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Trump conviction

TulsaRulzOSUdrools

I.T.S. Sophomore
May 1, 2007
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The stage is set for one of the biggest jury deliberations in the history of our country ?

Reading through the updates it sounds like trump's lawyer did not do a bang up job.
 


Based on the Judge’s jury instructions it would be very difficult for Trump not to be convicted of some of the charges. I’ve never seen these kind of instructions in a criminal trial nor have I ever seen a judge refuse to give the jury written instructions when the instructions are this long and complex. Weird stuff.
 
no, I just wondered what law he violated.
You can read about what law he is accused of violating in 100's of articles, so why are you questioning the board. You act as if you are still ignorant of it, despite the information being all around you. Troll or idiot. It's easily accessible. Forbes does it quite clearly in their very easily found article titled "Here are the Election Laws and Tax Laws Trump is Accused of Breaking in NY Case." Your google search could have been nearly word for word, the title of that article.

 
New York law prohibits written jury instructions in the jury room. It’s a dated policy but not without justification. Federal rules require them to go back, There’s a lot of uppity federal guys on TV complaining about this, but it’s really them assuming the federal rules are better because they are federal guys and have been told since birth they are better than the schmucks in state court.

The biggest problem they have is that even if they prove it, all he has been found guilty of is the felony crime of conspiracy to commit a misdemeanor in service of committing another misdemeanor. Which has been found to be unconstitutional unless it’s a series of misdemeanors for a felonious purpose. No evidence of that in this case. And in any event, that’s a RICO crime not charged in the indictment.

This whole trial is an embarrassment to the United States justice system.
 


Based on the Judge’s jury instructions it would be very difficult for Trump not to be convicted of some of the charges. I’ve never seen these kind of instructions in a criminal trial nor have I ever seen a judge refuse to give the jury written instructions when the instructions are this long and complex. Weird stuff.
That's a bit bizarre. If the various jury members believe him guilty of one crime or another, then he is going to have them polled circumstantially to convict him of the crimes? Meaning if one convicts him of part of the circumstance on circumstantial evidence, and another convicts him of another part of the circumstance, as long as he is guilty by one juror or another of all of the circumstances that need to be proven, and those jurors = 12, then he is guilty?

That sounds like grounds for appeal. I wouldn't want a conviction like that to have to hold water with the public.
 
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Honestly I thought the judge played things rather fairly during the trial and he dealt with Trump’s public harassment quite civilly.

Not going to comment on the nature of the case itself, but don’t you think it was a poor strategy to let Trump sleep throughout the trial? Certainly doesn’t win you points with Jurors.
 
Honestly I thought the judge played things rather fairly during the trial and he dealt with Trump’s public harassment quite civilly.

Not going to comment on the nature of the case itself, but don’t you think it was a poor strategy to let Trump sleep throughout the trial? Certainly doesn’t win you points with Jurors.
It’s a New York jury. Don’t think it matters what he did or didn’t do during the trial.
 
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It’s a New York jury. Don’t think it matters what he did or didn’t do during the trial.
There are still republicans in NY and the defense did get the opportunity to go through the selection process. Trump only had to convince 1/12….. ultimately he convinced none. Also, NYNY is his home town. It’s not like he was being tried in Hawaii.

I don’t think his antics helped him. They could very well make things worse for him upon sentencing as well…

Imagine if Merchan scheduled the sentencing for day of, or a couple days prior to Election Day…..

Honestly, there are enough unknowns now that I think it is risky for Trump to be given the nomination by the RNC….
 
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There are still republicans in NY and the defense did get the opportunity to go through the selection process. Trump only had to convince 1/12….. ultimately he convinced none. Also, NYNY is his home town. It’s not like he was being tried in Hawaii.

I don’t think his antics helped him. They could very well make things worse for him upon sentencing as well…
Didn’t the NY DA campaign on the promise to prosecute Trump? His antics certainly weren’t a positive but NY is anything but a positive place for Trump and the legal system. See the fine he received for inflating the value of real estate on a loan which didn’t go into default.

Curious to see what occurs on appeal given the legal theory which the case was brought.
 
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Didn’t the NY DA campaign on the promise to prosecute Trump? His antics certainly weren’t a positive but NY is anything but a positive place for Trump and the legal system. See the fine he received for inflating the value of real estate on a loan which didn’t go into default.

Curious to see what occurs on appeal given the legal theory which the case was brought.
Why does promising to prosecute someone who was ultimately found to have committed a crime matter?

Its almost as if when a criminal and a liar isn’t tried with co-conspirators on the jury (senate) he tends to have his ass handed to him in both civil and criminal trials.
 
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Based on the Judge’s jury instructions it would be very difficult for Trump not to be convicted of some of the charges. I’ve never seen these kind of instructions in a criminal trial nor have I ever seen a judge refuse to give the jury written instructions when the instructions are this long and complex. Weird stuff.
so if 8 are for not quilty, the minority still win?
I don't understand.
 
Why does promising to prosecute someone who was ultimately found to have committed a crime matter?

It’s almost as if when a criminal and a liar isn’t tried with co-conspirators on the jury (senate) he tends to have his ass handed to him in both civil and criminal trials.
Because it was political and based on no known wrong doing at the time the promise was made. I know of no other situation where the government has gone after a businessman for over stating an asset on a loan app of a loan which never went into default. A loan which the lender was fine with the valuation and stated they would make the loan again. If I’m wrong please correct me.

I likewise know of no other criminal cases where multiple felony charges were brought against an individual for a misdemeanor offense of misstating a business expense.’ Again…if I’m incorrect please correct me.

Using the legal system for political gain against one’s enemies is a hell of a dangerous precedent. One which is sure to further divide this country.
 
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Because it was political and based on no known wrong doing at the time the promise was made. I know of no other situation where the government has gone after a businessman for over stating an asset on a loan app of a loan which never went into default. A loan which the lender was fine with the valuation and stated they would make the loan again. If I’m wrong please correct me.

I likewise know of no other criminal cases where multiple felony charges were brought against an individual for a misdemeanor offense of misstating a business expense.’ Again…if I’m incorrect please correct me.

Using the legal system for political gain against one’s enemies is a hell of a dangerous precedent. One which is sure to further divide this country.
You’re completely right. Using the legal system for political gain is unseemly….
Care to explain to me why Trump wasn’t already behind bars for trying to overthrow our Republic?

Don’t worry. I’ll wait.
 
You’re completely right. Using the legal system for political gain is unseemly….
Care to explain to me why Trump wasn’t already behind bars for trying to overthrow our Republic?

Don’t worry. I’ll wait.
I’ll go with because the Justice Dept doesn’t believe they have a winnable case. Might ask Biden and Garland that question.

Glad we agree on the dangers of using the legal system for political gain
 
Ironic that today the U.S. Supreme Court reversed 9-0, Sotomoyer writing for seven justices, previous lower court decisions dismissing a lawsuit as groundless, where New York State government officials colluded with some, and pressured others, in the financial industry, to sever ties with the National Rifle Association based on the state officials disagreement with the content of the views of the NRA. The named defendant ran on a platform to “get” the NRA.

We live in dangerous times.
 
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Didn’t the NY DA campaign on the promise to prosecute Trump? His antics certainly weren’t a positive but NY is anything but a positive place for Trump and the legal system. See the fine he received for inflating the value of real estate on a loan which didn’t go into default.

Curious to see what occurs on appeal given the legal theory which the case was brought.
If the crime was a New York crime where else were they to try it? Oklahoma?
 
He will have his appeals as he should. I say let it play out. If the judge made errors that will be reviewed.

Nothing outrageous here. Just the system playing out.
 
He will have his appeals as he should. I say let it play out. If the judge made errors that will be reviewed.

Nothing outrageous here. Just the system playing out.
Simply bringing both the civil and criminal suits is fairly outrageous as both are unprecedented from what I’ve seen and were brought purely out of political motives. Much like the NY action the Supremes unanimously struck down today. Same State. Same motives. Same campaign promises.

Very dangerous times which are further dividing this country and eroding faith in our judicial system
 
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Based on the Judge’s jury instructions it would be very difficult for Trump not to be convicted of some of the charges. I’ve never seen these kind of instructions in a criminal trial nor have I ever seen a judge refuse to give the jury written instructions when the instructions are this long and complex. Weird stuff.
I didn't read beyond what headlined the tweet,(the original tweet) & did not click on it to even read the comments. That tweet was bogus and barely implied a partial truth if even that. Completely deceptive & false post. When I read the jury instructions that were linked by @HuffyCane, I found no grounds for appeal in the instructions, and no truth to what John Roberts posted.
 
I didn't read beyond what headlined the tweet,(the original tweet) & did not click on it to even read the comments. That tweet was bogus and barely implied a partial truth if even that. Completely deceptive & false post. When I read the jury instructions that were linked by @HuffyCane, I found no grounds for appeal in the instructions, and no truth to what John Roberts posted.
Agree. As Huffy stated the real grounds for appeal is the legal gymnastics of taking misdemeanors and clumping them into 34 felony charges. Again…not sure I’ve ever seen that. Do you believe this wasn’t a politically based prosecution?
 
I am not a lawyer and not really interested in becoming one. Don't want to analyze the legal angles. He had a trial and lost it. if it was unfair, it will come out on appeal.

I wish none of it had happened at all. Neither his behavior nor the trial nor his presidency. None of it. Wish it all could disappear.
 
If there was no consequence to Trump breaking the law that he broke, then why did Trump break the law in the first place. If nobody in the public cared then why didn't Trump let Stormy Daniels story break normally instead of conspiring to cover it up, later on paying for the cover up, and attempting to cover his tracks in paying for it.

Even if it didn't need to be done, Nixon was evicted for a similar type crime, that really wasn't necessary for Nixon to commit. People weren't tripping over themselves to defend Nixon. They shouldn't be tripping over themselves to defend Trump. Can't believe so many Republicans keep tripping over themselves to defend the man.
 
Agree. As Huffy stated the real grounds for appeal is the legal gymnastics of taking misdemeanors and clumping them into 34 felony charges. Again…not sure I’ve ever seen that. Do you believe this wasn’t a politically based prosecution?
The charges in themselves are misdemeanors. The felony comes when those charges are committed to cover up something of consequence.(say in the campaign to be leader of our land) He should have let the stories break, or not covered up that he paid to can the story. The next time this happens, it may be something that would have affected the campaign's success. Covering something up should not be allowed, whether it affects the campaign or not.
 
The charges in themselves are misdemeanors. The felony comes when those charges are committed to cover up something of consequence.(say in the campaign to be leader of our land) He should have let the stories break, or not covered up that he paid to can the story. The next time this happens, it may be something that would have affected the campaign's success. Covering something up should not be allowed, whether it affects the campaign or not.
Show me a single instance where multiple felonies were charged related to underlying misdemeanors? Same as to the state bringing a civil suit related to collateral on a performing loan? Unfortunately, Nee York as a history of using the legal system against political opponents. Not a place I would reside or do business if I’m a conservative.

Bringing these type of political motivating suits does nothing but further divides our country. It’s a very dangerous precedent

What criminal charges has NY brought agaisnt Cohan for stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from Trump ? A crime which is actually a felony on its face
 
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The charges in themselves are misdemeanors. The felony comes when those charges are committed to cover up something of consequence.(say in the campaign to be leader of our land) He should have let the stories break, or not covered up that he paid to can the story. The next time this happens, it may be something that would have affected the campaign's success. Covering something up should not be allowed, whether it affects the campaign or not.
Are misdemeanors OK? Recent ones by a presidential candidate?

As someone whose only experience with our judicial or criminal justice system is as a juror, I would say no. Misdemeanors are atrocious too. It's all sickening. It is splitting hairs as far as judging his character (and, accordingly, standing up for him).
 
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New York law prohibits written jury instructions in the jury room. It’s a dated policy but not without justification. Federal rules require them to go back, There’s a lot of uppity federal guys on TV complaining about this, but it’s really them assuming the federal rules are better because they are federal guys and have been told since birth they are better than the schmucks in state court.

The biggest problem they have is that even if they prove it, all he has been found guilty of is the felony crime of conspiracy to commit a misdemeanor in service of committing another misdemeanor. Which has been found to be unconstitutional unless it’s a series of misdemeanors for a felonious purpose. No evidence of that in this case. And in any event, that’s a RICO crime not charged in the indictment.

This whole trial is an embarrassment to the United States justice system.
No it’s not.
 
Show me a single instance where multiple felonies were charged related to underlying misdemeanors? Same as to the state bringing a civil suit related to collateral on a performing loan? Unfortunately, Nee York as a history of using the legal system against political opponents. Not a place I would reside or do business if I’m a conservative.

Bringing these type of political motivating suits does nothing but further divides our country. It’s a very dangerous precedent

What criminal charges has NY brought agaisnt Cohan for stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from Trump ? A crime which is actually a felony on its face
This wreaks of sour grapes… and continuing to buy into the lies that a grifter / conman and his allies are feeding you.

How much smoke do you need to see before you finally are willing to call it a fire?

Even if he won his appeal…. Knowing all we know about his personal conduct, the low character of the people with whom he surrounds himself and how poorly his organization operated... Is that really the person you want representing you as the most powerful office holder in the land?

It’s time to grow a conscience.
 
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Curious to see what occurs on appeal given the legal theory which the case was brought.
It will be interesting. As you know, jurors find the facts in the case and it’s next to impossible for appellate judges to set those aside or change them. In a criminal context, appeals are typically about errors in procedure or application of the facts. But as the appellate record is compiled, it’s inevitable that folks on the street skeptical of all of this stuff who dislike both candidates will hear what the jury found as fact and probably distrust our institutions even more.

One of the more comical parts of this case is how Cohen was still using billing software from the mid-90’s despite charging clients hundreds of thousands of dollars for routine legal work with very little heavy lifting. The program is Netscape/Alta Vista era technology. The software had drop down menus where the user could select various descriptions of the charges, but you only had like 4 choices. One of them was “Legal Expenses.” The jury found for one of the counts that Trump knew when Cohen entered that entry by selecting that from the drop down menu that Cohen had the intent to knowingly create through fraudulent means a false record to conceal another crime. As you know, you can’t prove fraud in a criminal context without direct evidence of specific intent to defraud. You can’t infer that from circumstances. You have to have direct evidence of that. Someone saying or better yet writing, I’m doing this because I know that I’m defrauding the other person for some kind of gain.

So in theory, and I’m simplifying for the audience here, in just about any other courtroom with any other defendant, you would need evidence that Trump knew when Cohen clicked on the box that said Legal Expenses, he did that to conceal the fact that they both knew it was a campaign expense and they were doing it for the purpose of evading campaign finance laws AND it’s in fact a crime to pay a woman to remain silent or deny she had sex with you. Not the reasonable doubt that neither knew campaign finance laws and they chose that drop down choice, not to conceal their felony, but because it was one of four choices and one or both thought at the time Trump was purchasing legal help to structure a legal settlement with an NDA clause.

Which they don’t have evidence of. They don’t really have evidence of Trump’s state of mind, except the testimony of a convicted felon who is facing further legal jeopardy and already received favorable treatment from prosecutors in exchange for his testimony. Trouble is, that testimony alone isn’t enough in a specific intent case. One person saying one thing and another denying it is the definition of reasonable doubt in a specific intent crime like fraud.

Which is basically why John Edwards was found not guilty on one count and a hung jury on others on very similar facts. That and he was tried in a district with a jury pool generally sympathetic to his political points of view. A trial called outrageous at the time by the same people saying folks shouldn’t be asking questions about why this case was brought today.

Just like CoVid, we had a lot of people on here call myself and lawpoke cranks for simply asking basic questions about why the government was doing what it was doing.

Like CoVid, I think as time elapses, the appeal will reveal that maybe those questions were well founded or maybe they weren’t, but either way they should have been allowed to be asked. We need to figure out why that happened and do more to stop it from happening in the future. Otherwise, it’s inevitable that someone is going to get convicted solely for what they believe. Someone you really do care about.
 
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Show me a single instance where multiple felonies were charged related to underlying misdemeanors? Same as to the state bringing a civil suit related to collateral on a performing loan? Unfortunately, Nee York as a history of using the legal system against political opponents. Not a place I would reside or do business if I’m a conservative.

Bringing these type of political motivating suits does nothing but further divides our country. It’s a very dangerous precedent

What criminal charges has NY brought against Cohen for stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from Trump? A crime which is actually a felony on its face
It sounds as if you have a problem with the laws as they were written. I have strong suspicion that there are a large # of states that have laws written as such. Laws who state that certain crimes in and of themselves are a misdemeanor, but with the proper motive and use of those misdemeanors, that they become felonies. I can easily see instances where this would be true. You should have access to case law, that you can much more easily look up laws of this nature than I can, as someone who has never been to law school and has no reason to have access to Lexis, Westlaw, Etc., etc.

The motive and use of committing those misdemeanors may be of less harm as an individual, than as a corporate businessman or a politician. They may use those misdemeanors to make more money off the backs of others, gain unfair advantage, embezzle, harm a competitor, win an election, break other laws with the result of what those misdemeanors cover up, etc. etc. If these laws were being applied to mafia, I doubt your arguments would be as vociferous.

They just found evidence of this in Cohen's testimony a week ago. So it's a little too early to be asking this. And this might be better suited to a lawsuit by Trump to regain those funds. And Cohen may have gotten immunity for the things his testimony might reveal in the New York trial. I know that's something I would have demanded if I were in Cohen's shoes.
 
It sounds as if you have a problem with the laws as they were written. I have strong suspicion that there are a large # of states that have laws written as such. Laws who state that certain crimes in and of themselves are a misdemeanor, but with the proper motive and use of those misdemeanors, that they become felonies. I can easily see instances where this would be true. You should have access to case law, that you can much more easily look up laws of this nature than I can, as someone who has never been to law school and has no reason to have access to Lexis, Westlaw, Etc., etc.

The motive and use of committing those misdemeanors may be of less harm as an individual, than as a corporate businessman or a politician. They may use those misdemeanors to make more money off the backs of others, gain unfair advantage, embezzle, harm a competitor, win an election, break other laws with the result of what those misdemeanors cover up, etc. etc. If these laws were being applied to mafia, I doubt your arguments would be as vociferous.

They just found evidence of this in Cohen's testimony a week ago. So it's a little too early to be asking this. And this might be better suited to a lawsuit by Trump to regain those funds. And Cohen may have gotten immunity for the things his testimony might reveal in the New York trial. I know that's something I would have demanded if I were in Cohen's shoes.
Thankfully, judges can’t create crimes through case law. Because prison is the penalty, only the legislature can establish what is a crime.

As stated above, a series of misdemeanors, and especially a conspiracy to commit them, alone, can’t create a felony except in one instance: RICO. Which you basically describe at the end of your message where you describe schemes to embezzle etc. But even then, you have to have proof of a larger scheme to defraud/improper purpose. It’s not enough to prove I skimmed a penny off every time a gas pump is used. You have to prove I did that in furtherance of some other felonious enterprise or design. Funding other mafia activities, a general pattern of lawless activity above that, etc. If all you can prove is a series of one penny petit thefts in an attempt to get rich, you don’t have RICO.

I will say that states are starting to expand this theory of liability beyond RICO. For instance, organized retail theft. The flashmob petit thefts where large groups of people are entering businesses and obviously avoiding stealing merchandise over the felony threshold and taking items under it. And doing this several times in a day, etc.

Courts have reluctantly found RICO constitutional in an effort to get the mob off the street. They likely will with the flash mob stuff, but beyond that, it’s of dubious constitutionality.
 
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Thankfully, judges can’t create crimes through case law. Because prison is the penalty, only the legislature can establish what is a crime.

As stated above, a series of misdemeanors, and especially a conspiracy to commit them, alone, can’t create a felony except in one instance: RICO. Which you basically describe at the end of your message where you describe schemes to embezzle etc. But even then, you have to have proof of a larger scheme to defraud/improper purpose. It’s not enough to prove I skimmed a penny off every time a gas pump is used. You have to prove I did that in furtherance of some other felonious enterprise or design. Funding other mafia activities, a general pattern of lawless activity above that, etc. If all you can prove is a series of one penny petit thefts in an attempt to get rich, you don’t have RICO.

I will say that states are starting to expand this theory of liability beyond RICO. For instance, organized retail theft. The flashmob petit thefts where large groups of people are entering businesses and obviously avoiding stealing merchandise over the felony threshold and taking items under it. And doing this several times in a day, etc.

Courts have reluctantly found RICO constitutional in an effort to get the mob off the street. They likely will with the flash mob stuff, but beyond that, it’s of dubious constitutionality.

I never said a judge could or would create crimes with case law. That's not even close to what I said.

I was stating that Lawpoke could find references to other states laws to see if these types of laws existed in and of themselves, where a crime was a misdemeanor, but in conjunction with other crimes, became felonies in those other states. Considering that he was suspicious of New York laws, I was saying that I had a strong suspicion that other states that had these type of statutes on their books. He could look up the statutes in another state. But looking up how the statute had been applied in case law would give a more complete view of it's similarity in application to this case.
 
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