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I Support Coach Frank Haith

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GoldenCaneKC

I.T.S. Junior
Jul 3, 2006
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This might seem like strange timing after the Cincy game, but I wanted to inject maybe a little hope into the conversation (or controversy), and publicly state that I am in favor of keeping Coach Haith for at least through the next two seasons after this one.

That by no stretch of the imagination means I don't have my criticisms of him. Late game performance stands out as particularly troubling, but we've still managed to win most close games we've been in this year. Also, the lack of impact recruits we have gotten straight out of high school is worrying. Recruiting is key to college success, and it's been a mixed bag.

That being said, I generally like what I see when I watch our teams. I especially like the defensive scheme that Haith seems to have bought into, especially over the last couple of years. As our guys continue to get experience with the principles underlying it, I think it can be an effective foundation for our game plan. Also, I've been encouraged by the consistent development our our big guys. Etou improved a lot and became a force by his senior year. Same with Jefferies. Same with Igbanu and he's only a junior. With our guards, I see a lot of our deficiencies being talent issues, not necessarily coaching issues (Yes, I understand that talent issues ARE coaching issues.)

My main argument for supporting Haith basically comes down to this...coaching changes create all sorts of disruptions within a program (recruiting, assistents/staff, scheme, buyout $$ and new contract $$). You're just betting and hoping that the good disruptions outweigh the bad. Over the next two years, I'm just not convinced that they would.

So I am in favor of staying the course and reevaluating after the 20/21 season. Let the debate commence.

PS: Can someone fill me in on the details of Haith's current contract? My analysis above was purely from a basketball perspective, nothing to do with when his contract expires or anything like that.

PPS: Go Chiefs!
 
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I think most everyone on here supports Haith for the most part. However dismissing change merely because it is uncomfortable or painful is shortsighted.

I am not advocating change; but, the results achieved so far do not merit the current cash outlay by the university. He is paid an NCAA tournament salary and he has yet to produce even a consistent NIT team.

Games like tonight should be won. Must be won. In order to deflect and mute the deserved criticism.
 
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GoldenCaneKC said:
This might seem like strange timing after the Cincy game, but I wanted to inject maybe a little hope into the conversation (or controversy), and publicly state that I am in favor of keeping Coach Haith for at least through the next two seasons after this one.

That by no stretch of the imagination means I don't have my criticisms of him. Late game performance stands out as particularly troubling, but we've still managed to win most close games we've been in this year. Also, the lack of impact recruits we have gotten straight out of high school is worrying. Recruiting is key to college success, and it's been a mixed bag.

That being said, I generally like what I see when I watch our teams. I especially like the defensive scheme that Haith seems to have bought into, especially over the last couple of years. As our guys continue to get experience with the principles underlying it, I think it can be an effective foundation for our game plan. Also, I've been encouraged by the consistent development our our big guys. Etou improved a lot and became a force by his senior year. Same with Jefferies. Same with Igbanu and he's only a junior. With our guards, I see a lot of our deficiencies being talent issues, not necessarily coaching issues (Yes, I understand that talent issues ARE coaching issues.)

My main argument for supporting Haith basically comes down to this...coaching changes create all sorts of disruptions within a program (recruiting, assistents/staff, scheme, buyout $$ and new contract $$). You're just betting and hoping that the good disruptions outweigh the bad. Over the next two years, I'm just not convinced that they would.

So I am in favor of staying the course and reevaluating after the 20/21 season. Let the debate commence.

PS: Can someone fill me in on the details of Haith's current contract? My analysis above was purely from a basketball perspective, nothing to do with when his contract expires or anything like that.

PPS: Go Chiefs!
Click to expand...


Yes, Go Chiefs!!!. I don't think I can survive another home playoff game loss in the first game, with homefield advantage. I'm trying to stay positive. In my opinion, Andy Reid and Frank Haith could manage the end of games better.

FYI, I grew up in midtown KC, left in the late 80"s.
 
noble cane said:
I think most everyone on here supports Haith for the most part. However dismissing change merely because it is uncomfortable or painful is shortsighted.

I am not advocating change; but, the results achieved so far do not merit the current cash outlay by the university. He is paid an NCAA tournament salary and he has yet to produce even a consistent NIT team.

Games like tonight should be won. Must be won. In order to deflect and mute the deserved criticism.
Click to expand...
I don't think I'm being shortsighted. If the question is... Would we be better off two years from now if we fire Haith after this season? I think the answer is probably no. Its a probabilities question, and I don't think the most likely pros outweigh the most likely cons.

If you want to extend that out to five years, go ahead. Would we be better off five years from now if we fire Haith after this season? I'm not convinced that the answer is yes. I'm open to it, but in my opinion it's too far out in the future to definitively say yes or no. My original post attempted to give a few reasons why I'm encouraged enough to at least want to wait a couple more years and gather more info.

Same goes for asking the question about 10 years out, or 20 years out, or however farsighted you want to be.

I guess I could sum up my concerns with the "fire Haith" bandwagon (not saying you're on it) with an analogy. I don't want us to be the school that's trying to grow an orchard but cuts down the apple trees and replants them every five years because "they're not bearing fruit". Some things take time. According to almanac.com standard apple trees take 5-8 years on average. And just because something will be painful in the short run doesn't necessarily mean it will be beneficial in the long run (see orchard example).

The question we need to answer is if we have an apple tree or a thornbush on our hands. I'm open to hearing the argument for a thornbush.
 
GoldenCane KC... I am not on the fire Haith bandwagon, however do like to look at both sides of a coin. You asked if TU would be off in 2 years, 5 years, etc... if the fired Haith. I don't know the answer to that question. I would like to ask you a similar type question. Based in his performance thus far... if TU keeps Coach Haith will they be better off in 2 years, 5 years, etc...? Since you said you were open to discussion...
 
TU Sepp said:
GoldenCane KC... I am not on the fire Haith bandwagon, however do like to look at both sides of a coin. You asked if TU would be off in 2 years, 5 years, etc... if the fired Haith. I don't know the answer to that question. I would like to ask you a similar type question. Based in his performance thus far... if TU keeps Coach Haith will they be better off in 2 years, 5 years, etc...? Since you said you were open to discussion...
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Mentioned some of these in the previous posts, but here are some of the reasons I'm cautiously optimistic and willing to wait:

1) Defensive scheme - I like what we're doing on defense for the most part. I think we can build an identity around it (similar to Syracuse's zone. (Related note: this years big's avoid foul trouble better than just about any TU team I can remember).
2) Recruiting - HS recruiting *seems* to be on the upswing with Hill and Phipps. Fingers crossed on Thompson.
3) Big man development - See post above.
4) Finishing seasons strong - Flip side of this is slow starts, which we've definitely had our fair share of. But I'd rather have teams that start slow and finish strong than vice versa, if I had to choose.
5) Want to wait and see how the rise of the AAC affects recruiting. I think we will continue to be able to punch in a higher weight class in recruiting battles. Especially if we keep taking down area Big 12 teams.
 
If we keep him, we will win 18-21 games a year, if that is good enough for fans, we should keep him, imo, at what he is being paid, I would think 23-25 wins a year would be a must
 
He must do better keeping local talent home - this is where he has failed miserably — and hs recruiting generally

If he landed only a couple of the studs that got away we’d be in a much different trajectory and have had more success
 
TULSARISING said:
If we keep him, we will win 18-21 games a year, if that is good enough for fans, we should keep him, imo, at what he is being paid, I would think 23-25 wins a year would be a must
Click to expand...

For what he is being paid... wins are not the measuring stick... NCAA appearances, NCAA wins, arena attendance and program profitability... those are the measurements that count.
 
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Original TULSAFAN said:
He must do better keeping local talent home - this is where he has failed miserably — and hs recruiting generally

If he landed only a couple of the studs that got away we’d be in a much different trajectory and have had more success
Click to expand...

Inexcusable that the Boone twins got away after all the efforts spent on them...
 
GoldenCaneKC said:
I don't think I'm being shortsighted. If the question is... Would we be better off two years from now if we fire Haith after this season? I think the answer is probably no. Its a probabilities question, and I don't think the most likely pros outweigh the most likely cons.

If you want to extend that out to five years, go ahead. Would we be better off five years from now if we fire Haith after this season? I'm not convinced that the answer is yes. I'm open to it, but in my opinion it's too far out in the future to definitively say yes or no. My original post attempted to give a few reasons why I'm encouraged enough to at least want to wait a couple more years and gather more info.

Same goes for asking the question about 10 years out, or 20 years out, or however farsighted you want to be.

I guess I could sum up my concerns with the "fire Haith" bandwagon (not saying you're on it) with an analogy. I don't want us to be the school that's trying to grow an orchard but cuts down the apple trees and replants them every five years because "they're not bearing fruit". Some things take time. According to almanac.com standard apple trees take 5-8 years on average. And just because something will be painful in the short run doesn't necessarily mean it will be beneficial in the long run (see orchard example).

The question we need to answer is if we have an apple tree or a thornbush on our hands. I'm open to hearing the argument for a thornbush.
Click to expand...


If only we were talking about an orchard...

But... when a tree quits producing, you cut it down and make furniture of it.
 
Haith is fine. He’s doing the job as well as anyone and I personally can’t think of anyone who could do better with the resources and challenges he must deal with.

We can’t say that about football. spare dollars for coaching moves is going to be spent there.

There’s nothing about this program that a tourney berth, even if a first round loss, won’t cure. Anybody on here who expects more isn’t being realistic right now.

Amongst the people that matter, and that includes some on the tourney committee, TV production folks, and the university presidents in our conference, having an African-American AD and basketball coach is a big deal and buys us more credibility than 5 extra wins.

I don’t like to say it because it appears to diminish what Gragg and Haith have/could accomplish(ed). But that is simple reality. There are people that like the appearance that presents and want to reward it, publicize it, be associated with it, etc. Those are just facts.

As long as Haith is getting the job done (and he is despite no tourney win), not holding us hostage for more money, and kids aren’t going jail, it’s a good thing for TU that he is around. For stability reasons, if not the reasons set forth above.

Doubt it? Ask any USF fan in the know how/why the Bulls got into a P5 conference and UCF didn’t. It was well publicized at the time. The Big East liked the geographic location, the African-American AD, and the diversity of the coaching staffs across all sports. We got a bit of a bump in credibility from hiring Judy, whether we planned it that way or not, whether you personally think she deserved it or not. Same is true here.
 
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I don't blame Haith for the Boones. I suspect the Boones now know they bet on the wrong (cowboy) horse.
 
mcane said:
I don't blame Haith for the Boones. I suspect the Boones now know they bet on the wrong (cowboy) horse.
Click to expand...
Why is that? The recruiting class next year is incredibly good. They probably won't be off but this one year.
 
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We seem to have settled in as the ~100th best team in the country the past 3 years. Whether or not that’s acceptable depends on your expectations.
 
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Two years ago, TU blew a big lead down the stretch and lost a home game to Cincinnati. After that, the team experienced a major meltdown and finished with a losing record.

I believe this year's team is stronger and capable of bouncing back after a similar loss to Cincinnati. I like Frank Haith but my long term support for him will depend on the results over the next two months.
 
'Cane-man said:
Two years ago, TU blew a big lead down the stretch and lost a home game to Cincinnati. After that, the team experienced a major meltdown and finished with a losing record.

I believe this year's team is stronger and capable of bouncing back after a similar loss to Cincinnati. I like Frank Haith but my long term support for him will depend on the results over the next two months.
Click to expand...

Agree with everything here 100%
 
Nice discussion.
Haith's team this year has an undersized 4 playing the 5 and then fills out the other positions with 4 guards with at least 1 that plays the point. Somewhere along the line Haith needs to bring in a legitimate 4 or 5 into his lineup.
 
TU Sepp said:
Nice discussion.
Haith's team this year has an undersized 4 playing the 5 and then fills out the other positions with 4 guards with at least 1 that plays the point. Somewhere along the line Haith needs to bring in a legitimate 4 or 5 into his lineup.
Click to expand...

Some guys that could shoot 3’s on a reliable basis would be good too...

Hopefully they found their stroke yesterday...
 
TULSARISING said:
If we keep him, we will win 18-21 games a year, if that is good enough for fans, we should keep him, imo, at what he is being paid, I would think 23-25 wins a year would be a must
Click to expand...
It would be interesting to know how often an experienced coach in the 6th year or later st a program finds a way to really improve the team performance. My guess is it’s very rare. Some old dogs can learn new tricks but I’m betting it’s very uncommon. So your guess seems very likely to me.
 
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chito_and_leon said:
It would be interesting to know how often an experienced coach in the 6th year or later st a program finds a way to really improve the team performance. My guess is it’s very rare. Some old dogs can learn new tricks but I’m betting it’s very uncommon. So your guess seems very likely to me.
Click to expand...
If he strikes gold with Hill, Phipps, & Thompson, I can see an improvement in the program. Good recruits can become contagious.
 
TU Sepp said:
Nice discussion.
Haith's team this year has an undersized 4 playing the 5 and then fills out the other positions with 4 guards with at least 1 that plays the point. Somewhere along the line Haith needs to bring in a legitimate 4 or 5 into his lineup.
Click to expand...

Will Magnay would be a junior if he had stayed. I saw enough from him as a frosh to know he would been a huge contributor and a rim protector and rebounder. I wish we could get another one just like him.
 
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HuffyCane said:
Haith is fine. He’s doing the job as well as anyone and I personally can’t think of anyone who could do better with the resources and challenges he must deal with.

We can’t say that about football. spare dollars for coaching moves is going to be spent there.

There’s nothing about this program that a tourney berth, even if a first round loss, won’t cure. Anybody on here who expects more isn’t being realistic right now.

Amongst the people that matter, and that includes some on the tourney committee, TV production folks, and the university presidents in our conference, having an African-American AD and basketball coach is a big deal and buys us more credibility than 5 extra wins.

I don’t like to say it because it appears to diminish what Gragg and Haith have/could accomplish(ed). But that is simple reality. There are people that like the appearance that presents and want to reward it, publicize it, be associated with it, etc. Those are just facts.

As long as Haith is getting the job done (and he is despite no tourney win), not holding us hostage for more money, and kids aren’t going jail, it’s a good thing for TU that he is around. For stability reasons, if not the reasons set forth above.

Doubt it? Ask any USF fan in the know how/why the Bulls got into a P5 conference and UCF didn’t. It was well publicized at the time. The Big East liked the geographic location, the African-American AD, and the diversity of the coaching staffs across all sports. We got a bit of a bump in credibility from hiring Judy, whether we planned it that way or not, whether you personally think she deserved it or not. Same is true here.
Click to expand...
I think the schools financial situation and Monty are Frank’s best friends now. He really should be gone but The need is more urgent with Monty.
 
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Seems like we have a good to very good bench/x&o coach. Remain concerned about his recruiting efforts. I am not sure he puts the time needed to overcome the recruiting weakness of the university.
I was also very disappointed in the Boone twins decision and worry our head coach didn't spend enough time courting them. What makes it more concerning is Thompsons relationship to the Boone twins, good friends, and that is why I have mentioned previously how OSU has a strong shot of getting Thompson.
 
chito_and_leon said:
It would be interesting to know how often an experienced coach in the 6th year or later st a program finds a way to really improve the team performance
Click to expand...
I don't know, but Haith has installed a variation of the match-up zone that, when team has energy & displays toughness, can cause major problems for any opponent as we have seen. On the other hand, I suspect that today vs Smoo, we'll make 80% of our ft's, miss 67% of our 3's, win the rebound battle & hold them well under their season average to win. Erratic play just drives me crazy.
 
This might be a classic #payboard question, but with Moore gone, how many 2019 scholies do we have left? Who are our top targets? What other schools are we battling against for those guys?
 
GoldenCaneKC said:
This might be a classic #payboard question, but with Moore gone, how many 2019 scholies do we have left? Who are our top targets? What other schools are we battling against for those guys?
Click to expand...
At the moment we have two schollies open.
 
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