Pray For Israel 🇮🇱 🙏
- Thread starter TulsaFanFromStigler
- Start date
All roads lead back to Iran. Giving them $6B wasn’t the best look.
Pray for Lebanon too.
The population is held hostage to Hezbollah. I fear they will provoke Israel and the population will suffer.
The population is held hostage to Hezbollah. I fear they will provoke Israel and the population will suffer.
Gaza will be leveled. Hopefully Lebanon is spared. Expect that will depend upon whether hostages are being held there or operations originated inside Lebanon.
And even more innocent people will be killed. There are plenty of folks in Iran who live under the oppressive regime that has been in place for decades.
What proceeds from here (likely the complete takeover of Gaza, elimination of hamas, and the number of civilians dead as a result) are the natural consequences of the ISIS level atrocities committed yesterday. Rape and intentional mass murder as a war tactic should result in a ruthless response and it will.
Hamas had a chance to show the supposed righteous of its cause and wage a war against the Israeli military. It instead chose what we saw. There can be no question of what their aims actually are. The cheering crowds of Palestinians as raped and murdered women were paraded around like trophies says quite a bit as well.
Hamas had a chance to show the supposed righteous of its cause and wage a war against the Israeli military. It instead chose what we saw. There can be no question of what their aims actually are. The cheering crowds of Palestinians as raped and murdered women were paraded around like trophies says quite a bit as well.
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A majority of Palestinians support Hamas. At least those were the numbers prior to this latest attack. I do feel sorry for the innocent people on both sides which have and will lose their lives in this conflict. That said, the Palestinians can’t support a terrorist organization and expect any type of peaceful or normal existence. Will this action change the pro Hamas opinions over there? Sadly…probably not
Israel will ultimately be fine, though it will continue to be somewhat painful. Pray for Ukraine where the outcome is much less assured and far more innocents are dying with much less provocation.
The Israeli Palestinian conflict is a lopsided one in the Israeli’s favor unless someone like Iran or Egypt decides to grow a pair and step into the ring.
This media amplification is being echoed by Moscow as a way to push attention away from their activities. I wouldn't be surprised if they were supporting Hamas behind the scenes for just this reason.
The Israeli Palestinian conflict is a lopsided one in the Israeli’s favor unless someone like Iran or Egypt decides to grow a pair and step into the ring.
This media amplification is being echoed by Moscow as a way to push attention away from their activities. I wouldn't be surprised if they were supporting Hamas behind the scenes for just this reason.
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Militarily Israel will be able to desrtoy Hamas and turn Gaza into sand. (With our weapons and without our boots)... The same cannot be said for the Ukraine. Without Western intervention with ground troops and air support all we will have is a continual meat grinder wasting blood, treasure, and goodwill. All your prayers for Ukraine are hollow unless you are willimg to send our sons and daughters to die on the Dnieper.Israel will ultimately be fine, though it will continue to be somewhat painful. Pray for Ukraine where the outcome is much less assured and far more innocents are dying with much less provocation.
The Israeli Palestinian conflict is a lopsided one in the Israeli’s favor unless someone like Iran or Egypt decides to grow a pair and step into the ring.
This media amplification is being echoed by Moscow as a way to push attention away from their activities. I wouldn't be surprised if they were supporting Hamas behind the scenes for just this reason.
So you only care about the sanctity of life when it’s convenient and the enemy is weaker than you. Got it.
Just a schoolyard bully.
Still trying to wrap my head around those who are decrying the loss of life in the Israeli - Hamas conflict while supporting a Ukrainian policy which all but guarantees the mass loss of lives in perpetuity.
I support a Ukrainian policy that at a minimum gives them a fighting chance of keeping their country, because we convinced them to give up nuclear ambitions with the promise that we would. If we can give more then great let’s do that. But at a minimum it would be nice for at least one American promise to mean something rather than being a joke in every instance
No.. i'm saying grow some balls and back up your prayers with ground troops...
Just for clarity, I’m not decrying the loss of life in Israel, I think both sides on that conflict are royally flawed and continue to perpetuate violence for a variety of motives, the most significant of which is probably a simple vendetta.
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To be fair, there will be no peace in the Middle East until Iran stops using these terrorist groups as their proxies. To date they have shown no desire to be a good actor in the region. Regardless of how much money we give them or concessions we make. Maybe time for a shift in foreign policy ?
Just curious, have any of you spent any time in Israel or the Ukraine, whether that be as a tourist or otherwise? Im always curious if folks who have actually been to these places, met their people, tried to understand their history, etc. before drawing conclusions and formulating opinions.
(I’ve worked for extended periods in both.)
(I’ve worked for extended periods in both.)
While in Israel, did you have time to:
1. Visit an interfaith kibbutz where Jews, Arabs, and Christians live in a communal setting committed to peace?
2. Visit a majority Muslim city that was formerly majority Christian for thousands of years because of the public policy of the state of Israel displacing people from the West Bank?
3. Visit the West Bank and visit with someone openly advocating genocidal violence and war crimes in casual conversation.
4. Have the water and electricity cut off arbitrarily in the middle of your restaurant meal on the West Bank by the State of Israel?
5. Hear air raid sirens and take cover from Iranian drone incursions?
6. Stand at a bus stop and casually mention to someone else waiting that it was the sturdiest bus stop you’ve ever used and have them say that’s because 6 of their neighbors were run down by a car intentionally by Palestinians?
7. Go through the prison style border crossing into Bethlehem from Israel controlled territories?
8. Have someone call the police and kick you out of their Airbnb they were opening for you at 9pm when they discover you are not a Jew, leaving you with no place to stay in the middle of a tiny town without transpo late at night? Which apparently is completely legal in that area of the country.
9. Have your church close its doors in protest of the state of Israel taxing Christians and Muslims at different rates than Jews?
I could go on.
The point is that the conflict you are witnessing is multigenerational and extremely complex. It’s not as simple of who you “stand” with.
Our domestic politics is devolving into a Pepsi Challenge on overseas politics. You are a good liberal if you “stand” with Ukraine. You are a good conservative if you unconditionally support Israel. You can virtue signal to your friends how bad you think the Israelis are, though you’ve never been there, don’t speak the language, know anyone personally impacted by the violence there, or even spend five minutes understanding why American foreign policy globally is closely tied to Israel and any shift in that policy would have dramatic changes to not only US domestic prosperity and elections, but global commerce.
The world view of America right now is that we are divided, heavily in debt, we don’t take world affairs seriously nominating for a second term someone as low functioning and slow to react as Biden, and no matter what we do, it will all come to a stop every third year of four year cycles, whereupon current policies may completely reverse.
We are in serious trouble. There are no clear answers. Making this latest round of violence a referendum on whether Israel is morally pure or not is a grave mistake. The manipulation of the American public into extreme positions opposed to one another has to stop. We can be and should be pragmatic in our approach to events in the Levant without betraying our commitments.
1. Visit an interfaith kibbutz where Jews, Arabs, and Christians live in a communal setting committed to peace?
2. Visit a majority Muslim city that was formerly majority Christian for thousands of years because of the public policy of the state of Israel displacing people from the West Bank?
3. Visit the West Bank and visit with someone openly advocating genocidal violence and war crimes in casual conversation.
4. Have the water and electricity cut off arbitrarily in the middle of your restaurant meal on the West Bank by the State of Israel?
5. Hear air raid sirens and take cover from Iranian drone incursions?
6. Stand at a bus stop and casually mention to someone else waiting that it was the sturdiest bus stop you’ve ever used and have them say that’s because 6 of their neighbors were run down by a car intentionally by Palestinians?
7. Go through the prison style border crossing into Bethlehem from Israel controlled territories?
8. Have someone call the police and kick you out of their Airbnb they were opening for you at 9pm when they discover you are not a Jew, leaving you with no place to stay in the middle of a tiny town without transpo late at night? Which apparently is completely legal in that area of the country.
9. Have your church close its doors in protest of the state of Israel taxing Christians and Muslims at different rates than Jews?
I could go on.
The point is that the conflict you are witnessing is multigenerational and extremely complex. It’s not as simple of who you “stand” with.
Our domestic politics is devolving into a Pepsi Challenge on overseas politics. You are a good liberal if you “stand” with Ukraine. You are a good conservative if you unconditionally support Israel. You can virtue signal to your friends how bad you think the Israelis are, though you’ve never been there, don’t speak the language, know anyone personally impacted by the violence there, or even spend five minutes understanding why American foreign policy globally is closely tied to Israel and any shift in that policy would have dramatic changes to not only US domestic prosperity and elections, but global commerce.
The world view of America right now is that we are divided, heavily in debt, we don’t take world affairs seriously nominating for a second term someone as low functioning and slow to react as Biden, and no matter what we do, it will all come to a stop every third year of four year cycles, whereupon current policies may completely reverse.
We are in serious trouble. There are no clear answers. Making this latest round of violence a referendum on whether Israel is morally pure or not is a grave mistake. The manipulation of the American public into extreme positions opposed to one another has to stop. We can be and should be pragmatic in our approach to events in the Levant without betraying our commitments.
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So if you wanted to write a diatribe then just do that. Don't go asking questions when you intent isnt what you are asking. Im not political at all and haven't posted in this thread at all so it is really weird that you are coming at me in such an off putting manner. I deal with you a lot because you do have some knowledge around TU but your bedside manner is one of the worst I have ever seen. You asked if anyone has been, I have. I went to visit friends and family. If you wanted to make some points then go make your points without all the theatrics.
Fair point. I wasn't coming at you in particular. And I regret you felt that way. My apologies. To the extent Im "coming at" anyone, its the domestic news media that manipulates people into taking positions with very little knowledge of what's going on with this situation. Our country taking pragmatic positions on any issue appears to be impossible right now. And I've seen that played out earlier in this thread.
Everyone on here is very bright, including nearly all of those I typically disagree with. When I do post here, its usually from a standpoint of personal knowledge, just as when I post about TU. You'll notice I post on only a few topics in Crossfire. And just as with TU, its typically to provide additional facts to either help better educate readers or have them understand nuance to what they already know.
As for the method in this instance, it appears that could have been better. I considered it necessary here, because nearly all of us, myself included, and I suspect you as well, had cemented in their minds what was right and what was wrong with the Middle East. Then I/you actually went there. For me at least, it was jarring contrast with what I thought and what I learned. Both good and bad. There's people who have posted in the thread who I strongly suspect have never been there and formed in their minds moral clarity. Nothing is that certain in the Levant. Especially from the mouths of governments/NGOs and their appetite for aid.
And I imagine that you observed positives and negatives from your visit that dont quite align with the policy choices driving American public opinion right now.
So it was necessary to share a little personal experience to challenge the dogma in this thread. Challenge it through questioning whether they personally have verified what they have read/been told. Because my very limited personal experience dealing with the issues that are motivating both sides has left me wondering what is in the best interests of the United States, both short term and long term. And I see very little of that in analysis in the short and long form media. And in this thread as well.
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One thing we never hear mentioned much, is that the classic center left Democratic Party trope on the Vietnam War was that it was an illegitimate attempt by the United States to prop up a corrupt government on the border of a major power during the Cold War which caused the entire region to de-stabilize. As such, America was morally flawed for pursing that course of action and continuing it until Nixon could extract peace terms acceptable to the American public at large.
God knows we might want to think twice about propping up a government that appears somewhat less corrupt than the recent predecessors, but nobody is truly sure just how corrupt at time of war, because its on the border of a major power during a New Cold War, and could cause all of Europe to destabilize.
Putin is completely in the wrong no doubt. Mitt Romney was correct and Obama either very wrong or very limited in what he could say as President when he discounted the Russia threat. But this latest outbreak of violence reminds me of a lecture I went to at the Council on Foreign Relations about decade ago. The subject was whether the globe was in a second Hundred Years War commencing in 1917, but with the principal countries not England and France, but now what we know as the Allied nations and Russia/related powers.
Something to think about it. A larger global war with multiple proxies and no interest in strategic advantage at the points of conflict.
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If you think their perception of us is poor now, just wait until they find out that the other option is even lower functioning and instead of being slow to react, he shoots before aiming. Also, he’ll sell your security for a smile and a complimentary tweet.
There are also the issues of...
Strategic importance
Alliances
Just cause
There is no simple black and white analysis possible.
No, i read their comments on google. where is the outrage? no call to ban them from social media for their dis-information.
I’m still hoping the Squad will come out and condemn Hamas and demand a change in leadership while asking for prayers for the Palestinian civilians in Gaza. Would seem like a fairly reasonable position for the ladies.
It’s interesting to watch in real time, the elected folks calling for war with Hamas and Hezbollah, on a bi-partisan basis, slowly walk back their comments as people who do this stuff for a living quietly remind them that in the last year thousands of special interest aliens have been released into the United States after they travelled from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Palestine, and tens of thousands from Mauritania, where those with fake or no travel documents typically route through from conflict zones in Africa.
Most of these SIAs are unable to be identified positively. Rather than detain them until we are certain who they are or deport them, the Biden Administration has made the purposeful decision to simply take their word for who they are and release them with a court date, mostly because appropriate detention space is already filled with people we’ve caught who are even greater risks.
It only takes one of them to be a sleeper. And if they have not been sending folks to live amongst us before they attack us, they surely will once Gaza is turned into a parking lot and landing strip as a prelude to an attack on the West Bank.
Do you have confidence Customs and Border Protection has the ability to control the border? We don’t know how many people slipped through, but we do know 1.5 million people entered this country last year who were observed and counted by CBP technology, but we lacked the resources to stop them or chose to let them enter because attempting to interdict them in remote desert was not worth the risk to officers.
You’ve got three options here but an unlimited number of counter responses/risks you must account for and balance as threats.
Formal direct military action - this will take months to ramp up.
Diplomatic action akin to warfare - Sanctions isn’t working. We’ve tried that rather than war out of convenience and a desire to avoid hostage taking since January 20, 1981.
Special operations command - covert action won’t satisfy popular political opinion, if it’s covert nobody knows you did anything. And most of that operational element is already there or unsuited for the tasks you would assign.
So we are likely talking some kind of military action but what will that look like and can we handle the blow back? DHS is the post office now after three years of hiring social workers and retiring border patrol agents.
What type of civil liberties are you willing to give up to compensate for the risks here at home from direct military action abroad?
My sense is this country has the moral clarity to see war crimes and atrocities and express frustration and outrage. It lacks the moral clarity to risk the lives of their family and neighbors here at home to actually do something about it on a sustained basis. Nobody marched in support of the Japanese after Pearl Harbor. Harvard didn’t issue a statement in support of Hitler after he went into Poland. We are seeing that here, even if much of it is being shamed or shouted down. That only silences voices, it won’t silence opinion.
And that’s what you are talking about. Are you willing to risk a mass casualty incident here at home for what you see on television? Because we likely don’t have the infrastructure in place to protect you or your family from random mass violence, particularly if you live in an urban area or frequent large gatherings.
And whatever we do, there will be pressure from multiple sides to end it as quick as possible short of a true solution. Assuming we even have the money to borrow for what people want to do. Don’t even think about what your life would look like after ten years of no Chinese investment in our government bonds and the Saudis wanting to be paid in gold. And there’s no guarantee any of that would continue if we decide to go in there.
This is a horrible mess and we are projecting weakness, confusion, and indecision without solutions. We need better world leadership from the USA. And realistic assessments shared with the public on what a US response will actually entail and what might occur here at home if we go to war.
Most of these SIAs are unable to be identified positively. Rather than detain them until we are certain who they are or deport them, the Biden Administration has made the purposeful decision to simply take their word for who they are and release them with a court date, mostly because appropriate detention space is already filled with people we’ve caught who are even greater risks.
It only takes one of them to be a sleeper. And if they have not been sending folks to live amongst us before they attack us, they surely will once Gaza is turned into a parking lot and landing strip as a prelude to an attack on the West Bank.
Do you have confidence Customs and Border Protection has the ability to control the border? We don’t know how many people slipped through, but we do know 1.5 million people entered this country last year who were observed and counted by CBP technology, but we lacked the resources to stop them or chose to let them enter because attempting to interdict them in remote desert was not worth the risk to officers.
You’ve got three options here but an unlimited number of counter responses/risks you must account for and balance as threats.
Formal direct military action - this will take months to ramp up.
Diplomatic action akin to warfare - Sanctions isn’t working. We’ve tried that rather than war out of convenience and a desire to avoid hostage taking since January 20, 1981.
Special operations command - covert action won’t satisfy popular political opinion, if it’s covert nobody knows you did anything. And most of that operational element is already there or unsuited for the tasks you would assign.
So we are likely talking some kind of military action but what will that look like and can we handle the blow back? DHS is the post office now after three years of hiring social workers and retiring border patrol agents.
What type of civil liberties are you willing to give up to compensate for the risks here at home from direct military action abroad?
My sense is this country has the moral clarity to see war crimes and atrocities and express frustration and outrage. It lacks the moral clarity to risk the lives of their family and neighbors here at home to actually do something about it on a sustained basis. Nobody marched in support of the Japanese after Pearl Harbor. Harvard didn’t issue a statement in support of Hitler after he went into Poland. We are seeing that here, even if much of it is being shamed or shouted down. That only silences voices, it won’t silence opinion.
And that’s what you are talking about. Are you willing to risk a mass casualty incident here at home for what you see on television? Because we likely don’t have the infrastructure in place to protect you or your family from random mass violence, particularly if you live in an urban area or frequent large gatherings.
And whatever we do, there will be pressure from multiple sides to end it as quick as possible short of a true solution. Assuming we even have the money to borrow for what people want to do. Don’t even think about what your life would look like after ten years of no Chinese investment in our government bonds and the Saudis wanting to be paid in gold. And there’s no guarantee any of that would continue if we decide to go in there.
This is a horrible mess and we are projecting weakness, confusion, and indecision without solutions. We need better world leadership from the USA. And realistic assessments shared with the public on what a US response will actually entail and what might occur here at home if we go to war.
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If you read their Comments, they condemned terrorism as it relates to the events. They don’t give Israel a free pass for their previous behavior either though, which some might consider reasonable.
They condemn terrorism but not the organizations responsible. Fairly hollow condemnation.
