Star-Spangled Banner confusion
- Thread starter Chris Harmon
- Start date
I agree and I would argue that many in Nazi Germany and Communist Russia did the same for Hitler and Stalin. BUT the problem wasn't as much the people who voted for them out of fear.... It was the people that refused to oppose them when confronted with the truth prior to their consolidation of power. That's the point in making, not only does the decision to overlook a representative's denunciation of minorities adversely affect the minorities but it also adversely effects the people who defended the minorities before the leaders garnered enough power to implement actual racist (or anti-opposition policies)
That's why I say it's not okay to split hairs and say "I support his innocuous positions but not his subjugation ones" because you're really damaging the liberties of your countrymen to a greater degree than you might understand.
I'm interested to know what people define as racist? I hear Trump and other Republican politicians called racist by the left but rarely is there an example of the racism given.
On the other hand, you have the Joe Bidens of the world who say racist things like "If you don't vote for me, you ain't black", and the political left and media just ignore it.
On the other hand, you have the Joe Bidens of the world who say racist things like "If you don't vote for me, you ain't black", and the political left and media just ignore it.
There was the, white supremacists are good people comment.
What he’s said to justify the wall.
And of course the repeated use of China virus or derivative of.
That's off the top of my head.
I'm actually curious...is that an exact quote or are you paraphrasing. If he used that exact quote, that's insane.
Then we can't vote for anyone in this election. You just canceled out both Trump and Biden. I guess that saves me a trip to the polls in November!
Seriously...it's pretty easy to support a party's overall ideals, positions on big issues, etc., without being fond of the person at the top. Both parties have it in their history.
No you weren't. Otherwise there would be somebody else in your list who wasn't voted for freely and without fear of safety and/or life. You just found that as another way to make your point when I brought it up.
I thought Hillary was the better choice despite that I hate Hillary. My party felt otherwise. Now they have seen what Trump did to the party, and how he molded it in his image. More importantly they have seen what he has done with his appointments to the cabinet.
If a Republican votes for him after having seen him in office for four years, and they say they are afraid of who Biden will let influence him, that is an excuse to vote for party no matter who the candidate is. Biden has a little more backbone than giving in to influences like Omar, Ocasio-Cortez, Warren. Voting in fear of what will happen, as opposed to knowledge of what has happened is folly in this situation, IMO.
I listed 5-10 things earlier in this thread that were inherently racist points of support that the Republican party has as an entity.
As for Trump himself let's see...
His company's discriminatory housing practices in the 70's for which he had to settle for millions and millions of dollars.
His support of the death penalty for innocent black men in the Central Park Jogger cases
His historically muddled comments on KKK member David Duke.
His racist (or at least unsubstantiated presumptions) comments about the Native American Casino industry.
He was attributed an extremely racist quote about not wanting to hire black accountants back in the 80's, though he has since denied it.
Multiple contestants and producers on the Apprentice have said he used the N word during filming.
His comments about Mexican immigrants being largely rapists and murderers.
His comments about his Muslim immigration bans.
His comments about the Hispanic judge who was overseeing his Trump University lost lawsuit.
His false comments about Arabs celebrating 9/11 on the streets of NY.
His false and (I'm assuming unreviewed) retweets of false statistics like the claim that 81% of white murder victims were killed by black people.
His comments about the heritage of Jeb Bush + Ted Cruz and their families.
His comments about "
hole" African countries.His presumptions about welfare recipients' ethnicity
His pardon of the racist Joe Arpaio
His tacit support of the Charlotesville incident. ("Good guys on both sides")
His comments on Black Athletes regarding the Kaepernick / Lebron stories.
His racist comments about AOC and Ohmar telling them to "go back to their countries"
His employment of Stephen Miller.
His repeated comments on the "Chinese or Kung Fu" virus.
His retweet of his own supporters yelling white power.
His continued support for Confederate symbols that some communities want to remove.
The list goes on... I will agree that Biden put his foot in his mouth with his "you're not black" comment... but I think we can all understand that his intent was to point out that he was the candidate most friendly to the African American minority. If you want to argue that some of his voting record has adversely effected African Americans go ahead, but I wouldn't try to argue that he's a bigger racist than Trump because you'll lose that argument.
Last edited:
I honestly was. I just didn't want to have to list every single dictator who rose to power through flawed nationalist support. I suppose we can add in Franco, Mussolini, Tito, Chairman Mao, Hussein, Castro, etc... (Though a couple of those guys didn't really deal with domestic policy on ethnic minorities as the others did)
It's not just the person at the top in this case though. In this case maybe both people at the top have some flawed ideals in terms of race (I'd absolutely argue one more than the other), but the parties aren't on anywhere near the same ground in terms of their support of racist or non-racist policies in their platforms / what legislation they've proposed in the past 4 (or even 20) years.Then we can't vote for anyone in this election. You just canceled out both Trump and Biden. I guess that saves me a trip to the polls in November!
Seriously...it's pretty easy to support a party's overall ideals, positions on big issues, etc., without being fond of the person at the top. Both parties have it in their history.
In fact, there's not a single mention of support in the RNC's 2020 platform for any issue pertinent to any American racial minorities. (which is basically just 2016's platform reprinted). The only time the word minority is even mentioned in the platform is regarding Christian minorities being driven out of areas in the Middle East or to the support of the Kurdish minority in Iraq.
We haven't seen the 2020 DNC's platform yet, but 2016's at least gives some mention to the issues of supporting civil equality of genders and minorities, as well as the religious minorities overseas.
Paraphrasing.
He said, “They are good people.” referencing the white supremacist that ran over a protestor a couple of years ago.
I keep forgetting where this post started. I'm not commmenting on it again, unless it gets moved to crossfire.
I'd like to keep politics separate from sports.
That seems like a crazy comment to make about a white supremacist that ran someone over. I did a quick search just to see what would come up, and the video below was on the list. It's from last week I guess...and I never see anything like it in the news. The news is all about Trump being a racist.
I really should've put it there in the first place, but I wanted people to see the deal about not mixing up TU with the Tulsa Athletic.
Yeah, but in today's environment this this can get away in a flash, and IMO it has. I'm just not going to comment on it.
I disagree. One party does just as much bad/good as the other. I've worked for the Federal Government for 20 years. I deal with folks all over on a daily basis, with a heavy emphasis on DC, in both political parties. Nobody will convince me that one party is superior to the other or does things better.
Speaking about the crowds of protestors in Charlottesville his specific remarks were about "very fine people, on both sides." The left took it as an inference about the white supremacists, which I didn't see as that much of a stretch. Many of the protestors on the right were white supremacists.
When you are talking about the rank and file members of either party working within the federal government to do their own thing, I agree wholeheartedly. The vast majority of Democrats and Republicans working in DC as lobbyists, lawyers, congressional aides, random obscure departmental roles, etc, are good people working in good faith to enact policies they believe are in the nation’s best interest. Neither is ‘better’ than the other, and many times differences in policy are both rooted in deeply held beliefs and valid philsophical world views.
But when you are talking about party leadership.... It is hard to argue that Donald Trump is a better leadership figure or presents a better vision to Americans than any random guy on a street corner. He’s a grotesque human being, and is abysmal as an inspiring figurehead, and the rest of the party leadership and public figures are scared to stand up to him and take the limelight away from him by daring to present their own vision or plan. All of that matters a lot to win elections. I think the GOP is going to get absolutely crushed this November. Maybe not in OK, but I wouldn’t count on them winning too many ‘toss-up’ races or battleground areas this cycle. I know I won’t be voting for Trump or very many GOP candidates down ballot. And FYI, the only party I’ve ever been historically affiliated with is the GOP.
Last edited:
That's exactly what I'm talking about, as that is what makes up the majority of the parties.
As far as leaders go, both parties have had some terrible leaders and/or leaders that made huge mistakes or had huge problems. And some of those have been two-term Presidents. So I go back to neither party being superior over the other...both have terrible flaws. One must not only consider the candidate, but also the policies that will be pushed by the party in power. That also goes for state representatives and even local government.
For me personally, this will be the second straight election where I'm not comfortable with either candidate, so I have to study the current, ever-shifting agendas of the parties and the policies each are going to push.
The agendas haven’t shifted all too far from 2016 barring some issues like the racial/criminal justice one we’ve been talking about or the covid related issues. The only things I think have really changed would be our role in geopolitics (Russia, China, NATO) and the recent increased levels of corruption / ineptitude in some (not all) parts of the federal gov.
Last edited:
I listed 5-10 things earlier in this thread that were inherently racist points of support that the Republican party has as an entity.
As for Trump himself let's see...
His company's discriminatory housing practices in the 70's for which he had to settle for millions and millions of dollars.
His support of the death penalty for innocent black men in the Central Park Jogger cases
His historically muddled comments on KKK member David Duke.
His racist (or at least unsubstantiated presumptions) comments about the Native American Casino industry.
He was attributed an extremely racist quote about not wanting to hire black accountants back in the 80's, though he has since denied it.
Multiple contestants and producers on the Apprentice have said he used the N word during filming.
His comments about Mexican immigrants being largely rapists and murderers.
His comments about his Muslim immigration bans.
His comments about the Hispanic judge who was overseeing his Trump University lost lawsuit.
His false comments about Arabs celebrating 9/11 on the streets of NY.
His false and (I'm assuming unreviewed) retweets of false statistics like the claim that 81% of white murder victims were killed by black people.
His comments about the heritage of Jeb Bush + Ted Cruz and their families.
His comments about "
His presumptions about welfare recipients' ethnicity
His pardon of the racist Joe Arpaio
His tacit support of the Charlotesville incident. ("Good guys on both sides")
His comments on Black Athletes regarding the Kaepernick / Lebron stories.
His racist comments about AOC and Ohmar telling them to "go back to their countries"
His employment of Stephen Miller.
His repeated comments on the "Chinese or Kung Fu" virus.
His retweet of his own supporters yelling white power.
His continued support for Confederate symbols that some communities want to remove.
The list goes on... I will agree that Biden put his foot in his mouth with his "you're not black" comment... but I think we can all understand that his intent was to point out that he was the candidate most friendly to the African American minority. If you want to argue that some of his voting record has adversely effected African Americans go ahead, but I wouldn't try to argue that he's a bigger racist than Trump because you'll lose that argument.
I listed 5-10 things earlier in this thread that were inherently racist points of support that the Republican party has as an entity.
As for Trump himself let's see...
His company's discriminatory housing practices in the 70's for which he had to settle for millions and millions of dollars.
His support of the death penalty for innocent black men in the Central Park Jogger cases
His historically muddled comments on KKK member David Duke.
His racist (or at least unsubstantiated presumptions) comments about the Native American Casino industry.
He was attributed an extremely racist quote about not wanting to hire black accountants back in the 80's, though he has since denied it.
Multiple contestants and producers on the Apprentice have said he used the N word during filming.
His comments about Mexican immigrants being largely rapists and murderers.
His comments about his Muslim immigration bans.
His comments about the Hispanic judge who was overseeing his Trump University lost lawsuit.
His false comments about Arabs celebrating 9/11 on the streets of NY.
His false and (I'm assuming unreviewed) retweets of false statistics like the claim that 81% of white murder victims were killed by black people.
His comments about the heritage of Jeb Bush + Ted Cruz and their families.
His comments about "
His presumptions about welfare recipients' ethnicity
His pardon of the racist Joe Arpaio
His tacit support of the Charlotesville incident. ("Good guys on both sides")
His comments on Black Athletes regarding the Kaepernick / Lebron stories.
His racist comments about AOC and Ohmar telling them to "go back to their countries"
His employment of Stephen Miller.
His repeated comments on the "Chinese or Kung Fu" virus.
His retweet of his own supporters yelling white power.
His continued support for Confederate symbols that some communities want to remove.
The list goes on... I will agree that Biden put his foot in his mouth with his "you're not black" comment... but I think we can all understand that his intent was to point out that he was the candidate most friendly to the African American minority. If you want to argue that some of his voting record has adversely effected African Americans go ahead, but I wouldn't try to argue that he's a bigger racist than Trump because you'll lose that argument.
I appreciate you providing your examples. I'm afraid I probably won't agree with you on many of them that they prove Trump is racist, but we all see things differently. The most concerning to me may be the stuff from back in the 70's and 80's but that happened decades ago now.
Without time to address each situation, it seems as though most of the others range from a political difference with liberals that they label as racist because they don't like it, to Trump saying something stupid, to Trump just being straight up honest. That doesn't mean he's a racist.
If asked if Trump hates people based solely on the color of their skin my answer would be no. I'd say the same for Joe Biden even considering the stuff he's said.
I would like to see commom sense prevail in this country instead of this PC/woke/cancel culture going around right now that is very extremist. We do not give anyone room to make mistakes or to even learn from their mistakes. Their reputation must be stoned in the streets and left to die.
I hope we can all come a little closer together and quit getting so extreme in our thinking either on the left or the right. Otherwise we will not survive.
I think Trump hates people based on the contents of the wallet, not the color of their skin. It just so happens that a lot of minorities tend to be poor.
I don't buy the theory that Democrats in charge are good for minorities. They've been in charge PLENTY the past few decades, and if minorities are not happy with what the government has provided to them, the Dems have had as many chances as anyone.
This dude clearly thinks Joe B is a racist:
Joe Biden: https://www.leftvoice.org/joe-biden-is-a-racist-who-loves-police-brutality
excerpts:
Biden’s history of enthusiastic racism stretches back decades. From the moment he entered the U.S. Senate in the early 1970s, he vocally opposed busing to achieve school desegregation.
Perhaps the most egregious example of Biden’s racist use of power is 1994’s Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, the crime bill he wrote and continues to support vocally to this day. The bill is a laundry list of the worst aspects of the mass incarceration state. It led to a boom in the number of police officers and prisons, lengthened prison sentences, and created financial incentives to keep people in jail.
Biden had also co-written the Anti-Drug Abuse Act a few years earlier, during the so-called crack epidemic. It amplified sentencing disparities between crack cocaine users, who were mostly Black, and powder cocaine users, who were mostly white.
On May 22, Biden sat down for an interview with “The Breakfast Club,” a popular radio show. Near the end of the interview, as he was questioned on policy by host Charlamagne the God, Biden said, “If you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.”
This dude clearly thinks Joe B is a racist:
Joe Biden: https://www.leftvoice.org/joe-biden-is-a-racist-who-loves-police-brutality
excerpts:
Biden’s history of enthusiastic racism stretches back decades. From the moment he entered the U.S. Senate in the early 1970s, he vocally opposed busing to achieve school desegregation.
Perhaps the most egregious example of Biden’s racist use of power is 1994’s Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, the crime bill he wrote and continues to support vocally to this day. The bill is a laundry list of the worst aspects of the mass incarceration state. It led to a boom in the number of police officers and prisons, lengthened prison sentences, and created financial incentives to keep people in jail.
Biden had also co-written the Anti-Drug Abuse Act a few years earlier, during the so-called crack epidemic. It amplified sentencing disparities between crack cocaine users, who were mostly Black, and powder cocaine users, who were mostly white.
On May 22, Biden sat down for an interview with “The Breakfast Club,” a popular radio show. Near the end of the interview, as he was questioned on policy by host Charlamagne the God, Biden said, “If you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.”
I'd argue that all day. There are things worse in society than paying a slightly higher amount of taxes for social welfare programs to help support individuals who need it...or public schools getting more $. Silence on Trump's overt racism is supporting it. If you support it, you are. It's pretty simple. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....it's a damn duck. Worst part about it is they even acknowledge it and don't do a damn thing about it. And their "conservative values" are crapped upon by Trump. He doesn't give a damn.
You can argue that all day, but I'll never buy it. Me supporting someone does not mean I align with them on all things or support everything they do or say. Just because someone supported Bill Clinton did not mean they thought adultery in the oval office was okay. It didn't mean they were also a womanizer. I have a few close friends that are gay and lesbian, and I support them in several of the things they do, but that doesn't make me gay by association.
Both parties are simply made up of human beings, which all come with quirks, flaws, baggage, etc.
I respectfully disagree. Having my preferred policy positions represented as accurately as possible is secondary to having people in positions of power that are reasonably intelligent, capable, and act in good faith to try and put the nation's interests first. As long as Trump is in power, we don't have that. When curveballs come along, like COVID, the qualities mentioned are far more important than whether or not a president, senator, governor or what-have-you instinctively favors either raising or lowering my taxes by 2%.
And I'm not saying that Biden is going to be great and solve all of our problems. Far from it. So please don't turn this into a "Biden did this or that and is a total crazy goofball" style of argument. I won't defend him. But frankly speaking, by mere virtue of showing up for and appreciating the nature of the job, he is already "better" than Trump and the enabling GOP leadership. That's how low I think the bar is.
To illustrate: Can you tell me what the federal plan is regarding COVID-19? At all? To mitigate the economic impact? To ensure and maintain access to proper PPE for the coming months? To open up various aspects of industry safely? To open up schools safely? To widely produce and prioritize the distribution of a vaccine should one become available? Beyond just crossing their fingers and hoping that everything kind of works itself out? Because for anything you find relating to any of the above, I guarantee you I can find conflicting contemporaneous guidance coming directly from somewhere else in the administration. Nobody anywhere has a clue what is going on. This is a crisis of leadership.
The rank and file working in Washington for both parties we agree are good. And I bet if either W or Obama were in charge right now, we'd have a coherent plan on COVID by now. It might be a bad plan that ultimately fails, but it would at least be consistent and coherent and the rank-and-file would have strong guidelines for how to implement it. Similar with Mitt, McCain, Jeb, Gore, Kerry, or pretty much anybody else.
Since one party insists on standing by the self-obsessed guy with no plan or guiding principles on pretty much any issue, I think I'll give the Dems a shot at the helm. They are the only alternative. We can both bemoan that fact until the cows come home, but it won't change anything by November. Even if they do a bunch of crazy stuff I don't like and raise my taxes exorbitantly, it's better than this. Even if they fail miserably at addressing any given issue, at least I believe that they will have meaningfully tried. Simply acting professional and trying to give proper gravity to serious societal problems is much more than I can say about Trump or the GOP leadership right now, so it does make Biden and Co. "better" in my estimation.
I don't mean to turn this into a thread on COVID. Substitute almost any crisis you can imagine and you'd get the same results. It is just a convenient McGuffin that has exposes the lack of leadership particularly clearly.
Honestly, I don't care about adultery in the oval office other than the fact that it might be used as blackmail against the president. As long as it's kept quiet I don't care. Clinton wasn't out flaunting his adultery. It was only discovered due to Republican investigations.
As to your LGBT friends , if you voted for people that you know are going to cause them to have fewer civil liberties than you have, then yes it makes you a bigot. If I voted for a candidate who said he wanted to subjugate all of the evangelicals by making it more difficult letting them vote, but I only did it because I wanted the climate change bill he promised, then you could call me a bigot. That's exactly what many Republicans are willing to put up with in regards to African Americans / Hispanics and on exchange for tax cuts.
And you have every right to...that's perfectly fine.
It's not an argument at all, as far as I'm concerned. I personally am not arguing for or advocating for either Trump or Biden. I personally don't think either of them are good options. Neither will slow the massive division that currently exists.
Of course he wasn't flaunting it, because he knew it was wrong. But he had been cheating on Hillary forever, so he thought he'd never get caught...even to the extent he did it inside the oval office. Then he lied to the American people about it and forgot what the definition of sex was...which was quite comical. He definitely earned his Slick Willie nickname.
I appreciate the compliment.
Seriously though, it doesn't make me a bigot in the least. Let's first look at the definition of a bigot: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions. I don't feel that represents me at all, and I'd say my recent conversations in Crossfire are an example of that. I've been fortunate to have wide and varied travels and life experiences. It's allowed me develop close friendships and/or working relationships with people of varied colors, races, sexual orientations, etc. To me, we're all human beings, and while I'm flawed like everyone else and certainly screw up at times, I hope to be understanding, compassionate, loving, patient and tolerant. There is a big difference between tolerance and acceptance. I can love someone and be tolerant of any behaviors they have or choices they make, but I don't always have to accept those things. I can love them without agreeing with everything they do.No matter which party one votes for in November, they will vote for a party that has some polices that go against the beliefs of large groups of people. That vote doesn't make you a bigot.
Last time, I voted. Not for Hillary and not for Trump, but third party. I don't know if we will have that option this time, but right now I would vote third party if available. No they won't win, but neither candidate deserves the job. And, of course Oklahoma will go Republican and California will go Democrat regardless of my vote. Eight years ago the Libtars got 1 percent of the vote. Four years ago they got 5 percent. There is a message there for the Pubs and Crats. If either one had that extra 4 percent, they would be the President.
For all you anti-immigration folks out there, what about this mass migration happening from the football/basketball/Hurricane Alley boards to the CrossFire board? No sports will ruin this board, seriously.
Go back to the pay boards. And if you haven't joined Hurricane Alley, then pay up, and leave us alone. They'll give you the inside scoop, Jerry Seinfeld style.
Go back to the pay boards. And if you haven't joined Hurricane Alley, then pay up, and leave us alone. They'll give you the inside scoop, Jerry Seinfeld style.
Did you just make an anti-wall statement and then encourage everyone to go behind a pay wall?
Yep, the irony of it all.Did you just make an anti-wall statement and then encourage everyone to go behind a pay wall?
Awesome post...I completely agree. Everyone needs to subscribe and enjoy the beauty, peace and bountiful information in Hurricane Alley and our premium content!!! This is a great way to hijack the thread for a second time!
Lol!!!Seriously though, I used to never even open the Crossfire board, and now I've been involved in several threads over the past two months. I definitely want to get back to sports. We are still putting out recruiting articles. Bill has been keeping up with basketball recruiting...lots of recent 2021 activity. And I've got a good article from Larry Lewis coming on the 1984 TU hoops team.
So bring it on in to Hurricane Alley-ville!!! (let me know if anyone gets that reference)
It's just my attempt to shove Rippin back to the Alley. Is it working?Awesome post...I completely agree. Everyone needs to subscribe and enjoy the beauty, peace and bountiful information in Hurricane Alley and our premium content!!! This is a great way to hijack the thread for a second time!
Seriously though, I used to never even open the Crossfire board, and now I've been involved in several threads over the past two months. I definitely want to get back to sports. We are still putting out recruiting articles. Bill has been keeping up with basketball recruiting...lots of recent 2021 activity. And I've got a good article from Larry Lewis coming on the 1984 TU hoops team.
So bring it on in to Hurricane Alley-ville!!! (let me know if anyone gets that reference)
Similar threads
