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Our President shows his toughness.

astonmartin708 said:
I don’t think defensive weapons exist in such donateable numbers that would have given putin pause other than nuclear weapons… but if we had installed nukes it would have been a reverse Cuban Missile crisis which could have ended in catastrophe.
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Stinger missiles certainly would have cause the Russian’s some issues and made controlling the air much more costly. We gave them some javelins but their range is so limited.

The issue dates back to 2014 and encompasses 3 Presidents. In hindsight we probably made the wrong choice regarding training and providing weapon systems. The Ukrainians will at least fight unlike the afghanis we actual did train and provide weapons .
 
astonmartin708 said:
I still can’t wrap my head around Putin’s real motivation, other than maybe the intention to fully reinstate the USSR and act as a Stalin, Krushchev type.

He has a unique strategy of lying with no intent of being taken seriously. Everyone knows that he’s lying and he doesn’t care. For example his repeated lies regarding not changing the Russian constitution. Same goes for his troop build up outside Ukraine. I think it might be his downfall. He’s reliably unreliable. That’s a fault that might be exploited.
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According to a speech Putin recently gave, he is professing a desire to take his borders back to pre WW I Russian empire.

That means Ukraine, Poland 🇵🇱, Finland 🇫🇮, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, & Belarus. Doubt he would stop there, but those are presently his spoken goals.
 
Europe has been decreasing its defense spending for years. Does this finally get their attention ? Maybe start contributing what they’ve pledged to NATO?
 
lawpoke87 said:
Biden is questioning sending arms to help the Ukrainian resistance out of fear of escalating tensions with Putin. Are you f ing kidding?


foreignpolicy.com

Biden Administration Debates Legality of Arming Ukrainian Resistance

Russia could make the case that the United States is a co-combatant.
foreignpolicy.com foreignpolicy.com
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Much like we armed the UK in WWI and WWII, and both times Germany saw us as a co-combatant. In the first case it ended in us being drug into the war and probably would have meant the same thing in the second case if Japan hadn't screwed themselves first.
 
I can't really tell what's up with the GOP. You have people like Tulsi Gabbard (who the DNC certainly no longer claims) and General Flynn, as well as Tucker Carlson and many others defending Putin's security concerns and the fact that we shouldn't have tried to incorporate Ukraine into NATO.



The reason we wanted to incorporate Ukraine was to prevent exactly what we're currently seeing. I do see a lot of Republicans split the other way and saying we should arm Ukraine fully and say FU to Putin. I can't tell which side of the whipsaw the RNC really comes down on.
 
She’s not even a member of Congress just some random candidate in a state where she stands zero chance of winning….and that’s your example?

The Pubs in Congress I’ve heard today have taken a hard line toward Putin. Certainly much harder than the leader of the Dem party whose scared to even send arms to support the Ukrainians out of fear of Putin but has chosen some rather meaningless sanctions instead. That will surely stop further aggression in Europe. We need to lead here. Our current leadership and position is weak. Russia and China are taking notice. This is how you end up in wars

There’s a bipartisan bill making it’s way through Congress to provide $650M in military support for Ukraine resistance. The leader of the Dem party is balking because he’s scared to piss Putin off. Still hard for me to believe after all that’s happened. No clue what Putin has on Biden. Maybe just intimidation.
 
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Dems finally show some toughness toward Russia. Dem Rep Eric Swalwell floating the idea of kicking Russian college students out of the US in retaliation of their country’s invasion of Ukraine. 😱
 
What's really interesting is that Republicans are trying to obsess about Biden rather than come up with actual solutions for the problem at hand, that don't clearly end in the US coming into armed conflict with Russia.
 
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Too bad Biden took so much offense to the Kashogi situation and pissed off the Saudis.

If he hadnt pissed them off, then he could cut off the Russians oil exports and get the Saudis to kick open the taps.
 
astonmartin708 said:
What's really interesting is that Republicans are trying to obsess about Biden rather than come up with actual solutions for the problem at hand, that don't clearly end in the US coming into armed conflict with Russia.
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Kick Russia out of SWIFT would be a good start. 5% of Russia’s GDP immediately gone. Pubs can’t do that or much of anything being the minority party. Let me know when Biden takes this step. We need strong leadership. Strong sanctions. Not more weakness.

We both know this needs to happen now
 
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astonmartin708 said:
What's really interesting is that Republicans are trying to obsess about Biden rather than come up with actual solutions for the problem at hand, that don't clearly end in the US coming into armed conflict with Russia.
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Never let a good crisis go to waste...
 
This is where China stands with Biden and the US. Has an American President ever been so disrespected on the world stage. We would be wise to remember who we are dealing with


 
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lawpoke87 said:
Kick Russia out of SWIFT would be a good start. 5% of Russia’s GDP immediately gone. Pubs can’t do that or much of anything being the minority party. Let me know when Biden takes this step. We need strong leadership. Strong sanctions. Not more weakness.

We both know this needs to happen now
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Again, the swift decision is being driven by Germany who Trump soured our relationship with. It’s possible that we can drive them to making that swift decision, but they are currently a stick in the mud that has to be dealt with.
 
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Trump has zero to do with it. Being dependent on Putin for energy on the other hand has everything to do with it. They were warned and not only ignored said warnings but signed up for more Putin gas with Biden’s blessing. SWIFT and and oil embargo are the only things which might get Putin’s attention. We have thus far failed on both. We are funding Putin’s aggression. Such a bad look for the US and NATO
 
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lawpoke87 said:
Trump has zero to do with it. Being dependent on Putin for energy on the other hand has everything to do with it. They were warned and not only ignored said warnings but signed up for more Putin gas with Biden’s blessing. SWIFT and and oil embargo are the only things which might get Putin’s attention. We have thus far failed on both. We are funding Putin’s aggression. Such a bad look for the US and NATO
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Unfortunately, Putin will have conquered the Ukraine and installed his puppets long before any sanctions take effect... then we will go back to business as usual...

Peace in our time.
 
Yeah….let’s keep funding his war machine. This is the equivalent of Britain and France pouring billions of dollars into Hitler’s government as he rolled across Poland.

 
astonmartin708 said:
Much like we armed the UK in WWI and WWII, and both times Germany saw us as a co-combatant. In the first case it ended in us being drug into the war and probably would have meant the same thing in the second case if Japan hadn't screwed themselves first.
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I would like to remind everyone here about something. WWII officially started for the US with the bombing of Pearl Harbor, that is true. But the Japanese attack on PH was actually a response to the US cutting off their oil supply and essentially hitting them with a trade embargo and economic sanctions after they invaded China. They needed oil for their war effort and thought that they could scare us into trading with them again to avoid a war by attacking Hawaii. They miscalculated. As soon as we declared war instead, they knew they had messed up by opening a new front without having the resources to do so. There are several quotes from Japanese generals after Dec. 7 that all essentially said, "We won this battle, but have already lost this war".

Just a reminder that economic sanctions are actually hurtful. I agree that Putin doesn't give two craps about it, this is an existential fight for him. But I think the current sanctions are an attempt to make life very uncomfortable for the common Russian citizen, and for the oligarchs surrounding Putin. The hope is that they will know who the real enemy is here and turn on him. If they do that, this all ends. It's the best way out, in my opinion, and is what we are likely strategizing for.

The minute the EU cuts off all oil and gas trading with Russia, Russia sees it as an escalation (like Japan did) and this gets worse, not better. We will probably eventually do that if Ukraine falls. But in the meantime, this is not about saving Ukraine, it is about stripping a madman of his power in a way that hopefully doesn't draw all of Europe into a horrific war. The best way to do that is if the Russians themselves take care of the problem.
 
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Clong83a said:
I would like to remind everyone here about something. WWII officially started for the US with the bombing of Pearl Harbor, that is true. But the Japanese attack on PH was actually a response to the US cutting off their oil supply and essentially hitting them with a trade embargo and economic sanctions after they invaded China. They needed oil for their war effort and thought that they could scare us into trading with them again to avoid a war by attacking Hawaii. They miscalculated. As soon as we declared war instead, they knew they had messed up by opening a new front without having the resources to do so. There are several quotes from Japanese generals after Dec. 7 that all essentially said, "We won this battle, but have already lost this war".

Just a reminder that economic sanctions are actually hurtful. I agree that Putin doesn't give two craps about it, this is an existential fight for him. But I think the current sanctions are an attempt to make life very uncomfortable for the common Russian citizen, and for the oligarchs surrounding Putin. The hope is that they will know who the real enemy is here and turn on him. If they do that, this all ends. It's the best way out, in my opinion, and is what we are likely strategizing for.

The minute the EU cuts off all oil and gas trading with Russia, Russia sees it as an escalation (like Japan did) and this gets worse, not better. We will probably eventually do that if Ukraine falls. But in the meantime, this is not about saving Ukraine, it is about stripping a madman of his power in a way that hopefully doesn't draw all of Europe into a horrific war. The best way to do that is if the Russians themselves take care of the problem.
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Well understood.
 
biden can denounce putin all he wants but nothing will happen until we quit buying his oil. Biden needs to reverse his policies that killed our oil independence.
 
Clong83a said:
I would like to remind everyone here about something. WWII officially started for the US with the bombing of Pearl Harbor, that is true. But the Japanese attack on PH was actually a response to the US cutting off their oil supply and essentially hitting them with a trade embargo and economic sanctions after they invaded China. They needed oil for their war effort and thought that they could scare us into trading with them again to avoid a war by attacking Hawaii. They miscalculated. As soon as we declared war instead, they knew they had messed up by opening a new front without having the resources to do so. There are several quotes from Japanese generals after Dec. 7 that all essentially said, "We won this battle, but have already lost this war".

Just a reminder that economic sanctions are actually hurtful. I agree that Putin doesn't give two craps about it, this is an existential fight for him. But I think the current sanctions are an attempt to make life very uncomfortable for the common Russian citizen, and for the oligarchs surrounding Putin. The hope is that they will know who the real enemy is here and turn on him. If they do that, this all ends. It's the best way out, in my opinion, and is what we are likely strategizing for.

The minute the EU cuts off all oil and gas trading with Russia, Russia sees it as an escalation (like Japan did) and this gets worse, not better. We will probably eventually do that if Ukraine falls. But in the meantime, this is not about saving Ukraine, it is about stripping a madman of his power in a way that hopefully doesn't draw all of Europe into a horrific war. The best way to do that is if the Russians themselves take care of the problem.
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I very much agree,, but remember that in both World Wars some very bad things had to play out. Although also remember that the total time was several years from from 1939 to 1945 and that nothing will approach Africa, Italy, Normandy, and Japan. IF there is a war this time it could play out quickly but catastrophically.
 
Idiot Biden cut our oil production. Not just potential from Keystone pipeline but also from federal lands. But beginning to use what we could is to to admit a mistake. You don't get rid of things you need without a replacement. Oh, wait there is one. You can go buy gasoline at hugely larger price and some of it will come from Russia.

He cut our production on day one, true to his promise.
 
TUMe said:
Idiot Biden cut our oil production. Not just potential from Keystone pipeline but also from federal lands. But beginning to use what we could is to to admit a mistake. You don't get rid of things you need without a replacement. Oh, wait there is one. You can go buy gasoline at hugely larger price and some of it will come from Russia.

He cut our production on day one, true to his promise.
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That is not how production works. The president doesn't just come in and turn valves. The Keystone Pipeline was a pipeline for Canadian Exports to other countries, not the US. Biden or his admin didn't cut any production, outside of the leasing issue that we've seen.
 
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astonmartin708 said:
That is not how production works. The president doesn't just come in and turn valves. The Keystone Pipeline was a pipeline for Canadian Exports to other countries, not the US. Biden or his admin didn't cut any production, outside of the leasing issue that we've seen.
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Stop. He has taken multiple steps to increase costs and regulations. He has also added to the uncertainty in the industry by failing to commit to the current regulations going forward. Many of which have been overturned by the courts. Biden needs to take steps to encourage new production. Everyone seems to understand this except out President. Especially with the current push to ban Russian oil imports. The time to act is now. First step would be to reverse his ridiculous decision to halt new leases. Will he?
 
astonmartin708 said:
That is not how production works. The president doesn't just come in and turn valves. The Keystone Pipeline was a pipeline for Canadian Exports to other countries, not the US. Biden or his admin didn't cut any production, outside of the leasing issue that we've seen.
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Really...so when he said he was going to shut down the Keystone pipeline it was just another of his lies?

I don't know if you have ever been to Cushing Oklahoma. It is one of the largest crude oil hubs in the US and probably the World. Every map I have seen shows that pipeline eventually going there. Odd that Canadian crude is going to other countries via SD, and other US location including Cushing. Houston and Port Arthur are still in the US and that would have been the final location for that crude. Heck some of it might wind up in South Louisiana.

You sure have forgot a lot since you left the oil industry.
 
lawpoke87 said:
Stop. He has taken multiple steps to increase costs and regulations. He has also added to the uncertainty in the industry by failing to commit to the current regulations going forward. Many of which have been overturned by the courts. Biden needs to take steps to encourage new production. Everyone seems to understand this except out President. Especially with the current push to ban Russian oil imports. The time to act is now. First step would be to reverse his ridiculous decision to halt new leases. Will he?
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Not until the courts decide to be decent human beings and account for the fact that there is a societal cost to each barrel of oil produced.
 
WATU if the situation requires intelligence and understanding, why is Biden involved.
 
astonmartin708 said:
Not until the courts decide to be decent human beings and account for the fact that there is a societal cost to each barrel of oil produced.
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😂😂😂😂😂. Ignoring the societal cost of $6 a gallon gasoline and the pain it will place on the poor and middle class not to mention those in fixed income. Simply idiotic
 
lawpoke87 said:
😂😂😂😂😂. Ignoring the societal cost of $6 a gallon gasoline and the pain it will place on the poor and middle class not to mention those in fixed income. Simply idiotic
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Temporary cost vs permanent cost. The supply and demand will balance in the oil market. You can’t decrease global warming.

It’s essentially a temporary cost now vs a longer cost later.

BTW, Oklahoma is barely influenced at all by what the federal government does with its leases. Same with Texas and North Dakota. New Mexico and Wyoming have 7-12x more federal leases and federal lands for lease. Back in 2018 (under Trump) there were only 19 approved oil federal drilling permits in Oklahoma. There were 1200 in New Mexico.

Now, despite Oklahoma not having any federal regulations on their leases, the rig count in Oklahoma went from 145 in 2018 to 53 in Feb 2020 and the rig count is only 49 in Oklahoma today. So before you blame all of this on the fed or the XL pipeline, maybe you should look in your own backyard which isnt effected at all by either of those problems and still isn’t producing. It’s not the fed that is the problem for the industry, it’s the fact that they were taking huge losses for years and they’re trying to pay off huge debts using the high prices. They have little incentive to take on more debt before they have balanced their books using the high prices (which they’re not sure will last).
 
Does the oil we buy from Russia or Saudi or whoever have the same “societal” cost tax as the oil we are producing here in the US?
 
lawpoke87 said:
Does the oil we buy from Russia or Saudi or whoever have the same “societal” cost tax as the oil we are producing here in the US?
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It does, which is why I say that the fed in its review of societal cost related to global warming needs to account for the fact that in a Russia sanctions environment, a barrel produced in America wouldn’t necessarily be considered a barrel “in addition to” Russia’s but “in place of” Russia’s
 
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