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Amazing.. $6T in new debt spending proposed..

We aren’t cutting entitlements because it would devastate middle class small businesses and to a lesser extent, depending on what state, middle class wage earners administering those programs. Which would devastate state and local income tax collection, again depending on what state, governments already teetering on the edge of insolvency. As well alienate the key demographic in every purple part of every district. People on food stamps are just the middle men for putting tax dollars in the pockets of Reasors. If you want to get re-elected you don’t disrupt that. Wal-mart would go bankrupt with even slight dips in snap benefits.

Republican give lip service to cutting entitlements, because it polls well and can bring in short term cash from select donors. Then they promptly sit down with grocery store lobbyists and the independent convenience store association, tell them they have nothing to worry about and cash those checks too.

Neither party cares about the debt. We print our own money. If we need more we make more. Nobody can get anything done alone and no party can get anything done without a supermajority in both houses and a president who gets to take the credit. Even if you get over that hurdle, you’ve still got power drunk Article III judges willing to enjoin political questions. So governing has become log rolling. You go along to get your project done too. How much you are able to help dictates how much of your agenda gets done in turn.

Stop looking at the world through the eyes of what MSNBC and The Atlantic wants you to believe about “right policies and wrong policies” or “good versus evil” or even “right or left”. The game is much more complex. And more often than not, there is no solution.
Congratulations for complaining when people offer some sort of way forward without offering something constructive as an alternative. By the way. I never watch MSNBC or read the Atlantic. More or less the only broadcast news I look at is CNBC which is mostly financial news and how politics effects markets. I just don’t think the policies proposed will have a similar effect as most people here do, especially if they are inevitably going to be negotiated down so they can pass through the Senate.
 
Most capital gains rates in Europe aren't half. They are closer to 26-33%, especially in the countries with any significant infrastructure or economic potential to realize capital gains. (France is 34% at the top. Austria is 27.5. Finland 34%, Denmark 42%, Germany is 26.38. Netherlands is 31) The reason you invest in capital projects, is partially because you want access to American markets. Not just because you want the benefits of not paying taxes on the fruits of other peoples' labor that you confiscate. Europe still has significant amounts of capital investment despite currently having higher tax rates than we do.

I think the 38% rate that the Biden Administration proposed was likely a high-ball offer for Democrats in Congress to negotiate with. It will likely come down, somewhere in between what it currently is, and what that proposal was. I'm talking about trading, because the stock market is where we see the most significant capital gains, and it's where Billionaires tend to realize their gains... and those are the people that we are actually talking about.

Most of the arguments I've seen against these increasing rates include arguments that we won't be able to realize the benefits of the rates increases because the rich will dodge them... my contention then? Close the loopholes. Prosecute the evaders. Make them pay what they owe to a society that has given them much.

I’m not against tax increases on the wealthy. We need to focus on effective tax rates btw and not the solely political stated tax rates btw. What I don’t understand is the reasoning behind increasing taxes which make capital investment in this country less attractive? Why we would want to put ourselves at such a disadvantage on the world stage? Raise taxes on the wealthy....fine. Make investments in the US economy less attractive than our competitors....🤷‍♂️. I’ve yet to see a good explanation as to why this is good economic policy.
 
I’m not against tax increases on the wealthy. We need to focus on effective tax rates btw and not the solely political stated tax rates btw. What I don’t understand is the reasoning behind increasing taxes which make capital investment in this country less attractive? Why we would want to put ourselves at such a disadvantage on the world stage? Raise taxes on the wealthy....fine. Make investments in the US economy less attractive than our competitors....🤷‍♂️. I’ve yet to see a good explanation as to why this is good economic policy.
Because it pays for necessary improvements that will make our economy more competitive going forward, and after those improvements are paid for we can begin to consider dropping those taxes back. Also consider that to fund green infrastructure improvements you might soon see competitors like Europe increasing their rates as well. (Obviously I’m speaking more about the infrastructure bill than the child care bill). Try thinking about it as a bill to make capital investments in the rusty infrastructure of the US which hasn’t seen major updates in decades or is critically behind other emerged nations. That capital investment should have benefits in terms of jobs created to implement the infrastructure improvements, as well as making the functionality of our economy more viable going forward.

If we start to lose tax revenue due to not having the appropriate infrastructure to adapt to the changes in the global market there will be negative repurcussions similar to what we will see due to tax increases, but we won’t have an improved infrastructure to show for it.
 
We’re going to hinder our economic development and make the US less competitive now because we might be more competitive in the future is the argument you’re going with here ? The former is certain the latter is speculation. As I said above, I’m not against raising taxes on the wealthy to fund infrastructure. I’m against a tax policy which will reduce investment, growth, and worldwide competitiveness. Biden’s proposed capital gains tax rates will be disastrous for our ability to attract investment. As I sit here I can’t believe people support these rates. We don’t live in a vacuum. Can we not understand cause and effect?

...and remember, there’s no guarantee raising cap gains rates to these levels will significantly increase tax revenue. Dumb proposal
 
We’re going to hinder our economic development and make the US less competitive now because we might be more competitive in the future is the argument you’re going with here ? The former is certain the latter is speculation. As I said above, I’m not against raising taxes on the wealthy to fund infrastructure. I’m against a tax policy which will reduce investment, growth, and worldwide competitiveness. Biden’s proposed capital gains tax rates will be disastrous for our ability to attract investment. As I sit here I can’t believe people support these rates. We don’t live in a vacuum. Can we not understand cause and effect?
As I said before, capital gains don’t exist in a vacuum either. Europe doesn’t lose all of its potential investment to us just because they currently have substantially higher tax rates than we do. There is quite a lot to be said for being able to capture market potential and taxes are perpetually secondary to that. If you can make 100M in the USA and be taxed at 43% or you can make $10M in South but be taxed at 15%, you should choose America every time. ROI cares as much (if not more) about the economic potential of the investment as it does about taxes and an America with an improved infrastructure provides more opportunity for overall economic potential and profitability. Falling behind in infrastructure will gradually begin to limit the overall economic potential of projects in comparison to global alternatives as the cost of projects go up stateside and down elsewhere.
 
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Not sure why your comparing investing in the US to South America (assume that’s what “south” is). Apples to oranges. Now US 48% to say Germany 26% has consequences. Significant consequences.
 
Not sure why your comparing investing in the US to South America (assume that’s what “south” is). Apples to oranges. Now US 48% to say Germany 26% has consequences. Significant consequences.
Investing in Germany still have limited market potential. The taxes on the gains you make won’t change that. There will still be vastly more potential for gains in America despite having to pay higher taxes on them. (Especially when spending on infrastructure is increasing economic opportunity for profits in certain sectors)

Economic opportunity via the consumer base and geography will always matter more than tax rate. It’s why you could invest in Estonian companies at sub-20% capital gains rates, but no one does because there isn’t economic opportunity there. It doesn’t matter how low they push the tax rates, the economic opportunity of those areas of the world aren’t viable.

Something else to note: countries like Germany with low Capital gains rates also have comparatively high corporate tax rates which make their companies less profitable and therefore the gains from investment less substantial.
 
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Under Biden’s proposal the US would have the highest combined corporate tax rate in the OECD. Not sure where your info is coming from ?

The tax revenue generated from these rates are vastly overstated (see WSJ) as we don’t operate in a vacuum.

Anyone who believes a total cap gain tax rate of 48% won’t deter people from putting their capital at risk has never put substantial capital at risk .


 
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Under Biden’s proposal the US would have the highest combined corporate tax rate in the OECD. Not sure where your info is coming from ?

The tax revenue generated from these rates are vastly overstated (see WSJ) as we don’t operate in a vacuum.

Anyone who believes a total cap gain tax rate of 48% won’t deter people from putting their capital at risk has never put substantial capital at risk .


How much do that the VAT taxes have on corporate profits in Europe effect that number? Or are they included at all?

It seems to me like that corporate tax rate number is simply comparing nominal corporate rates to nominal corporate rates (which Europe already has higher nominal corporate rates and nominal capital gains rates at the moment) but European countries also collect a significantly higher percentage of their overall tax revenues (as % of GDP) from VAT taxes compared to what the US collects in sales taxes and that effects corporate profits both on corporate expenditures and consumer buying power.
 
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I admit when I’m wrong. Apparently those making under $400k will now not pay any taxes. #lawpokeonteambiden

Lmao. Ole’ foot in the mouth joe.

I’m under no illusion that this Bill was constructed by Biden himself. I’m sure it was outlined by WH staffers, congressional staffers, focus groups, and business interests.
 
what is the purpose of us giving aid, money, to foreign Governments.
Well, in a lot of cases, they promise not to not sell us oil, titanium, silicon and other material we need for war.
 
It's essentially making deals. Deals to buy needed items, to be an ally, to not block political moves and embargos we wish to instate, to have many military bases around the world, to use the cia without much unencumbermewnt, and gain valuable technological/cyber/military information. It's one more cost of the military complex. You scratch my back and we will give you tons of money. Same thing China & Russia do.
 
Biden will introduce his new billion dollar job creation bill today.

government does not create jobs.
industry, commerce and businesses create jobs. all government can do is create regulations that promote business or burden them


if the money is going to people, then it's just more welfare.
if the money is going to the businesses, why?
If a business is successful it will make a profit and doesn't need it,
so where is the money going then?
 
Biden will introduce his new billion dollar job creation bill today.

government does not create jobs.
industry, commerce and businesses create jobs. all government can do is create regulations that promote business or burden them


if the money is going to people, then it's just more welfare.
if the money is going to the businesses, why?
If a business is successful it will make a profit and doesn't need it,
so where is the money going then?
People create jobs. They create jobs by trading items of value to any entity (be it a business or the government) for goods or services. If they give their tax money for the government to fund a bridge being built... that creates jobs. The only differences between the government and a business are a) the fact that the government doesn’t have shareholders wanting a profit on the bridge being built b) The government has the power to regulate how the bridge’s building and use.

A government providing jobs via a jobs plan is the will of the people being expressed that money needs to be given, from the nation at large, to a specific group of people who need the means to sustain themselves so the economy doesn’t break down completely in certain areas.
 
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People create jobs. They create jobs by trading items of value to any entity (be it a business or the government) for goods or services. If they give their tax money for the government to fund a bridge being built... that creates jobs. The only differences between the government and a business are a) the fact that the government doesn’t have shareholders wanting a profit on the bridge being built b) The government has the power to regulate how the bridge’s building and use.

Lol. How about a) we pay for every one of those government jobs b) said jobs generally disappear once we stop paying for them c) as such, said jobs aren’t sustainable without many more jobs created by private industry.

You omitted the most important difference :)
 
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Lol. How about a) we pay for every one of those government jobs b) said jobs generally disappear once we stop paying for them c) as such, said jobs aren’t sustainable without many more jobs created by private industry.

You omitted the most important difference :)
Theoretically you could pay for every job as long each person’s labor was valued equally. Of course it’s not, nor should it be. Many government jobs aren’t meant to be permanent. The government can; however, fund projects that facilitate private industry growth and permanent jobs. (Like building a bridge might allow people to work on the other side of the river) the bridge job is temporary but the other job might not be. Often the private industry is so concerned with profit margins that expanding market share with huge capital projects might not be in their budgets, even though they might be good for the community at large.

For example: It would be rare to see a flower delivery company and a tshirt printer get into the bridge building business together. Even if their businesses might thrive as a result of the bridge being built. It might allow them to increase sales and employ more people... but you’re correct, it’s temporary. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t pursue it at the right cost to the community at large.
 
Theoretically you could pay for every job as long each person’s labor was valued equally. Of course it’s not, nor should it be. Many government jobs aren’t meant to be permanent. The government can; however, fund projects that facilitate private industry growth and permanent jobs. (Like building a bridge might allow people to work on the other side of the river) the bridge job is temporary but the other job might not be. Often the private industry is so concerned with profit margins that expanding market share with huge capital projects might not be in their budgets, even though they might be good for the community at large.

For example: It would be rare to see a flower delivery company and a tshirt printer get into the bridge building business together. Even if their businesses might thrive as a result of the bridge being built.

You’re examples are always to the extreme and have little value as to the real world. So we are building bridges to areas which have no access and private businesses are going to pop up in those areas? Even if your statement were true (I don’t believe it is in 95% of bridge construction), the revenue to fund that project will have to come from private industry. We might want to direct most of our focus (and revenue) on creating those jobs which are long lasting and create a positive tax revenue stream. To do otherwise results in deficits and eventually financial collapse.
 
You’re examples are always to the extreme and have little value as to the real world. So we are building bridges to areas which have no access and private businesses are going to pop up in those areas? Even if your statement were true (I don’t believe it is in 95% of bridge construction), the revenue to fund that project will have to come from private industry. We might want to direct most of our focus (and revenue) on creating those jobs which are long lasting and create a positive tax revenue stream. To do otherwise results in deficits and eventually financial collapse.
I make my examples extreme because everything less extreme works on a similar premise, they just have more layers of complexity placed on top. (Look at A Smith’s example of people who make pins. That is extreme as well)

The bridge example was made in reference to two existing communities on two sides of a river (think Buda and Pest) which, if connected more easily would benefit tremendously by an increased trade base and an increased pace of trade. That example doesn’t just happen with bridges. It happens with roads, railways, naval delivery systems, aero delivery systems, personal transit systems (vehicles), public transit systems, postal systems, energy and water utilities, public services (police, fire, waste) and telecommunications.

Using short term (or even long term) government works to more effectively link communities improves private sector trade and general productivity. Short terms jobs become long term ones.
 
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I make my examples extreme because everything less extreme works on a similar premise, they just have more layers of complexity placed on top. (Look at A Smith’s example of people who make pins. That is extreme as well)

The bridge example was made in reference to two existing communities on two sides of a river (think Buda and Pest) which, if connected more easily would benefit tremendously by an increased trade base and an increased pace of trade. That example doesn’t just happen with bridges. It happens with roads, railways, naval delivery systems, aero delivery systems, personal transit systems (vehicles), public transit systems, postal systems, and telecommunications.

Using short term government works to more effectively link communities improves trade and general productivity. Short terms jobs become long term ones.

Please provide examples of proposed bridges which will open up multitudes of private sector jobs to pay for said bridge. I’m not arguing you don’t need roads, bridges, etc. My argument is those project needs the private sector to pay for the same. It’s not 50 or 100 years ago where communities aren’t connected by roads and bridges. Now those roads and bridges obviously need to be repaired and improved but the long term jobs created are minimal. If you want to argue this work is needed to ensure those private sector jobs then I believe that’s a valid point. However, you’re still going to need private sector job creation and tax policies which create the same to pay for you government spending.
 
Please provide examples of proposed bridges which will open up multitudes of private sector jobs to pay for said bridge. I’m not arguing you don’t need roads, bridges, etc. My argument is those project needs the private sector to pay for the same. It’s not 50 or 100 years ago where communities aren’t connected by roads and bridges. Now those roads and bridges obviously need to be repaired and improved but the long term jobs created are minimal. If you want to argue this work is needed to ensure those private sector jobs then I believe that’s a valid point. However, you’re still going to need private sector job creation and tax policies which create the same to pay for you government spending.
Private sector jobs will exist in any situation where there is a community with significant enough propensity for trade (population base / infrastructure existence) to facilitate it. Infrastructure does not “need” the private sector anymore than the private sector “needs” infrastructure. Without one, the other won’t exist. If one stops flourishing so will the other. Communities have been connected by roads for millennia. The difference between then and now is the quality and technology being used to facilitate trade and the security of those pieces of infrastructure. We need to continue to fund, as a community, any technology and undertaking which can (at a reasonable cost to the community) improve our productivity and facilitate trade. That’s how the private sector benefits.

Right now, as evidenced by pipeline hacks on the east coast, bridge failures in Memphis, utility disasters in Texas, and the potholes in your local neighborhood, the security (continued usefulness) of our infrastructure is failing, and that’s before we even start to talk about funding new infrastructure invention / construction to keep up with the pace of change. There are more than enough jobs that need to be done to make sure our private sector doesn’t begin to lag behind others. Government jobs just spread the cost of those projects out among all of the parties that will benefit from them.

Also, improving productivity of society is not just restricted to improving the health of physical or digital assets. It can include the improvement of the asset health of those doing the work as well. Making sure that a worker isn’t sick, or their house isn’t on fire, or their children are being cared for while they’re away is just as important as making sure the bridge that has a crack in it doesn’t fall down. Those things all effect productivity.
 
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Private sector jobs will exist in any situation where there is a community with significant enough propensity for trade (population base / infrastructure existence) to facilitate it. Infrastructure does not “need” the private sector anymore than the private sector “needs” infrastructure. Without one, the other won’t exist. If one stops flourishing so will the other. Communities have been connected by roads for millennia. The difference between then and now is the quality and technology being used to facilitate trade and the security of those pieces of infrastructure. We need to continue to fund, as a community, any technology and undertaking which can (at a reasonable cost to the community) improve our productivity and facilitate trade. That’s how the private sector benefits.

Right now, as evidenced by pipeline hacks on the east coast, bridge failures in Memphis, utility disasters in Texas, and the potholes in your local neighborhood, the security (continued usefulness) of our infrastructure is failing, and that’s before we even start to talk about funding new infrastructure invention / construction to keep up with the pace of change. There are more than enough jobs that need to be done to make sure our private sector doesn’t begin to lag behind others. Government jobs just spread the cost of those projects out among all of the parties that will benefit from them.

Also, improving productivity of society is not just restricted to improving the health of physical or digital assets. It can include the improvement of the asset health of those doing the work as well. Making sure that a worker isn’t sick, or their house isn’t on fire, or their children are being cared for while they’re away is just as important as making sure the bridge that has a crack in it doesn’t fall down. Those things all effect productivity.

Again....in order to pay for this additional government spending you’re going to need a growing economy (ie....job creation). Any policy which fails to address the same will also fail to fund the additional spending for mostly short term temporary jobs. I’m not against this government spending but you also better have a policy to grow private jobs as well. You know, the permanent jobs which pay for those temp government paid jobs
 
Again....in order to pay for this additional government spending you’re going to need a growing economy (ie....job creation). Any policy which fails to address the same will also fail to fund the additional spending for mostly short term temporary jobs. I’m not against this government spending but you also better have a policy to grow private jobs as well. You know, the permanent jobs which pay for those temp government paid jobs
Improving / creating infrastructure should improve the private sector, as I said, they are inherently linked and one makes possible increases in production in the other. The issue is making sure that the costs of whatever improvements you make are not more than the expected benefits... which is an inherently difficult task. It’s hard to do a cost benefit analysis on network security for example. It’s almost like trying to decide how much we’re going to spend on defense. No one knows the right number, but we can certainly tell when we’re not spending enough. (We see terrorist attacks, international incidents, enemy military buildups etc... ) for infrastructure, right now seems to be one of those times.
 
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