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The First Debate

lawpoke87 said:
Fairly confident he was talking about solar planes as electric planes of any size aren’t currently feasible due to the weight of the batteries required to store the energy.
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How in the hell can you defend that statement? Like seriously.

For literally anyone building a “solar plane”the first thing they would think about is a battery charging system.

Moreover it’s just an attack on innovation, the likes of which 90% of Trumps audience can’t really understand. (The same folks who were asked to “do their own research”)

There are many opportunities in the aviation space to, if nothing else, greatly decrease the greenhouse emissions of commercial air travel. Trump’s allies want to keep the country hooked on fossil fuels so they will push carbon capture, even though that doesn’t really solve the nation’s climate issues. There could also be opportunities to use other sorts of power (battery, hydrogen) etc… during cruising to reduce emmissions, even if you wanted the extra power for jet propulsion for takeoff.
 
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astonmartin708 said:
How in the hell can you defend that statement? Like seriously.

For literally anyone building a “solar plane”the first thing they would think about is a battery charging system.

Moreover it’s just an attack on innovation, the likes of which 90% of Trumps audience can’t really understand. (The same folks who were asked to “do their own research”)

There are many opportunities in the aviation space to, if nothing else, greatly decrease the greenhouse emissions of commercial air travel. Trump’s allies want to keep the country hooked on fossil fuels so they will push carbon capture, even though that doesn’t really solve the nation’s climate issues. There could also be opportunities to use other sorts of power (battery, hydrogen) etc… during cruising to reduce emmissions, even if you wanted the extra power for jet propulsion for takeoff.
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Electric planes of any size simply aren’t currently feasible and won’t be for the foreseeable future. The whole weight and getting off the ground thing. It’s not complicated. Solar is a little more feasible as long as your generating electricity as you fly thus eliminating the need to large heavy batteries to store the energy. Not sure why you’re talking about electric planes when technology isn’t close to making such a thing work.
 
lawpoke87 said:
Electric planes of any size simply aren’t currently feasible and won’t be for the foreseeable future. The whole weight and getting off the ground thing. It’s not complicated. Solar is a little more feasible as long as your generating electricity as you fly thus eliminating the need to large heavy batteries to store the energy. Not sure why you’re talking about electric planes when technology isn’t close to making such a thing work.
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This guy has never heard of RC planes or drones I suppose.

This isn’t even true. All Electric passenger style planes (think Cessna to Learjet) have already been developed and flown.

You’re referring to Airliners which do have a problem.

Again, the political position is just a front in order to sell the public on developing an technology and infrastructure that my donors control instead of someone else’s
 
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astonmartin708 said:
This guy has never heard of RC planes or drones I suppose.

This isn’t even true. All Electric passenger style planes (think Cessna to Learjet) have already been developed and flown.

You’re referring to Airliners which do have a problem.

Again, the political position is just a front in order to sell the public on developing an technology and infrastructure that my donors control instead of someone else’s
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I failed English 101 in my post. I meant to say “larger planes”. Do you have a link to passenger electric planes which are being flown. I would like to read about how far the technology has come if in fact we’re able to produce viable passenger planes ran on electricity (not solar).
 
lawpoke87 said:
I failed English 101 in my post. I meant to say “larger planes”. Do you have a link to passenger electric planes which are being flown. I would like to read about how far the technology has come if in fact we’re able to produce viable passenger planes ran on electricity (not solar).
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en.wikipedia.org

Eviation Alice - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

I’m not saying this is the end-all-be-all of this technology. But it got off the ground…

I would also say that there are many, many innovative ways that electricity and storage can be used to propel humans into and through the air. We should not minimize it as a possibility just because of some of its limitations anymore than we should have minimized Jet fuel for its potential safety hazards as a flammable substance when combustion engine flight was first being developed.

If the fundamentals are strong, you can innovate. Maybe we use a catapult system to get these things going and use some ground based power to alleviate the off-grounding energy needs.
 
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lawpoke87 said:
Looks like it’s flown for 8 minutes. Hopefully it turns out to be feasible. I see operational date projected to be sometime in 2027.
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How long did the first Wright Brother’s flight last? How long after that before they could carry significant cargo? 😉
 
astonmartin708 said:
How long did the first Wright Brother’s flight last? How long after that before they could carry significant cargo? 😉
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Hopefully the technology develops to make electric commercial aircraft feasible. Still believe we are a decade or so away. Assume lighter batteries and more wing surface area are some of the keys here.
 
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lawpoke87 said:
Hopefully the technology develops to make electric commercial aircraft feasible. Still believe we are a decade or so away. Assume lighter batteries and more wing surface area are some of the keys here.
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You’re probably correct, but just keep in mind that commercial passenger air travel took around 30 years to develop after the advent of combustion driven heavier-than-air flight. And that required a bunch in subsidies for the government to keep airline companies afloat while they were during out the technology and being mostly employed to deliver mail.

10 years from the first flight to commercial travel would be a 3x improvement…. And it might help improve that timeline if people weren’t disparaging it as a inviable exploration.
 
astonmartin708 said:
You’re probably correct, but just keep in mind that commercial passenger air travel took around 30 years to develop after the advent of combustion driven heavier-than-air flight. And that required a bunch in subsidies for the government to keep airline companies afloat while they were during out the technology and being mostly employed to deliver mail.

10 years from the first flight to commercial travel would be a 3x improvement…. And it might help improve that timeline if people weren’t disparaging it as a inviable exploration.
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The good news is the technology for electric cars seems to be similar to that of planes. Lots of research going into developing lighter longer lasting batteries. I have zero clue as to the technology nor the barriers we face in developing light batteries which can store large amount of power.
 
lawpoke87 said:
Hopefully the technology develops to make electric commercial aircraft feasible. Still believe we are a decade or so away. Assume lighter batteries and more wing surface area are some of the keys here.
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Graphene technology should be helped by another 10 years. The only fully produced graphene coating on airplane wings has been a prototype drone. The wings were 11.5 feet in length, and 17% lighter than if they had coated it with carbon fiber. And that's only coating it with graphene. If the technology becomes cheap enough and advanced enough to make things like the wings out of sheets of graphene and epoxies, it could reduce the weight of the entire aircraft by 30%, if used throughout the entire aircraft. But that technology is probably not 10 years from now. More like 30 years. I'm guessing it will be utilized enough to lighten the aircraft weight by 5% in 10 years.

I don't think that tech will be dissuaded or disadvantaged by Trump's disfavor.
 
lawpoke87 said:
The good news is the technology for electric cars seems to be similar to that of planes. Lots of research going into developing lighter longer lasting batteries. I have zero clue as to the technology nor the barriers we face in developing light batteries which can store large amount of power.
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I’ll tell you that the utility scale battery storage I have visited are quite impressive. They’re not solutions to all of our problems, and there are operational issues to work through, but there is a lot of promise there.
 
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CNN now going after Dems for hiding Biden’s cognitive decline. The same station who claimed what we saw was doctored is now asking how can you not believe what you saw and heard? Just bizarre.

 
astonmartin708 said:
Have you seen who now owns CNN?

www.vox.com

Billionaire John Malone loves Fox News. But he owns a piece of CNN.

One of the world’s most powerful news outlets has a new mandate.
www.vox.com www.vox.com
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That article is two years old. CNN has been a Biden and Dem mouthpiece during that time. The only thing which has changed is CNN now realizes Biden can’t beat Trump and are trying to help the Dems torpedo his nomination. Reminding people of his cognitive issues despite claiming they are fiction over the past four years are the marching orders. CNN is still an extension of the Dem party. A party which now wants Biden out.
 
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lawpoke87 said:
That article is two years old. CNN has been a Biden and Dem mouthpiece during that time. The only thing which has changed is CNN now realizes Biden can’t beat Trump and are trying to help the Dems torpedo his nomination. Reminding people of his cognitive issues despite claiming they are fiction over the past four years are the marching orders. CNN is still an extension of the Dem party. A party which now wants Biden out.
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Yep, that's the only thing that's changed. They see a weakening candidate that lost ground in the debate. That's gives them the excuse and the reason to attack Biden's candidacy. The majority of liberal pundits knew of Biden's situation, or had strong suspicions about it through the rumor mill. I guarantee you there was not as much surprise in the media as they are portraying.
 
aTUfan said:
why bother having the primaries where voters choose the party candidate, if in the end, the party leaders pick who they want?
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God, where did you happen onto that criticism. If they choose someone else, it will only be if he drops out. What a loon you are. Like the party or him want this situation. Go smell your fart in the dark. What a cheese ass comment. I don't think too many Democrats out there will be making the complaint that they were robbed of Joe Biden if that happens. I hope that happens to the Republicans, so you can make that complaint all the way to the election. I want my DONALD, I want my Donald. Waaaaahhh!!! SMH at your ignorance. You really must want to be slapped down.
 
Gmoney4WW said:
God, where did you happen onto that criticism. If they choose someone else, it will only be if he drops out. What a loon you are. Like the party or him want this situation. Go smell your fart in the dark. What a cheese ass comment. I don't think too many Democrats out there will be making the complaint that they were robbed of Joe Biden if that happens. I hope that happens to the Republicans, so you can make that complaint all the way to the election. I want my DONALD, I want my Donald. Waaaaahhh!!! SMH at your ignorance. You really must want to be slapped down.
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this decision should have been made a year ago so the voter could have had a choice.

bait and switch
 
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Biden has been stubborn his entire life. He will likely be more stubborn about this, than anything else. It is admitting to himself that he is through with his career, and his political life. That's not an easy thing to admit, and bad traits like stubbornness get louder the older you get. signed Mr Captain Obvious.
 
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lawpoke87 said:
CNN now going after Dems for hiding Biden’s cognitive decline. The same station who claimed what we saw was doctored is now asking how can you not believe what you saw and heard? Just bizarre.

View embedded media
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I think you have a situation where he's been so shielded from most Dems even on Capitol Hill, that nobody really actually knows what kind of mental state he is in. That's part of what is causing the absolute panic. The regular rank-and-file house members feel like maybe they were lied to about his true condition, and frankly, so do I.

He did rattle off lots of factoids and actually got better as the debate wore on, which is a mitigating factor.

But the fact that the party leaders themselves seem to be in the dark as to if their candidate is actually in decline or not is a problem, even if he is perfectly fine. It means he's so isolated that when he stumbles, nobody knows what the hell to make of it.

Meanwhile, Donald Trump has signaled support for trying Liz Cheney via a military tribunal for treason on national television. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/07/02/trump-boosts-cheney-military-tribunal-post/74281288007/ And we all know what the penalty for treason is.

I feel like I am in that split second between realizing I am about to crash my car, but not being able to do anything about it. I know that whatever happens next, it's going to hurt.

Personally, I'd rather have a well intentioned animated corpse than a power-hungry maniac that will disrupt many of our alliances. Sucks that is the choice, but that is the current choice.
 
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Clong83a said:
Meanwhile, Donald Trump has signaled support for trying Liz Cheney via a military tribunal for treason on national television. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/07/02/trump-boosts-cheney-military-tribunal-post/74281288007/ And we all know what the penalty for treason is.
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Niiiice! Such a kind man he is.

She is the one that probably pissed him off the most from the time he ran for office in 2016 till now. He is lucky more people didn't follow her lead. She is a very brave and principled individual. He hates that. He'd love to pull the handle on her.
 
Clong83a said:
I think you have a situation where he's been so shielded from most Dems even on Capitol Hill, that nobody really actually knows what kind of mental state he is in. That's part of what is causing the absolute panic. The regular rank-and-file house members feel like maybe they were lied to about his true condition, and frankly, so do I.
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Congress and the like see enough of him, that they had to suspect more than the average bear though??? Can't imagine enough didn't meet with him at the White House about issues or speak on the phone. They do talk. It's not like their isn't a gossip mill on the hill. Aides talk in confidence with congress too.(Despite likely being warned not too.)
 
Gmoney4WW said:
Congress and the like see enough of him, that they had to suspect more than the average bear though??? Can't imagine enough didn't meet with him at the White House about issues or speak on the phone. They do talk. It's not like their isn't a gossip mill on the hill. Aides talk in confidence with congress too.(Despite likely being warned not too.)
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I don't really know. Things I have been reading lately suggest that his inner circle keep him very well-guarded, even some of his lesser aides no longer have regular contact with him. Not a good sign.

One of the Dem Congressman Politico spoke to suggested Biden could address a lot of concerns by agreeing to an unscripted, closed door caucus meeting. Being able to handle a large crowd that has some pointed questions would go a long way to restoring confidence. But he hasn't (yet) agreed.
 
Clong83a said:
I don't really know. Things I have been reading lately suggest that his inner circle keep him very well-guarded, even some of his lesser aides no longer have regular contact with him. Not a good sign.

One of the Dem Congressman Politico spoke to suggested Biden could address a lot of concerns by agreeing to an unscripted, closed door caucus meeting. Being able to handle a large crowd that has some pointed questions would go a long way to restoring confidence. But he hasn't (yet) agreed.
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Lesser aides not having regular contact with him is a warning sign. Maybe that works for a while, but the longer it goes on, the louder the buzz gets. Especially in the middle of a campaign.

It would resolve problems to have a caucus, but probably not in the way that he wants. There are problems there that likely cannot be covered up in a setting like that. Even if the problems don't hinder him in most situations of carrying out his duties, the Republicans & conservative media would shred him and never let go. The Democrats in the caucus would know that in the caucus. It likely would take mental exams(not the fake ones from 'ronny' that Trump bragged about.) and a lot of talk from doctors, to convince people if he is still capable of his duties. That won't happen. I don't think there is going to be a route out of this situation for Biden. He is going to lose or drop out.
 
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Biden will drop out. Donations have dried up. Polling numbers aren’t good. Big money boosters want him out. Media has turned on him. The race to replace him is likely going to be chaotic. The race card regarding Kamala has already been played by several black congressional Dems. Big money people want anyone but Kamala.
 
lawpoke87 said:
Biden will drop out. Donations have dried up. Polling numbers aren’t good. Big money boosters want him out. Media has turned on him. The race to replace him is likely going to be chaotic. The race card regarding Kamala has already been played by several black congressional Dems. Big money people want anyone but Kamala.
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I think they need to come up with a talented mystery candidate similar to what Huffy was talking about. The old candidates, especially Kamala are not going to do it. It's time to barnstorm the Republicans with a new candidate if the Democrats want to have any success.
 
Clong83a said:
I think you have a situation where he's been so shielded from most Dems even on Capitol Hill, that nobody really actually knows what kind of mental state he is in. That's part of what is causing the absolute panic. The regular rank-and-file house members feel like maybe they were lied to about his true condition, and frankly, so do I.

He did rattle off lots of factoids and actually got better as the debate wore on, which is a mitigating factor.

But the fact that the party leaders themselves seem to be in the dark as to if their candidate is actually in decline or not is a problem, even if he is perfectly fine. It means he's so isolated that when he stumbles, nobody knows what the hell to make of it.

Meanwhile, Donald Trump has signaled support for trying Liz Cheney via a military tribunal for treason on national television. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/07/02/trump-boosts-cheney-military-tribunal-post/74281288007/ And we all know what the penalty for treason is.

I feel like I am in that split second between realizing I am about to crash my car, but not being able to do anything about it. I know that whatever happens next, it's going to hurt.

Personally, I'd rather have a well intentioned animated corpse than a power-hungry maniac that will disrupt many of our alliances. Sucks that is the choice, but that is the current choice.
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It seems like an easy choice to me. Especially after the Supremes ruling on immunity. That be scary.
 
drboobay said:
It seems like an easy choice to me. Especially after the Supremes ruling on immunity. That be scary.
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It's not hard for me either, we've had diminished presidents before. Wilson, Reagan, and possibly a couple others. Not ideal, but can be managed. We've never had a dictator wannabe with a fresh license to bend the law to his whims before, and that scares me a hell of a lot more.

A candidate that is clearly of full faculty would make the decision a lot easier for some people, or draw back in some of those that are saying they'll vote for Kennedy in protest.
 
Gmoney4WW said:
Lesser aides not having regular contact with him is a warning sign. Maybe that works for a while, but the longer it goes on, the louder the buzz gets. Especially in the middle of a campaign.

It would resolve problems to have a caucus, but probably not in the way that he wants. There are problems there that likely cannot be covered up in a setting like that. Even if the problems don't hinder him in most situations of carrying out his duties, the Republicans & conservative media would shred him and never let go. The Democrats in the caucus would know that in the caucus. It likely would take mental exams(not the fake ones from 'ronny' that Trump bragged about.) and a lot of talk from doctors, to convince people if he is still capable of his duties. That won't happen. I don't think there is going to be a route out of this situation for Biden. He is going to lose or drop out.
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Evidently, he hasn't even spoken to Jeffries since the debate. I agree that they could and maybe should hold a caucus meeting with Biden present, but the only way that ends well for Biden is if Biden is vigorous, of full faculty, and doesn't have a single slip up that a malcontent member might leak to the press. And yeah, maybe follow that up with a couple of public unscripted interviews and an independent cognitive assessment. He passes all that, and he might recover his standing.

I don't know if he is capable of that. And if he is, then all I can ask is what the hell is he waiting for?
 
My personal observations from watching this board is that we have very few right wing zealots (sorry ATUfan, you might be the only obvious one). We probably have a few more rabid left wingers than right wingers actually.

Others like Huffy and Lawpoke come across as thoughtful conservatives and/or Biden critics rather than blind zealots. It keeps things interesting to have smart people providing differing views.
 
drboobay said:
My personal observations from watching this board is that we have very few right wing zealots (sorry ATUfan, you might be the only obvious one). We probably have a few more rabid left wingers than right wingers actually.

Others like Huffy and Lawpoke come across as thoughtful conservatives and/or Biden critics rather than blind zealots. It keeps things interesting to have smart people providing differing views.
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right wing zealot? how?
 
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