Donnie's Delay

[Weatherdemon]

I don't know if it is brilliant, in fact, it was obviously the thing to do.

They are no friend of the United States.

So, you’re onboard with blaming a communist country everyone knows we can’t trust despite Trump praising them early in the game?
And, you’re OK with blaming WHO when they were way ahead of the US in making recommendations? Or, are you mad that they called out Trump for his inaction in February?

I’m so confused on reality right now.
Is that hard to see past his lies? Go review his tweets for any chosen time period and see how often he lies and contradicts himself.

Screw the media take, look at his words from his accounts and the recordings of him doing to the same thing in front of a camera.

 

[Weatherdemon]

So, you’re onboard with blaming a communist country everyone knows we can’t trust despite Trump praising them early in the game?
And, you’re OK with blaming WHO when they were way ahead of the US in making recommendations? Or, are you mad that they called out Trump for his inaction in February?

I’m so confused on reality right now.
Is that hard to see past his lies? Go review his tweets for any chosen time period and see how often he lies and contradicts himself.

Screw the media take, look at his words from his accounts and the recordings of him doing to the same thing in front of a camera.

 

[Clong83a]

forecasting this is almost like the weather service forecasting a hurricane path.

pure guess.

You are welcome to put out your own forecasts and try and do a better job.

 

[lawpoke87]

View embedded media

Everyone learned the hard way China and the WHO was involved in one of the biggest coverups the world has seen. Bit us and Europe in the ass in the end

 

[TUMe]

So, you’re onboard with blaming a communist country everyone knows we can’t trust despite Trump praising them early in the game?
And, you’re OK with blaming WHO when they were way ahead of the US in making recommendations? Or, are you mad that they called out Trump for his inaction in February?

I’m so confused on reality right now.
Is that hard to see past his lies? Go review his tweets for any chosen time period and see how often he lies and contradicts himself.

Screw the media take, look at his words from his accounts and the recordings of him doing to the same thing in front of a camera.

1. Early in the game we had not seen any evidence that they China was lying and covering up. We were working on trade deals with them. Surely, you are not contending that he knew there was more to the Wuhan story than we had seen.

2. WHO is a tool of the Chinese. Forget the money we give them, China is the number one trading partner of Ethiopia. Tedros Adhanom, the head of WHO since 2017 and is the first non-physician to head that organization in the 72 years it has existed. He is Ethiopian.

3. Ted Ad was mouthing the China line that the virus could not be transmitted from one person to another.

4. Trump is a liar and does so too much talking for his own good. Biden is senile. He doesn't know where he is or what he is running for. We all have our faults.

5. We are getting through this one day at a time as a country. Both parties are showing the beginings of working together. I have lived too long to believe that will last. I voted 3rd Party last time because I didn't want Trump or Hillary.

6. One last thought, I've been retired 10 years. And I spend a bit of time on Crossfire and one thing I have learned is we are never going to solve anything here. Before sports went away, we were lucky if 10 or 12 people read this My old buddy/enemy WATU told the truth once. It is entertainment. I remember when Crossfire was created. It was done to keep the jabber off the sports boards.

Stay healthy. Better weather please, they closed the Case Center (gym) and I don't like walking in the rain.

 

[Clong83a]

1. Early in the game we had not seen any evidence that they China was lying and covering up. We were working on trade deals with them. Surely, you are not contending that he knew there was more to the Wuhan story than we had seen.

2. WHO is a tool of the Chinese. Forget the money we give them, China is the number one trading partner of Ethiopia. Tedros Adhanom, the head of WHO since 2017 and is the first non-physician to head that organization in the 72 years it has existed. He is Ethiopian.

3. Ted Ad was mouthing the China line that the virus could not be transmitted from one person to another.

4. Trump is a liar and does so too much talking for his own good. Biden is senile. He doesn't know where he is or what he is running for. We all have our faults.

5. We are getting through this one day at a time as a country. Both parties are showing the beginings of working together. I have lived too long to believe that will last. I voted 3rd Party last time because I didn't want Trump or Hillary.

6. One last thought, I've been retired 10 years. And I spend a bit of time on Crossfire and one thing I have learned is we are never going to solve anything here. Before sports went away, we were lucky if 10 or 12 people read this My old buddy/enemy WATU told the truth once. It is entertainment. I remember when Crossfire was created. It was done to keep the jabber off the sports boards.

Stay healthy. Better weather please, they closed the Case Center (gym) and I don't like walking in the rain.

There were intelligence reports that he had access to that were bearish on the outbreak and suggested China was lying. He ignored them at his own peril.

But the bigger issue is the continued disinformation campaign going around that still minimizes the risk and deadliness of this disease.

 

[Weatherdemon]

1. Early in the game we had not seen any evidence that they China was lying and covering up. We were working on trade deals with them. Surely, you are not contending that he knew there was more to the Wuhan story than we had seen.

2. WHO is a tool of the Chinese. Forget the money we give them, China is the number one trading partner of Ethiopia. Tedros Adhanom, the head of WHO since 2017 and is the first non-physician to head that organization in the 72 years it has existed. He is Ethiopian.

3. Ted Ad was mouthing the China line that the virus could not be transmitted from one person to another.

4. Trump is a liar and does so too much talking for his own good. Biden is senile. He doesn't know where he is or what he is running for. We all have our faults.

5. We are getting through this one day at a time as a country. Both parties are showing the beginings of working together. I have lived too long to believe that will last. I voted 3rd Party last time because I didn't want Trump or Hillary.

6. One last thought, I've been retired 10 years. And I spend a bit of time on Crossfire and one thing I have learned is we are never going to solve anything here. Before sports went away, we were lucky if 10 or 12 people read this My old buddy/enemy WATU told the truth once. It is entertainment. I remember when Crossfire was created. It was done to keep the jabber off the sports boards.

Stay healthy. Better weather please, they closed the Case Center (gym) and I don't like walking in the rain.

We knew in December it was likely coming. No doubts in January.

Maybe on WHO but, they were still ahead of the game compared to us.

Damn

Yes

Yes

Yes

And... YES!

 

[lawpoke87]

There were intelligence reports that he had access to that were bearish on the outbreak and suggested China was lying. He ignored them at his own peril.

But the bigger issue is the continued disinformation campaign going around that still minimizes the risk and deadliness of this disease.

I can understand a person with know experience with infectious diseases ignoring such reports. My question is why did our leading and most experienced expert ignore the reports and why did all of Europe’s people take the same approach? The only reasonable conclusion I can come up with is the reports were likely questionable and unverified. Only explanation I have as to why every government in the west would take the same approach. Appears everyone took the word of the WHO who was on the ground in China.

Taking Trump out of the equation and looking at the infection disease experts in Europe and the US makes for a much more intriguing question.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

We knew in December it was likely coming. No doubts in January.

Maybe on WHO but, they were still ahead of the game compared to us.

Damn

Yes

Yes

Yes

And... YES!

I've seen representatives and doctors from WHO avoiding saying anything that China doesn't even remotely want them to say. Not just once but in three or four instances. I'm sure I've only seen this happen a small # of times, and missed it occurring 5 or 6 times more than what has happened publicly. And you know it goes on much more in private. To me the corruption in WHO is as equally irritating right now as listening to Trump's lies. As a never Trumper, that's saying something. I don't agree with pulling funding, but c'est la vie. I think fighting the corruption is better done in peaceful times when there is not a virus going on.

It doesn't irritate me near as much as say, Trump bowing up against our allies in Nato. It's corruption rearing it's ugly head. They'll(the chinese) threaten to pull payoffs and cush jobs in WHO, the first sign of anything they don't like. They seem to have bribed enough people in WHO, that they can do as they will. It's an insidious way of getting away with human abuses.

It's apparently a good way to hide things of importance to the rest of the world in a crisis. Europe is more at risk from these type of practices than anything the Soviet Union pulled in the cold war.(IMO)

 

[Clong83a]

I can understand a person with know experience with infectious diseases ignoring such reports. My question is why did our leading and most experienced expert ignore the reports and why did all of Europe’s people take the same approach? The only reasonable conclusion I can come up with is the reports were likely questionable and unverified. Only explanation I have as to why every government in the west would take the same approach. Appears everyone took the word of the WHO who was on the ground in China.

Taking Trump out of the equation and looking at the infection disease experts in Europe and the US makes for a much more intriguing question.

You raise good points. Not going to press the issue too much because as I’ve said, I think we have other issues to deal with in the here and now.

I will say that I don’t think you can conclude that the reports were speculative or unreliable based on our inaction because DJT is well known to distrust the intelligence community and has a tendency to ignore their briefings in general. I’m not sure the director of the CDC or NIH or even the HHS would have gotten the same reports independent of the White House instructing that to happen. As someone who deals with TS things from time to time, compartmentalization is taken very seriously and info doesn’t usually get shared unless it is very specifically meant to be shared.

Anyway, I agree whether DJT ignoring the reports in early January was justified or not is probably not a good question since he doesn’t trust them generally. We can debate the wisdom of that separately, but it’s a known factor. And I agree that asking what leaders in Europe knew and why they did what they did and what our NIH and CDC leaders knew and why they made the decisions they made are both good questions.

 

[lawpoke87]

I just can’t imagine that Fauci didn’t know more regarding what was going on in China than Trump. Same for the infectious disease experts in Europe as it related to the leaders of those countries. The leaders of large countries deal with lots of decisions and matters everyday. They have people like Fauci who have the experience and training to advise them. The fact that not a single leader in Europe sounded the alarm tells me we were all receiving information we either ignored or deemed reliable from the same source. Maybe the WHO? I have a hard time blaming Trump here when not a single European leader acted on any such information. Did every European country ignore information of a coming pandemic? I can’t fathom such a thing .

Trump did everything Fauci recommended as far as mitigation from late January through early March. Mitigation which mirrored that of our European contemporaries. I would like to know what reliable information was available to the West and why did we all act in a similar manner?

 

[URedskin54]

I’m not a fan of Trump in any way and will not vote for him. If I had a dime for the number of times I’ve called him a dumb@ss on here....But the WHO is absolutely a Chicom propaganda outlet and did precisely the opposite of keep people safe. Idk if defunding is the right choice, but they deserve no defense.

 

[lawpoke87]

I will likely vote for Biden as long as he doesn’t drink too much of the far left koolaid. My problem with the whole “Trump” should have done this or that is he followed the advice of the nations most qualified expert and his actions mirrored those of every European leader. Trump might be incompetent but I certainly don’t believe Fauci or every European leader fits that description.

 

[Weatherdemon]

I will likely vote for Biden as long as he doesn’t drink too much of the far left koolaid. My problem with the whole “Trump” should have done this or that is he followed the advice of the nations most qualified expert and his actions mirrored those of every European leader. Trump might be incompetent but I certainly don’t believe Fauci or every European leader fits that description.

So Fauci recommended that Trump say it would magically disappear, was like a flu, and talk about it as a Democratic hoax?

Those words rang true to a lot of people, including other leaders, and it could be argued that they delayed action even more thus resulting them or others to become sick and/or die.

 

[TUMe]

What Democrat politician was demanding action. (They were too busy with impeachment) In fact, when closing off China began, several played the racist card. I don't trust Trump, but he did the right thing. He didn't listen to Nancy and Chuck.

 

[lawpoke87]

So Fauci recommended that Trump say it would magically disappear, was like a flu, and talk about it as a Democratic hoax?

Those words rang true to a lot of people, including other leaders, and it could be argued that they delayed action even more thus resulting them or others to become sick and/or die.

European leaders haven’t listened to Trump in years. The idea they all of a sudden listened to his words over the advice of their own infectious disease experts simply isn’t plausible. As I said above, Trump took every mitigation step which was recommended to him by our top expert in the field. Trump can be faulted for a number of things. However, I have a hard time here when he took the advice of our experts and actions mirror those every other leader in the West. If he’s at fault here than everyone else is as well. Which is possible.

Speaking of inaction, Sweden is choosing to remain largely open. Their argument is quarantine measures prolongs the virus and basically kicks the can down the road. I don’t necessarily agree but they will be a fascinating comparison.

 

[TUMe]

European leaders haven’t listened to Trump in years. The idea they all of a sudden listened to his words over the advice of their own infectious disease experts simply isn’t plausible. As I said above, Trump took every mitigation step which was recommended to him by our top expert in the field. Trump can be faulted for a number of things. However, I have a hard time here when he took the advice of our experts and actions mirror those every other leader in the West. If he’s at fault here than everyone else is as well. Which is possible.

Speaking of inaction, Sweden is choosing to remain largely open. Their argument is quarantine measures prolongs the virus and basically kicks the can down the road. I don’t necessarily agree but they will be a fascinating comparison.

Sweden is using the "Herd Theory" which says let the weak ones die off and the Herd will be stronger. They are pretty much alone in this. I'm sure they still use medical mediation, but not social mediation.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

What Democrat politician was demanding action. (They were too busy with impeachment) In fact, when closing off China began, several played the racist card. I don't trust Trump, but he did the right thing. He didn't listen to Nancy and Chuck.

May have been racist tendencies involved, but it was the right move for rational reasons that only comprised part of the motive.

 

[lawpoke87]

May have been racist tendencies involved, but it was the right move for rational reasons that only comprised part of the motive.

Fauci had a racist motive behind his recommendation to restrict travel from China?

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Fauci had a racist motive behind his recommendation to restrict travel from China?

No Fauci's recommendation likely had no motive other than a rational medical motivation. But you already know that. I am saying Trump's motives were likely not that pure for going with Fauci's recommendation. Personal gain, racism, revenge, chance, & rational medical reasons were probably all part of Trump taking the recommendation. Trump is a multi layered simpleton. I also am pretty sure you knew the gist of what I was implying about Trump. I said my sarcas-madar was a little off in a post before, but that was just for the joke. I knew what u were going for there as well. Just in case you were wondering.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Fauci had a racist motive behind his recommendation to restrict travel from China?

Shouldn't you at least temporarily change your signature to The Daily Baiter?

 

[lawpoke87]

Shouldn't you at least temporarily change your signature to The Daily Baiter?

Damn quarantine has more bored. Gotta put my efforts into something.

 

[astonmartin708]

On A Business Timetable for Reopening the Economy From CNN: In the first phone call convened between President Donald Trump and some members of his newly formed business council, industry leaders reiterated to the President what public health experts and governors have been telling him for weeks: that there would need to be guarantees of ramped-up coronavirus testing before people return to work, according to one person briefed on the discussions.

This is what I've been saying for weeks. We're not going to be able to safely open the economy until we get per capita testing rates / availability up.

Good news on the testing front. CDC now says saliva can be used From CNN:
The US Food and Drug Administration has authorized a saliva test for "emergency use" for diagnosing Covid-19. Rutgers University, where the test was developed in collaboration with other groups, announced the FDA authorization on Tuesday after formally receiving it over the weekend.

Using saliva to diagnose novel coronavirus infections could expand testing capacities across the United States. So far testing for Covid-19 has usually involved nose or throat swabs.

"It means we no longer have to put health care professionals at risk for infection by performing nasopharyngeal or oropharyngeal collections," Andrew Brooks, chief operating officer and director of technology development at the university's RUCDR Infinite Biologics lab, said in a news release on Tuesday.

Other good news from Bloomberg regarding evolving test availability and antibody detection:
The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services will raise the reimbursement rate for tests run on Abbott’s m2000 machines to $100 from $51 as an incentive to get hospitals and medical centers to hire more technicians and ramp up their use. The m2000 machines, which can process up to 1 million tests per week, have been running at less than 10% of their capacity, Deborah Birx, a top State Department health official, said last week.

The move should help boost testing among nursing home residents, many of whom are covered under the Medicare insurance program for the elderly and are at high risk for serious illness if they develop Covid-19, CMS Administrator Seema Verma said in a statement.

“CMS has made a critical move to ensure adequate reimbursement for advanced technology that can process a large volume of Covid-19 tests rapidly and accurately,” she said. “This is an absolute game-changer for nursing homes, where risk of coronavirus infection is high among our most vulnerable.”

The U.S., currently the epicenter of the pandemic, has faced repeated problems with diagnostic tests as it attempts to identify patients, track the virus across the country and curtail new infections. The latest entry from Abbott’s portfolio spots antibodies produced as a patient recovers, a key step in the development of immunity to ward off repeat infections. Knowing how many people may have protection against the virus is critical as elected officials reopen their economies with limited understanding of how widely the pathogen has already spread.

People can get the antibody tests during a doctor’s visit, once they are up and running in local laboratories. Abbott plans to start shipping them Thursday and will distribute 4 million by the end of April. By June, the Abbott Park, Illinois-based company plans to produce 20 million per month. The company declined to give details on the test’s accuracy, though it noted the technology is based on its widely used platform for HIV and hepatitis.

Abbott’s two tests are rounded out by a rapid diagnostic device that can tell if a person is infected in as little as five minutes.

 

[astonmartin708]

Just think of how much money the US could have saved in January if the guy who controls the CDC's policies had decided that this WASN'T just the FLU and that ramping up testing capabilities early on might save the economy and the government trillions of dollars in shutdowns, bailouts, and tax credits.

From now on, we emulate SK / Germany. TEST.TEST.TEST. It's MUCH cheaper in the long run.

 

[lawpoke87]

Sure would have been nice if the WHO hadn’t told the world that there was no evidence of human to human transmission in late January. Maybe Fauci and the rest of the European experts would have recommended ramping up testing at that point. Suppose the silver lining is we didn’t lag behind Europe in this pandemic like we were in 2009.

 

[astonmartin708]

Sure would have been nice if the WHO hadn’t told the world that there was no evidence of human to human transmission in late January. Maybe Fauci and the rest of the European experts would have recommended ramping up testing at that point. Suppose the silver lining is we didn’t lag behind Europe in this pandemic like we were in 2009.

If only there had been doctors on the ground in China who spoke out on what they were seeing, and risked significant repercussions from their government for doing so... That was back in December.

Also, the WHO had already changed their tune by mid to late January. How would you like to explain the entire month of February when we weren't ramping up testing, or even making it where non CDC labs could test?

If only we had an intelligence agency responsible for gathering intelligence on cases of national security from foreign countries.... Oh... the CIA you say? Oh. OK. nevermind.

 

[lawpoke87]

If only there had been doctors on the ground in China who spoke out on what they were seeing, and risked significant repercussions from their government for doing so... That was back in December.

Also, the WHO had already changed their tune by mid to late January. How would you like to explain the entire month of February when we weren't ramping up testing, or even making it where non CDC labs could test?

If only we had an intelligence agency responsible for gathering intelligence on cases of national security from foreign countries.... Oh... the CIA you say? Oh. OK. nevermind.

I would be glad to explain. Fauci statement from Feb 18th “the hypothetical danger of covid-19 to America is just minuscule compared to the seasonal flu”. That’s our top epidemiologist. Europe’s leading epidemiologist were singing the same tune. Leaders rely on the experts. Which is why the US and Europe acted like they did. For the record, WHO didn’t declare a pandemic until I believe the first of March.

My question....why did we have 20x the number of death from the swine flu in 2009-2010 compare to Europe?

 

[astonmartin708]

Maybe Trump trusting a single WHO tweet is the problem with having a president who relies on twitter and cable tv for his decision making information. We heard a long time back that he doesn’t read briefings.

 

[lawpoke87]

Maybe Trump trusting a single WHO tweet is the problem with having a president who relies on twitter and cable tv for his decision making information. We heard a long time back that he doesn’t read briefings.

If Fauci hadn’t stated that Trump has enacted every mitigation measure which has been recommended I might give that some credence.

 

[astonmartin708]

I would be glad to explain. Fauci statement from Feb 18th “the hypothetical danger of covid-19 to America is just minuscule compared to the seasonal flu”. That’s our top epidemiologist. Europe’s leading epidemiologist were singing the same tune. Leaders rely on the experts. Which is why the US and Europe acted like they did. For the record, WHO didn’t declare a pandemic until I believe the first of March.

They didn’t declare it a global pandemic because they hadn’t yet had major explosions of cases outside China. But, by February we already knew about the asymptomatic transmission of the virus.

The problem with Fauci is that he doesn’t tend to give credence to reported items until they’ve shown up in a published academic article. That’s usually a good sign to have, but in the case where days and weeks mean thousands of lives, it would be nice to have a guy who will do a little bit more preliminary investigation into emerging news / intelligence reports. Not necessarily for the benefit of the public at large but certainly for the benefit of the decision making ability of their elected representatives.

If Kennedy had only listened to his generals during the Cuban missile crisis we would have either bombed or invaded Cuba after the U2 plane was shot down. Instead he took in information from every legitimate source and made the right decision.

 

[lawpoke87]

They didn’t declare it a global pandemic because they hadn’t yet had major explosions of cases outside China. But, by February we already knew about the asymptomatic transmission of the virus.

The problem with Fauci is that he doesn’t tend to give credence to reported items until they’ve shown up in a published academic article. That’s usually a good sign to have, but in the case where days and weeks mean thousands of lives, it would be nice to have a guy who will do a little bit more preliminary investigation into emerging news / intelligence reports. Not necessarily for the benefit of the public at large but certainly for the benefit of the decision making ability of their elected representatives.

Fauci and apparently the rest of the top experts in the field which were advising Europe. Hard to fault the guy when his recommendations were inline with his piers across Europe. At least we are outperforming Europe this go around opposed the failure of 2009. Europe immediately acted in 2009 regarding the swine flu pandemic. We waited until we had over 1000 dead which is why we ended up with our death toll. Imagine if we had taken that path in 2020.

The problems with the WHO is they had people on the ground in Wuhan throughout the outbreak. They knew what we were dealing with and never sounded a clear global alarm.

 

[astonmartin708]

Fauci and apparently the rest of the top experts in the field which were advising Europe. Hard to fault the guy when his recommendations were inline with his piers across Europe. At least we are outperforming Europe this go around opposed the failure of 2009.

The problems with the WHO is they had people on the ground in Wuhan throughout the outbreak. They knew what we were dealing with and never sounded a clear global alarm.

Calling 2009 a failure is a huge stretch that you're only making to rile me up because it was when Obama was in office. The economy was not effected in 09' and the disease was much less deadly in terms of transmissibility. (It didn't have a two week lag period).

I honestly don't care about the WHO. I don't care about them anymore than I care about the WTO, or NATO, or the UN. Yes, they are good entities to have and they promote nations working together, but they're not the ultimate body that makes the decisions for America. We have the CIA, Military Intelligence, the CDC, etc... for a reason. I would absolutely agree that many parties flubbed this, but oddly enough certain news outlets were actually reporting occasionally accurate and occasionally extremely important news stories. (Another problem with having a president that thinks every news agency that doesn't praise him is "Fake News") I know this because at the same time earlier this year (prior to March) my coworkers were saying "Trump says it's just the flu". I was telling them about reports we were hearing out of China about the extraordinarily troubling nature of the virus.

If a nobody engineer from the middle of America with no ties to China is getting more accurate information about the virus than our intelligence and health officials there's a huge problem somewhere. At the very least you'd expect certain people at those agencies to be troubled as they heard the same things. I mean, when China is building hospitals in a day just to deal with the number of patients you would think that our intelligence / health agencies might be directed to keep a close watch on the situation rather than just making decisions based on WHO tweets.

Same thing goes for the fact that they were taking every person's temperature in public and they were dragging people out of their homes if they had a confirmed case. Or the simple fact that the Chinese had to quarantine an entire province. Might that have clued us into the fact that this was a really bad contagion?

My feeling is that I shouldn't have been more informed about the nature of what was happening than apparently Trump or Fauci were. Or, maybe they were in the know and they disregarded it for one reason or another, which I would like an explanation for.

 

[lawpoke87]

Calling 2009 a failure is a huge stretch that you're only making to rile me up because it was when Obama was in office. The economy was not effected in 09' and the disease was much less deadly in terms of transmission. (It didn't have a two week lag period).

I honestly don't care about the WHO. I don't care about them anymore than I care about the WTO, or NATO, or the UN. Yes, they are good entities to have and they promote nations working together, but they're not the ultimate body that makes the decisions for America. We have the CIA, Military Intelligence, the CDC, etc... for a reason. I would absolutely agree that many parties flubbed this, but oddly enough certain news outlets were actually reporting occasionally accurate and occasionally extremely important news stories. I know this because at the same time earlier this year (prior to March) my coworkers were saying "Trump says it's just the flu". I was telling them about reports we were hearing out of China about the extraordinarily troubling nature of the virus.

If a nobody engineer from the middle of America with no ties to China is getting more accurate information about the virus than our intelligence and health officials there's a huge problem somewhere. At the very least you'd expect certain people at those agencies to be troubled as they heard the same things. I mean, when China is building hospitals in a day just to deal with the number of patients you would think that our intelligence / health agencies might be directed to keep a close watch on the situation rather than just making decisions based on WHO tweets.

I don't disagree. The broader question is why not only our leading experts but the experts from across Europe take practically an identical approach. If anything, we were the most proactive with our travel ban. Why were the internet reports disregarded by the West? Why didn't the West have verifiable information on the real scope of the situation? This wasn't just a Fauci or CDC mistake. This was a mistake made by the whole of Europe. The key question is "Why did multiple countries (US, Europe, etc..) act in a similar manner?

2009 is relevant to the extent our response was far behind that of Europe and 12,000 Americans died as a result. I'm obviously bringing it up because of your stated standard. A standard which has changed since 2009.

 

[astonmartin708]

I don't disagree. The broader question is why not only our leading experts but the experts from across Europe take practically an identical approach. If anything, we were the most proactive with our travel ban. Why were the internet reports disregarded by the West? Why didn't the West have verifiable information on the real scope of the situation? This wasn't just a Fauci or CDC mistake. This was a mistake made by the whole of Europe. The key question is "Why did multiple countries (US, Europe, etc..) act in a similar manner?

2009 is relevant to the extent our response was far behind that of Europe and 12,000 Americans died as a result. We are doing much much better.

At the cost of the entire world economy. If the same international shutdown occurred in 2009 I'd expect the US death toll would have been far smaller.

As to Europe. The problem with Europe is that the high population countries with the least development in terms of national security in the EU (Italy / Spain) were the ones who weren't making plans. Some countries (like Germany) did ramp up their testing capabilities per capita prior to major onsets of outbreaks. The ones with good national security agencies that didn't ramp up for it tend to pal around with Trump quite a bit. (I'm looking at you Boris Johnson)

Moreover, the majority of our early cases are said to have traces to Europe, so it's the EU's broad failure that really cost us but we didn't want to close borders with them because of our alliances. I can't speak to their leading epidemiologists' opinions or their leaders decisions. All I can tell are the actions of ours.

 

[lawpoke87]

At the cost of the entire world economy.

Yup. I would love to know why the top epidimiologist in the western world were so dismissive. It wasn't one or two but it appears to be every single one who was advising the West. Have to believe there was a sharing of information which turned out to be wrong. At least in 2009 Europe got it right.

 

[astonmartin708]

Yup. I would love to know why the top epidimiologist in the western world were so dismissive. It wasn't one or two but it appears to be every single one who was advising the West. Have to believe there was a sharing of information which turned out to be wrong. At least in 2009 Europe got it right.

I would also say that Italy was hit harder, earlier than pretty much every other high density country. So, their healthcare / political leaders probably didn't have the luxury of watching the news to make decisions. They were watching what was happening in China with relatively little lag time between things happening in Wuhan and them seeing the same occurrences in Italy. That might explain some of the increased transmission / death count in Europe in general. The only thing they could do was treat it like an emergency right off the bat.

That two week lag time really kicked Europe's butt. We had the advantage that the infected had to fly across an ocean to get to us en mass... not just ride a train or make a drive. We just didn't take advantage of that luxury well enough.

 

[astonmartin708]

At the cost of the entire world economy. If the same international shutdown occurred in 2009 I'd expect the US death toll would have been far smaller.

As to Europe. The problem with Europe is that the high population countries with the least development in terms of national security in the EU (Italy / Spain) were the ones who weren't making plans. Some countries (like Germany) did ramp up their testing capabilities per capita prior to major onsets of outbreaks. The ones with good national security agencies that didn't ramp up for it tend to pal around with Trump quite a bit. (I'm looking at you Boris Johnson)

Moreover, the majority of our early cases are said to have traces to Europe, so it's the EU's broad failure that really cost us but we didn't want to close borders with them because of our alliances. I can't speak to their leading epidemiologists' opinions or their leaders decisions. All I can tell are the actions of ours.

Also, we let go 30 or so people that were responsible for disease monitoring in China during Trump's admin and didn't replace them...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...a-prior-to-coronavirus-outbreak-idUSKBN21C3N5

 

[lawpoke87]

Also, we let go 30 or so people that were responsible for disease monitoring in China during Trump's admin and didn't replace them...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...a-prior-to-coronavirus-outbreak-idUSKBN21C3N5

The hypothetical that US nationals would have been allowed to “help” China with their response if laughable. There is no way on gods green earth that the Chinese were going to allow people into Wuhan who they couldn’t control. When our journalist got close they immediately kicked them out of the country. This was an all out black out of information by the Chinese government.

 

[lawpoke87]

Ha! Because Trump said he would only give anything to governor's that were "appreciative". Newsome received the message and kissed his arse. And still didn't get everything he needed. Which led then to this:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...s-independence-from-trump-s-coronavirus-plans

Here’s an interview Newsome did two days AFTER the story you linked was written.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ax...cnn-71e1aa95-39fa-4b77-8fd0-9fbba45014b8.html


Guess I could link praise from the Governors of Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, etc...

 

[Clong83a]

Here’s an interview Newsome did two days AFTER the story you linked was written.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ax...cnn-71e1aa95-39fa-4b77-8fd0-9fbba45014b8.html


Guess I could link praise from the Governors of Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, etc...

Yeah, I’ll just say I was emotional when I posted that and I didn’t mean to convey I agree with Newsome’s angle or strategy here. I left California long before he was governor, and he’s not my cup of tea.

But in any case, I wouldn’t read too much into anything Newsome says or doesn’t say to Trump. We have a president that loves getting praise so much that it is a weakness. Stroke his ego enough and he will listen to you. Because of that feature/flaw, I generally don’t trust anyone praising him in any way ever actually means it so much as they are trying to get something from him. Take that for whatever it is worth.