I'm a little behind on what we are using over there. I thought we were just adding ATACMs over there. I didn't realize that himars is being jammed frequently by Russia, and it has become ineffective. I don't know if they have completely eliminated their use over there. But they either switched or are in the midst of switching to ATACMs. That was something I didn't realize until just now.
Ukraine….what’s our endgame here
- Thread starter lawpoke87
- Start date
We also have Patriot Air Defense systems over there. I don't know how sophisticated and numerous our air defense systems are over there, but we have supplied it in one fashion or another.
What escalation? It is hilarious.
The Russians just send endless glide bombs and 1000-mile cruise missiles into Ukraine, and then when they send a cruise missile back, they call it escalation.
The Russians lob a medium to intermediate ballistic missile, and everyone is
ting themselves like the Russians launched a nuclear-capable weapon. News flash: they have been lobbying nuclear-capable weapons virtually this whole war. The amount of stupidity in how this war has been talked about is pretty sad. Biden has been around since the Cold War. He understands the Russians and Vladimir Putin. He has seen his BS since starting in Chechyna, Georgia, Ukraine. It is sad to me that people on the right never talk about the Orange Revolution, Victor Yanukovych and Viktor Yushchenko, the Revolution of Dignity. People don't understand how Yanukovych bilked the country for billions personally while allied with Russia, and the Russians tried to poison Yushchenko with Dioxin in 2004. This stuff goes way, way back and is much more complicated. All of this seems lost. In Nov 2013, Yanukovych (a Russian puppet) decided not to sign the EU-Ukraine Association agreement after their parliament overwhelmingly approved it. Protests broke out. They stayed for months. 100s were killed, and Yanukovych fled in the middle of the night. Feb 22 2014, taking with all these super expensive paintings and other belongings that he had amassed by bilking the Ukrainian treasury.
Guess who invaded crimea on Feb 27, 2014? War in the Donbas broke out in April?
But if I listen to that sniffling little bitch Vivek Ramasamay. It is all the US's fault. The guy has zero clue.
I digress though.
My curiosity has always been about NATO's red line. When do the Europeans start with a bare minimum, start an air war, and then move on to putting troops in the theatre? Lots and lots of troops have moved into Poland, Romania, and the Baltics from all the NATO countries. They are just waiting for the word and will start pounding them into oblivion.
lol. Europe isn’t going to start an air war or put boots on the ground. They understand such an action would quickly escalate into a widespread conflict across Europe. Ain’t going to happen. Europe wants peace and will quietly back a peace accord in the next 6 months. Sit back and watch which one of us is correct.What escalation? It is hilarious.
The Russians just send endless glide bombs and 1000-mile cruise missiles into Ukraine, and then when they send a cruise missile back, they call it escalation.
The Russians lob a medium to intermediate ballistic missile, and everyone is
The amount of stupidity in how this war has been talked about is pretty sad. Biden has been around since the Cold War. He understands the Russians and Vladimir Putin. He has seen his BS since starting in Chechyna, Georgia, Ukraine. It is sad to me that people on the right never talk about the Orange Revolution, Victor Yanukovych and Viktor Yushchenko, the Revolution of Dignity. People don't understand how Yanukovych bilked the country for billions personally while allied with Russia, and the Russians tried to poison Yushchenko with Dioxin in 2004. This stuff goes way, way back and is much more complicated. All of this seems lost. In Nov 2013, Yanukovych (a Russian puppet) decided not to sign the EU-Ukraine Association agreement after their parliament overwhelmingly approved it. Protests broke out. They stayed for months. 100s were killed, and Yanukovych fled in the middle of the night. Feb 22 2014, taking with all these super expensive paintings and other belongings that he had amassed by bilking the Ukrainian treasury.
Guess who invaded crimea on Feb 27, 2014? War in the Donbas broke out in April?
But if I listen to that sniffling little bitch Vivek Ramasamay. It is all the US's fault. The guy has zero clue.
I digress though.
My curiosity has always been about NATO's red line. When do the Europeans start with a bare minimum, start an air war, and then move on to putting troops in the theatre? Lots and lots of troops have moved into Poland, Romania, and the Baltics from all the NATO countries. They are just waiting for the word and will start pounding them into oblivion.
Do you believe that the Russians are capable of such a thing? It is hilarious to me what people think this country is capable of. A government virtually annihilated their Black Sea fleet with virtually no navy. Russia would lose its northern baltic fleet in days just like Iran did in the 1980s. They have not even faced militaries with real air power and air defence, let alone navies. Ukrainian mechanized divisions are nothing compared to what they would be facing. Now, they have brought Finland and Sweden into the fold. Sweden produces some great, great defence weaponry.
I don't think people realize just how enormous NATO's combined air power is. It would be nasty.
Would some people die? Sure. Would a lot more Russians die? Yup. Russia would lose Kaliningrad, and they would have no warm weather port other than on the black sea. The Turks would probably love to have Crimea. They have a long history of ruling crimea for hundreds and hundreds of years. The Russians and the Ottoman Empire have traded that back and forth for centuries. I mean, Putin is all about history and stuff, right? The poles have ruled Kaliningrad, too.
We have a bunch of peacenik faux badasses. It is Donald Trump junior types that like to dress up in tactical gear, wear camo, fire guns, snort cocaine and cry about freedom but don't know what any of that means. They want this country to be totally insular and build everything here, but eventually, they are just going to give up control of it to every country in the world. Putin and Xi will realize that between Afghanistan and Ukraine, the Trumps have no stomach for the long game and are billionaire hippy faux badasses.
The problem with Nato attacking Russia, is that this would probably bring the whole evil axis into the war. N Korea, Hungary, Iran, Syria, Belarus, & China, would likely not stand by while Nato attacked Russia. Then other states might pick a side, like Turkey, India, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, etc. That's what holds Nato back from getting involved in a direct conflict.
Putin can withstand missiles raining down on Russian cities. The thought of places like London, Paris, Berlin, etc…being hit is something the leaders of those countries cannot stomach. The last thing Europe wants is a widespread war in the European theater. NATO would win but at a huge price. Thus….those European leaders will remain on the sidelines and quietly push for peace.
What makes one thing that China enters the conflict? Please define china’s interest. They have stopped taking Russian payments.
It is too funny to listen to this crap. The Chinese want American and European markets more than the Russians. That is 600 million wealthy people to sell to vs russia’s 120 million and ever declining. So many Russians are dirt poor too.
China actually has wanted eastern Russian property for a very long time. They had a heavily armed border and the treaty of Peking is an absolute embarrassment to Chinese hardliners to this day.
This is essentially true. Add in China’s demographics means they have to either create millions of jobs every year or export them to foreign development corporations or have a whole bunch of military aged males unemployed and nobody to marry wandering around the country. Not an optimal situation for an authoritarian regime and planned economy in recession. They want to export jobs/men to western countries/developing countries and expand their economic influence, not get footsy with Russians.
Every point you & TulsaRulz are making is valid. I just think in the balance of things, seeing one of their most powerful allies probably losing against the western alliance of Nato might get them involved. Russia possibly becoming a less powerful ally might be enough for them to decide to prop up Russia, and help maintain the strength of the east. All the countries they are allied with are weak individually. They probably don't want any one of them to become weaker, such that if a WW breaks out, it's not China vs World. It may not be a massive risk, but I do think it is a risk Nato wants to avoid, if possible. Maybe it's not a 50/50 decision, but I bet this decision is considered.
The Chinese think in terms of centuries. They aren’t thinking a lot about this conflict except how to profit from it.
I mean, that's kind of reductionist. Were they thinking in terms of centuries during Korea? How about when they fomented Vietnam? China has its own international interests, and all they do is not simply about profit, nor do they only think about a short or long term.
They are interested in spreading influence and gaining advantage over other nations, and are particularly interested if that control comes to the disadvantage of competing superpowers like the US or India.
This. No country can plan out centuries. It sounds nice but the world is a very complicated place. Technology, war, disease, disasters, government regimes radically change things.
The Vietnamese friggin hate the Chinese and have been fighting them for 1000s of years. Hell they even fought it out after we left Vietnam and the Vietnamese decided to invade Cambodia. Border skirmishes continued on even through the 1990s.
Why do you think a weak Russia is bad for China? The Russians have zero respect for their eastern citizens. Where do you think a lot of the military is being pulled from ? The Chinese would love to have back eastern Russia. It was theirs for a millennium. There are hardliners that talk about it all.the.time. They only started to stand down during Gorbachev. Russia is China's 6th or 7th largest trading partner. Russia has much more need for them than vice versa.
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