Our President shows his toughness.

lawpoke87

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Not quite a horse head in a person’s bed but will definitely scare Putin at this pivotal time.
 
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TUMe

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Our former president's costly ineptitude.

Anything to avoid the fact that our current president is totally unfit for the job. After today's announcement of surrender, he asked for questions and on the second question turned and walked out. Probably because he had already said things his handlers wouldn't approve of.

Do you think Putin didn't watch the exit from Afghanistan? Don't worry, China will be next after seeing this. Tiawan will be gone before long.
 
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astonmartin708

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Anything to avoid the fact that our current president is totally unfit for the job. After today's announcement of surrender, he asked for questions and on the second question turned and walked out. Probably because he had already said things his handlers wouldn't approve of.

Do you think Putin didn't watch the exit from Afghanistan? Don't worry, China will be next after seeing this. Tiawan will be gone before long.
That wasn’t any more or less of an embarrassment than the Soviets retreat from the same region was.
 

watu05

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That wasn’t any more or less of an embarrassment than the Soviets retreat from the same region was.
What is embarrassing is ignoring that the US exit from Afghanistan was ALREADY negotiated by Trump who once again agreed to a poor deal that took away all the US leverage to keep the Taliban to its commitments and set a months earlier deadline which would have resulted in the an even more disorganized exit.

China, Russia, NKorea, Syria, etc etc are all bigger problems for the US now than before because of Trump. Clearing up Trump's messes is a lot harder than making them.
 
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lawpoke87

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What is embarrassing is ignoring that the US exit from Afghanistan was ALREADY negotiated by Trump who once again agreed to a poor deal that took away all the US leverage to keep the Taliban to its commitments and set a months earlier deadline which would have resulted in the an even more disorganized exit.
The agreement was fine. Not following the advice of your generals along with faulty intelligence proved a disaster for the Biden Admin. Follow the advice you’re getting from your military leaders and the Taliban are never in Kabul until after we’re gone. You withdrawal your troops last not your civilians.
 
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noble cane

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What is embarrassing is ignoring that the US exit from Afghanistan was ALREADY negotiated by Trump who once again agreed to a poor deal that took away all the US leverage to keep the Taliban to its commitments and set a months earlier deadline which would have resulted in the an even more disorganized exit.

China, Russia, NKorea, Syria, etc etc are all bigger problems for the US now than before because of Trump. Clearing up Trump's messes is a lot harder than making them.
Whoa... WATU admitted that China is a problem....
 

Gmoney4WW

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It's like the media and the Biden administration are quietly narrating a golf ⛳ match, when they discuss Russia's actions every day.

If all they are going to do is economic sanctions of a severe nature, then do it now!!! Don't wait till the guns are blazing.

They(Russia 🇷🇺) are intent on invading, that is obvious. Enact your economic actions now, when they have a 5% chance of changing Russia's actions.

After they fire 🔥 the first shots, the only small hope 🙏 they have of doing any good, is six or eight months down the line after many lives have been lost. What are Great Britain 🇬🇧 and the US waiting on?
 

noble cane

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It's like the media and the Biden administration are quietly narrating a golf ⛳ match, when they discuss Russia's actions every day.

If all they are going to do is economic sanctions of a severe nature, then do it now!!! Don't wait till the guns are blazing.

They(Russia 🇷🇺) are intent on invading, that is obvious. Enact your economic actions now, when they have a 5% chance of changing Russia's actions.

After they fire 🔥 the first shots, the only small hope 🙏 they have of doing any good, is six or eight months down the line after many lives have been lost. What are Great Britain 🇬🇧 and the US waiting on?
I honestly think that there are career politicians and bureaucrats in our govt and the original NATO alliance that dont see the reassembly of the Soviet Union as a big deal. But, they need to act enraged to keep up appearances.
 

Gmoney4WW

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I honestly think that there are career politicians and bureaucrats in our govt and the original NATO alliance that dont see the reassembly of the Soviet Union as a big deal. But, they need to act enraged to keep up appearances.
Across party lines.
 

noble cane

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Across party lines.
I didnt make a distinction..

I think some like the idea of never ending war and some like the romance of marxist/socialism.. some like the idea of a perpetual evil to be confronted and some like the idea of a controlling state with a strong central power..
 

Gmoney4WW

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I didnt make a distinction..

I think some like the idea of never ending war and some like the romance of marxist/socialism.. some like the idea of a perpetual evil to be confronted and some like the idea of a controlling state with a strong central power..
I didn't mean to imply you did.(make a distinction)

You outlined the motivations of different party factions fairly well.

There is also this. Analyzing the situation to the hilt and not acting on it with hard decisions is a failure of leadership. It doesn't matter how good or bad your intelligence is, if you don't act.

Having ambivalent trepidation in the guise of protecting every single party involved is not action. Waiting to act can change from wisdom to hesitant and ambivalent fear very quickly.(and has) And in real terms they are waiting for an eternity. This fear paralyzes any decisiveness.

Not realizing the consequences in admiring individual power 💪 is another motivation. One party likes to spread strong central power to the hive.(as you mentioned in your post 📬) The other party has a faction that desires power to individuals in the Central government.

One is a utopian admiration of communism. The other is more an admiration of how communism has worked in real life.
 
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noble cane

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I didn't mean to imply you did.(make a distinction)

You outlined the motivations of different party factions fairly well.

There is also this. Analyzing the situation to the hilt and not acting on it with hard decisions is a failure of leadership. It doesn't matter how good or bad your intelligence is, if you don't act.

Having ambivalent trepidation in the guise of protecting every single party involved is not action. Waiting to act can change from wisdom to hesitant and ambivalent fear very quickly.(and has) And in real terms they are waiting for an eternity. This fear paralyzes any decisiveness.

Not realizing the consequences in admiring individual power 💪 is another motivation. One party likes to spread strong central power to the hive.(as you mentioned in your post 📬) The other party has a faction that desires power to individuals in the Central government.

One is a utopian admiration of communism. The other is more an admiration of how communism has worked in real life.
When Hitler was making his moves way back when, parts of our federal govt were enamored by fascism and other parts were enamored with Stalins Russia.. very few were in Britain or France's camp... the govt of Germany and the Soviet Union appealed to the big govt types here... if not for Japan turning over the apple cart, i am not sure we would have come to Europes rescue... although many in Roosevelts inner circle took offense at Adolph invading Joes playground.. none were really offended by Uncle joe taking Poland..

I think many of the same attitudes exist among the elites of our country today...
 
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Gmoney4WW

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When Hitler was making his moves way back when, parts of our federal govt were enamored by fascism and other parts were enamored with Stalins Russia.. very few were in Britain or France's camp... the govt of Germany and the Soviet Union appealed to the big govt types here... if not for Japan turning over the apple cart, i am not sure we would have come to Europes rescue... although many in Roosevelts inner circle took offense at Adolph invading Joes playground.. none were really offended by Uncle joe taking Poland..

I think many of the same attitudes exist among the elites of our country today...
The last of the greatest generation has just all but died off, & their children can't remember their first generation lesson. History continually repeating itself is trite but true.

It really pisses me off that the politicians we elect aren't aware the direction they are headed in is so similar, or just ignore this fact.
 

Gmoney4WW

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It is really aggravating that we ignore our historians. There are strong similarities between now and pre World War I & II.
 
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noble cane

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The last of the greatest generation has just all but died off, & their children can't remember their first generation lesson. History continually repeating itself is trite but true.

It really pisses me off that the politicians we elect aren't aware the direction they are headed in is so similar, or just ignore this fact.
My father was born in a dugout hut in western OK in 1931.. he survived the dust bowl and the depression... he was too young to fight in ww2.. made good enough grades to avoid Trumans Korea.. taught school for 35 yrs.. between he and my grandparents, i got an earful of history of both wars... i read a lot of history, but the history they told me still sticks...

We are on that path..
 
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Gmoney4WW

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My father was born in a dugout hut in western OK in 1931.. he survived the dust bowl and the depression... he was too young to fight in ww2.. made good enough grades to avoid Trumans Korea.. taught school for 35 yrs.. between he and my grandparents, i got an earful of history of both wars... i read a lot of history, but the history they told me still sticks...

We are on that path..
Regrettably I agree.
 

astonmartin708

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It's like the media and the Biden administration are quietly narrating a golf ⛳ match, when they discuss Russia's actions every day.

If all they are going to do is economic sanctions of a severe nature, then do it now!!! Don't wait till the guns are blazing.

They(Russia 🇷🇺) are intent on invading, that is obvious. Enact your economic actions now, when they have a 5% chance of changing Russia's actions.

After they fire 🔥 the first shots, the only small hope 🙏 they have of doing any good, is six or eight months down the line after many lives have been lost. What are Great Britain 🇬🇧 and the US waiting on?
If you hit them with the sanctions before they even invade, then what deterrent do they have to invade? It would be a sunk cost for them to invade at that point.
 

Gmoney4WW

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If you hit them with the sanctions before they even invade, then what deterrent do they have to invade? It would be a sunk cost for them to invade at that point.
The sanctions can be lifted, if they don't act, and pull back. That can be an immediate action. They may suffer by the temporary sanctions, but not like they would if the sanctions were long term. The sunk cost is variable.
 

astonmartin708

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The sanctions can be lifted, if they don't act, and pull back. That can be an immediate action. They may suffer by the temporary sanctions, but not like they would if the sanctions were long term. The sunk cost is variable.
It’s a strategy… it’s just a strategy that I don’t have a gut feeling would work. This whole thing reminds me distinctly of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
 

lawpoke87

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It’s a strategy… it’s just a strategy that I don’t have a gut feeling would work. This whole thing reminds me distinctly of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Except for Biden lining military assets along the Ukraine border daring Putin to engage. Willing to bet if all Kennedy had done was threaten sanctions we would have missiles in Cuba.
 
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astonmartin708

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Except for Biden lining military assets along the Ukraine border daring Putin to engage. Willing to bet if all Kennedy had done was threaten sanctions we would have missiles in Cuba.
That’s exactly what was happening in the Cuban Missile crisis. It was also over US nukes in Turkey.
 

Gmoney4WW

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Europe couldn't count on us during Trump's regime, and they sure as heck can't count on us during Biden's regime. I'm getting tired of weak Presidents. Trump and Biden are weak.
 

astonmartin708

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Europe couldn't count on us during Trump's regime, and they sure as heck can't count on us during Biden's regime. I'm getting tired of weak Presidents. Trump and Biden are weak.
I think it’s more that the global society (and economy) is in such a state right now that Putin feels he can get away with it and there’s little we can do about it. Similar to Hitler using the Great Depression. The problem wasn’t that FDR was weak it was that the Great Depression had kicked everyone’s ass for years by that point. Same as Covid.

My hope is that the US hasn’t expended all of our societal potential with global policing and infighting. Hoping we’re still the sleeping giant that we used to be.
 

Gmoney4WW

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This is probably the one thing that could bring all our disparate factions together.
 

astonmartin708

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This is probably the one thing that could bring all our disparate factions together.
I agree… but my question is… does our conventional military potential even matter in a war with Russia?

How soon until the missiles start flying? Or are we both holding to a gentleman’s agreement to not nuke each other while we shoot, stab, gas, and bomb each other? How long will that last? A day? A week? A year? Count me out.

My feeling is that Russia thinks their missile defenses are superior to our offensive options. (Especially after some of their technology releases in the past few years)

This is a war that needs to be won through technological advancement and economic might as it was previously rather than boots on the ground. Say hello to the Second Cold War.
 

noble cane

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Say hello to the Second Cold War.
This war wont be cold.

Once he is done swallowing the Ukraine, whats next? He wont settle for NATO being on his border. He will push into the former eastern block until one by one we let him have all that influence back.

All the promises of the west will be forgotten as the Bear dines on the sheep.
 
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lawpoke87

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This war wont be cold.

Once he is done swallowing the Ukraine, whats next? He wont settle for NATO being on his border. He will push into the former eastern block until one by one we let him have all that influence back.

All the promises of the west will be forgotten as the Bear dines on the sheep.
Many of us made this argument when we did nothing as he annexed Crimea. You have to be blind to not see he’s trying to build his legacy. A legacy of reunited the former Soviet states.
 
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astonmartin708

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Many of us made this argument when we did nothing as he annexed Crimea. You have to be blind to not see he’s trying to build his legacy. A legacy of reunited the former Soviet states.
No one disagrees with that… is a Soviet reformation (and potential for another dissolution) worth risking a nuclear Holocaust?

The real question will come if Putin starts to threaten NATO members themselves. Is he willing to push the envelope with countries that we have standing defense treaties with. (If one is attacked we all are)

I suspect we will start a proxy war in some Russian-sphere-of-influence-nation as retribution (and distraction) before then. (Like we did in Korea, Vietnam, Central America) etc…

I see proxy wars but a Cold War between the majors unless Putin attacks NATO members themselves.
 
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Gmoney4WW

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Don't you think Nuclear Holocaust scares Putin just as much as it scares our executive branch. Putin doesn't know what would happen economically to Russia 🇷🇺 after a nuclear holocaust, even if the loss of life and nuclear after affects don't bother him.
 

astonmartin708

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Don't you think Nuclear Holocaust scares Putin just as much as it scares our executive branch. Putin doesn't know what would happen economically to Russia 🇷🇺 after a nuclear holocaust, even if the loss of life and nuclear after affects don't bother him.
I’m not sure. That’s why I want to see what he does in relation to NATO. That’s the (new since the fall of the Soviets) nuclear line to me. Especially since there are US troops stationed in those countries.
 
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lawpoke87

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No one disagrees with that… is a Soviet reformation (and potential for another dissolution) worth risking a nuclear Holocaust?

The real question will come if Putin starts to threaten NATO members themselves. Is he willing to push the envelope with countries that we have standing defense treaties with. (If one is attacked we all are)

I suspect we will start a proxy war in some Russian-sphere-of-influence-nation as retribution (and distraction) before then. (Like we did in Korea, Vietnam, Central America) etc…

I see proxy wars but a Cold War between the majors unless Putin attacks NATO members themselves.
They certainly disagreed with that statement when it was made after Putin annexed Crimea. Pretty easy to now agree without an admission you were initially wrong when the statement is proven correct. I don’t have the answer which what path is correct. I know the actions of NATO and the US have emboldened Putin to a point where he can invade his neighbors without fear of serious reprisals. I probably wouldn’t have gone to war over Ukraine either. It’s the total capitulation of the west regarding Putin which bothers most of us.
 

noble cane

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No one disagrees with that… is a Soviet reformation (and potential for another dissolution) worth risking a nuclear Holocaust?

The real question will come if Putin starts to threaten NATO members themselves. Is he willing to push the envelope with countries that we have standing defense treaties with. (If one is attacked we all are)

I suspect we will start a proxy war in some Russian-sphere-of-influence-nation as retribution (and distraction) before then. (Like we did in Korea, Vietnam, Central America) etc…

I see proxy wars but a Cold War between the majors unless Putin attacks NATO members themselves.
The Boomers called... they want their foreign policy back...
 

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