on one talks.
Putin is afraid of 1 million dissatisfied troops going home. There isn't a single person from the war in a position of power in the Russian military or defence department.
He loves the war. They are starting to produce lots of stuff in their factories and it is more than outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg.
The end game is kill Putin replace him with CIA approved Russian (Ukrainian of Russian ethnicity) who will make being gay celebrated in Russia.
That’s why Biden provoked Putin to invade Ukraine. They hate Russia because they don’t tolerate homosexuality.
Biden provoked him by publicly talking about NATO expansion Ukraine…
Maybe you should stick to solving for fatherlessness in low income homes.
That didn’t happen. The people you’re talking about were Ukrainian citizens of Russian descent; they’re ethnic Russian Ukrainians. Zelenskyy first language is Russian he speaks better Russian than Ukrainian yet he kills Ukrainians who dare speak it.
Explain that.
You, along with them will bend your knees to God Almighty & Lord & Savior Jesus Christ!
Yall hate Trump because God made him flawed because he is not to be a martyr! Trump is not to be worshipped! Yall hating him is the very essence that allows him to do God’s work! It is Biblical & Beautiful & yet even for you it’s not too late, but we are in the red zone here the clock is ticking. That’s on your time technically we’ve already won but you shall bear witness.
The proposed American framework “essentially hands Russia a victory it cannot achieve on the battlefield,” said Fabian Zuleeg, chief executive of the European Policy Center in Brussels. “It’s an alignment with Russia, a betrayal of Ukraine and of our security.”
Another gift to Putin.
www.nytimes.com
Another gift to Putin.
If America Walks Away From Ukraine, What Will Europe Do?
Europeans see Ukraine’s security as vital to their own and want to defend the principle of no border changes by force, even if President Trump does not.
As long as Europe is sending more money to Russia than Ukraine, I take any betrayal talk with a grain of salt.The proposed American framework “essentially hands Russia a victory it cannot achieve on the battlefield,” said Fabian Zuleeg, chief executive of the European Policy Center in Brussels. “It’s an alignment with Russia, a betrayal of Ukraine and of our security.”
Another gift to Putin.
If America Walks Away From Ukraine, What Will Europe Do?
Europeans see Ukraine’s security as vital to their own and want to defend the principle of no border changes by force, even if President Trump does not.
Russia would end up with less dirt than they currently occupy so I’m not sure how it grants them a victory they couldn’t earn on the battle field. No clue if Putin will accept those terms. The proposal also gives Ukraine a path to enter the EU and security guarantees. At the end of the day we failed Ukraine. We made promises to them when they agreed to give up their nuclear arsenal. Then we stood idle as Putin invaded Crimea and Ukraine. That is on Europe and the US. Russia will continue to take Ukrainian dirt until a peace is achieved. I don’t see a better deal being gained down the line
How does it give Russia less dirt than they currently occupy? I'm asking because I've only read summarized reports, and almost all summarized reports consistently imply Russia is allowed to keep all dirt that it currently occupies. Too lazy to look up the actual American Proposal and read it carefully.
The proposal will force Russia to give up a portion of Ukraine they are now occupying….albeit a very small portion. It certainly does not cede additional territory to Russia which it does not currently occupy. Which is what the headline implies
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No it won’t… and why should they? This is what happens when wars end… the lines are drawn where the winner says & the winner in this is Russia not because they’re bigger & picked unfair fight but because THEY ARE RIGHTEOUS IN THE CAUSE! Ukraine was TRICCD INTO KILLING ETHNIC RUSSIANS FOR OVER A DECADE BY OBAMA COLOR GUARD & NOW THE ONLY PEOPLE LEFT HAVE MORE THAN PROVEN ONLY THING THEY WANTED PUTIN GONE FOR WAS SO THEY COULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF RUSSIA OPPRESSED ITS PEOPLE & MAKE F466075 LEGAL THERE
What a great deal! No NATO, no EU, Russian keeps al most all of its invaded area, and is released from sanctions. Putin is set up for his next bite of the apple. And the US threat is that it will 'walk away' if everyone doesn't accept. For Putin, that's like brer rabbit asking not to be thrown in the briar patch. A deal worthy of Neville Chamberlin.
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