I'm a little behind on what we are using over there. I thought we were just adding ATACMs over there. I didn't realize that himars is being jammed frequently by Russia, and it has become ineffective. I don't know if they have completely eliminated their use over there. But they either switched or are in the midst of switching to ATACMs. That was something I didn't realize until just now.
Ukraine….what’s our endgame here
- Thread starter lawpoke87
- Start date
We also have Patriot Air Defense systems over there. I don't know how sophisticated and numerous our air defense systems are over there, but we have supplied it in one fashion or another.
What escalation? It is hilarious.
The Russians just send endless glide bombs and 1000-mile cruise missiles into Ukraine, and then when they send a cruise missile back, they call it escalation.
The Russians lob a medium to intermediate ballistic missile, and everyone is
ting themselves like the Russians launched a nuclear-capable weapon. News flash: they have been lobbying nuclear-capable weapons virtually this whole war. The amount of stupidity in how this war has been talked about is pretty sad. Biden has been around since the Cold War. He understands the Russians and Vladimir Putin. He has seen his BS since starting in Chechyna, Georgia, Ukraine. It is sad to me that people on the right never talk about the Orange Revolution, Victor Yanukovych and Viktor Yushchenko, the Revolution of Dignity. People don't understand how Yanukovych bilked the country for billions personally while allied with Russia, and the Russians tried to poison Yushchenko with Dioxin in 2004. This stuff goes way, way back and is much more complicated. All of this seems lost. In Nov 2013, Yanukovych (a Russian puppet) decided not to sign the EU-Ukraine Association agreement after their parliament overwhelmingly approved it. Protests broke out. They stayed for months. 100s were killed, and Yanukovych fled in the middle of the night. Feb 22 2014, taking with all these super expensive paintings and other belongings that he had amassed by bilking the Ukrainian treasury.
Guess who invaded crimea on Feb 27, 2014? War in the Donbas broke out in April?
But if I listen to that sniffling little bitch Vivek Ramasamay. It is all the US's fault. The guy has zero clue.
I digress though.
My curiosity has always been about NATO's red line. When do the Europeans start with a bare minimum, start an air war, and then move on to putting troops in the theatre? Lots and lots of troops have moved into Poland, Romania, and the Baltics from all the NATO countries. They are just waiting for the word and will start pounding them into oblivion.
lol. Europe isn’t going to start an air war or put boots on the ground. They understand such an action would quickly escalate into a widespread conflict across Europe. Ain’t going to happen. Europe wants peace and will quietly back a peace accord in the next 6 months. Sit back and watch which one of us is correct.What escalation? It is hilarious.
The Russians just send endless glide bombs and 1000-mile cruise missiles into Ukraine, and then when they send a cruise missile back, they call it escalation.
The Russians lob a medium to intermediate ballistic missile, and everyone is
The amount of stupidity in how this war has been talked about is pretty sad. Biden has been around since the Cold War. He understands the Russians and Vladimir Putin. He has seen his BS since starting in Chechyna, Georgia, Ukraine. It is sad to me that people on the right never talk about the Orange Revolution, Victor Yanukovych and Viktor Yushchenko, the Revolution of Dignity. People don't understand how Yanukovych bilked the country for billions personally while allied with Russia, and the Russians tried to poison Yushchenko with Dioxin in 2004. This stuff goes way, way back and is much more complicated. All of this seems lost. In Nov 2013, Yanukovych (a Russian puppet) decided not to sign the EU-Ukraine Association agreement after their parliament overwhelmingly approved it. Protests broke out. They stayed for months. 100s were killed, and Yanukovych fled in the middle of the night. Feb 22 2014, taking with all these super expensive paintings and other belongings that he had amassed by bilking the Ukrainian treasury.
Guess who invaded crimea on Feb 27, 2014? War in the Donbas broke out in April?
But if I listen to that sniffling little bitch Vivek Ramasamay. It is all the US's fault. The guy has zero clue.
I digress though.
My curiosity has always been about NATO's red line. When do the Europeans start with a bare minimum, start an air war, and then move on to putting troops in the theatre? Lots and lots of troops have moved into Poland, Romania, and the Baltics from all the NATO countries. They are just waiting for the word and will start pounding them into oblivion.
Do you believe that the Russians are capable of such a thing? It is hilarious to me what people think this country is capable of. A government virtually annihilated their Black Sea fleet with virtually no navy. Russia would lose its northern baltic fleet in days just like Iran did in the 1980s. They have not even faced militaries with real air power and air defence, let alone navies. Ukrainian mechanized divisions are nothing compared to what they would be facing. Now, they have brought Finland and Sweden into the fold. Sweden produces some great, great defence weaponry.
I don't think people realize just how enormous NATO's combined air power is. It would be nasty.
Would some people die? Sure. Would a lot more Russians die? Yup. Russia would lose Kaliningrad, and they would have no warm weather port other than on the black sea. The Turks would probably love to have Crimea. They have a long history of ruling crimea for hundreds and hundreds of years. The Russians and the Ottoman Empire have traded that back and forth for centuries. I mean, Putin is all about history and stuff, right? The poles have ruled Kaliningrad, too.
We have a bunch of peacenik faux badasses. It is Donald Trump junior types that like to dress up in tactical gear, wear camo, fire guns, snort cocaine and cry about freedom but don't know what any of that means. They want this country to be totally insular and build everything here, but eventually, they are just going to give up control of it to every country in the world. Putin and Xi will realize that between Afghanistan and Ukraine, the Trumps have no stomach for the long game and are billionaire hippy faux badasses.
The problem with Nato attacking Russia, is that this would probably bring the whole evil axis into the war. N Korea, Hungary, Iran, Syria, Belarus, & China, would likely not stand by while Nato attacked Russia. Then other states might pick a side, like Turkey, India, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, etc. That's what holds Nato back from getting involved in a direct conflict.
Putin can withstand missiles raining down on Russian cities. The thought of places like London, Paris, Berlin, etc…being hit is something the leaders of those countries cannot stomach. The last thing Europe wants is a widespread war in the European theater. NATO would win but at a huge price. Thus….those European leaders will remain on the sidelines and quietly push for peace.
What makes one thing that China enters the conflict? Please define china’s interest. They have stopped taking Russian payments.
It is too funny to listen to this crap. The Chinese want American and European markets more than the Russians. That is 600 million wealthy people to sell to vs russia’s 120 million and ever declining. So many Russians are dirt poor too.
China actually has wanted eastern Russian property for a very long time. They had a heavily armed border and the treaty of Peking is an absolute embarrassment to Chinese hardliners to this day.
This is essentially true. Add in China’s demographics means they have to either create millions of jobs every year or export them to foreign development corporations or have a whole bunch of military aged males unemployed and nobody to marry wandering around the country. Not an optimal situation for an authoritarian regime and planned economy in recession. They want to export jobs/men to western countries/developing countries and expand their economic influence, not get footsy with Russians.
Every point you & TulsaRulz are making is valid. I just think in the balance of things, seeing one of their most powerful allies probably losing against the western alliance of Nato might get them involved. Russia possibly becoming a less powerful ally might be enough for them to decide to prop up Russia, and help maintain the strength of the east. All the countries they are allied with are weak individually. They probably don't want any one of them to become weaker, such that if a WW breaks out, it's not China vs World. It may not be a massive risk, but I do think it is a risk Nato wants to avoid, if possible. Maybe it's not a 50/50 decision, but I bet this decision is considered.
The Chinese think in terms of centuries. They aren’t thinking a lot about this conflict except how to profit from it.
I mean, that's kind of reductionist. Were they thinking in terms of centuries during Korea? How about when they fomented Vietnam? China has its own international interests, and all they do is not simply about profit, nor do they only think about a short or long term.
They are interested in spreading influence and gaining advantage over other nations, and are particularly interested if that control comes to the disadvantage of competing superpowers like the US or India.
This. No country can plan out centuries. It sounds nice but the world is a very complicated place. Technology, war, disease, disasters, government regimes radically change things.
The Vietnamese friggin hate the Chinese and have been fighting them for 1000s of years. Hell they even fought it out after we left Vietnam and the Vietnamese decided to invade Cambodia. Border skirmishes continued on even through the 1990s.
Why do you think a weak Russia is bad for China? The Russians have zero respect for their eastern citizens. Where do you think a lot of the military is being pulled from ? The Chinese would love to have back eastern Russia. It was theirs for a millennium. There are hardliners that talk about it all.the.time. They only started to stand down during Gorbachev. Russia is China's 6th or 7th largest trading partner. Russia has much more need for them than vice versa.
I assume it’s more of a negotiating posture but the US has now threatened to put boots on the ground in Ukraine.
www.yahoo.com
Vance says US has economic and military ‘tools of leverage’ if Russia doesn’t push for peace with Ukraine, WSJ reports
Vice President JD Vance warned on Thursday that the United States could send troops to Ukraine and hit Russia with further sanctions if Vladimir Putin doesn’t negotiate a peace deal in good faith.
The people who hate Russians today are no different than the white settlers (supposedly) hating blacks 200 years ago. They ought to be our ally, a staunch one at that!
Awesome… why threaten that to just get them to the negotiation table. Threaten that to get them off the Black Sea for good.I assume it’s more of a negotiating posture but the US has now threatened to put boots on the ground in Ukraine.
Vance says US has economic and military ‘tools of leverage’ if Russia doesn’t push for peace with Ukraine, WSJ reports
Vice President JD Vance warned on Thursday that the United States could send troops to Ukraine and hit Russia with further sanctions if Vladimir Putin doesn’t negotiate a peace deal in good faith.
Putin is driving this bus. He’s ready to consolidate his holdings and Trump is working with (for?) him to allow it.
How sad is it that I asked the question which is the title of this thread almost 3 years ago. After 800,000 casualties we still haven’t stated a clear answer or plan to achieve the same. Meanwhile, Ukraine is losing the war with no turnaround insight absent NATO boots on the ground. Simply a disaster from a foreign policy, humanitarian, and wasted money standpoint.
Ukraine has fended off a (former) global superpower 3 times its size for years with fairly minuscule aide. A war they had no business contending in.
We’re now in the process of stabbing them, true defenders of freedom and democracy, in the back because people like you talk about wasted money.
You only support fighting wars where the other side isn’t capable of actually fighting back. In my book that’s cowardice. So is letting a dictator who illegally took land back into a world economic forum. Neville Chamberlain would be embarrassed for Trump.
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Your definition of “cowardice” is grossly incorrect. Cowardice is not providing a friend the military assets and support necessary to prevent its superpower neighbor from overrunning its border and seizing its natural resource rich land. Cowardice is fighting a proxy war where we suffer no loss of life while our friend suffers hundreds of thousands of deaths with no end in sight. Cowardice is not providing our friend with sufficient military resources to win this fight. Only enough to keep the killing ongoing indefinitely. Cowardice is having no endgame plan. Fighting proxy wars are easy. Just give a country money and weapons and watch the killing.
My question I started with in this thread almost three years ago is still valid AND unanswered. What is our endgame and how do we achieve it? Cowardly sitting back on watching people kill each other is not an endgame btw
I’m still waiting on a single poster to provide a reasonable response.
Apparently our endgame under Donald Trump is complete capitulation to Vladimir Putin and every one of his major war goals including weakening NATO in support of future conflicts in the Baltics.
Cowardice is blowing little brown kids up in the desert from a thousand miles away in an office chair and then when someone tells you to actually stand up for the beliefs of freedom that you shouted from every hilltop while killing thousands of other brown kids, you not only back down, but betray the people actually fighting. It’s making the sacrifices of thousands of brave souls essentially meaningless.
Benedict Arnold.
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Actually cowardice is giving my buddy the missile and having him blow people up so I can wash my hands of the responsibility. But only enough missiles to ensure the killing continues on both sides.
Still waiting on a plan to achieve an endgame acceptable to those people who seem to want an endless war with endless loss of human life. I’ve asked for three years….still crickets. Waiting Waiting Waiting
Boots.on.the.ground.
Time to call Putin’s bluff. I’ll meet you in Kyiv. Time to put up or shut up about this whole freedom and democracy thing.
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Appreciate the answer. I haven’t seen much support in Europe or here in the US for a ground war with Russia. Doesn’t appear at least for now to be a viable alternative.
"I think I have the power to end this war, and I think it's going very well. But today I heard, 'Oh, well, we weren't invited.' Well, you've been there for three years," Trump told reporters at his Mar-a-Lago resort. "You should have never started it. You could have made a deal."
Now Trump is accusing Ukraine of attacking themselves.
Seriously, he is working for Vladamir Putin. Full stop. Not America.... not himself.... Putin.
Now Trump is accusing Ukraine of attacking themselves.
Seriously, he is working for Vladamir Putin. Full stop. Not America.... not himself.... Putin.
I am with you. There has to be an endgame. That endgame has to be a demand that Putin stop shooting and get out. Then we can talk about next steps.
He is the world's biggest terrorist, kidnapping children and blowing up schools, hospitals and churches. It is pretty sad to read Twitter and see just how much people get it atrociously wrong.
Rubio is going to forever ruin his legacy hanging around Trump. He should resign now. Trump has no plan. Now, they are complying with Russia's demand that Ukraine hold elections. ARE YOU FRIGGIN KIDDING ME? How about the US monitor Russian elections? There is ZERO free speech in Russia, but JD Vance clatters about the EU. It is totally nuts. You mention the word war. You go to jail
I think there is some weird hope that they can use this to peel Russia away from China. That is insane.
Marco Rubio used to write letters to the Biden administration about the GRU attacking American citizens, and now he is having to go to Saudi Arabia and act like they are old chums.
It is insane that they are viewing the EU as an adversary. They are the ones who bleed with us, share intelligence with us, buy our stuff and work with us militarily. It is a pretty sad state of affairs for the orange blob and the ones toeing the line. I think the ones towing the line are even worse because they know better. Trump must be being promised a hotel in Moscow or Saint Petersburg.
It is weird that Trump thinks he is the supreme actor here. That he is the one to negotiate peace without Europe or Ukraine. Europe has donated more cash, spent more time, and taken bigger risks. He is totally delusional. They could easily just tell Trump to take any peace deal and shove it up his ass because he is a naive SOB who is totally ignorant of history and a huge liar.
As a result, Trump will get angry and pull all of American troops out of Europe and us out of NATO. Then when we need naval and air bases to do stuff in the Middle East, the Euros should tell us to screw off. Fox News will say this is the most incredible day in history, and Elon will use Twitter to clatter on about how Trump is the most brilliant man in history.
Putin and the Presidents (full documentary) | FRONTLINE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJI8XTa_DII&pp=ygUFI3Bic18=YouTube · FRONTLINE PBS | Official
14.9M+ views · 2 years ago
Europe and Ukraine can completely ignore whatever comes out of the Trump - Putin talks anc continue the war for years to come. Ukraine will continue to slowly lose and be in a worse negotiating position as time passes but this war is a Europe war and those in Europe should have the final say imo. I would like to see Trump step aside and allow Europe to handle Europe. Let them end this war.
Europe isn’t willing to fight a ground war against Russia. They also seem to ignore the reality that Ukraine can’t win this war without western boots on the ground. They have no plan to win the war. Only one to continue the bloodshed as Ukraine is depleted of able bodied fighting men. Has Europe set forth a plan to end the killing?
Europe isn’t willing to fight a ground war against Russia. They also seem to ignore the reality that Ukraine can’t win this war without western boots on the ground. They have no plan to win the war. Only one to continue the bloodshed as Ukraine is depleted of able bodied fighting men. Has Europe set forth a plan to end the killing?
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