Seems u throw in an extra /quote[], and it screws with it. I just quoted you, and it was screwy until I removed the extra /quote[]. (Brackets[] around /quote)
2 Tulsa Players With Coronavirus
- Thread starter TulsaFanFromStigler
- Start date
Actually this is a classic example of why you need a strong federal government - other than war fighting this is probably the single best example you could find of the importance of a national government and appropriate problem for them to handle. States don't have the resources or expertise to handle this themselves, duplicating effort across states is a waste of resources and dilutes expertise in all of them, the inability to coordinate large scale response. It's all the hallmarks of a federal problem. But the feds have been on the sideline resulting in inconsistent responses. Illinois is in lockdown but Missouri, which shares an urban area with Illinois, is not. How does that make sense? If a backwards place like florida gets hit it moves seamlessly into surrounding states no matter what they do. Were all stuck with the least competent response. States are left bidding against each other for supplies. You wont find a more classic example of federal problem.
If you're not going to have federal action on a problem like this, you might as well go to an EU style system.
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States are fighting over medical supplies, begging companies to manufacture supplies. People are partying on the beaches in florida and then returning to their home states. It's a $hit show out there resulting from absolute failure of the federal government. Starting from the testing disaster through now, the feds have failed massively. Why have a federal government if its paralyzed by incompetence and most of all cowardice.
Keeping in mind the Stafford Act, what do you want the Fed’s to do?
There’s is no doubt the CDC screwed up testing with the faulty tests. The best solution was to mobilize private labs and ramp up production...which was done. We’ve also contracted with places like Ford and GM to produce medical equipment such as vents. Same with masks and private industry.
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If I'm not mistaken, most of the mobilization of private labs and private industry has been done by individual states, not the federal government, which continues to be ineffectual. Every morning Trump and his minions appear on TV and say we're doing this and we're doing that. Lots of "doing" but precious little "done."
I’m not sure if I would agree with that statement. Companies like Roche and Labquest were called in by the Fed’s for production and testing. States have thousands of labs for testing as well which should be utilized. I combined approach is obviously required. We were obviously placed behind the eight ball when it was discovered that the CDC teats were faulty.
Is it not safe to assume the Fed’s are acting in a manner consistent with what the State’s Governors have asked? I haven’t heard Cuomo complain about the current model and responsibilities of each party. The Fed’s have conference calls with the Governors on a daily basis. Do you believe the Fed’s aren’t doing what the Governors have requested ?
I do believe we need to look at the CDC and WHO after this crisis is over. The WHO was claiming as late as late January that there was no documented airborn transmission. They also didn’t recommend a China travel ban. The issues with the CDC have been discussed.
Some good news at least in Tulsa is that tests are available.
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The CDC is part of the executive branch and responsibility for it rolls up especially since this was a well known risk. Much of the work with private industry has been done by the states, competing with each other. The feds can do coordinated purchasing to eliminate the states competing with each other. The feds can't order people to stay at home but can put tremendous pressure on states to do so. The frontline response has been planned by municipal school boards, mayors and governors because the feds were downplaying the hazard for the first part of the crisis. The feds could be making strong guidelines and recommendations with threats about participation in purchasing pools to cause action. There's a lot the feds can as a practical matter do.
Btw a much higher percentage of the seriously ill in the US are younger people. Might be because they haven't taken it seriously or might be different here.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...-severe-coronavirus-symptoms-younger-n1166026
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...-severe-coronavirus-symptoms-younger-n1166026
Trump has sh1t the bed on this.
Inaction early is bad enough but, he convinced a lot of his supporters that it wasn’t very bad at all and totally under control. Even this weekend there were people saying it’s not a big deal and just fake news hype. That’s his worst failure and if things continue as expected, will likely wipe away any chance he had at re-election.
It amazes me how his tweets and speeches continually have him contradicting himself yet, folks continue to believe he’s doing an awesome and honest job.
Inaction early is bad enough but, he convinced a lot of his supporters that it wasn’t very bad at all and totally under control. Even this weekend there were people saying it’s not a big deal and just fake news hype. That’s his worst failure and if things continue as expected, will likely wipe away any chance he had at re-election.
It amazes me how his tweets and speeches continually have him contradicting himself yet, folks continue to believe he’s doing an awesome and honest job.
The federal policy after the month of denial has been "do enough to be able to deflect blame if it goes really bad but not enough to be at risk if it ends up being overblown." It's a ratings driven response rather than a public health response. This is a central government that has seized unprecedented power but now is claiming their hands are tied? It takes courage to take firm action and we have the biggest coward in the history of mankind runnung the show.
I don’t disagree with the White House has ultimate responsibility. My question has always been when our top scientist and doctors are telling you we have 500k test kits ready to roll how does anyone outside of that circle suppose to know they are wrong. As I’ve said many times, those in charge of the CDC should be held accountable...and that included Fauci.
Do you believe the Governors asked or even want the Fed’s to coordinate their purchasing of supplies and the Fed’s said no? I find it hard to believe the Governors wouldn’t be raising hell if the Fed’s went against their wishes. Thus, you’re wanting the Fed’s to take an action for the states which the states don’t want. If this is not true than I will change my position and condemn the Fed’s for their actions. I believe that’s a fair position.
Yes thats exactly what happened. The governors are begging the feds to take charge. It's all over the news.
Besides the feds should take charge if it's the right thing to do regardless of what the governor's want. The feds can enter the market even if texas or iowa want to buy on their own
When Oklahoma was completely dependent on the federal government for testing, it had fewer than 100 test kits available. Then the state made its own deals with private labs and was able to send off 300 kits for testing. Testing in Oklahoma has been done largely without the help of the federal (Trump) government. Still, with a population of about 3.5 million, Oklahoma has done a woefully poor job of testing.[
Can you provide a link where Governors are asking the Fed’s to take charge of their purchasing of supplies. Most interesting in the states like NY and California since they are the hardest hit.
Disagree on the Fed’s taking charge against the Governors wishes. The Governors know their vendors, needs and supply chains much better than the Fed’s. Remember...their are 50 of them. We should trust that the Governors know how best to serve the states which they run. Again..if the Governors don’t want the current setup then I will do a 180 in my position.
There’s no question that testing has been vastly inadequate. Glad to see it coming around in Oklahoma.
Do a Google search. It's NY, Illinois and CA and others. MA and NM governors said the feds are outbidding the states and keeping states from buying in the market.
Have you ever been involved in purchasing or procurement? The idea of letting 50 different divisions purchase separately is ridiculous. For example, I worked at a place that sold internet ads back in the early days. Companies didnt consolidate ad buying then and we'd have different groups in the same company bid against each other. One Walmart group would bid against another Walmart group and drive the price up. It was a bummer when they got their $hit in order, brought prices down a lot and volume too since both groups bid for more ads than they really wanted to make sure they werent short.
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Thanks. I do see where Cuomo said the current process is driving up the cost of supplies. Which makes perfect sense. The Governors are on the front lines. The Fed’s need to listen to what they’re saying and abide by the same. This obviously won’t increase the quantity of the product but should make it more affordable. Trump needs to answer why the current process is in place. It obviously won’t significantly change the number of supplies but hopefully the costs.
I struggle to take any of this thread seriously. I get that it is the new national past time to assign blame for everything that happens in this world. When any of you want to discuss the 30,000 annual deaths in the US from influenza, let me know. That’s 20,000 people on a good year and 60,000 people in a bad year. Every year.
And please don’t tell me that the covid is more dangerous or is more communicable. I didn’t see this level of interest in 2009 when H1N1 had 60,000,000 Americans sick, and 13,000 US deaths. Where were y’all then? Swine flu had killed 1000 people before it was declared an emergency in the US by the president at that time. And swine flu was killing younger people, not older.
Search YouTube for 2009 H1N1 Influenza Update by Dr. Anthony Fauci. It is the video that’s 10:01 long. It’s very strange. He seems very calm and not willing to shut down the entire economy of this country at that time even though the deaths were piling up.
And please don’t tell me that the covid is more dangerous or is more communicable. I didn’t see this level of interest in 2009 when H1N1 had 60,000,000 Americans sick, and 13,000 US deaths. Where were y’all then? Swine flu had killed 1000 people before it was declared an emergency in the US by the president at that time. And swine flu was killing younger people, not older.
Search YouTube for 2009 H1N1 Influenza Update by Dr. Anthony Fauci. It is the video that’s 10:01 long. It’s very strange. He seems very calm and not willing to shut down the entire economy of this country at that time even though the deaths were piling up.
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I guess two wrongs now do make a right. According to your logic, we can only try to prevent the top killer since everything else is definitionally unimportant from your view. If those arguments don't make you smh then you're impervious to eat way out there lunacy.
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It'll help with shortages. Now governors and mayors are motivated to buy everything they can get whether they need it or not becsuse it might not be available later. It's a somewhat less irrational version of the toilet paper problem. Central allocation means you avoid the hoarding which is economically rational behavior otherwise and allocate resources where they are most needed. This is all basic inventory issues, nobody is inventing any new needs or solutions here.
Not saying that at all. We have one virus that kills 30,000 people a year, like clockwork. There seems to be no reaction too frantic about that. We have another virus that has killed 400 people so far during the same period. I’m not saying don’t do anything, I’m saying does it mean we should crush our economy and have martial law?
Did you watch the 2009 Dr Fauci video? He sure didn’t seem too concerned about the swine flu at the time.
Tell you what, Chito. Since our president has done such a terrible job and this is the biggest killer that’s ever come along let’s make a bet. Give me a number. How many Americans will be dead from coronavirus by July 1. Since you are an armchair epidemiologist, how many do you think? Obama’s former CMS director says a million. What’s your number?
I for one am shocked that the individual states are better and more efficient at securing and distributing resources than a massive federal bureaucracy
My point throughout has been that I dont know enough to have an opinion. I hope that the people in charge are making good decisions. But I'm just some guy why would anyone care what my opinion is. But if I was in a pool, given whats been done so far my guess for July 1 would be 6000. What would it have been otherwise? I have no idea.
They're not better they're just trying. If you know enough people in state government youd know better than to pin your hopes on 50 states to do this well.
Btw don't you think the right conclusion is that we should do a lot more to prevent flu deaths instead of that we should do a lot less on coronavirus? The fact that we're $ucking up one place really doesnt justify $ucking up everywhere else too.
Ok so at 6000 will it have been worth it to potentially put millions out of work, cost trillions of dollars and staggered the economy? How about at 12,000? 24,000? Oh wait, we already have a virus that does that. In the historical parlance, I guess some viruses are more equal than others.
FWIW, your guess is reasonable. I’ll say 4700.
6000 is based on the massive efforts underway. The question you should ask is how many would have died if we'd done nothing? I have no idea. There are no places that did that to even give us data. In addition to deaths we also need to consider hospitalizations, longer term issues for survivors etc. There are major costs associated with that too. What would those costs plus costs and impact of deaths have been in the ignore it over 9-18 months before a vaccine was available? Who knows.
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I’m saying that we should all do the simple things. Wash your damn hands. If you feel sick stay away from other people. Don’t go to work. All the stuff our mothers taught us. I’m not saying that is the magic bullet solution to everything, but in the end all of this is about transmission. We all just have to be smarter about transmission.
Seriously, watch that video I keep referencing. It contains more common sense than about anything I’ve heard. That was way way back 11 years ago when we were rational about this stuff.
And btw, the CFR is settling in at about 1.2%. Pretty close to influenza.
There have been about 20,000,000 influenza medical visits, and about 400,000 influenza hospitalizations this season. That’s a pretty hefty cost too.
There have been about 20,000,000 influenza medical visits, and about 400,000 influenza hospitalizations this season. That’s a pretty hefty cost too.
We could always do nothing and see where we end up at.
How many millions is constantly thrown at the flu year after year? How many variants of it do we have vaccines for?
We have nothing on this virus. Efforts like what the US is doing have been fairly successful across the globe. Italy is the outlier there but, with the limited US testing, we have no clue what our numbers are.
If it’s dumb, head to bar, take a cruise, fly to Italy.
Have fun and enjoy.
Personally, I would prefer my family not end up with someone in ICU or dead so, we’re following the guidelines and riding it out.
Isn't that about 12x the flu death rate? Thats a pretty massive difference. I think there's a lot we still dont know like why is it seeming to cause serious cases in younger people with hospitalization at a higher rate here than other countries? Is it different or are younger people here more lackadaisical? Who knows. If it's worse for some reason thats obviously bad. With as little as I know, even I can figure that out!
I suspect a lot of the economic impact would have happened anyway just over a longer term. Governors have ripped the bandaid off. In the do nothing scenario as millions got sick and many died, most people would have stayed at home and businesses would have suffered a great deal but over a very long period. Restaurants and planes would have been empty because people would be scared. The hope is to squash it and make the pain period shorter so the net effect is less. Does that math work? How would I know? I'm sure there are people modeling it out. I like WD would be doing what I'm doing now regardless of whether restaurants etc were closed so the government hasn't created the economic impact from me staying away, it's all the virus. We're not under shelter in place yet but we and everone we know are living that way no matter what the government says.
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Fact is that any pandemic in this country will be more difficult to manage initially due to the culture. We Americans do what we want, when we want, and how we want consequences be damned. I our President is a pretty fine example of that.
There are a lot of people who wouldn't even do what you advise to do before the state reached this point. Until it was recognized seriously enough that state and federal government started putting out orders for things like lockdowns of cities, people ignored the imperativeness of those kinds of simple actions. It is regrettable that some people have to have those kind of actions to realize the seriousness of it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is necessary.
Again, I’m not advocating doing nothing. The closures and cancellations are going to have a positive impact.
I am betting you did not stay home and Quarantine yourself in 2009 when the swine flu was pandemic. And that flu was killing people in your age range, contrary to the coronavirus. Your odds were worse than they are now.
They definitely did quarantine people that got swine flu in 2009. They also closed more than 600 schools across the country.
This whole thread seems like a big case of denial.
South Korea is a great example of what to do in this situation. They quarantined their elderly, instituted tight controls of hand sanitizion in public places, all while shutting down very little. After a large initial spike they flattened the curve very quickly. And their economy motored on.
Italy kept their borders open. Most of their infection came from outsiders coming into the country. Famously, it appears their patient zero was a Pakistani who was told to self quarantine. Instead, he continued making deliveries for a Chinese restaurant all over the area for 2 weeks. Their fatality numbers may be skewed higher because of the reporting codes they use. Their codes do not allow as much for comorbidity reporting.The average age of fatalities is 81 years old.
Italy kept their borders open. Most of their infection came from outsiders coming into the country. Famously, it appears their patient zero was a Pakistani who was told to self quarantine. Instead, he continued making deliveries for a Chinese restaurant all over the area for 2 weeks. Their fatality numbers may be skewed higher because of the reporting codes they use. Their codes do not allow as much for comorbidity reporting.The average age of fatalities is 81 years old.
South Korea had a sufficient number of tests on hand to adequately handle the identification of the virus in their population. They learned their lesson after 2009. We don’t have that thanks to the Cheeto Bandito.
Which is exactly my point. Closing schools was an appropriate response.
You can look at it as denial. I choose to look at it differently. To me, the real denial is denying that 20,000-60,000 people die annually from influenza. No matter what president is in office.
But I get it. The orange man is bad, everything is his fault. When the swine flu hit, it was almost a year after the WHO declared it a pandemic that the greatest president ever finally declared an emergency in this country. 13,000 people died. But 400>>13,000.
