This is the Republican Party

[astonmartin708]

Following up on this idea that kids should be allowed more freedoms because their parents should be considered responsible guardians… and how attitude that can lead to a slippery slope….

Missouri State Sen. Mike Moon defended child marriage on Tuesday, touting the apparently successful marriage of people he knows who got married when they were 12.

The Republican made the comments during a debate on a bill he introduced that would ban gender-affirming care for transgender youth in the state.

Video of the exchange showed Democratic state Rep. Peter Meredith confronting Moonover past comments he made about parents' rights to make decisions concerning their own children.

"You voted 'no' on making it illegal for kids to be married to adults at the age of 12 if their parents consented to it," Meredith told Moon. "You said actually that should be the law because it's the parents' right and the kid's right to decide what's best for them. To be raped by an adult."

 

[lawpoke87]

Following up on this idea that kids should be allowed more freedoms because their parents should be considered responsible guardians… and how attitude that can lead to a slippery slope….

Missouri State Sen. Mike Moon defended child marriage on Tuesday, touting the apparently successful marriage of people he knows who got married when they were 12.

The Republican made the comments during a debate on a bill he introduced that would ban gender-affirming care for transgender youth in the state.

Video of the exchange showed Democratic state Rep. Peter Meredith confronting Moonover past comments he made about parents' rights to make decisions concerning their own children.

"You voted 'no' on making it illegal for kids to be married to adults at the age of 12 if their parents consented to it," Meredith told Moon. "You said actually that should be the law because it's the parents' right and the kid's right to decide what's best for them. To be raped by an adult."

I view this as an example of allowing government employees to make decisions regarding our children.

One of the fundamental differences between us politically is the role of government. I don’t believe a school superintendent who has never met me or my kid should have any say if he works at the local snow cone shop during the summer. Ironically, the government says a parent does in fact have the judgment to make such decisions for their kid if said kid is homeschooled. It’s an overly broad law with nonsensical exceptions. Similar to a lot of laws enacted to stop the rare exceptions but written to apply to the masses. Wonder how many of those migrant children working in those factories actually attend a formal school opposed to some type of home school cooperative or even attend school at all?

If you can figure out why a parent of a homeschooled child should have more say regarding his child’s summer job than myself please let me know.

 

[astonmartin708]

I view this as an example of allowing government employees to make decisions regarding our children.

One of the fundamental differences between us politically is the role of government. I don’t believe a school superintendent who has never met me or my kid should have any say if he works at the local snow cone shop during the summer. Ironically, the government says a parent does in fact have the judgment to make such decisions for their kid if said kid is homeschooled. It’s an overly broad law with nonsensical exceptions. Similar to a lot of laws enacted to stop the rare exceptions but written to apply to the masses. Wonder how many of those migrant children working in those factories actually attend a formal school opposed to some type of home school cooperative or even attend school at all?

If you can figure out why a parent of a homeschooled child should have more say regarding his child’s summer job than myself please let me know.

I don’t particularly appreciate home schooling or people who homeschool…. So…. Don’t know what to tell you there.

Teachers and administrators who are hired in most cases hired with the intent that they will act more professionally, and in many times with the child’s best interest in mind.

Remember, my mom was a teacher for 20 years. I have a distinct idea about what Ratio of kids have deadbeat parents who either don’t have their children’s best interest in mind or they have very, very, very flawed concepts of what values should be taught to their kids.

The problem isn’t that YOU don’t have enough trustworthiness to care for your child when it comes to making decisions for them… It’s that many other parents don’t. In the cases of kids upbringing, you really have to design for the least common denominator. It’s not fair to the kids to just ignore the situations they’re being put into just because their parents suck.

 

[lawpoke87]

I don’t particularly appreciate home schooling or people who homeschool…. So…. Don’t know what to tell you there.

Teachers and administrators who are hired in most cases hired with the intent that they will act more professionally, and in many times with the child’s best interest in mind.

Remember, my mom was a teacher for 20 years. I have a distinct idea about what Ratio of kids have deadbeat parents who either don’t have their children’s best interest in mind or they have very, very, very flawed concepts of what values should be taught to their kids.

The problem isn’t that YOU don’t have enough trustworthiness to care for your child when it comes to making decisions for them… It’s that many other parents don’t. In the cases of kids upbringing, you really have to design for the least common denominator.

Their teacher in a class of 20 who knows my kid isn’t making the decision whether they can work at the summer snow cone shack. A superintendent of the entire school who has never met me or my kid is charged with that decision making. Unless my kid is homeschooled then I have been deemed “trust worthy” enough. It’s a ridiculous concept.

 

[astonmartin708]

Their teacher in a class of 20 who knows my kid isn’t making the decision whether they can work at the summer snow cone shack. A superintendent of the entire school who has never met me or my kid is charged with that decision making. Unless my kid is homeschooled then I have been deemed “trust worthy” enough. It’s a ridiculous concept.

Stop thinking about yourself and your kid.

Start thinking about Bob and his. Bob is an alcoholic. His most recent girlfriend is a meth addict.

Yes… the child’s teacher has a better idea about what’s in the kid’s best interest than Bob does because Bob is only conscious for 10 minutes a day when the kid is home. You would be surprised how many of those types of situations the teachers and administrators are aware of every single year in every single class.

You get mad because it makes you feel like authority is being taken from you… and that makes sense, but it is because there are many parents who haven’t shown the responsibility necessary to deserve that authority.

 

[lawpoke87]

Stop thinking about yourself and your kid.

Start thinking about Bob and his. Bob is an alcoholic. His most recent girlfriend is a meth addict.

Yes… the child’s teacher has a better idea about what’s in the kid’s best interest than Bob does because Bob is only conscious for 10 minutes a day when the kid is home. You would be surprised how many of those types of situations the teachers and administrators are aware of every single year in every single class.

Again….the kid’s teacher isn’t the party giving the approval. It’s the superintendent who has never met the kid or the alcoholic dad. Based on your example, should Bob’s kid not be allowed to work at the summer snow cone shack because his dad sucks? I would argue your example is even more of a reason why the kid should be allowed to earn money over the summer. You can bet Bob’s drunk dad isn’t going to help him get the forms and signatures required for him to work over the summer like a normal supportive parent.

 

[watu05]

Shouldn't the goal of the process should be to prevent employers from hiring kids for unsafe jobs and excessive working hours? One method is to have the employer state to a third party the conditions of employment. That's what I though the school district role could be. But heck substitute a police department, labor office, etc. I don't see this as robbing parents of their decision authority so much as creating a commitment from the employer that it is meeting standards for hiring kids.

 

[lawpoke87]

I don’t believe anyone is against protecting children from dangerous jobs or predatory employers. The question is does relying on a school administrator on his summer break with limited to no resources to determine the accuracy of the job title and work description provided to him by the bad employer an effective method to accomplish our goal?

Have the Dept of labor flag companies and industries which are problematic for child labor. Require approval from the Dept of labor be obtained from those employers prior to hiring children under 16. Eliminate the exception that home schooled kids don’t have to get approval to work these jobs. Allow parents to parent and approve of their kids working summer jobs at the snow cone shack. The school should have a role in jobs during the school year.

 

[astonmartin708]

Again….the kid’s teacher isn’t the party giving the approval. It’s the superintendent who has never met the kid or the alcoholic dad. Based on your example, should Bob’s kid not be allowed to work at the summer snow cone shack because his dad sucks? I would argue your example is even more of a reason why the kid should be allowed to earn money over the summer. You can bet Bob’s drunk dad isn’t going to help him get the forms and signatures required for him to work over the summer like a normal supportive parent.

Then don’t make it the superintendent…. and most jobs at 15 aren’t summer snowcone shacks.

At 15.5 I worked at Michaels and was only allowed to work X hours.… which was good because they would have scheduled me for many more had they been able to. Part of me would have been glad for the hours, but part of me understands that my schoolwork would have suffered. But I’m a person that valued school. Many kids don’t value school even though they should.

 

[astonmartin708]

I don’t believe anyone is against protecting children from dangerous jobs or predatory employers. The question is does relying on a school administrator on his summer break with limited to no resources to determine the accuracy of the job title and work description provided to him by the bad employer an effective method to accomplish our goal?

Have the Dept of labor flag companies and industries which are problematic for child labor. Require approval from the Dept of labor be obtained from those employers prior to hiring children under 16. Eliminate the exception that home schooled kids don’t have to get approval to work these jobs. Allow parents to parent and approve of their kids working summer jobs at the snow cone shack. The school should have a role in jobs during the school year.

”Allow parents to parent” only works when the parents actually “parent”. Many parents don’t “parent”… and even kids whose parents do “parent” can be taken advantage of.

 

[lawpoke87]

”Allow parents to parent” only works when the parents actually “parent”. Many parents don’t “parent”… and even kids whose parents do “parent” can be taken advantage of.

Instead let’s advocate a superintendent who has never met the kid or parent take on that role. Just dumb

 

[cmullinsTU]

Start thinking about Bob and his. Bob is an alcoholic. His most recent girlfriend is a meth addict.

This is similar to my childhood. Just replace meth with alcohol and marijuana and Bob's girlfriend with my mother.

I was grateful to have jobs as a 13-18 year old to get me out of the house and away from my drunk parents.

That aside, I understand your point of view. I have a different stance than you, but I see where you are coming from, and it is from a good place.

One thing to consider: Your opinions on this topic may change if/when you have children.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

”Allow parents to parent” only works when the parents actually “parent”. Many parents don’t “parent”… and even kids whose parents do “parent” can be taken advantage of.

And you think the supt is going to be more aware of the child being taken advantage of than the parent.(or the teacher) SMH Instead of admitting the law was overly broad you pivot to, well then change it to the teacher. That was part of the point lawpoke was making about it being overly broad. I would like to know if there is any appeal process if the supt says no, and the parent feels that it is an appropriate job. That is definitely where it is overly broad if there is not an appeal process.

 

[lawpoke87]

I’m still a bit confused as to why we’re requiring a superintendent’s approval for a kid he’s likely never met to work a job he likely knows nothing about for a company he’s likely never heard of during a period when the child isn’t in school? I’m willing to listen if the superintendent’s approval was only required for jobs during the school year.

As I said above, if our aim is to protect children from dangerous work environments wouldn’t the Dept of Labor be a better regulatory agency ? You know….people who can actually go to these companies and observe working conditions.

 

[watu05]

One thing to consider: Your opinions on this topic may change if/when you have children.

Everything changes when you have children....

 

[aTUfan]

Everything changes when you have children....

so who is in charge of a child? the gov or the parent?

 

[astonmartin708]

Instead let’s advocate a superintendent who has never met the kid or parent take on that role. Just dumb

You do know that the superintendent would probably just delegate the task to administrators more familiar with the kid right?

What if the kid is supposed to be in summer school? (I recall that my cousin specifically had that problem when he was doing a paper route that interfered with remedial classes he needed to take during the summers)

 

[Gmoney4WW]

If he's in school, he's in school, and the same rules apply. Anything to find another argument. Technicalities aren't another argument.

He is right though, he/she would probably delegate, as long as they didn't have a reason to disapprove. That's probably why they gave the supt the responsibility, so he could have the final say, if necessary. That way all of his/her teachers could provide input if they saw something was wrong with the job.

The problem with it is if the child had something negative to say about the job, the teacher(s)/counselor could suggest against it, and sway the decision. They could find a reason that might sound rational, but was just influenced by the kid. Some parents have kids work a job for the money, some parents have the kids work a job for the responsibility. Sometimes it's hard enough to get the parents to agree, now you are throwing a third party in. Kids will take advantage of that.

 

[astonmartin708]

In other news: US Military over run with "libertarian" grunts who think they know better.... proceed to put thousands of lives in danger for internet cred.

We apparently have better cyber security policies at my office than in the Air Force.

 

[astonmartin708]

If he's in school, he's in school, and the same rules apply. Anything to find another argument. Technicalities aren't another argument.

He is right though, he/she would probably delegate, as long as they didn't have a reason to disapprove. That's probably why they gave the supt the responsibility, so he could have the final say, if necessary. That way all of his/her teachers could provide input if they saw something was wrong with the job.

The problem with it is if the child had something negative to say about the job, the teacher(s)/counselor could suggest against it, and sway the decision. They could find a reason that might sound rational, but was just influenced by the kid. Some parents have kids work a job for the money, some parents have the kids work a job for the responsibility. Sometimes it's hard enough to get the parents to agree, now you are throwing a third party in. Kids will take advantage of that.

The problem is, how does a normal business or even a contractor like a delivery service or Joe's snow cone shack know which one's are supposed to be in school?

In this case it's easier and more effective to make the restriction rather broad. It's not so punitive that it extraordinarily detriments anyone and it puts multiple levels of safe guard in. Those who want to work and should be able to, for the most part, still can. Those who should not, can not. The extra (admittedly annoying) step in the middle is just there to try and prevent kids from falling through the cracks.

If we had a higher ratio of parents who actually were competent and had their kid's best interest at heart, I would be more understanding of placing responsibility on them. Right now, I'd probably say that at least 10% of parents are flat out irresponsible, and that comes from the perspective of Broken Arrow which isn't an especially poor district compared to others throughout the country. I also expect that number to increase with all of these abortion repeals.

 

[lawpoke87]

The problem is, how does a normal business or even a contractor like a delivery service or Joe's snow cone shack know which one's are supposed to be in school?

In this case it's easier and more effective to make the restriction rather broad. It's not so punitive that it extraordinarily detriments anyone and it puts multiple levels of safe guard in. Those who want to work and should be able to, for the most part, still can. Those who should not, can not. The extra (admittedly annoying) step in the middle is just there to try and prevent kids from falling through the cracks.

If we had a higher ratio of parents who actually were competent and had their kid's best interest at heart, I would be more understanding of placing responsibility on them. Right now, I'd probably say that at least 10% of parents are flat out irresponsible, and that comes from the perspective of Broken Arrow which isn't an especially poor district compared to others throughout the country. I also expect that number to increase with all of these abortion repeals.

My experience (as a father of five) of children from a poor home life is that working too much (if at all) is seldom an issue. Having too much time on their hands is almost always the problem. These kids typically aren’t invovled in athletics or any other school related activities. They gravitate to other like students and the result is often problematic.

This topic has veered off tract a bit as the original post by WATU was about work safety for these kids and not interference with school. A concern I continue to argue would be better addressed by the Dept of Labor and not a superintendent in charge of over 4000 students (BA).

 

[cmullinsTU]

My experience (as a father of five) of children from a poor home life is that working too much (if at all) is seldom an issue. Having too much time on their hands is almost always the problem. These kids typically aren’t invovled in athletics or any other school related activities. They gravitate to other like students and the result is often problematic.

This topic has veered off tract a bit as the original post by WATU was about work safety for these kids and not interference with school. A concern I continue to argue would be better addressed by the Dept of Labor and not a superintendent in charge of over 4000 students (BA).

Very similar to the experiences I observed too.

And too much free time rarely results in a positive outcome.

Additionally, my wife works with kids that do school online (basically homeschooling but with certified teachers vs parents as teachers). It is really frustrating and sad how little education those kids get and the lack of routines in their households.

 

[astonmartin708]

Brought to you by the party of "small government":

Social Media companies will now need to collect government identification information from EVERY USER in the states of Arkansas and Utah. No way that information becomes a liability for the public in the future! /s

Hope Rivals and the rest of the internet is prepared for this.

Bill requiring age verification for new social media users in Arkansas signed into law | Arkansas Democrat Gazette

Gov. Sarah Huckabee Sanders signed a bill into law Wednesday that will require large social media companies to institute age verification checks for new users and to require those younger than 18 to seek parental permission to open an account.

www.arkansasonline.com

The GOP can't see past their own noses.

 

[lawpoke87]

Not a fan. Goes back to your argument that parents are crappy and not capable of monitoring their children’s online activity (or making decisions re them working a job) so the government needs to step in. We’ve seen how closely some of these social media companies work with the Fed’s. Simply the not role of the government.

 

[aTUfan]

Not a fan. Goes back to your argument that parents are crappy and not capable of monitoring their children’s online activity (or making decisions re them working a job) so the government needs to step in. We’ve seen how closely some of these social media companies work with the Fed’s. Simply the role of the government.

both side have gone crazy

 

[Gmoney4WW]

both side have gone crazy

Now you are getting it.

 

[rusty-c]

I’m still a bit confused as to why we’re requiring a superintendent’s approval for a kid he’s likely never met to work a job he likely knows nothing about for a company he’s likely never heard of during a period when the child isn’t in school? I’m willing to listen if the superintendent’s approval was only required for jobs during the school year.

As I said above, if our aim is to protect children from dangerous work environments wouldn’t the Dept of Labor be a better regulatory agency ? You know….people who can actually go to these companies and observe working conditions.

Superintendents do not sign off on work permits. Principals and counselors do since they are the folks who see attendance records, academic progress, and transcripts. If it’s during the summer the school has nothing to do with it and no permit is needed. This isn’t a school thing, it’s a Department of Labor requirement thing, and the permit is just a hoop to jump through.

 

[lawpoke87]

Superintendents do not sign off on work permits. Principals and counselors do since they are the folks who see attendance records, academic progress, and transcripts. If it’s during the summer the school has nothing to do with it and no permit is needed. This isn’t a school thing, it’s a Department of Labor requirement thing, and the permit is just a hoop to jump through.

I see nothing in Title 40 which limits work permits to the school year. Also, the Oklahoma statute places the Dept of Education in charge of work permits not the Dept of Labor.

Work Permit

oklahoma.gov

 

[rusty-c]

I see nothing in Title 40 which limits work permits to the school year. Also, the Oklahoma statute places the Dept of Education in charge of work permits not the Dept of Labor.

Work Permit

oklahoma.gov

I apologize and partially stand corrected, as the permits are issued at the state level through a government agency (in Oklahoma it's the school district). Federal regulations limit the amount of hours worked, and number of hours as well as provides restrictions to the type of work/equipment that may be operated.During my 25 plus year tenure in the public schools it was handled in the way I stated.

Minors who are authorized to work under federal law are subject to restrictions on when they can work, and how many hours they can work. The exact restrictions in effect depend on the age of the minor, and are designed to ensure that work does not interfere with the minor's schooling.

Per Federal Law, and as adopted at the state level.....

---

Maximum Hours of Work for Minors​

Working hour restrictions limit how many hours a minor may work per day, and per week.

For Minors Under 16:

8 hours per day and 40 per week are permitted during a non-school day period, during a school period 3 hours per day 18 hours per week are allowed.

For Minors Ages 16 and 17:

Federal has no restrictions on maximum working hours for minors aged 16 and 17.

Notes: Students of 14 and 15 enrolled in approved Work Experience and Career Exploration programs may work during school hours up to 3 hours on a school day and 23 hours in a schoolweek.

---

Nightwork Restrictions for Minors​

Nightwork restrictions set limits on how late a minor can legally work.

For Minors Under 16:

Work is prohibited during these hours: 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. (9 p.m. to 7 a.m. June 1 through Labor Day)

For Minors Ages 16 and 17:

Federal law has no restrictions on nightwork for minors aged 16 and 17.

 

[astonmartin708]

Fun but totally off topic fact…. I sat 2 rows diagonally behind my state’s GOP senator on my flight today.

Found out that he’s a very slow reader, and it wasn’t dense text. (He was holding it up so I could read everything he read)

 

[URedskin54]

Yeah I’m sure an MD never had to read dense material

 

[astonmartin708]

Yeah I’m sure an MD never had to read dense material

Didn’t mean to insinuate he had a hard time comprehending, just that he was noticeably slow.

He had a whole slide deck constructed by aides on hit piece items related to Biden’s energy and clean auto policies. Look for them to be Fox News subjects in a couple weeks.

He has very nice handwriting for a MD though.

 

[lawpoke87]

Didn’t mean to insinuate he had a hard time comprehending, just that he was noticeably slow.

He had a whole slide deck constructed by aides on hit piece items related to Biden’s energy and clean auto policies. Look for them to be Fox News subjects in a couple weeks.

He has very nice handwriting for a MD though.

Hopefully the automakers can get the EVs figured out. I bit the bullet in January. Vehicle goes into the shop (completely dead) on February 20th and it’s been there until today when I got the ok to pick it back up. They fix one thing and another issue pops up on the diagnostic. Fix that and another one. So on and so on. Mix in a recall and the vehicle has been on the dealers lot for the last two months. It was in my driveway for 5 weeks. Similar experiences with others who have purchased the vehicle.

 

[watu05]

Interesting look at DiSantis' goal of making America look like Florida by summarizing bills he passed or has in process. A number of these bills are very unpopular in Florida, but appear to appeal to the Maga core outside the state.
His war with Disney is also expanding. Going after the state's largest employer for disagreeing with one of his 'antiwoke' bills stands in contrast to a small government, pro-business Republican party.

There is a clear model for what DiSantis is doing: claiming that there are extreme threats from the Left that justifies extreme measures from the Right as perfected by Hungary's Orban. Orban's staff have been regular speakers at national conservative events touting Orban's methods. These methods have worked in Hungary.

The anti trans-community efforts seems to be working for Republicans, but one has to wonder what sort of threat a tiny group like this poses or even how many Americans have even come into contact with a trans-person? Now that gays have moved more or less into the mainstream, trans people were the next line?

 

[lawpoke87]

Interesting look at DiSantis' goal of making America look like Florida by summarizing bills he passed or has in process. Interestingly it ignores his war with Disney, the states' largest employer, for simply disagreeing with one of his 'antiwoke' efforts. A number of these bills are very unpopular in Florida, but appear to appeal to the Maga core outside the state.

I’ll bite. How do you win that state by almost 20 points and carry the likes of Miami-Dade if you’re supporting very unpopular legislation?

 

[URedskin54]

Interesting look at DiSantis' goal of making America look like Florida by summarizing bills he passed or has in process. A number of these bills are very unpopular in Florida, but appear to appeal to the Maga core outside the state.
His war with Disney is also expanding. Going after the state's largest employer for disagreeing with one of his 'antiwoke' bills stands in contrast to a small government, pro-business Republican party.

Haven’t you been against the pro-big business Republican Party for the last decade on this board? Would think going after corporate handouts and special exemptions would be exactly what you want

 

[watu05]

Ex

Haven’t you been against the pro-big business Republican Party for the last decade on this board? Would think going after corporate handouts and special exemptions would be exactly what you want

I don't know if the Disney deal involved handouts or not. My post was an observation of how DiSantis' strategy to become president differs from what used to be core Republican principles..and who he is emulating.

I was for decades a very supportive Republican but starting with the Iraq invasion and what followed leading to this current MAGA version, is something completely different.

 

[URedskin54]

Ex

I don't know if the Disney deal involved handouts or not. My post was an observation of how DiSantis' strategy to become president differs from what used to be core Republican principles..and who he is emulating.

I was for decades a very supportive Republican but starting with the Iraq invasion and what followed leading to this current MAGA version, is something completely different.

Idk man an isolationist, corporation punishing party sounds like exactly what you wanted and that’s what it’s going to be. It’s not my party but it’s a 180 from what it was. Does Disney ❤️ China or something?

 

[watu05]

I’ll bite. How do you win that state by almost 20 points and carry the likes of Miami-Dade if you’re supporting very unpopular legislation?

It's a great trick; but the polls show individual pieces of legislation, particularly his 6 week abortion ban, are very unpopular.

Do you think DiSantis is a representative of what made the Republican party so attractive and a major contributor to the US economy and society in the past?

 

[lawpoke87]

It's a great trick; but the polls show individual pieces of legislation, particularly his 6 week abortion ban, are very unpopular.

Do you think DiSantis is a representative of what made the Republican party so attractive and a major contributor to the US economy and society in the past?

DeSantis is too conservative of my liking. Unfortunately, both parties now live on the extremes. The days where the Pubs stood for small government and fiscal responsibility (at least pretended too) are gone. The days where the Dems championed working Americans and fought for civil liberties of all (not just who agree with them) are also all but gone.

This country is headed toward a cliff and both parties are driving the bus. What once made this country great has faded into a distant memory. Frankly…we are F’d.