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Ukraine….what’s our endgame here

YOUR. KIDS. FIRST.
When the call came, my immediate family has answered for generations. We have fought for freedom and this country in every major conflict since the civil war… I’m sure we will again.

Though it would be nice for the people who make a big show of their love of freedom and wrapping themselves in the flag when it’s convenient for them, to actually put their money where their mouth is. Or they should just shut up permanently.
 
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800K casualties with no plan for victory or end in sight three years in will do that to a lot of people
Most of those casualties are Russians… Putin could stop the deaths tomorrow. He just needs to leave the world order as he found it.

P.S. that’s about the same amount as were casualties in one of the larger WWI battles in 4 months.
 
Walking through a field of crosses while looking for your relatives that died on the beaches will do that..

But, its even more interesting how liberal doves become warhawks when a show force could have nipped this in the bud 3 yrs ago..

I'm on the record saying that 1st armored cav, the marine exp force and the 3rd air force could have been deployed for a training op and stopped this..

Instead we drew the same red lines that we did when Vlad took the Crimea..

I am curious though why no one wants elections in the Ukraine when we have held them during every war we have ever fought..
This is the stupidest sentiment ever.

Those fields of crosses died for something. Their sacrifices had meaning. They were valued. You just want to make the sacrifices of fields of people mean nothing. For it to have all been for naught.

As far as elections go, you Putin parrot, it’s hard to hold legitimate elections when your country is being invaded by a foreign adversary, and much of your electorate is behind enemy lines and many more are in trenches being shot at.

You think Putin’s sham referendums holding people at gunpoint were signs of legitimacy?
 
Walking through a field of crosses while looking for your relatives that died on the beaches will do that..

But, its even more interesting how liberal doves become warhawks when a show force could have nipped this in the bud 3 yrs ago..

I'm on the record saying that 1st armored cav, the marine exp force and the 3rd air force could have been deployed for a training op and stopped this..

Instead we drew the same red lines that we did when Vlad took the Crimea..

I am curious though why no one wants elections in the Ukraine when we have held them during every war we have ever fought..

This stuff is close to home because we have Ukrainians in our family. Her family is directly involved in this conflict. Brother can leave the country and fighting. Mother and other family members left. This is real stuff, and how many have characterized this conflict is pretty sick here. The way they have characterized it in the media has just been to get paid. It isn't as a different way to think. Some of it has even been paid directly by Russian state propaganda like Tenet media with people like Benny Johnson and Tim Pool.

I am fine with discussing whether the US should give so much money. But don't act like we have given 300 billion dollars. We haven't. We have provided 80-90 billion in military aid built in the United States; much of it is old equipment. Some of us have discovered how bad our logistics capabilities are for major conflicts. We can't build big artillery rounds. Now, the big orange guy will reduce the size of the military even further. Good luck boys! We voted for it.

Putin was doing that crap well before in places like Georgia and Chechnya. The history of Ukraine is that they wanted to be allied with the West because they like Western freedoms in the EU, not sham courts and mafia oligarchies that exist in Russia. There was history there with the Orange and Maidan Revolutions.

You people curiously, willfully or ignorantly don't talk about it. I don't know what it is. It is more significant that Putin didn't want them in NATO, so he invaded. GTFOH. Watch their stuff on Russian State TV. Watch Putin's speeches and what he wrote about before he invaded.

Putin was a weird ally to some of the right-wing because he talked about trannies, so that's super cool etc...



This is a very weird reading of history....

 
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When the call came, my immediate family has answered for generations. We have fought for freedom and this country in every major conflict since the civil war… I’m sure we will again.

Though it would be nice for the people who make a big show of their love of freedom and wrapping themselves in the flag when it’s convenient for them, to actually put their money where their mouth is. Or they should just shut up permanently.
Thank you lefftenant dan
 
This stuff is close to home because we have Ukrainians in our family. Her family is directly involved in this conflict. Brother can leave the country and fighting. Mother and other family members left. This is real stuff, and how many have characterized this conflict is pretty sick here. The way they have characterized it in the media has just been to get paid. It isn't as a different way to think. Some of it has even been paid directly by Russian state propaganda like Tenet media with people like Benny Johnson and Tim Pool.

I am fine with discussing whether the US should give so much money. But don't act like we have given 300 billion dollars. We haven't. We have provided 80-90 billion in military aid built in the United States; much of it is old equipment. Some of us have discovered how bad our logistics capabilities are for major conflicts. We can't build big artillery rounds. Now, the big orange guy will reduce the size of the military even further. Good luck boys! We voted for it.

Putin was doing that crap well before in places like Georgia and Chechnya. The history of Ukraine is that they wanted to be allied with the West because they like Western freedoms in the EU, not sham courts and mafia oligarchies that exist in Russia. There was history there with the Orange and Maidan Revolutions.

You people curiously, willfully or ignorantly don't talk about it. I don't know what it is. It is more significant that Putin didn't want them in NATO, so he invaded. GTFOH. Watch their stuff on Russian State TV. Watch Putin's speeches and what he wrote about before he invaded.

Putin was a weird ally to some of the right-wing because he talked about trannies, so that's super cool etc...



This is a very weird reading of history....

How upset were you watching us sit on our hands while Russia invaded Ukraine knowing Ukraine would never be able to take back that lost territory once Russia established defensive lines?

What’s your solution to either win or end this war? There’s almost universal agreement that Ukraine’s military position will weaken over time as will their negotiating position.
 
Most of those casualties are Russians… Putin could stop the deaths tomorrow. He just needs to leave the world order as he found it.

P.S. that’s about the same amount as were casualties in one of the larger WWI battles in 4 months.
Agree. Unfortunately, I don’t see that happening. So it’s either a NATO ground war against Russia or a peace deal. Time isn’t on the Ukrainian side
 
Trump would have never done this. Trump wouldn't have put boots on the ground, he wouldn't have even given any aid to Zelensky. He would have just stood by hoping Putin took over the whole country in a few days. I thought you didn't want to be involved in anything military over there, but now you are crying because Biden didn't do training exercises in an attempt to scare them into backing down.
I wanted Biden to do them then... we had whole discussions on here regarding the similarities with the 1930's..
 
How upset were you watching us sit on our hands while Russia invaded Ukraine knowing Ukraine would never be able to take back that lost territory once Russia established defensive lines?

What’s your solution to either win or end this war? There’s almost universal agreement that Ukraine’s military position will weaken over time as will their negotiating position.
What's your solution other than kissing Putin's butt?
 
What's your solution other than kissing Putin's butt?
I’ve said 1000x. Once we allowed Putin to take that eastern territory Ukraine would never be able to supplant them. I would threaten military intervention in the war (NATO) and use that leverage to get the best deal we can. Not sure NATO is willing to make that threat though. The longer this goes the worse our negotiating position gets. Need to get this done sooner rather than later.

U agree? If not, what are your recs?
 
This thread needs some levity.

I wonder if Ukraine’s end game is Zelensky returning to his job as an entertainer. Maybe he can talk Macron into being his partner.
———-
Born to a Ukrainian Jewish family, Zelenskyy grew up as a native Russianspeaker in Kryvyi Rih, a major city of Dnipropetrovsk Oblast in central Ukraine. He obtained a degree in law from the Kryvyi Rih Institute of Economics, but never practised law and pursued a career in comedy and entertainment. He created the production company Kvartal 95, which produced films, cartoons, and TV shows including the TV series Servant of the People, in which Zelenskyy played a fictional Ukrainian president. The series aired from 2015 to 2019 and was immensely popular. A political party with the same name as the TV show was created in March 2018 by employees of Kvartal 95.
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This thread needs some levity.

I wonder if Ukraine’s end game is Zelensky returning to his job as an entertainer. Maybe he can talk Macron into being his partner.
———-
Born to a Ukrainian Jewish family, Zelenskyy grew up as a native Russianspeaker in Kryvyi Rih, a major city of Dnipropetrovsk Oblast in central Ukraine. He obtained a degree in law from the Kryvyi Rih Institute of Economics, but never practised law and pursued a career in comedy and entertainment. He created the production company Kvartal 95, which produced films, cartoons, and TV shows including the TV series Servant of the People, in which Zelenskyy played a fictional Ukrainian president. The series aired from 2015 to 2019 and was immensely popular. A political party with the same name as the TV show was created in March 2018 by employees of Kvartal 95.
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What is your point? Are you suggesting this is like Trump and the apprentice?
 
How upset were you watching us sit on our hands while Russia invaded Ukraine knowing Ukraine would never be able to take back that lost territory once Russia established defensive lines?

What’s your solution to either win or end this war? There’s almost universal agreement that Ukraine’s military position will weaken over time as will their negotiating position.
NATO airpower. It has never been applied.

Go look at the number of sorties we ran in the Gulf War before Iraq was invaded. 100,000 sorties

Kosovo air war. 38,000 combat missions.

Are we going to lose pilots and aircraft? Of course. Are the Russians going to lose a hell of a lot more? Yes.

Their artillery has to be ended.

Kaliningrad taken, and the Baltic fleet needed to be sunk. There have to be consequences. Putin thinks there are no real consequences for his actions at this point. None. zero.

Trump is talking about making Ukraine pay for this war. Not even Russia. Ukraine has no foreign troops, meaning there is zero security risk for a future invasion. The Russians get rid of all sanctions. They get to push all their propaganda. Hell, the Trump administration is eliminating all monitoring of foreign influence operations. Russia and China have to be laughing its ass off at how naive these idiots are. Things like I mentioned about Tenet. Gone.

These are riskless negotiations for the Russians. It is win, win, win, win, win, win, win. Trump can claim he was a peacemaker and stopped a war at the cost of making EU stronger. The EU a great american adversary, right? So stupid.
 
NATO airpower. It has never been applied.

Go look at the number of sorties we ran in the Gulf War before Iraq was invaded. 100,000 sorties

Kosovo air war. 38,000 combat missions.

Are we going to lose pilots and aircraft? Of course. Are the Russians going to lose a hell of a lot more? Yes.

Their artillery has to be ended.

Kaliningrad taken, and the Baltic fleet needed to be sunk. There have to be consequences. Putin thinks there are no real consequences for his actions at this point. None. zero.

Trump is talking about making Ukraine pay for this war. Not even Russia. Ukraine has no foreign troops, meaning there is zero security risk for a future invasion. The Russians get rid of all sanctions. They get to push all their propaganda. Hell, the Trump administration is eliminating all monitoring of foreign influence operations. Russia and China have to be laughing its ass off at how naive these idiots are. Things like I mentioned about Tenet. Gone.

These are riskless negotiations for the Russians. It is win, win, win, win, win, win, win. Trump can claim he was a peacemaker and stopped a war at the cost of making EU stronger. The EU a great american adversary, right? So stupid.
NATO will never agree to those military actions. The last thing they want is for this conflict to spread beyond Ukraine’s borders. Missiles hitting London, Paris, Berlin, etc…is their worst nightmare. They seem perfectly happy to supply Ukraine with just enough military assets to slowly lose the war
 
NATO will never agree to those military actions. The last thing they want is for this conflict to spread beyond Ukraine’s borders. Missiles hitting London, Paris, Berlin, etc…is their worst nightmare. They seem perfectly happy to supply Ukraine with just enough military assets to slowly lose the war
Russia is incapable of doing such things. They could not get their ships out of the Baltic Sea. At that point, aegis and patriot systems are knocking their stuff down, which they have shown to be capable of.

We would sink the entire baltic fleet—all of it. It would happen in hours. Two days max. Go look back at what happened with the Iranians in the 1980s.

He can't take Ukraine right now, which some NATO help. It is a joke.

The Ukrainians have put the black fleet inoperable without tomahawk cruise missiles, no subs, no aircraft carriers and very little air power, etc...

Our worst nightmare is losing an aircraft carrier. That is 5,000 sailors at the bottom of the sea.

Right now, they are flying little drones that go 6 kilos. We would be talking about dropping 2k jdams all over the place against their artillery once we have established air dominance. It would be over.
 
Russia is incapable of doing such things.
You’re wrong. Russia has hypersonic missiles which could easily reach every major city in Europe. Hypersonic missiles are very difficult for us to intercept. We might get some but others would surely reach their targets. NATO will not chance their major cities being hit
 
You’re wrong. Russia has hypersonic missiles which could easily reach every major city in Europe. Hypersonic missiles are very difficult for us to intercept. We might get some but others would surely reach their targets. NATO will not chance their major cities being hit
We have knocked all of their stuff out of the sky. All of it.

They have to feel pain. Right now. There are no consequences for their actions. None. Zero. We always have some vague threat for a few issues that we think are the end all be all. Our military capabilities are way, way beyond theirs. They know this.

Do you think they want to see 5 corps of combined-arms NATO troops in Ukraine with NATO air power if they start attempting missile launches on Berlin and Paris? Or our Navies going to work. The black sea fleet is finished.

Their air force can't even operate without getting decimated by our air defenses.

I said this when it all started. Now, three years later, my tune has not changed. 48 hours get out or NATO air power goes to work. We will lose planes and pilots, but Putin will feel lots and lots of pain.
 
We have knocked all of their stuff out of the sky. All of it.
No we haven’t. We are currently unable to effectively intercept hypersonic missiles. We even struggle at times intercepting traditional missiles when multiples are launched simultaneously. Europe will not risk its cities being hit. Quit reading the propaganda

 
You’re wrong. Russia has hypersonic missiles which could easily reach every major city in Europe. Hypersonic missiles are very difficult for us to intercept. We might get some but others would surely reach their targets. NATO will not chance their major cities being hit
By not chancing their major cities now, they chance more destruction to them later….

Where is your red line?

How many times do Putin and his stooges have to go against their word before you stop assuming they won’t use any advantage they have against you, in any way they want?

Remember… if london gets hit, so does Moscow, and St. Petersburg… and 50 other Russian cities. Is Putin willing to risk Nuclear War for Crimea? He has wagered that NATO thinks he will. Time to call his bluff. The US can’t let a nuclear power bluff them into submission. We learned that during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Trump lacks the backbone to do what’s right…. He does what is convenient and benefits him.
 
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By not chancing their major cities now, they chance more destruction to them later….

Where is your red line?

How many times do Putin and his stooges have to go against their word before you stop assuming they won’t use any advantage they have against you, in any way they want?
Europe is risk adverse when it comes to a widespread war on the continent. I assume they would have to be directly attacked before they would be willing to enter a war with Russia.

Do you disagree?
 
Europe is risk adverse when it comes to a widespread war on the continent. I assume they would have to be directly attacked before they would be willing to enter a war with Russia.

Do you disagree?
To some degree I think they are because of what they went through historically, but that memory is fading, many nations are looking at what’s happening and starting to grow some backbone. Especially those next in line like the Baltics or Poland.

I don’t think they would have to be directly attacked prior to entering. They don’t want to go back to Soviet rule and they might drag the UK and France with them.
 
Putin’s economy is crumbling. I can almost guarantee you that such is why he is coming to the table now. If it wasn’t, he would continue to whittle away at Ukraine to gain all of its territory and refuse peace talks.

Negotiating when one side is on the ropes is very dumb. Giving them all of their demands when they’re the ones who asked for peace talks is even dumber.

Lifting sanctions so as to encourage more of this behavior is monumentally dumb.

Almost as if it were all being done by someone who would lose money running a Casino

#TrumpSurrenders
 
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This thread needs some levity.

I wonder if Ukraine’s end game is Zelensky returning to his job as an entertainer. Maybe he can talk Macron into being his partner.
———-
Born to a Ukrainian Jewish family, Zelenskyy grew up as a native Russianspeaker in Kryvyi Rih, a major city of Dnipropetrovsk Oblast in central Ukraine. He obtained a degree in law from the Kryvyi Rih Institute of Economics, but never practised law and pursued a career in comedy and entertainment. He created the production company Kvartal 95, which produced films, cartoons, and TV shows including the TV series Servant of the People, in which Zelenskyy played a fictional Ukrainian president. The series aired from 2015 to 2019 and was immensely popular. A political party with the same name as the TV show was created in March 2018 by employees of Kvartal 95.
———


The same thing could have been said about Reagan after his first term. I don't the significance of this remark.
 
I wanted Biden to do them then... we had whole discussions on here regarding the similarities with the 1930's..
As far as your remark about elections in our times of war, I don't remember any bombs being dropped on us during our wars. The closest we ever came to that was cannonballs in the civil war. But never any bombs during wars with other countries. So your point seems kind of moot.
 
As far as your remark about elections in our times of war, I don't remember any bombs being dropped on us during our wars. The closest we ever came to that was cannonballs in the civil war. But never any bombs during wars with other countries. So your point seems kind of moot.
Pearl Harbor? Kind of?
 
As far as your remark about elections in our times of war, I don't remember any bombs being dropped on us during our wars. The closest we ever came to that was cannonballs in the civil war. But never any bombs during wars with other countries. So your point seems kind of moot.
We did have an election at the very tail end of the civil war, when things were pretty much wrapped up... of course it only encompassed the Northern states.... and a few months later the war ended and the president we elected was shot in the head and replaced by the guy who the other side liked.

Dictators love to hold sham elections to give their governments an air of legitimacy. Putin did it. Saddam Hussein did it. Kim Jong Un did it. Hitler did it. Mussolini did it. Stalin did it. Heck in Cuba there has never been an official who was nominated for office that didn't win their election.... (mostly because they were the only ones allowed to run)

The more important question is why do we think a comedian who looks like he hasn't had a good night's sleep in 6 or 7 years wants to hold onto power in a country that has been ravaged by war? What benefit does it have for him?
 
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Putin’s economy is crumbling. I can almost guarantee you that such is why he is coming to the table now. If it wasn’t, he would continue to whittle away at Ukraine to gain all of its territory and refuse peace talks.

Negotiating when one side is on the ropes is very dumb. Giving them all of their demands when they’re the ones who asked for peace talks is even dumber.

Lifting sanctions so as to encourage more of this behavior is monumentally dumb.

Almost as if it were all being done by someone who would lose money running a Casino

#TrumpSurrenders
You’re one of the few people who believe Ukraine gains in negotiating position as time goes by. Ukraine will lose more territory this spring and summer. Territory they will likely never get back. Long term does not favor Ukraine. They are losing the war
 
You’re one of the few people who believe Ukraine gains in negotiating position as time goes by. Ukraine will lose more territory this spring and summer. Territory they will likely never get back. Long term does not favor Ukraine. They are losing the war
Putin is only winning because he's pouring money and people into the meat grinder. Heck he's been trying to get soldiers to fight for him from every backwater in Africa, the middle east and North Korea. It's estimated that his liquid reserve assets will dry up by the fall.


Are you really trying to tell me that Russia, all by itself is able to overcome the combined war economies of all of Europe and the USA? If that's the case, then we might as well close up shop right now and start learning Russian.

His electricity costs have risen 250%. His interest rates are at 21%. His inflation is at 9%. He's spending 40% of his budget on Ukraine yearly. He's lost 3/4 of the Gazprom pipelines. $600 Bn of his foreign currency reserves are frozen in our banks. He's having to pay his troops 4x the average Russian salary in many provinces.

 
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Putin is only winning because he's pouring money and people into the meat grinder. Heck he's been trying to get soldiers to fight for him from every backwater in Africa, the middle east and North Korea. It's estimated that his liquid reserve assets will dry up by the fall.


Are you really trying to tell me that Russia, all by itself is able to overcome the combined war economies of all of Europe and the USA? If that's the case, then we might as well close up shop right now and start learning Russian.

His electricity costs have risen 250%. His interest rates are at 21%. His inflation is at 9%. He's spending 40% of his budget on Ukraine yearly. He's lost 3/4 of the Gazprom pipelines. $600 Bn of his foreign currency reserves are frozen in our banks. He's having to pay his troops 4x the average Russian salary in many provinces.

Russia doesn’t have to overcome the combine war economies of NATO countries because we aren’t operating under war economies nor are we contributed those type of resources towards the proxy war. Now if we would begin a war economy and contribute those resources to the war we would quickly overcome Russia as long as NATO troops are utilized. Ukraine is running short of fighting age able bodied men. We will see what this spring holds as far as territory gains by either party. Ukraine’s losses will increase if they attack fortified Russian positions in efforts to regain lost territory. I’m not optimistic they have the manpower to withstand such losses
 
Pearl Harbor? Kind of?
Not really applicable. That was a single event on our only island state to provoke us into war. That happened before we entered the war, and it happened nowhere close to an election. The main thing is it was not sustained, and killed very few of our men and it did not put large areas into danger and/or occupation during the war and also during times around the election. The shores of our country were not in danger.
 
I think we are all in agreement that right now is probably not the optimal time for an election in Ukraine.
 
My bold prediction….. we will discover Zelensky has pocketed millions and millions of dollars from this war.

I would like to see an election within the next year btw.
 
#TrumpSurrenders
#Backstabber
#Loser

(Russia to publicly declare “victory” over Ukraine / NATO in a few days)
 
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My bold prediction….. we will discover Zelensky has pocketed millions and millions of dollars from this war.

I would like to see an election within the next year btw.
I think it’s more likely you find Trump embezzled billions.
 
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