Always nice to have the media on your side

[Gmoney4WW]

This is simply not true.

The only thing I didn't state was that I was talking about currently. You take current cases(in last two weeks) as a percentage and yes it is. Quote any country that has recently done drastically better. There will be a few outliers, but their percentage won't be drastically better than ours. Our current case load is .06% of the population. Germany 8.5%, France 12.5%, etc. We'll see how we do in a couple of weeks when omicron fully hits us. Your blanket statement assumed a lot.

 

[lawpoke87]

Like the first wave I assume we will fall inline with Europe as far as cases. Many countries (Japan, South Korea, etc..) will perform much better. A few may perform worse. Hard to tell due to the level of testing in some of the less developed countries. The fact that we are about to set case records after having two years to prepare shows the ineptitude of our efforts. Measures which have failed yet are still being utilized to stop or slow the spread. Our new plan….punt responsibility to the states at a time when there is zero the states can do to slow the spread. It’s simply too late.

 

[URedskin54]

One of the most disheartening things about it is the original “15 days to slow the spread” and subsequent lockdowns were about blunting the initial wave so that we could expand capacity and be able to deal with future surges in hospitalization, but now in many places we actually have significantly fewer staffed hospital beds than we did two years ago. This is one of the few aspects that can be laid squarely at the feet of state and federal leaders. Covid relief funds could have been pumped into retention bonuses to keep staff, vaccination could have been encouraged without firing, etc. Reducing hospital staff in the middle of a pandemic is nothing but an abysmal failure from everyone involved.

 

[astonmartin708]

Suppose we could go with a real life example.
Government health officials dragging infected people out of their homes and apts to undisclosed locations and jailed in containment camps. It did apparently work btw.

Are you referring to Nazi’s?

 

[lawpoke87]

Are you referring to Nazi’s?

Chinese in Wuhan and likely other areas of the country

 

[astonmartin708]

The only thing I didn't state was that I was talking about currently. You take current cases(in last two weeks) as a percentage and yes it is. Quote any country that has recently done drastically better. There will be a few outliers, but their percentage won't be drastically better than ours. Our current case load is .06% of the population. Germany 8.5%, France 12.5%, etc. We'll see how we do in a couple of weeks when omicron hits us. Your blanket statement assumed a lot.

I can almost guarantee you that we will perform worse than many peer countries in hospitalizations and fatality rate (even if there are fewer overall deaths in this wave than in previous). And it will mostly be due to the proportion of unvaccinated that we have compared to our peers.

 

[PNTrough]

Where does Mike Pence go to get his apology from the press and the Left?

He was initially appointed to spearhead the CoVid response because the career eggheads in the White House told the policy political people that the response would be at the state level and so the White House should start outreach with the states while stockpiling PPE and kickstarting the vaccine.

The left and the media went berserk with religious bigotry and never gave the man a chance to explain that he was a former Governor, experienced with dealing with Governors, and was a Governor during a previous smaller scale pandemic. Instead we got a disjointed response from eggheads like Birx and Fauci who lacked the ability or the authority to master the message much less rhe bureaucracy going on television to tell us to wash our hands and it will all be over in two weeks because I’m a scientist. Then they act surprised that the Twitterverse comes unglued when all of that was wrong and the feds stood by in the name of science while blue states sent police into synagogues. It didn’t take too long for every red state mega pastor to get on Twitter themselves and say “Hey, slow the walk, give me money.” It was over from there as far as national unity.

But you guys are missing the overall. Biden’s numbers are in the tank. They are going down in November and the term will end then. Few if anybody in power now is thinking they will be working 4 years from now. They bet their re-election hopes on massive spending bills to drive up their political capital while making their friends money. Well a lot of that has been thrown out the window of the Senate chamber. So Biden needs a full proof political angle to throw as much walking around money and bacon into the purple states. Nobody will vote against appropriating more money into those districts this close to the election for something like fighting CoVid and funding barely show up jobs like city mask security guard who sits next to the real security guard who makes half as much and doesn’t get a pension . We will just print more money and spend it. This is a massive desperate re-election scam. Somebody with moral authority needs to call it out.

 

[URedskin54]

I can almost guarantee you that we will perform worse than many peer countries in hospitalizations and fatality rate (even if there are fewer overall deaths in this wave than in previous). And it will mostly be due to the proportion of unvaccinated that we have compared to our peers.

There is probably no good way to compare hospitalization rates or fatality rates between countries given the wide variations in criteria even within countries. Maricopa county for example counts all deaths within two months after a positive covid test as a “covid related death” regardless of actual cause of death, while the UK a while back removed all deaths that occurred more than 28 days after a positive test. Hospitalizations will be even more difficult given that in some places(most places in the US) a person going to the hospital due to a heart attack and then testing positive upon entry are counted as a covid hospitalization. Excess death will be a better judge but even that’s tricky due to confounding factors like a worsening opioid epidemic that skyrocketed 2020-2021

 

[astonmartin708]

Where does Mike Pence go to get his apology from the press and the Left?

He was initially appointed to spearhead the CoVid response because the career eggheads in the White House told the policy political people that the response would be at the state level and so the White House should start outreach with the states while stockpiling PPE and kickstarting the vaccine.

The left and the media went berserk with religious bigotry and never gave the man a chance to explain that he was a former Governor, experienced with dealing with Governors, and was a Governor during a previous smaller scale pandemic. Instead we got a disjointed response from eggheads like Birx and Fauci who lacked the ability or the authority to master the message much less rhe bureaucracy going on television to tell us to wash our hands and it will all be over in two weeks because I’m a scientist. Then they act surprised that the Twitterverse comes unglued when all of that was wrong and the feds stood by in the name of science while blue states sent police into synagogues. It didn’t take too long for every red state mega pastor to get on Twitter themselves and say “Hey, slow the walk, give me money.” It was over from there as far as national unity.

But you guys are missing the overall. Biden’s numbers are in the tank. They are going down in November and the term will end then. Few if anybody in power now is thinking they will be working 4 years from now. They bet their re-election hopes on massive spending bills to drive up their political capital while making their friends money. Well a lot of that has been thrown out the window of the Senate chamber. So Biden needs a full proof political angle to throw as much walking around money and bacon into the purple states. Nobody will vote against appropriating more money into those districts this close to the election for something like fighting CoVid and funding barely show up jobs like city mask security guard who sits next to the real security guard who makes half as much and doesn’t get a pension . We will just print more money and spend it. This is a massive desperate re-election scam. Somebody with moral authority needs to call it out.

The fact that the fight against covid will have to occur at the state level because of how are government is structured does not mean it’s the optimal strategy. It’s just what has to be done because we can not unwind the entire structure of the government because of the lack of appetite to do so.

 

[URedskin54]

Biden Chief of Staff, back when ending a plague seemed so easy

 

[lawpoke87]

The fact that the fight against covid will have to occur at the state level because of how are government is structured does not mean it’s the optimal strategy. It’s just what has to be done because we can not unwind the entire structure of the government because of the lack of appetite to do so.

This was not the platform which Biden campaigned on nor his plan during the past year. It’s his plan now because he has lost the fight. Pawn responsibility off on the states. Weak.

 

[PNTrough]

The fact that the fight against covid will have to occur at the state level because of how are government is structured does not mean it’s the optimal strategy. It’s just what has to be done because we can not unwind the entire structure of the government because of the lack of appetite to do so.

Which is why the Trump Administration made a wise choice to select someone with the right background to overcome those challenges and co-ordinate the response. But cheap political points in a time of national crisis was more important.

 

[PNTrough]

This was not the platform which Biden campaigned on nor his plan during the past year. It’s his plan now because he has lost the fight. Pawn responsibility off on the states. Weak.

Very low energy. Please clap.

 

[URedskin54]

Oh no. Heresy

 

[lawpoke87]

 

[lawpoke87]

I imagine Biden’s lawyers who in two weeks are arguing the federal government has the responsibility and authority to issue a federal vaccine mandate are thrilled with Biden’s statement today punting responsibility to the states.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Yeah but the best and most effective part of that generalized plan was using vaccines.

No matter the errors scientists have made in assessing what to do, vaccination is the only process that has had any real & bonafide success.

You can only do so much when you have a cadre of militant & vocal antivaxxers who refuse to vaccinate. & Trump egged on their mania, helping to normalize this behavior.

Trump is even suffering the fools he helped normalize.

 

[astonmartin708]

Which is why the Trump Administration made a wise choice to select someone with the right background to overcome those challenges and co-ordinate the response. But cheap political points in a time of national crisis was more important.

Having states compete for PPE, testing kits, etc... isn't the sign of success in a coordinated federal oversight, nor are the amounts of deaths that we saw per capita.

 

[astonmartin708]

I imagine Biden’s lawyers who in two weeks are arguing the federal government has the responsibility and authority to issue a federal vaccine mandate are thrilled with Biden’s statement today punting responsibility to the states.

Why can both entities not have responsibility and authority in different arenas? Much like a manager might have certain responsibility and authority of the day to day operations of his or her department while a CEO has responsibility and oversight authority for all of his or her managers.

 

[astonmartin708]

Chinese in Wuhan and likely other areas of the country

Aah... well, although I think the Chinese have been dishonest with their statistics from Covid, more strict quarantines are something that have been contentious for centuries but have typically been one of the most effective ways (outside of vaccines) to treat contagions. As I've said, I think that the government should have the power to impose quarantines, but they need to be forced to back up their actions with reasonable evidence, and the measures should only be temporary for those detained. (This is of course in cases of outbreaks that are in early stages and which can still be controlled)

I'm of the opinion that responses to public health crises should grant the same or similar response authority to senior officials as would cases of national defense. That would effectively mean granting the power to detain a person for reasons of public safety (suspend habeus corpus) just as the President can during war-time. Of course, that power must come with certain checks and balances.... namely that Congress should have power to reign in the president and should be the ones declaring war / public health emergencies. I also think that congress should have the right to compel citizens to make sacrifices for their country during cases of dire emergency (i.e. vaccines or the draft)... though those powers need to be carefully imposed.

I'm all for central authority, organization, and leadership during times of crisis as long as that leadership has clear expectations and is held accountable for their actions by assemblies of representatives of the people as well as during elections. That second part is where China fails fundamentally (and where Donald Trump and his cronies tried to sink us as well).

 

[lawpoke87]

Is there a fatality rate for a contagion which should be a threshold which would allow government to take people from their homes and force them into containment camps/prisons?

 

[lawpoke87]

Why can both entities not have responsibility and authority in different arenas? Much like a manager might have certain responsibility and authority of the day to day operations of his or her department while a CEO has responsibility and oversight authority for all of his or her managers.

Stating a position that Covid should be fought on the state level….except in this one arbitrary instance….makes zero sense days before the federal mandate is argued before the Supremes. I understand Biden is running for political cover but delaying on punting responsibility to the states would have been prudent.

 

[PNTrough]

Stating a position that Covid should be fought on the state level….except in this one arbitrary instance….makes zero sense days before the federal mandate is argued before the Supremes. I understand Biden is running for political cover but delaying on punting responsibility to the states would have been prudent.

The only plausible explanation is that he knows it was a loser argument to begin with and he is trying to get out in front of it both politically to avoid looking weak, but also to avoid the potential long term impact to the power of the Presidency itself. One of the big takeaways of this pandemic is that the inherent police power to protect the health safety and welfare of the people that we vest in the executive that is presumably able to act faster in exigent circumstances is very very limited on a practical basis by unelected judges using injunctive relief powers of dubious constitutionality. We saw both Trump and Biden hold back from taking certain actions because they were worried about getting sued when they needed to be making decisions to speed the process along. Rather than suspending rules as the statutes contemplated, Trump re-wrote them to avoid litigation. Biden same. They still got sued because we are nearing a situation where anyone disappointed in a public policy decision or even just people looking to make money by generating dissent and friction can go find a sympathetic federal judge to enjoin a decision pending review by 9 unelected patrician kings. This pandemic is a constitutional wake up.

 

[PNTrough]

Why can both entities not have responsibility and authority in different arenas? Much like a manager might have certain responsibility and authority of the day to day operations of his or her department while a CEO has responsibility and oversight authority for all of his or her managers.

I pray this country must never endure you in any position of public decision making.

 

[URedskin54]

Talk about showing up to the battle after the war is over. The outcome of this wave is already baked in

 

[astonmartin708]

Stating a position that Covid should be fought on the state level….except in this one arbitrary instance….makes zero sense days before the federal mandate is argued before the Supremes. I understand Biden is running for political cover but delaying on punting responsibility to the states would have been prudent.

Stating that he needs cooperation from the states in a meeting with governors makes sense though. He can coordinate all he wants but if states are obstinantly subverting the effort then nothing works.

 

[astonmartin708]

I pray this country must never endure you in any position of public decision making.

Just like I pray that anyone like you with an IQ under 100 never get elected… but it keeps happening… so we better both learn to deal.

 

[lawpoke87]

Stating that he needs cooperation from the states in a meeting with governors makes sense though. He can coordinate all he wants but if states are obstinantly subverting the effort then nothing works.

New York had 50k last reporting day. Why would New York be subverting Biden’s efforts to slow the spread? Makes zero sense. The reality is the time to slow the spread or even prepare needed to be done over the last year. Glad he’s adding and average of 20 doctors/nurses per state. Doesn’t nearly make up for the doctors/nurses we’ve lost over the past year. We have less doctors and nurses today than we did when this started. Increasing vaccine/booster capacity needed to be done months ago. It’s now too late. Two years in and we’ve learned nothing. We are about to break records for new cases nationwide and not just in places like New York.

 

[astonmartin708]

Is there a fatality rate for a contagion which should be a threshold which would allow government to take people from their homes and force them into containment camps/prisons?

Historically, yes there has been… and while that number has varied, the practice has existed and it existed for a reason. The term ‘Quarantine’ itself comes from Venice where 40 (quara)day isolations we’re enforced specifically on incoming merchants. Heck, even non immediately fatal diseases like lepracy involved forced isolation.

New York had 50k last reporting day. Why would New York be subverting Biden’s efforts to slow the spread? Makes zero sense. The reality is the time to slow the spread or even prepare needed to be done over the last year. Glad he’s adding and average of 20 doctors/nurses per state. Doesn’t nearly make up for the doctors/nurses we’ve lost over the past year. Increasing vaccine/booster capacity needed to be done months ago. It’s now too late. Two years in and we’ve learned nothing. We are about to break records for new cases nationwide and not just in places like New York.

The spread itself is not the current problem, especially since as you’ve previously stated, this disease iteration looks less harmful than previous, especially for those who are vaccinated with boosters… what the goal is now is to slow the spread to states with large unvaccinated unvaccinated or unboostered communities so they have time to get as much protection as they can. Ultimately it’s the states that have been fighting vaccine mandates as well as any significant preventative measures (like Florida) that are the real problem.

 

[PNTrough]

There’s no incentive to be prepared. You either pay people to sit on their hands while you wait for it to happen or it doesn’t happen at all. Either way you get accused of waste. Then there’s the fatigue level. Whether it’s doctors, lawyers, preparedness professionals, nurses, you name it. They needed a break. They took it in many cases.

Lol at 20 doctors and nurses per state. The last thing hospitals need is their staff working alongside contract travel pros making two to three times what they make. But Uncle Sam writes the checks and somewhere a Democrat political operative gets a cut through setting up the labor brokerage.

 

[PNTrough]

Stating that he needs cooperation from the states in a meeting with governors makes sense though. He can coordinate all he wants but if states are obstinantly subverting the effort then nothing works.

Mike Pence says hello and would probably call you Mother.

 

[watu05]

Where does Mike Pence go to get his apology from the press and the Left?

He was initially appointed to spearhead the CoVid response because the career eggheads in the White House told the policy political people that the response would be at the state level and so the White House should start outreach with the states while stockpiling PPE and kickstarting the vaccine.

what's the evidence for this? Trump consistently ignored advice from "eggheads" and avoided recognizing the risks of Covid much less taking responsbility for organizing a response. Trump called out the governor of Washington as a 'snake' for taking measures to control the spread asking for government assistance. Pence did to to the state to mend fences, but nothing else changed because Pence had no real power anyway. Eventually the federal response consisted largely of Jerrod contacting a bunch of his MBA buddies to apply for government contracts to sell defective Chinese goods to the states. A royal mess up. There were existing plans for addressing a pandemic developed by Dubya and other tools availble to Trump which he ignored despite pleas from states and 'career eggheads'.

I am very grateful to Pence (and Dan Quayle) but almost entirely for his actions on January 6 when he actually had the power to make his own decision.

 

[lawpoke87]

Historically, yes there has been… and while that number has varied, the practice has existed and it existed for a reason. The term ‘Quarantine’ itself comes from Venice where 40 (quara)day isolations we’re enforced specifically on incoming merchants. Heck, even non immediately fatal diseases like lepracy involved forced isolation.

The spread itself is not the current problem, especially since as you’ve previously stated, this disease iteration looks less harmful than previous, especially for those who are vaccinated with boosters… what the goal is now is to slow the spread to states with large unvaccinated unvaccinated or unboostered communities so they have time to get as much protection as they can. Ultimately it’s the states that have been fighting vaccine mandates as well as any significant preventative measures (like Florida) that are the real problem.

We got fortunate with omicron in that it appears much less lethal than it’s predecessors. However, being lucky shouldn’t absolve those in charge from their absolute failure in limiting the spread of this virus. Boosters, tests, doctors/nurses, etc.. are also a problem. We are no better off today in slowing the spread than we were a year ago. Still relying on many cases on mearsure which are largely ineffective. This is a complete failure two years in. Two years in and record number of cases…Ugg.

 

[URedskin54]

The entire northeast is a covid show right now with some places hitting record hospitalizations and deaths but it’s Florida that’s the problem. What a joke. The Florida obsession is unhealthy

 

[lawpoke87]

To be fair….it’s coming to Florida as well. Likely already there but just now being picked up by testing. Libs are obsessed with DeSantos so Florida is their fall back. Imagine their response if Florida ordered Covid positive patients into nursing homes like New York. Gotta love politics and Covid

 

[PNTrough]

To be fair….it’s coming to Florida as well. Likely already there but just now being picked up by testing. Libs are obsessed with DeSantos so Florida is their fall back. Imagine their response if Florida ordered Covid positive patients into nursing homes like New York. Gotta love politics and Covid

They call them condos down there.

 

[PNTrough]

what's the evidence for this? Trump consistently ignored advice from "eggheads" and avoided recognizing the risks of Covid much less taking responsbility for organizing a response. Trump called out the governor of Washington as a 'snake' for taking measures to control the spread asking for government assistance. Pence did to to the state to mend fences, but nothing else changed because Pence had no real power anyway. Eventually the federal response consisted largely of Jerrod contacting a bunch of his MBA buddies to apply for government contracts to sell defective Chinese goods to the states. A royal mess up. There were existing plans for addressing a pandemic developed by Dubya and other tools availble to Trump which he ignored despite pleas from states and 'career eggheads'.

I am very grateful to Pence (and Dan Quayle) but almost entirely for his actions on January 6 when he actually had the power to make his own decision.

Sounds like your definition of statesman is someone who agrees with you.

Some nice background here from a source you trust.

 

[drboobay]

I will take a meandering, occasionally confused semi-competent leader over a mean-spirited, Machiavellian brainwasher any day of the week. Policy be damned.

 

[URedskin54]

I will take a meandering, occasionally confused semi-competent leader over a mean-spirited, Machiavellian brainwasher any day of the week. Policy be damned.

Sure but don’t fool yourself into believing the kind whispering grandpa act. Joe has been among the biggest aholes in politics for decades. That’s why he said Mitt Romney wanted to put black people back in chains, managed to be horrible to both Anita Hill and Clarance Thomas simultaneously, and why he gave zero effs about Afghans falling off of airplanes.

Here’s what he thought about offering aid to the Cambodians after Vietnam:

“I may be the most immoral son of a gun in this room,” Biden said at a Democratic caucus in early 1975 as he argued against aid to Cambodia, according to the Wilmington Morning News. “I’m getting sick and tired of hearing about morality, our moral obligation.”

And his thoughts about helping the South Vietnamese who fought on our side:

"The US has no obligation to evacuate one, or 100,001, South Vietnamese.”

Judging by the fact that we made zero effort to approve visas for our Afghan allies, one would assume that he didn’t give a sh!t about them either. Instead the clusterf…that he created resulted in a massive humanitarian crisis playing out on live TV and not evacuating people became politically untenable. He doesn’t deserve the rehabilitation of his image that he’s gotten

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Sounds like your definition of statesman is someone who agrees with you.

Isn't that generally everybody's definition?