Ukraine….what’s our endgame here

[Gmoney4WW]

Well at least now the Ukrainians are able to come out of the closet on their bombing of areas on the Russian side of their border.

The Russians and the Ukrainians together, weren't admitting there was daily bombings on the Russian side of the border. Apparently this had been going on for quite some time, and just wasn't reported at all. It would only come into the news when something important like a supply depot was hard hit, blowing up weapons, ammo, oil, etc.

The Russians didn't want to look weak for not stopping it. The Ukrainians didn't want to publicly look aggressive to Russia or the rest of the world, . So it got an uncoordinated group effort by the media and world governments. Everybody was attempting to help save face for Putin, to avoid him hitting back harder. Now that it is obvious his only way of hitting back in any significant way, is with Nuclear or chemical weapons, they are semi cautiously pushing it into the media.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

So who do you guys think blew up Russia's Bridge over the River Kwai. Russia or Ukraine? I could easily see Putin needing justification for heavy long range bombing. Even with the bridge semi intact, there isn't much going right for the Russian Army. Putin abandoning expectations that the Army will accomplish anything to turn the war around, requires a face saving act like bombing the bridge. He needs an excuse for the army continuing to perform horribly. Resorting to long range weapons suddenly, would require an excuse for the brutality, other than an inept Army.

But Ukraine was awful quick with billboards of the bombing, and had the Marilyn video up PDQ.

Coulda been us &/or other allies, behind the scenes wanting a reason to be able to give air defenses.(Doubt it though.)

 

[URedskin54]

Pretty even across parties and demographics. 18-29 still haven’t made up their minds

 

[lawpoke87]

Far left beginning to rail against Ukraine support

 

[noble cane]

Pretty even across parties and demographics. 18-29 still haven’t made up their minds

I guess when its your ass that will get drafted to fight Biden's war...

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I guess when its your ass that will get drafted to fight Biden's war...

Two different issues.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Far left beginning to rail against Ukraine support

View embedded media

I don't call a couple of vocal nut jobs at a poorly attended town hall meeting, proof that the far left is moving one way or the other on this.

 

[noble cane]

Two different issues.

Maybe... i think the two are pretty intertwined.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Maybe... i think the two are pretty intertwined.

Intertwined, maybe in the heads of those who can't separate the issue the way it should be.

 

[lawpoke87]

I don't call a couple of vocal nut jobs at a poorly attended town hall meeting, proof that the far left is moving one way or the other on this.

I will wager we will see more and more opposition from the far left in the coming weeks.

 

[URedskin54]

Far left beginning to rail against Ukraine support

View embedded media

Tankies have been against it from the start. Commie solidarity and whatnot

 

[noble cane]

Intertwined, maybe in the heads of those who can't separate the issue the way it should be.

I separate it just fine.. i have always seen Russia (and China) as enemies of the US, but, then my ass isnt on the line to go fight them in some senile old man's war that he and our European allies could have avoided with an appropriate show of strength. Russia saw weakness and struck. Now the Ukrainian people are bleeding in a classic European war of attrition that they cant win unless NATO (US) combat forces are put on the ground and the sky. Meanwhile, China sits back and lets the West deplete its war chest and arms stockpiles while building its PLA/PLN up and waiting for its moment in the Asia/Pacific theatre. The federal debt keeps going up along with interest rates and soon the weight of our debt service will make it impossible to maintain adequate readiness to keep both the Bear and the Dragon at bay. Ukraine will fall, followed by Taiwan and SE Asia possibly even Korea and Japan as we pull weapons out of theatre to fight our little proxy war. We will be able to defend our shores, but our ability to project power after this fiasco will be severely limited.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I separate it just fine.. i have always seen Russia (and China) as enemies of the US, but, then my ass isnt on the line to go fight them in some senile old man's war that he and our European allies could have avoided with an appropriate show of strength. Russia saw weakness and struck. Now the Ukrainian people are bleeding in a classic European war of attrition that they cant win unless NATO (US) combat forces are put on the ground and the sky. Meanwhile, China sits back and lets the West deplete its war chest and arms stockpiles while building its PLA/PLN up and waiting for its moment in the Asia/Pacific theatre. The federal debt keeps going up along with interest rates and soon the weight of our debt service will make it impossible to maintain adequate readiness to keep both the Bear and the Dragon at bay. Ukraine will fall, followed by Taiwan and SE Asia possibly even Korea and Japan as we pull weapons out of theatre to fight our little proxy war. We will be able to defend our shores, but our ability to project power after this fiasco will be severely limited.

An appropriate show of strength may or may not have worked with Putin. I don't buy that we absolutely could have found a show of strength that wouldn't have taken us into a direct conflict. Putin's life is nearing it's end,(maybe 10 years from now, but it is running out of time) and Putin has been planning this for a long time. He sees it as his holy grail, life mission. There is not always an answer to stop a mission.

Plans were already there, but the first success Putin saw, was when Trump won. That's when the real planning began, and Putin's first signs that it would be in the near future. I don't know if there was anything anybody could have done to stop this from going down the road it went, other than to get into a direct conflict. The issue with that, is then all the appropriate countries would have joined in the fight with Putin. Several if not all of the succeeding countries would have joined up with Russia.(China, Iran, Turkey, India, North Korea, Hungary, Syria)

It may have been a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. I don't share your doomsday outlook though. That's an almost worst case scenario. Japan falling, come on. If that happened it would definitely be a world war. I don't even buy that Ukraine will fall. Russia is faltering, and rocking on it's, we've got a bunch of missiles fall back. All this because their military can't find their own sphincter.

It's not just us supplying them, Europe has stepped up. Don't tell me that Europe and the US can't keep up a resupply effort. I don't believe we will be caught in a situation where we are so poorly self supplied because of the Ukrainian effort. Maybe right now we would be sort of there, but by the time China thinks it can begin the onslaught, our production should meet both our needs.(Ukraine & the US) And if it becomes a direct conflict, you know what we can and will do, on weapons manufacture. We will go into a World War II mode on that.

 

[noble cane]

An appropriate show of strength may or may not have worked with Putin. I don't buy that we absolutely could have found a show of strength that wouldn't have taken us into a direct conflict. Putin's life is nearing it's end,(maybe 10 years from now, but it is running out of time) and Putin has been planning this for a long time. He sees it as his holy grail, life mission. There is not always an answer to stop a mission.

Plans were already there, but the first success Putin saw, was when Trump won. That's when the real planning began, and Putin's first signs that it would be in the near future. I don't know if there was anything anybody could have done to stop this from going down the road it went, other than to get into a direct conflict. The issue with that, is then all the appropriate countries would have joined in the fight with Putin. Several if not all of the succeeding countries would have joined up with Russia.(China, Iran, Turkey, India, North Korea, Hungary, Syria)

It may have been a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. I don't share your doomsday outlook though. That's an almost worst case scenario. Japan falling, come on. If that happened it would definitely be a world war. I don't even buy that Ukraine will fall. Russia is faltering, and rocking on it's, we've got a bunch of missiles fall back. All this because their military can't find their own sphincter.

It's not just us supplying them, Europe has stepped up. Don't tell me that Europe and the US can't keep up a resupply effort. I don't believe we will be caught in a situation where we are so poorly self supplied because of the Ukrainian effort. Maybe right now we would be sort of there, but by the time China thinks it can begin the onslaught, our production should meet both our needs.(Ukraine & the US) And if it becomes a direct conflict, you know what we can and will do, on weapons manufacture. We will go into a World War II mode on that.

You leave out the finance function... how much are you going to borrow or tax to do this?

Plus, if it goes that far, you wont have time to build all of it back up..

 

[Gmoney4WW]

You leave out the finance function... how much are you going to borrow or tax to do this?

Plus, if it goes that far, you wont have time to build all of it back up..

This is a small conflict being financed by multiple countries.

And you don't think we will be planning for that and upping our production to resupply us at the same time we are resupplying them? Doubt we are that dumb about it. The longer it goes on the more we will be able to resupply us as well as them.

 

[noble cane]

This is a small conflict being financed by multiple countries.

And you don't think we will be planning for that and upping our production to resupply us at the same time we are resupplying them? Doubt we are that dumb about it. The longer it goes on the more we will be able to resupply us as well as them.

Tough to argue with a true believer..

But, where is the money coming from?

And truly Putins first success was when Obama let him have the Crimean Peninsula and Syria..

 

[lawpoke87]

We are currently funding what appears to be a never ending war. Supplying just enough to keep both sides killing one another. How long before the people in the US and in particular Europe sour on the notion of a war on their continent with no end in sight. A war which brings economic hardships to all. A move for a peace which involves either Russia keeping those eastern provinces of free elections in the same to determine affiliation is coming down the road. Count on it.

 

[astonmartin708]

Far left beginning to rail against Ukraine support

View embedded media

Those guys aren’t the far left. They are Tulsi Gabbard supporters. They just embarrassed themselves.

 

[astonmartin708]

We are currently funding what appears to be a never ending war. Supplying just enough to keep both sides killing one another. How long before the people in the US and in particular Europe sour on the notion of a war on their continent with no end in sight. A war which brings economic hardships to all. A move for a peace which involves either Russia keeping those eastern provinces of free elections in the same to determine affiliation is coming down the road. Count on it.

You sound like Musk… IE… a quack.

If you don’t want continuous Russian episodes, you have to draw a line in the sand as far as armed conquests of lands that don’t belong to them. Those provinces (and all of Ukraine) have now become that line, and the line will not move unless people like you whine and cry to capitulate.
I thought the Republican Party had a backbone.… apparently they’re only comfortable with wars of conquest where they’re mostly fighting people who can’t effectively fight back.

Lots of talk about “freedom and ‘Murica” for a party that gives up on the people literally fighting for the continued free existence of their provinces Which have been invaded under ridiculously false pretense.

Time for the Republican Party to literally start putting its money where it’s mouth has been.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

1. Tough to argue with a true believer..

2. But, where is the money coming from?

3. And truly Putins first success was when Obama let him have the Crimean Peninsula and Syria..

1. I could argue the same with you and your show of strength changing anything.(That same argument could be made against a show of strength stopping Putin through anything other than direct conflict. Missionary Man.)

2. From the same place our large expenditures on defense come from. Taxes. It hasn't affected us in tax increases yet, and probably won't. Our expenditures were this large before Obama took them down.

3. Can't disagree with you there. He started planning this, I'd say almost as early as he took the Prime Ministership. I bet the vagaries were in his head as early as 2000 Yeah his success with Crimea gave him the belief that he could gain it back step by step. Several Presidents did not foresee this long game quite clearly enough, and didn't know what to do about it anyway.(Bush-Biden) I don't think there was a way, except taking him out of the Presidency, which was a dangerous affair. There weren't too many routes to do that, except with an assassination. And he carefully guarded against that.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Those guys aren’t the far left. They are Tulsi Gabbard supporters. They just embarrassed themselves.

That's pretty embarrassing when you have AOC in the room, and you embarrass yourself more than her.

 

[astonmartin708]

That's pretty embarrassing when you have AOC in the room, and you embarrass yourself more than her.

I agree. I was like, of all the legitimate gripes that some people have… these guys get up there and start whining about Tulsi Gabbard who has been a total flake for the past decade or so.

 

[lawpoke87]

You sound like Musk… IE… a quack.

If you don’t want continuous Russian episodes, you have to draw a line in the sand as far as armed conquests of lands that don’t belong to them. Those provinces (and all of Ukraine) have now become that line, and the line will not move unless people like you whine and cry to capitulate.
I thought the Republican Party had a backbone.… apparently they’re only comfortable with wars of conquest where they’re mostly fighting people who can’t effectively fight back.

Lots of talk about “freedom and ‘Murica” for a party that gives up on the people literally fighting for the continued free existence of their provinces Which have been invaded under ridiculously false pretense.

Time for the Republican Party to literally start putting its money where it’s mouth has been.

You’re reading comprehension is as poor as your reasoning. Nowhere did I say I supported those measures in exchange for peace. I said Europe would eventually grow tired of a never ending war on their continent and begin to look toward peaceful resolution. I’m not wrong.

I’m on the record as wanting to go in forcefully from the outset. You were the dove…and wrong. I have no problem in continuing to support this war but the support must be sufficient to win the same. Not simply sufficient to sustain the killing and destruction of and in the Ukraine. Which is the current state of our foreign policy regarding this conflict.

 

[URedskin54]

I separate it just fine.. i have always seen Russia (and China) as enemies of the US, but, then my ass isnt on the line to go fight them in some senile old man's war that he and our European allies could have avoided with an appropriate show of strength. Russia saw weakness and struck. Now the Ukrainian people are bleeding in a classic European war of attrition that they cant win unless NATO (US) combat forces are put on the ground and the sky. Meanwhile, China sits back and lets the West deplete its war chest and arms stockpiles while building its PLA/PLN up and waiting for its moment in the Asia/Pacific theatre. The federal debt keeps going up along with interest rates and soon the weight of our debt service will make it impossible to maintain adequate readiness to keep both the Bear and the Dragon at bay. Ukraine will fall, followed by Taiwan and SE Asia possibly even Korea and Japan as we pull weapons out of theatre to fight our little proxy war. We will be able to defend our shores, but our ability to project power after this fiasco will be severely limited.

Yeah using weapons as if we’re in a war without mobilizing production as if we’re in a war….not great. It’s an administration trying to wage war while pretending it’s not.

 

[lawpoke87]

Yeah using weapons as if we’re in a war without mobilizing production as if we’re in a war….not great. It’s an administration trying to wage war while pretending it’s not.

Decreasing defense spending during wartime is quite the unusual move. It is the Biden Admin though.

 

[noble cane]

2. From the same place our large expenditures on defense come from. borrowed from future generations. It hasn't affected us in tax increases yet, and probably won't. Our expenditures were this large before Obama took them down.

FIFY

 

[noble cane]

You’re reading comprehension is as poor as your reasoning. Nowhere did I say I supported those measures in exchange for peace. I said Europe would eventually grow tired of a never ending war on their continent and begin to look toward peaceful resolution. I’m not wrong.

I’m on the record as wanting to go in forcefully from the outset. You were the dove…and wrong. I have no problem in continuing to support this war but the support must be sufficient to win the same. Not simply sufficient to sustain the killing and destruction of and in the Ukraine. Which is the current state of our foreign policy regarding this conflict.

Once the last Ukrainian is dead, it wont matter anyway.

 

[astonmartin708]

You’re reading comprehension is as poor as your reasoning. Nowhere did I say I supported those measures in exchange for peace. I said Europe would eventually grow tired of a never ending war on their continent and begin to look toward peaceful resolution. I’m not wrong.

I’m on the record as wanting to go in forcefully from the outset. You were the dove…and wrong. I have no problem in continuing to support this war but the support must be sufficient to win the same. Not simply sufficient to sustain the killing and destruction of and in the Ukraine. Which is the current state of our foreign policy regarding this conflict.

I was not a dove. I was advocating for i perceived as the optimal navigation. If you push me then I will push you back, but I’m not going to do so until you actually push me.

As far as the US providing more destructive weapons, I do not support a path that would inherently bring us closer to Nuclear War.

I think this war will be one of attrition and it will be won through tactics If it will be won at all.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

2. From the same place our large expenditures on defense come from. borrowed from future generations. It hasn't affected us in tax increases yet, and probably won't. Our expenditures were this large before Obama took them down.

FIFY

Blame that on Bush, and all the presidents before him, like Reagan. The only president you can't blame it on is Obama. If Obama had taken action against Crimea, then maybe you could blame it on Obama. And after Obama you can blame it on Trump and Biden. Gotta place the blame game 'on borrowed from future generations' on the proper 'peoples'.

 

[lawpoke87]

I was not a dove. I was advocating for i perceived as the optimal navigation. If you push me then I will push you back, but I’m not going to do so until you actually push me.

As far as the US providing more destructive weapons, I do not support a path that would inherently bring us closer to Nuclear War.

I think this war will be one of attrition and it will be won through tactics If it will be won at all.

You were absolutely a dove. You can’t push back if you’re not supplied sufficient weapons to “push”. We knew the invasion was coming and still neglected Ukraine’s request. We only allowed them to “push back” after substantial territory was taken and many Ukrainian lives were lost. One of your explanations at the time was we didn’t want Ukraine to abandon our weapons like we saw in Afghanistan. I responded that Ukrainians were nothing like the Afghanis. Who was correct ?

 

[Gmoney4WW]

We only allowed them to “push back” after substantial territory was taken and many Ukrainian lives were lost. One of your explanations at the time was we didn’t want Ukraine to abandon our weapons like we saw in Afghanistan. I responded that Ukrainians were nothing like the Afghanis. Who was correct ?

We didn't absolutely know that till we saw the pudding.(territory gained)

 

[noble cane]

Blame that on Bush, and all the presidents before him, like Reagan. The only president you can't blame it on is Obama. If Obama had taken action against Crimea, then maybe you could blame it on Obama. And after Obama you can blame it on Trump and Biden. Gotta place the blame game 'on borrowed from future generations' on the proper 'peoples'.

Seriously.. Obama increased the debt by 74% during his 2 terms..

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Seriously.. Obama increased the debt by 74% during his 2 terms..

Not on the military. I'm speaking strictly about the expenses on the military.

Every president increases the debt. The last one I remember not increasing it was Clinton. But he was flying in the clear blue skies of the tech industries birth.

 

[noble cane]

Not on the military. I'm speaking strictly about the expenses on the military.

Every president increases the debt. The last one I remember not increasing it was Clinton. But he was flying in the clear blue skies of the tech industries birth.

He didnt stop spending on the military.. so he borrowed to fund the military..

NOT Every president increases the debt in fact Andrew Jackson paid it off.. Calvin Coolidge reduced it after Wilsons excess..

 

[Gmoney4WW]

1. He didnt stop spending on the military.. so he borrowed to fund the military..

2. NOT Every president increases the debt in fact Andrew Jackson paid it off.. Calvin Coolidge reduced it after Wilsons excess..

1.) Of course he didn't stop spending on the military, he just cut expenditures way down, and spent less on it than recent presidents had.

2.) Jackson: 180 years ago, when the economy was vastly different. Not even in the same ball park.
Coolidge: Still not even close to a modern president, 90 some odd years ago.

I'm talking about the modern era, where the economy still half ass resembled our economy. Kennedy and beyond. Even though they increased the debt, the last presidents to have a surplus during at least one year were Truman and Eisenhower. Clinton was close at an increase of $18 billion, during 2000.

Kennedy +8%
Johnson +13%
Nixon +34%
Ford +23%
Carter +42%
Reagan +186%
Clinton +32%
Bush +101%
Obama +74%
Trump +40%

 

[URedskin54]

I don’t think % previous debt is a great measure. It enables greater and greater irresponsibility. And that’s not even considering the fact that major spending bills often back load costs and push them to the next guy. In reality Trump was worse than Obama who was worse than Bush

 

[lawpoke87]

I don’t think % previous debt is a great measure. It enables greater and greater irresponsibility. In reality Trump was worse than Obama who was worse than Bush

Ageee with the % argument. Would rather see debt ranked either in real dollars or in terms of gdp

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Ageee with the % argument. Would rather see debt ranked either in real dollars or in terms of gdp

Yeah, I did it because it was easier to look up %.

It proved the point that pretty much all presidents,(especially in modern day times) have left with much more debt than they came into office with. Which was the point Noble was wanting to avoid when he talked about how much debt Obama left with. So it was good enough for what I was showing proof.

 

[watu05]

Yeah, I did it because it was easier to look up %.

It proved the point that pretty much all presidents,(especially in modern day times) have left with much more debt than they came into office with. Which was the point Noble was wanting to avoid when he talked about how much debt Obama left with. So it was good enough for what I was showing proof.

Interesting that Reagan and Dubya were the two biggest in terms of % plus Dubya was responsible for much of Obama’s increase. Unlike Dubya, Obama handed off a stable growing economy that had recovered from the financial disaster he was handed.

 

[URedskin54]

Drink up. WATU mentioned Bush