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Changes coming because of the virus?

I'm no lawyer and I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but don't most state constitutions as well as the US Constitution give broad power to protect the interests of the nation and its citizens? And it probably isn't only associated with trade and the economy.

Exactly. The Oklahoma Constitution is ridiculously specific and broad. For example, the freedom of speech in Oklahoma is actually broader than the federal version. You can say whatever you want, but someone can sue you for defamation/ slander, too. I’ve had those cases.

During and after reconstruction, state legislatures started trying to regulate more industries and health. One issue was the 14th amendment, which discusses equal protection, due process, and privileges and immunities at the state level. The other amendments (well other than arguably 10) don’t really require anything of the states. The 14th amendment all of a sudden puts restrictions on them.

I have referenced Lochner a time or two recently, which is a case about NY implementing regulations on bakeries to promote health. It was ruled unconstitutional because it violated the “economic due process rights,” like the right to contract. So, for the next 40-50 years, the federal courts would strike down state legislation at such things promoting health.

Great Depression hits about the same time the federal government is expanding powers, like IRS and prohibition (which is a completely insane separate discussion for another day). FDR gets elected and starts trying to push through more and more regulation as part of New Deal. Supreme Court keeps striking it down. So he initiated the process to expand the number of justices on Supreme Court. All of a sudden they change course and start letting these things go forward, often under the rubric of “interstate commerce.” So FDR drops it. This is often referred to as the “switch in time that saved nine.”

The federal government then pushes through more and more legislation over the decades and has increasing involvement in people’s lives. During this post-war era, the modern concepts of “due process” and “equal protection” are developed and used for all sorts of civil rights issues, like school desegregation, reproductive rights (people always talk about Roe v. Wade, but it also included the right to use contraception which is mostly and rightfully taken for granted now), gender discrimination, and later, sexual orientation. (It was also cited by majority in Bush v. Gore, but that’s another story for yet another day).

William Rehnquist gets appointed in 1972 (he was one of two dissenters in Roe) and becomes Chief Justice in 1986. He eventually starts pushing this somewhat whacky federalism theory to challenge federal legislation in areas commonly reserved to states. One famous example is a case called Lopez, where the federal government tried to ban the possession of guns in school zones. Without getting into all the specifics, some of what they did was very appropriate and some of it was very inappropriate. By the end of his life, I would argue they were almost like the Lochner court, using this nutty doctrine to strike down legislation they just didn’t like politically. Whatever you feel about this politically, so much of the debate often revolves around the use of judicial review and there is no debate that the Rehnquist court used it way more than conservative commentators (who always whine about judicial review) care to admit.

I think what you are seeing right now is the intersection of decades of confused doctrines. Most people expect their government to intervene on this in multiple ways. But you have all these leaders who were raised on Reagan type doctrines about small government. Trump has broad powers to act here, but depending on the day, the federal government is the backup or not responsible or the greatest government ever.

At the state level, you have a bunch of people who didn’t go to law school and have very little practical government experience. Even Oklahoma has a century plus of complex laws and regulations. It takes a decade to even understand what you are looking at. (Look at the Corporation Commission sometime.). There isn’t a debate the government has a lot of authority to act here, but you have these “pro business” guys who don’t necessary get it or don’t care. Our Lt. Gov. (former National RNC hack) is promoting state tourism today on Twitter. It’s all quite strange if you understand what all these laws say and permit. You might die from Covid, but by gawd, the government saved your chance to eat sirloin at Outback (before they run out of meat).

Some would call this conservatism, but I generally think it mostly reflects ignorance, especially given Mr. Kouplen’s recent comments. And if you ask these guys about testing, they will say there is plenty. I’m not sure they understand the antibody tests or the apparent issues with it.
 
Exactly. The Oklahoma Constitution is ridiculously specific and broad. For example, the freedom of speech in Oklahoma is actually broader than the federal version. You can say whatever you want, but someone can sue you for defamation/ slander, too. I’ve had those cases.

During and after reconstruction, state legislatures started trying to regulate more industries and health. One issue was the 14th amendment, which discusses equal protection, due process, and privileges and immunities at the state level. The other amendments (well other than arguably 10) don’t really require anything of the states. The 14th amendment all of a sudden puts restrictions on them.

I have referenced Lochner a time or two recently, which is a case about NY implementing regulations on bakeries to promote health. It was ruled unconstitutional because it violated the “economic due process rights,” like the right to contract. So, for the next 40-50 years, the federal courts would strike down state legislation at such things promoting health.

Great Depression hits about the same time the federal government is expanding powers, like IRS and prohibition (which is a completely insane separate discussion for another day). FDR gets elected and starts trying to push through more and more regulation as part of New Deal. Supreme Court keeps striking it down. So he initiated the process to expand the number of justices on Supreme Court. All of a sudden they change course and start letting these things go forward, often under the rubric of “interstate commerce.” So FDR drops it. This is often referred to as the “switch in time that saved nine.”

The federal government then pushes through more and more legislation over the decades and has increasing involvement in people’s lives. During this post-war era, the modern concepts of “due process” and “equal protection” are developed and used for all sorts of civil rights issues, like school desegregation, reproductive rights (people always talk about Roe v. Wade, but it also included the right to use contraception which is mostly and rightfully taken for granted now), gender discrimination, and later, sexual orientation. (It was also cited by majority in Bush v. Gore, but that’s another story for yet another day).

William Rehnquist gets appointed in 1972 (he was one of two dissenters in Roe) and becomes Chief Justice in 1986. He eventually starts pushing this somewhat whacky federalism theory to challenge federal legislation in areas commonly reserved to states. One famous example is a case called Lopez, where the federal government tried to ban the possession of guns in school zones. Without getting into all the specifics, some of what they did was very appropriate and some of it was very inappropriate. By the end of his life, I would argue they were almost like the Lochner court, using this nutty doctrine to strike down legislation they just didn’t like politically. Whatever you feel about this politically, so much of the debate often revolves around the use of judicial review and there is no debate that the Rehnquist court used it way more than conservative commentators (who always whine about judicial review) care to admit.

I think what you are seeing right now is the intersection of decades of confused doctrines. Most people expect their government to intervene on this in multiple ways. But you have all these leaders who were raised on Reagan type doctrines about small government. Trump has broad powers to act here, but depending on the day, the federal government is the backup or not responsible or the greatest government ever.

At the state level, you have a bunch of people who didn’t go to law school and have very little practical government experience. Even Oklahoma has a century plus of complex laws and regulations. It takes a decade to even understand what you are looking at. (Look at the Corporation Commission sometime.). There isn’t a debate the government has a lot of authority to act here, but you have these “pro business” guys who don’t necessary get it or don’t care. Our Lt. Gov. (former National RNC hack) is promoting state tourism today on Twitter. It’s all quite strange if you understand what all these laws say and permit. You might die from Covid, but by gawd, the government saved your chance to eat sirloin at Outback (before they run out of meat).

Some would call this conservatism, but I generally think it mostly reflects ignorance, especially given Mr. Kouplen’s recent comments. And if you ask these guys about testing, they will say there is plenty. I’m not sure they understand the antibody tests or the apparent issues with it.

Interesting read, thanks for that. Much I didn't know in there, which I guess was kind of your point.

Does Oklahoma really have a tourism industry? Other than people stopping for maybe an extra night or two in OKC on their way cross country via I-40? Don't get me wrong, I know there is lots to see and do throughout the state generally speaking. I'm not knocking it. Just, I lived there for a pretty long period of time and I never met anyone from outside the state that was visiting the state just to go see Woolaroc or Bricktown. Maybe I just wasn't talking to the right people.

Contrast that to Santa Fe, where if you wander about the plaza and ask people where they are from, probably 75% of them are from out of state and there just to putz around and enjoy themselves. Same on the ski slopes at Taos or Santa Fe, and even moreso at the ski slopes in Angel Fire/Red River. Actually, go to Red River any time of year at all and I bet 90%+ of the people are from out of state. This year notwithstanding, of course.

Which leads to another issue. The economic impact of this will be certainly be felt by all, but it will be decidedly worse in places that rely heavily on tourism, as I think that industry is dead for the foreseeable future. I think the city of Santa Fe, (pop. 100k or so) is projecting a budget shortfall this year of $46 million, the same amount projected by the much much much bigger city of Phoenix (pop. ~1.5 million). That is based only on what has been happening from midMarch-June. It must be resolved by the end of next month, as the city's FY ends in June. And next year's tourism losses (July-June 2021) is simply going to be devastating. So which muni bond would you buy? And why is Mitch McConnell floating the idea of letting states and cities declare bankruptcy, which would make it much harder to raise money, especially for more rural areas/states?

The tribes have it even worse, but that's a whole other discussion.
 
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Is that kind of like the Star Trek Mirror Universe?
Oh my no!

An anti-Universe is at least vaguely possible. After the big bang, in this Universe there had to be some amount of matter more than anti-matter.

As an example, on a hot day their car might over heat and they put Freeze in the radiator. When people get giddy, they take a Depressant. People with stomach problems don't take an antacid they take Ant Acid.

But the idea of a Mirror Universe has no possibility. There would have to be another TUMe. We could change places. I wouldn't dare try with Anti TUMe. The explosion would probably destroy Anti-Homa. Even if possible, wouldn't we never meet again to switch back. Free Will would be gone because what ATUMe and I did would effect the other one.
 
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Interesting read, thanks for that. Much I didn't know in there, which I guess was kind of your point.

Does Oklahoma really have a tourism industry? Other than people stopping for maybe an extra night or two in OKC on their way cross country via I-40? Don't get me wrong, I know there is lots to see and do throughout the state generally speaking. I'm not knocking it. Just, I lived there for a pretty long period of time and I never met anyone from outside the state that was visiting the state just to go see Woolaroc or Bricktown. Maybe I just wasn't talking to the right people.

Contrast that to Santa Fe, where if you wander about the plaza and ask people where they are from, probably 75% of them are from out of state and there just to putz around and enjoy themselves. Same on the ski slopes at Taos or Santa Fe, and even moreso at the ski slopes in Angel Fire/Red River. Actually, go to Red River any time of year at all and I bet 90%+ of the people are from out of state. This year notwithstanding, of course.

Which leads to another issue. The economic impact of this will be certainly be felt by all, but it will be decidedly worse in places that rely heavily on tourism, as I think that industry is dead for the foreseeable future. I think the city of Santa Fe, (pop. 100k or so) is projecting a budget shortfall this year of $46 million, the same amount projected by the much much much bigger city of Phoenix (pop. ~1.5 million). That is based only on what has been happening from midMarch-June. It must be resolved by the end of next month, as the city's FY ends in June. And next year's tourism losses (July-June 2021) is simply going to be devastating. So which muni bond would you buy? And why is Mitch McConnell floating the idea of letting states and cities declare bankruptcy, which would make it much harder to raise money, especially for more rural areas/states?

The tribes have it even worse, but that's a whole other discussion.

Yes, but it has nothing to do with the state parks Mr. Pinnell is promoting.

There’s a surprising amount of travel associated with casinos, especially in Durant, Miami, and Tulsa. Durant gets a lot of Texas people. Broken Bow has become a thing, which is really interesting. Lots of Texas people. It’s OK, but I mostly don’t understand it. Seemed like a long way to go for chigger bites and craft beer.

Tulsa brings in a lot of people for concerts/ cultural events. Someone is staying in these hotels they keep building. Prior to COVID, the restaurant scene had really taken off and I was getting regular people asking for directions. People also are enamored with Gathering Place. What’s weird to me is I feel like a lot of greatest quirks here are dying off, like Miss Jackson’s and the now inevitable closure of JJ’s. The Cain’s sign is now blocked to south by a high rise for idiots. But we make a good $10 cocktail and we’ll charge you a bunch for some noodles. There are some good things on horizon, like the Living Kitchen thing, but there’s a lot of crap that probably won’t survive this mess.

On my vacation, I’d rather have zero humidity in Santa Fe, Christmas on my huevos at Tia Sophia’s, and dinner reservations at Pasqual’s, followed by days of quiet in the mountains. But if people will pay for this crap, I guess it’s good for someone.

The McConnel bankruptcy thing is all about bankrupting out of state pension and health care plans. It would be good on some places, but very crappy in others.
 
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The Broken Bow area is quite nice if you can ignore Oklahoma's kkk population that lives in the area. I've gotten a cabin out there a couple times
 
Yes, but it has nothing to do with the state parks Mr. Pinnell is promoting.

There’s a surprising amount of travel associated with casinos, especially in Durant, Miami, and Tulsa. Durant gets a lot of Texas people. Broken Bow has become a thing, which is really interesting. Lots of Texas people. It’s OK, but I mostly don’t understand it. Seemed like a long way to go for chigger bites and craft beer.

Tulsa brings in a lot of people for concerts/ cultural events. Someone is staying in these hotels they keep building. Prior to COVID, the restaurant scene had really taken off and I was getting regular people asking for directions. People also are enamored with Gathering Place. What’s weird to me is I feel like a lot of greatest quirks here are dying off, like Miss Jackson’s and the now inevitable closure of JJ’s. The Cain’s sign is now blocked to south by a high rise for idiots. But we make a good $10 cocktail and we’ll charge you a bunch for some noodles. There are some good things on horizon, like the Living Kitchen thing, but there’s a lot of crap that probably won’t survive this mess.

On my vacation, I’d rather have zero humidity in Santa Fe, Christmas on my huevos at Tia Sophia’s, and dinner reservations at Pasqual’s, followed by days of quiet in the mountains. But if people will pay for this crap, I guess it’s good for someone.

The McConnel bankruptcy thing is all about bankrupting out of state pension and health care plans. It would be good on some places, but very crappy in others.
Sounds like it has changed quite a bit. I last lived there in 2009, when almost none of that stuff had happened. I've been back maybe 3-4 times since then. And I doubt I will go back again anytime soon now that I no longer have any family there. My folks finally decided to just move to Santa Fe a few months ago.

Maybe not this summer for obvious reasons, but I assume they (and I) would love to meet up and hike the Hermit with you and your dad next time the opportunity presents itself. I actually did it in the winter a few years ago, which was fun. Icy in a few spots (mostly those sheltered upper switchbacks), but surprisingly manageable.
 
The Broken Bow area is quite nice if you can ignore Oklahoma's kkk population that lives in the area. I've gotten a cabin out there a couple times
I'm still having trouble wrapping my brain around Broken Bow being a thing. But I will take you and Gold's word for it.
 
I'm still having trouble wrapping my brain around Broken Bow being a thing. But I will take you and Gold's word for it.

It had potential, but seemed like a lot of work to go sit on a boat in a lake.
 
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Sounds like it has changed quite a bit. I last lived there in 2009, when almost none of that stuff had happened. I've been back maybe 3-4 times since then. And I doubt I will go back again anytime soon now that I no longer have any family there. My folks finally decided to just move to Santa Fe a few months ago.

Maybe not this summer for obvious reasons, but I assume they (and I) would love to meet up and hike the Hermit with you and your dad next time the opportunity presents itself. I actually did it in the winter a few years ago, which was fun. Icy in a few spots (mostly those sheltered upper switchbacks), but surprisingly manageable.


Good idea. Mr. Hart and another Tulsa family bought the cabin next to our’s. I think my dad will be up there a lot this summer. My brother is there now. I haven’t had time to do the Hermit in years.
 
I'm still having trouble wrapping my brain around Broken Bow being a thing. But I will take you and Gold's word for it.

Google image search Beaver's Bend State Park. It really seems like it should be in another state. YMMV though. Depends on how much you enjoy the outdoors.
 
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As soon as the snow melts... this is my first destination....

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I also wanted to make a trip to the PNW this summer but we'll see how everything shakes out.
 
As soon as the snow melts... this is my first destination....

3KoShZatYzSZwD2GWrbRSjJUBrHAXH8mPtNPGbHKOaY.jpg

I also wanted to make a trip to the PNW this summer but we'll see how everything shakes out.

Ever been to Bend, Oregon? I was there last summer for work and stayed a few extra days. That area is gorgeous and there’s lots of random local beer places if that’s your kind of thing. This was one of the areas on the dry side but they’ve got skiing in the mountains as well

1-C5276-B7-6-EE5-4966-8666-109-F7-A0272-BC.jpg
 
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Highly recommend Jackson Hole. Few things I enjoy more than fly fishing in a remote stream deep in the Tetons
 
Highly recommend Jackson Hole. Few things I enjoy more than fly fishing in a remote stream deep in the Tetons
I know Jackson Hole and the Tetons like the back of my hand. Went there for 3 weeks every summer since I was a kid. Got married there and actually have an uncle that lives there when he’s not oversees as an expat. That community was hit pretty hard by the virus though. My photo is from a place in the nearby wind river range. Much more secluded but still very beautiful.
 
Ever been to Bend, Oregon? I was there last summer for work and stayed a few extra days. That area is gorgeous and there’s lots of random local beer places if that’s your kind of thing. This was one of the areas on the dry side but they’ve got skiing in the mountains as well

1-C5276-B7-6-EE5-4966-8666-109-F7-A0272-BC.jpg
I might have been near there but I didn’t have much time to stop in Oregon beyond seeing the Lewis and Clark camp by the Pacific (forget the name) and Astoria. I have been to the Seattle area twice though and it’s an amazing place. The city, Mountains, Volcanoes, rain forests and the ocean all meet. I climbed Rainier a couple years ago and that was quite a trip. If you’re ever back up that way, I would suggest visiting North Cascades National Park and the Ho Rainforest on the Olympic peninsula.
 
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I know Jackson Hole and the Tetons like the back of my hand. Went there for 3 weeks every summer since I was a kid. Got married there and actually have an uncle that lives there when he’s not oversees as an expat. That community was hit pretty hard by the virus though. My photo is from a place in the nearby wind river range. Much more secluded but still very beautiful.

My wife’s uncle has a house across from Harrison’s Ford’s elk preserve. Just a gorgeous area. Something very special in seeing bears run across your lawn and wake up to a moose outside your window in the am.
 
Even more off topic, Wind River is an excellent movie if you haven't seen it
 
My wife’s uncle has a house across from Harrison’s Ford’s elk preserve. Just a gorgeous area. Something very special in seeing bears run across your lawn and wake up to a moose outside your window in the am.
Bears are like g*dda*mn giant mutant raccoons. They get into my trash just often enough to be super annoying, but not often enough for the county to give me a bear proof trash can.

We don’t have moose, but seeing deer and occasionally elk in my front yard is a treat.
 
Bears are like g*dda*mn giant mutant raccoons. They get into my trash just often enough to be super annoying, but not often enough for the county to give me a bear proof trash can.

We don’t have moose, but seeing deer and occasionally elk in my front yard is a treat.

My wife’s family has a cabin in Ruidoso. Very familiar with this NM black bears.
 
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Bears are like g*dda*mn giant mutant raccoons. They get into my trash just often enough to be super annoying, but not often enough for the county to give me a bear proof trash can.

We don’t have moose, but seeing deer and occasionally elk in my front yard is a treat.
Is your trash can branded “Coleman”? That’s a baby blackbear’s first word.
 
Ever been to Bend, Oregon? I was there last summer for work and stayed a few extra days. That area is gorgeous and there’s lots of random local beer places if that’s your kind of thing. This was one of the areas on the dry side but they’ve got skiing in the mountains as well

1-C5276-B7-6-EE5-4966-8666-109-F7-A0272-BC.jpg

Smith Rock is awesome, but everyone knows you really go to Bend to visit the last remaining Blockbuster in the world.

180713123301-blockbuster-bend-oregon-exlarge-169.jpg
 
Smith Rock is awesome, but everyone knows you really go to Bend to visit the last remaining Blockbuster in the world.

180713123301-blockbuster-bend-oregon-exlarge-169.jpg

Sadly I had no idea that existed until I heard a podcast a while back or I would have rented a movie and returned it 3 days late just for nostalgia.

I also found out months later a cousin that I grew up with who I haven't seen or heard from in 15 years lives there. She went pretty hard into drugs for a time and I half-expected she was dead. Turns out she's alive and well in paradise.

You're an Oregon guy right? Are there especially hefty fines there for littering or just strong social enforcement/pressure against it? One of the things I was most impressed with was how there was literally no trash on the ground anywhere. Not on the highway, not anywhere in town, not in the parks. It was pristine. This is something that really irritates me when I go to lakes or out hiking in Oklahoma. If you're going out in nature to enjoy nature why ruin it by leaving garbage everywhere?
 
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You're an Oregon guy right? Are there especially hefty fines there for littering or just strong social enforcement/pressure against it? One of the things I was most impressed with was how there was literally no trash on the ground anywhere. Not on the highway, not anywhere in town, not in the parks. It was pristine. This is something that really irritates me when I go to lakes or out hiking in Oklahoma. If you're going out in nature to enjoy nature why ruin it by leaving garbage everywhere?

Yeah, I grew up going to Keystone Lake and it seemed like standard practice for people to leave their sites a mess. I don't know how you fix it.

The maximum fines in Oregon are high ($6250), but I don't get the sense that it's ever really applied. I do think there's social aspect to it, especially in that part of the state. Very little of the area is actually designated as even a State Park, but it has the feel of a National Park. Oregon gets typecast as a liberal place, but outside of Portland there's an awful lot of Ron Swanson types that just don't want anyone (including government) messing with them or the slice of nature around them.

I think there's also more emphasis on nature curriculum in the schools. The lottery has $22 million earmarked every year specifically for sending every 5th grader in the state to basically go camping for a week during the school year and they spend a good chunk of that time focused on proper camping/hiking etiquette and Pack In/Pack Out.

As you get closer to Portland, the combination of homeless populations and Instagram hikers make it more difficult to maintain. Especially popular areas like the Columbia River Gorge. At some point, there's just too many people visiting too small an area to keep it pristine.
 
Yeah, I grew up going to Keystone Lake and it seemed like standard practice for people to leave their sites a mess. I don't know how you fix it.

Outside most small towns you can find creeks with old washing machines and beds tossed in them. The state would need to crack down really hard because it's a widespread issue that goes beyond the idiots forgetting to pick up their trash. There's heaps of scrap metal and garbage in these areas that have been there for decades.
 
My current changes because of the virus:


Health Insurance Premium Rate was raised 10% in an "emergency mid year adjustment after several years of no adjustments" (even though they raised it 3 times in 5 years).... and to top it off my employer dropped their contribution level by 3%. Turned into a ~$100 cost increase.


Car + Home Insurance rose $50/ Month
 
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My current changes because of the virus:


Health Insurance Premium Rate was raised 10% in an "emergency mid year adjustment after several years of no adjustments" (even though they raised it 3 times in 5 years).... and to top it off my employer dropped their contribution level by 3%. Turned into a ~$100 cost increase.


Car + Home Insurance rose $50/ Month
Car insurance got raised? That has been one of the few bright spots for me. My insurance company actually refunded me like 10% of my already paid premium because nobody is driving and claims are way down.
 
Car insurance got raised? That has been one of the few bright spots for me. My insurance company actually refunded me like 10% of my already paid premium because nobody is driving and claims are way down.
It was a combination of car + home... I'm probably going to look elsewhere eventually.
 
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