Afghanistan 2021...

[astonmartin708]

Right now, my main worry is that we don’t get all of our own out and we have a hostage situation. I feel terrible for the allies we have there, but we signed their death warrants 20 years ago when we went in. These middle eastern wars were despicable blunders. Anyone involved deserves blame.

 

[noble cane]

I do think we should be able to expect more from the citizens of a society that we clearly benefited for 20 years.

Seriously.. you cant instill nationalist fervor into a tribal society in 20 yrs (you can take a nationalist one and tribalize it though). The only uniting element for all these tribes is Islam. The Taliban claimed that card. All the trappings of a secular world cant beat that play.

 

[noble cane]

Right now, my main worry is that we don’t get all of our own out and we have a hostage situation. I feel terrible for the allies we have there, but we signed their death warrants 20 years ago when we went in. These middle eastern wars were despicable blunders. Anyone involved deserves blame.

Cool.. can we get helicopters and transports burning in the desert this time too?

 

[astonmartin708]

Seriously.. you cant instill nationalist fervor into a tribal society in 20 yrs (you can take a nationalist one and tribalize it though). The only uniting element for all these tribes is Islam. The Taliban claimed that card. All the trappings of a secular world cant beat that play.

Some are apparently nationalized enough to hang on planes trying to escape their failing nation. I understand the tribal nature of the country that you refer to. The logistics of that part of the world are a mess. Reason number 1 why we should have never gone in.

Don’t fight wars in jungles, don’t fight wars in mountain passes.

 

[astonmartin708]

Btw…

 

[lawpoke87]

There was broad based support for bringing the troops home. The problem was ignoring our military leaders and executing the failed plan we are now witnessing. Hell…Biden had no clue what was going on in Afghanistan two days ago. See the clip posted in this thread. The issue isn’t the plan it’s the incompetence in its implementation. Not sure anyone can argue with that. The only winner from all of this….Jimmy Carter

 

[TU 1978]

That wasnt how you framed your initial argument.. you were going to hand out guns to a mob and tell them to fight..

And yet that’s what the ragtag Afghan army turned out to be - just like the south Vietnamese army we ‘trained’ decades ago. We never f***ing learn, do we?

 

[astonmartin708]

There was broad based support for bringing the troops home. The problem was ignoring our military leaders and executing the failed plan we are now witnessing. Hell…Biden had no clue what was going on in Afghanistan two days ago. See the clip posted in this thread. The issue isn’t the plan it’s the incompetence in its implementation. Not sure anyone can argue with that. The only winner from all of this….Jimmy Carter

Ignoring the military leaders who had clearly led us into such a briar patch already?

Honesty, there isn’t much of a good way to get the last remnants of any force out of a city that is surrounded. There will always be a contingent that is left to defend. Our problem is that we need to make that number as small as possible.

 

[astonmartin708]

There was broad based support for bringing the troops home. The problem was ignoring our military leaders and executing the failed plan we are now witnessing. Hell…Biden had no clue what was going on in Afghanistan two days ago. See the clip posted in this thread. The issue isn’t the plan it’s the incompetence in its implementation. Not sure anyone can argue with that. The only winner from all of this….Jimmy Carter

Trump himself said that Biden (or his admin) wanted to stop / delay the process and couldn’t.

 

[URedskin54]

Trump himself said that Biden (or his admin) wanted to stop / delay the process and couldn’t.

If this is going to be the Biden line today that’s embarrassing

 

[astonmartin708]

Gallows

If this is going to be the Biden line today that’s embarrassing.

I suppose? There are a million moving parts in these sorts of operations. I’m more embarrassed for the military leaders who came up with the plans. And the simple fact that we put ourselves in such an untenable situation in the first place.

There are also a lot of procedural things we don’t think about. What would be best would have been to get our embassy folks out weeks ago, but we probably wanted to keep them there to try and held leftover nationals or Afghan allies get out.

 

[astonmartin708]

If we get every American soldier / civilian out and as many Afghans as we can, I think I am ok outcome. I just hope we don’t lose anyone to capture and we don’t leave too much equipment behind.

 

[lawpoke87]

Trump himself said that Biden (or his admin) wanted to stop / delay the process and couldn’t.

He did in fact delay the decision. He also failed to follow the advice of the military advisors on the best way to leave the country in order to best protect those involved. Let’s hope Biden doesn’t seek to blame others. Weak leadership of so. Take responsibility for the way this was handled and get everyone out safely. Our allies their are toast.

 

[astonmartin708]

He did in fact delay the decision. He also failed to follow the advice of the military advisors on the best way to leave the country in order to best protect those involved. Let’s hope Biden doesn’t seek to blame others. Weak leadership of so. Take responsibility for the way this was handled and get everyone out safely. Our allies their are toast.

I think a better description is that he listened to the advice of one set of military advisors instead of another set. It’s rare that Presidents come up with entire military strategies on their own, out of the blue these days. He was probably presented a number of options given the scenario, and the pros and cons of each and he made a decision. So far the optics of the results haven’t been great. I will concede that. But his ultimate goal is to get every American out. Full stop.

 

[lawpoke87]

Just how culpable are we for the deaths of these people ?

 

[URedskin54]

This president was supposed to be something like a return to normalcy and he’s every bit as pathetic as his predecessor. Taking zero responsibility and intentionally conflating “how” with “why”

Blaming the people falling off of transport planes for not holding off a Taliban advance in fighting season while he took a vacation and kneecapped them militarily. That’s real leadership right there.

 

[lawpoke87]

Assume he mentioned that we took away their intelligence and people who service their weapons…correct ? I’m really curious to see how we trained not only their soldiers but also support and intelligence people. Someone failed miserably here. Not sure if it’s the trainers or the trainees. Also not sure how we didn’t realize how unprepared or unwilling they were to fight.

If you’re Biden how do you not take questions?

 

[URedskin54]

Assume he mentioned that we took away their intelligence and people who service their weapons…correct ? I’m really curious to see how we trained not only their soldiers but also support and intelligence people. Someone failed miserably here. Not sure if it’s the trainers or the trainees. Also not sure how we didn’t realize how unprepared or unwilling they were to fight.

It’s not quite that black and white. The Afghans have fought hard and for a long time. They’ve had at least 10,000 KIA the last two years and probably greater than 50,000 overall. In this era our leaders would cut and run in 5 seconds if we had those numbers. So the notion that they’re a bunch of cowards that wouldn’t fight for their country and their families (and I know you’re not saying that) is just grossly unfair. In regard to their training, compared to us yes they’re a poor fighting force. But aside from a few foreign fighters the Taliban is straight garbage. The Afghans were bad but they were trained well enough.

But yes their military was built like ours and dependent on the same things ours is like contractors and aerial surveillance. So when we pulled that stuff and grounded most of their air force, that’s a pretty bad situation for them.

 

[astonmartin708]

It’s not quite that black and white. The Afghans have fought hard and for a long time. They’ve had at least 10,000 KIA the last two years and probably greater than 50,000 overall. In this era our leaders would cut and run in 5 seconds if we had those numbers. So the notion that they’re a bunch of cowards that wouldn’t fight for their country and their families (and I know you’re not saying that) is just grossly unfair. In regard to their training, compared to us yes they’re a poor fighting force. But aside from a few foreign fighters the Taliban is straight garbage. The Afghans we’re bad but they were trained well enough.

But yes their military was built like ours and dependent on the same things ours is like contractors and aerial surveillance. So when we pulled that stuff and grounded most of their air force, that’s a pretty bad situation for them.

Why did they not have the people in place to do it themselves?

 

[lawpoke87]

Why did they not have the people in place to do it themselves?

I posed the same question? I know we rely on a lot of civilian contractors for the service and upkeep on many of our more advanced platforms. Not sure what the plan was over there. Having people those people in place is obviously our responsibility since they’re our weapon systems. Hard to imagine we just left without providing them with the ability to operate those systems. However, I’m not sure anyone could have imagined what we’re currently seeing over there.

 

[astonmartin708]

I posed the same question? I know we rely on a lot of civilian contractors for the service and upkeep on many of our more advanced platforms. Not sure what the plan was over there. Having people those people in place is obviously our responsibility since they’re our weapon systems.

I think your definition of “our weapons systems” is a bit different than mine. We might have had a responsibility to train them to maintain them, but we had no responsibility when we notified them that we were withdrawing all of our troops, to continue their maintenance. That should have been something we were doing for the last 10 years. (Training their technicians to service the weapons)

If we didn’t trust their technicians to service the weapons we gave them, then we shouldn’t have given them the weapons and expected them to use them on their own.

 

[noble cane]

Assume he mentioned that we took away their intelligence and people who service their weapons…correct ? I’m really curious to see how we trained not only their soldiers but also support and intelligence people. Someone failed miserably here. Not sure if it’s the trainers or the trainees. Also not sure how we didn’t realize how unprepared or unwilling they were to fight.

If you’re Biden how do you not take questions?

Uh.. the questions are too tough and the answers werent on cards.

 

[lawpoke87]

I think your definition of “our weapons systems” is a bit different than mine. We might have had a responsibility to train them to maintain them, but we had no responsibility when we notified them that we were withdrawing all of our troops, to continue their maintenance. That should have been something we were doing for the last 10 years. (Training their technicians to service the weapons)

If we didn’t trust their technicians to service the weapons we gave them, then we shouldn’t have given them the weapons and expected them to use them on their own.

Article explains the situation fairly well.

Departure of Private Contractors Was a Turning Point in Afghan Military’s Collapse

For two decades, contractors provided key maintenance and military support.

foreignpolicy.com

 

[Gmoney4WW]

It’s not quite that black and white. The Afghans have fought hard and for a long time. They’ve had at least 10,000 KIA the last two years and probably greater than 50,000 overall. In this era our leaders would cut and run in 5 seconds if we had those numbers. So the notion that they’re a bunch of cowards that wouldn’t fight for their country and their families (and I know you’re not saying that) is just grossly unfair. And in regard to their training, compared to us yes they’re a poor fighting force. But aside from a few foreign fighters the Taliban is straight garbage. They Afghans we’re bad but they were trained well enough.

But yes their military was built like ours and dependent on the same things ours is like contractors and aerial surveillance. So when we pulled that stuff and grounded most of their air force, that’s a pretty bad situation for them.

My only question is how we would protect those contractors and Afghani support staff in the middle of a pullout. Unless it was by threat that we would be back in force if they attacked them, the same as that threat if they attacked our soldiers.

Not sure that threat would have been followed on the outside edges of our staffing of U.S., international, & Afghani citizens, quite so rigidly. They might have thought we would vacillate on whether to act, and further commit. It could have become a messy question.

Essentially, the Taliban may have decided to test us. They could have felt we would waver, on whether to allow ourselves to be provoked by those actions. If we had placed the threat on staff that could truly hinder their efforts to take back the country. That could have emblazoned them for fear of failure.

 

[lawpoke87]

Military brass wanted to keep the contractors and troops in place until an agreement was reached. An agreement which would have provided time and safety for the evacuation of all who we believed needed to leave. That obviously didn’t occur . We were caught completely off guard by the Taliban and are now scrambling to get everyone out. We have already abandoned the idea of getting our military out. We simply donated billions of dollars to the enemy.

 

[noble cane]

Serious question... if we were going to evacuate the country, why do it through the civilian airport when we had Bagrham right there?

Get everyone out then remote detonate potentially captured equipment.

This is going to turn into a situation where a civilian airport is under seige and both sides have itchy triggers.

 

[astonmartin708]

Military brass wanted to keep the contractors and troops in place until an agreement was reached. An agreement which would have provided time and safety for the evacuation of all who we believed needed to leave. That obviously didn’t occur . We were caught completely off guard by the Taliban and are now scrambling to get everyone out. We have already abandoned the idea of getting our military out. We simply donated billions of dollars to the enemy.

An agreement to leave was made last year. All that article told me was that the Afghan army was unprepared (mentally) to fight a war against the Taliban without air superiority. They wanted to be able to crush their enemies with the same ease and relative safety that we had when we went over there. When the fight was more evenly matched, they gave up.

 

[astonmartin708]

Serious question... if we were going to evacuate the country, why do it through the civilian airport when we had Bagrham right there?

Get everyone out then remote detonate potentially captured equipment.

This is going to turn into a situation where a civilian airport is under seige and both sides have itchy triggers.

I wondered that as well… maybe it’s just a size thing? I don’t know the difference in landing / runway space between the two.

 

[noble cane]

I wondered that as well… maybe it’s just a size thing? I don’t know the difference in landing / runway space between the two.

It was built by the Russians for their big equipment transports, i cant imagine it not having room.

 

[lawpoke87]

An agreement to leave was made last year. All that article told me was that the Afghan army was unprepared (mentally) to fight a war against the Taliban without air superiority. They wanted to be able to crush their enemies with the same ease and relative safety that we had when we went over there. When the fight was more evenly matched, they gave up.

The article states we built and trained the Afghan army to fight like we fight. An army which operates around air support. When your army has been trained to fight alongside air support and you take that support away it’s no surprised the army collapses. They haven’t been trained to fight without that support.

 

[watu05]

Foreign Affairs magazine offers an interesting perspective. We got into Afghanistan to get rid of Alquida, but stuck around doing nation building which no one has been able to do. It will take more than a single nation.

We All Lost Afghanistan

Two decades of mistakes, misjudgments, and collective failure

www.foreignaffairs.com

 

[URedskin54]

Interviews with Afghans who assisted the US and are still trapped in the country. These parts really stood out:

“Every other country helped their allies — Canada, the U.K., everyone. But the only country — the superpower — that failed to help their allies survive is the United States of America. I begged. I shouted. I asked.”

“People are not walking on the streets. Everybody is staying home and hiding themselves in order not to be caught. This is what we hear: that once they catch somebody that they are going after, they slaughter them and cut them into pieces, if he is a translator or a national Afghan army member or police.”

“We will die. This is our future now. We can’t do anything. We can’t reach Kabul in safety. What should we do? They (the U.S.) never think about our future, our family. They forgot our struggles and everything that we have done for them. Why are they doing this? I am extremely disappointed.”

‘We will not survive’: U.S. allies in Afghanistan share devastating stories

Afghan allies of the U.S. speak to the Deseret News and describe the situation in Afghanistan

www.deseret.com

 

[astonmartin708]

The article states we built and trained the Afghan army to fight like we fight. An army which operates around air support. When your army has been trained to fight alongside air support and you take that support away it’s no surprised the army collapses. They haven’t been trained to fight without that support.

Probably a mistake.

 

[astonmartin708]

I do think we're trying our best to get people out of the country. There are ~650 people in this photo on a plane with a suggested capacity of ~150. You see a number of women and children. As much as I hate that we won't save everyone, I'm happy to see the faces of those we are helping in the face of devastation.

P.S. I hope they're all vaccinated. 😌

 

[aTUfan]

if they are coming here Biden won't care

 

[TU 1978]

I do think we're trying our best to get people out of the country. There are ~650 people in this photo on a plane with a suggested capacity of ~150. You see a number of women and children. As much as I hate that we won't save everyone, I'm happy to see the faces of those we are helping in the face of devastation.

P.S. I hope they're all vaccinated. 😌

Spirit Airlines is flying again?

 

[astonmartin708]

Anyone notice a stark difference between “The buck stops with me” from Biden and all of the whining, blaming, and excuse making that Trump did at his rallies after he made serious errors?

Whatever you think of the moral dilemmas or the flaws in the execution of this action. He owned up to it, at least more than you have seen most other presidents including Obama due in recent times when they make mistakes. Maybe this is his Bay of Pigs. Hopefully he can do something substantial to make up for it.

 

[URedskin54]

Anyone notice a stark difference between “The buck stops with me” from Biden and all of the whining, blaming, and excuse making that Trump did at his rallies?

No. He said the buck stops with me while blaming literally everyone but himself and refusing to address the actual issue for most people which is “why did you **** up the withdrawal?” The speech was laced with excuse after excuse. And then he went back on vacation. Seeing Brian Williams get absolutely torched here, does offer me some consolation I guess.

 

[lawpoke87]

Anyone notice a stark difference between “The buck stops with me” from Biden and all of the whining, blaming, and excuse making that Trump did at his rallies after he made serious errors?

Whatever you think of the moral dilemmas or the flaws in the execution of this action. He owned up to it, at least more than you have seen most other presidents including Obama due in recent times when they make mistakes. Maybe this is his Bay of Pigs. Hopefully he can do something substantial to make up for it.

That’s not the speech I watched or at least my opinion on it. Not taking questions was inexcusable but what we’re coming to expect. Overall, I thought it was a very poor performance especially not answering questions about the situation.

 

[URedskin54]

There are apparently 5,000-10,000 Americans still stuck in country and cut off from the airport. I'd imagine we're going to try to bribe the Taliban with tons of money to allow them safe passage, but it's hard to imagine a situation where everyone gets out alive. Wouldn't be shocked if there end up being American military units are the ground having to fight off taliban to reach people. Biggest problem is we seem to not know how many people are left.