Ukraine…..does he or doesn’t he?

[Gmoney4WW]

For once I am on Bidens side. I agree, they should remove Putin. I doubt that they will but Biden showed some gumption.

Now secondly, who in the hell can tell the President of the United States to take back something he just said. This is a classical case of the tail waging the dog. They are making it pretty clear that they can sensor the President. Don't try that with Lyndon Johnson a democrat, or some of the Republicans of the last century.

Biden didn't start a war, it has been going on for a month. They have became too used to telling people who hired them what he can and cannot do.

Last administration they had the escape clause that their boss was a blooming idiot.

This time they have the excuse that their boss(who inserted foot 👣 in mouth throughout his career) sometimes shows vestiges of senility.

When is either party 🎉 going to put someone in office 🏢 who will command the respect the office 🏢 should hold.

 

[TUMe]

When I was 16, John Kennedy and Nikita Kruschev got into a little spat over missiles in Cuba. Kennedy explained how the cow at the cabbage. No one told him to withdraw his messages. The Russians backed down. No way of knowing what they Russians would do today but Biden was a bit to honest as to what he thought.

 

[rusty-c]

A well placed dose of Thallium would end this..

Seems that there has been an instance in the past that confirms the effectiveness of this methodology.

 

[rusty-c]

When I was 16, John Kennedy and Nikita Kruschev got into a little spat over missiles in Cuba. Kennedy explained how the cow at the cabbage. No one told him to withdraw his messages. The Russians backed down. No way of knowing what they Russians would do today but Biden was a bit to honest as to what he thought.

Well, love or hate Trump, when the Syrians gassed their people and Trump ordered 60-70 Tomahawk cruise missles to the air field that launched the attack, which was housing Russian troops that were aiding and supporting the Syrian forces, he let the Syrians and Russians know that it better not happen again. It didn't.... Trump was either rationally irrational or irrationally rational, not sure which one but it worked in dealing with this type of issue. Kennedy was holding all the cards and played them very well in dealing with Kruschev.

 

[TUMe]

Well, love or hate Trump, when the Syrians gassed their people and Trump ordered 60-70 Tomahawk cruise missles to the air field that launched the attack, which was housing Russian troops that were aiding and supporting the Syrian forces, he let the Syrians and Russians know that it better not happen again. It didn't.... Trump was either rationally irrational or irrationally rational, not sure which one but it worked in dealing with this type of issue. Kennedy was holding all the cards and played them very well in dealing with Kruschev.

Towards the very end of the period of discussion, Kennedy received two messages from Nikita. The first one was easier going than the second, Kennedy answered the first and ignored the second one...it worked. After it was announced that everything was calming down, there was still periods of tension, but both sides held to their agreement...mostly.

 

[rusty-c]

Towards the very end of the period of discussion, Kennedy received two messages from Nikita. The first one was easier going than the second, Kennedy answered the first and ignored the second one...it worked. After it was announced that everything was calming down, there was still periods of tension, but both sides held to their agreement...mostly.

Correct, after those communications the cost/benefit analysis made it clear that mussels in Cuba was not a good idea.

 

[watu05]

Russian tech workers and programmers have left in droves, reportedly nearly 100,000. Even without sanctions its economy will suffer for decades.

You can disagree with individual Biden decisions ( I do) , but over all a steady hand that has left the US and the West more united and stronger than before.

 

[lawpoke87]

The real threat of your country being invaded tends to be quite a unifying force as it turns out. It also apparently shifts one’s views on defense spending.

 

[watu05]

The real threat of your country being invaded tends to be quite a unifying force as it turns out. It also apparently shifts one’s views on defense spending.

Which is why Putin has been portraying the West as out to get Russia and the Ukraine as a nest of Nazis cooperating with the West.
As for defense spending, a huge military begs to be used. Dropping 3 or 4 Trillion on a pointless, fruitless invasion of Iraq and nation building in Afghanistan are good examples of wasted money and lives. In Russia’s case it created a false sense of military power and effectivenes.

 

[watu05]

Well, love or hate Trump, when the Syrians gassed their people and Trump ordered 60-70 Tomahawk cruise missles to the air field that launched the attack, which was housing Russian troops that were aiding and supporting the Syrian forces, he let the Syrians and Russians know that it better not happen again. It didn't.... Trump was either rationally irrational or irrationally rational, not sure which one but it worked in dealing with this type of issue. Kennedy was holding all the cards and played them very well in dealing with Kruschev.

Trump also warned the Russians in advance so that it was mostly for show.

 

[watu05]

The Cuban missile crisis was in some ways similar to Russia’s complaint about the Ukraine. Putin portrayed Ukraine joining NATO as equivalent to Khrushchev putting missiles just off the coast of the U.S. Major powers expect to have safe buffer zones around them. The US is relatively content now to let those buffer countries govern themselves. Russia or Putin wants his own man in control.

 

[TUMe]

So the Democrats strongly reject the idea that Biden is has been for a long time senile.

Then the first day he says our 82nd Airborne will see a lot when they are in Ukraine. After that he says Putin needs to go. I agree with the latter.

It gets more weird. Both times they back off what he said. And while he is still overseas. Very disrespectful with him out of the country. Who made that decision? I believe it to be a White House employee. If you have an underling who did this you would be just a tad pissed. But he is used to such things by now, example "I'm not supposed to talk about this."

 

[noble cane]

Cracks in the alliance?

UK says Russian sanctions could be lifted with Ukraine withdrawal

British foreign minister Liz Truss says sanctions imposed on Russian individuals and companies could be lifted if Russia withdraws from Ukraine and commits to end aggression, the Telegraph newspaper reported on Saturday.

www.reuters.com

The UK appears to be good with a withdrawal and no restitution for a country in shambles..

 

[drboobay]

Cracks in the alliance?

UK says Russian sanctions could be lifted with Ukraine withdrawal

British foreign minister Liz Truss says sanctions imposed on Russian individuals and companies could be lifted if Russia withdraws from Ukraine and commits to end aggression, the Telegraph newspaper reported on Saturday.

www.reuters.com

The UK appears to be good with a withdrawal and no restitution for a country in shambles..

This does not bother me too much.

We need Russia to feel they can leave.

 

[noble cane]

This does not bother me too much.

We need Russia to feel they can leave.

They need to leave.. and fix what they broke..

Unprovoked aggression cannot go unpunished, just because its economically beneficial.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

They need to leave.. and fix what they broke..

Unprovoked aggression cannot go unpunished, just because its economically beneficial.

It Russia 🇷🇺 leaves and countries allied with them can go in to help them rebuild, I am alright with that.

While we(Britain, France 🇫🇷, Germany 🇩🇪, Poland 🇵🇱, US, etc) help them rebuild, we can provide them with defensive systems that will be a deterrence the next time Russia 🇷🇺 gets an itch.

 

[watu05]

Meanwhile China and India sit it out, careful not to cross a line with either the west or Russia. Let the West and Russia spend lives and treasure duking it out and hurting each other's economy. Meanwhile China and India (who don't like each other much either) save their dough and focus on their economic growth. Neither like what Russia is doing in the Ukraine, but a majority in both countries hold the US and NATO ultimately responsible for encircling Russia which they, like Putin, view as a threat.

Bottom line: a majority of the world doesn't like what Russia is doing and wants peace but that same majority think the US is responsible for the situation. Heck even some in our congress say the same thing.

 

[drboobay]

Meanwhile China and India sit it out, careful not to cross a line with either the west or Russia. Let the West and Russia spend lives and treasure duking it out and hurting each other's economy. Meanwhile China and India (who don't like each other much either) save their dough and focus on their economic growth. Neither like what Russia is doing in the Ukraine, but a majority in both countries hold the US and NATO ultimately responsible for encircling Russia which they, like Putin, view as a threat.

Bottom line: a majority of the world doesn't like what Russia is doing and wants peace but that same majority think the US is responsible for the situation. Heck even some in our congress say the same thing.

That is a ridiculous assertion.

 

[URedskin54]

Yeah I’m not seeing how an entirely defensive alliance is supposed to have posed any threat to Russia

 

[TUMe]

British Foreign Minister and our Secretary of State seem to be overruling the person elected to make the final decisions. This is somewhat appealing in the case of Biden but it sets an odd precedent when appointed officials overrule the person in charge Constitutionally. Biden was elected and appointed the Secretary of State who now negates things Biden has done, even before he returns home. I guess it is once again evidence that that many consider Biden to be senile and not allowed to speak as the President.

 

[noble cane]

It Russia 🇷🇺 leaves and countries allied with them can go in to help them rebuild, I am alright with that.

While we(Britain, France 🇫🇷, Germany 🇩🇪, Poland 🇵🇱, US, etc) help them rebuild, we can provide them with defensive systems that will be a deterrence the next time Russia 🇷🇺 gets an itch.

So.. we spend our treasure to rebuild what Russia broke?...
Where are we going to get that treasure? Are you going to ask the American people to pay more taxes and go further into debt to pay for Russia's war?

 

[lawpoke87]

We are going to spend billions of dollars to rebuild an European country we wouldn’t protect from a Russian invasion and won’t protect the next time it occurs?

 

[Gmoney4WW]

So.. we spend our treasure to rebuild what Russia broke?...
Where are we going to get that treasure? Are you going to ask the American people to pay more taxes and go further into debt to pay for Russia's war?

I, & the rest of the allies would probably be fine with it, if we were able to put in the deterrence to it happening again. Equal sharing of the cost would allleviate it for us. Yeah we'd like Russia to foot the bill, but getting that done would be next to impossible. And it would require concessions that the allies would not get involved with helping install a defense system.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

We are going to spend billions of dollars to rebuild an European country we wouldn’t protect from a Russian invasion and won’t protect the next time it occurs?

We wouldn't protect it because of the threat of action turning into a WW.

 

[drboobay]

War is ugly and perfect Solutions to ending wars are hard to find. Civilians reap the worst of it.

Many of my relatives lived through the Lebanese Civil War of the 70s and 80s. My aunt's husband was shot and killed while tending to his garden. Syrian forces went through my mom's village house to house killing men who were unable to fund hiding places.

Ending the people's suffering is very important.

 

[lawpoke87]

We wouldn't protect it because of the threat of action turning into a WW.

I agree. My question is do we spend billions and billions to rebuild a European country we won’t protect in the future against invasion ?

 

[noble cane]

I, & the rest of the allies would probably be fine with it, if we were able to put in the deterrence to it happening again. Equal sharing of the cost would allleviate it for us. Yeah we'd like Russia to foot the bill, but getting that done would be next to impossible. And it would require concessions that the allies would not get involved with helping install a defense system.

So... now our foreign policy is essentially... dont worry that an aggressor invades your country, destroys your infrastructure, kills your children, rapes your women and forces millions of your citizens into exile... America will show its strength and do what we do best.. throw dollars at the problem after the fact..

I am confused... in one part of your post you talk of installing deterrence.. in another you talk of conceding that no defensive systems will be installed.. which is it?

 

[Gmoney4WW]

So... now our foreign policy is essentially... dont worry that an aggressor invades your country, destroys your infrastructure, kills your children, rapes your women and forces millions of your citizens into exile... America will show its strength and do what we do best.. throw dollars at the problem after the fact..

I am confused... in one part of your post you talk of installing deterrence.. in another you talk of conceding that no defensive systems will be installed.. which is it?

I was saying that if we could get Russia 🇷🇺 to foot 👣 the bill,(not likely) then they would probably only do it if Ukrainian allies promised they would not provide weapons(of deterrence) after they pulled out.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

So... now our foreign policy is essentially... dont worry that an aggressor invades your country, destroys your infrastructure, kills your children, rapes your women and forces millions of your citizens into exile... America will show its strength and do what we do best.. throw dollars at the problem after the fact..

I am confused... in one part of your post you talk of installing deterrence.. in another you talk of conceding that no defensive systems will be installed.. which is it?

So you would rather all of Ukraine's European and American allies got involved and then it became a WW? That would probably entail China 🇨🇳, Turkey 🇹🇷, So Korea 🇰🇷, Iran, Syria 🇮🇷 etc, coming to Russias aid.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I agree. My question is do we spend billions and billions to rebuild a European country we won’t protect in the future against invasion ?

If Russia 🇷🇺 pulled a repeat 🔁 of this, I really do believe their allies, including us, would help defend them. We would be better set economically. (europeans would not be so energy reliant on Russia 🇷🇺)

Doing it again would be one step too far for Ukraine's allies.

 

[TUMe]

I watched a video on TV just minutes ago where Biden was welcoming a young woman from Ukraine. He had one arm on each shoulder and was telling her she had beautiful eyes like china. He asked her about her parents eyes. I am not joking. I got a phone call that was long so I didn't see how it ended. I don't know if he smelled her hair.

All politics aside, this is fast coming unraveled. He needs to be evaluated. His comments about Putin are just going to make Putin worse.

 

[drboobay]

I watched a video on TV just minutes ago where Biden was welcoming a young woman from Ukraine. He had one arm on each shoulder and was telling her she had beautiful eyes like china. He asked her about her parents eyes. I am not joking. I got a phone call that was long so I didn't see how it ended. I don't know if he smelled her hair.

All politics aside, this is fast coming unraveled. He needs to be evaluated. His comments about Putin are just going to make Putin worse.

No worse than Reagan during his second term imo. Both were starting to lose their mental sharpness.

 

[noble cane]

So you would rather all of Ukraine's European and American allies got involved and then it became a WW? That would probably entail China 🇨🇳, Turkey 🇹🇷, So Korea 🇰🇷, Iran, Syria 🇮🇷 etc, coming to Russias aid.

I dont think it would have come to that.. but, i do think that the fear of it has damaged our credibility as a deterrent to aggression. We have shown that we are scared to take on someone our own size.

If Russia invaded Lithuania to open a corridor to Kaliningrad, other than the NATO agreement, what changes? They still have nukes; we still have nukes. Are we not risking a WW just to defend Lithuania? Personally, i think the talk of NATO unity when it comes to Russia is just that. Talk.

China has nukes. Are we going to let them take Taiwan and the South Pacific? Just to avoid a WW?

I think that you dont stand by and watch your neighbors house get robbed and his family violated, just because the robber has friends that might come after you.

 

[lawpoke87]

No worse than Reagan during his second term imo. Both were starting to lose their mental sharpness.

Reagan certainly had issues late in his second term. Fortunately, he had beaten the USSR into submission by then. Today is a much different dynamic. From the WSJ

Opinion | Biden at the Improv: Ukraine and the Dangers of Foreign Policy by Open Mic

What if someone takes seriously his talk of U.S. troop deployments or regime change in Russia?

www.wsj.com

 

[noble cane]

Reagan certainly had issues late in his second term. Fortunately, he had beaten the USSR into submission by then. Today is a much different dynamic. From the WSJ

Opinion | Biden at the Improv: Ukraine and the Dangers of Foreign Policy by Open Mic

What if someone takes seriously his talk of U.S. troop deployments or regime change in Russia?

www.wsj.com

I remember when Reagan made a joke about bombing the Soviet Union as a mic check and the world lost its sh!t...

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I dont think it would have come to that.. but, i do think that the fear of it has damaged our credibility as a deterrent to aggression. We have shown that we are scared to take on someone our own size.

If Russia invaded Lithuania to open a corridor to Kaliningrad, other than the NATO agreement, what changes? They still have nukes; we still have nukes. Are we not risking a WW just to defend Lithuania? Personally, i think the talk of NATO unity when it comes to Russia is just that. Talk.

China has nukes. Are we going to let them take Taiwan and the South Pacific? Just to avoid a WW?

I think that you dont stand by and watch your neighbors house get robbed and his family violated, just because the robber has friends that might come after you.

You may be right, I go back and forth on this issue.

I don't think Putin has the balls to use nukes and get them right up his arse, in retaliation. His crazy act, I might do anything, is just that, an act. I realize his ego is a bit wounded, but it's not wounded enough to lose his senses.

I think involvement by the US and allies would give him an avenue to argue with his allies about getting involved and that he would test the waters.

It's not Putin who I would fear. Everybody else going all in to his pleadings, is what my big fear is. Although I say 💭 that now, after having seen the ineptitude of his military. That wasn't as evident early on.

 

[noble cane]

I have always thought that the best Russian soldier/weapon was the snow, freezing temps and vast spaces of land. Never really had much historical respect for the Russians as a military.. history shows that they have trouble against well organized, equipped, and determined foes.

We Overestimated Russia

Experts told Newsweek that they were surprised by the struggles of Vladimir Putin's forces in Ukraine.

www.newsweek.com

 

[watu05]

That is a ridiculous assertion.

Which one? That China is sitting it out? That a majority of the world may view US/NATO encirclement of Russia as a threat to Russia? (Heck even Tucker was in on that) . That a majority of the world wants peace?

You may think giving Russia a break is ridiculous (so do I) , but that doesn’t mean that view is a majority biew. Blame controlled press (Russia, China), historical ties (India), blame whatever you want, but it’s there.

 

[drboobay]

Which one? That China is sitting it out? That a majority of the world may view US/NATO encirclement of Russia as a threat to Russia? (Heck even Tucker was in on that) . That a majority of the world wants peace?

You may think giving Russia a break is ridiculous (so do I) , but that doesn’t mean that view is a majority biew. Blame controlled press (Russia, China), historical ties (India), blame whatever you want, but it’s there.

The insinuation that we share some blame for Putin's attack due to the expansion of NATO.

 

[watu05]

The insinuation that we share some blame for Putin's attack due to the expansion of NATO.

OK, but it is arguably the view of a majority of the world. Like it or not, it is out there and influences the decisions and policies of other countries.