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Okay Mr. “Free Speech” Protector…

Looks like we’re going to get a first hand look at how school choice fares in Texas as the current bill will almost certainly become law. What’s interesting is while almost 2/3rds of Texans support the bill it’s Black Texans who support the measure by a whopping 69%.
 
Gmoney4WW said:
Why??? (Meant to be a rhetorical.)
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Because their communities schools have been so underfunded by the state (for specifically this purpose) that they think this will be a way to buy their way into other communities' schools.....

Which will last for a whole 10 seconds until the local Baptist pastor's wife realizes that a bunch of inner city kids are going to be in their precious baby's class.... they will feel uncomfortable with this and overtake the admission's process....

They will then deny the inner city kids' admission (never outright saying they're doing it based on race so they don't get sued. Maybe they'll just up the tuition to the voucher price plus a premium that the poor folks can't afford) and meanwhile the African Americans will still be stuck in 'crappy' public schools.... only this time with even worse funding... because we gave the money to the pastor's wife.

It's a hidden way for bigots to cement a caste system... and as aTUfan says "keep more of THEIR money" because they don't want to pay into the public educations system.
 
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I love seeing black parents who want a better education for their kids through access to better schools only to hear white liberals doing everything they can to force them to stay in the same crappy schools with the same crappy education with the same crappy outcomes with the same crappy cycle of poverty and crime. All the while proposing zero solutions for a never ending problem. Hard to maintain control over them if they aren’t dependent on you for basic necessities I suppose. So let’s continue to force them to attend failed schools even when a vast majority want alternatives
 
lawpoke87 said:
I love seeing black parents who want a better education for their kids through access to better schools only to hear white liberals doing everything they can to force them to stay in the same crappy schools with the same crappy education with the same crappy outcomes with the same crappy cycle of poverty and crime. All the while proposing zero solutions for a never ending problem. Hard to maintain control over them if they aren’t dependent on you for basic necessities I suppose. So let’s continue to force them to attend failed schools even when a vast majority want alternatives
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And you think this republican plan in Texas that offers them a 10k voucher to go to a 20k tuition school does them any good? Both the Democrats & the Republicans are selling them a bill of goods. Neither party is fixing the problem, but the bill of goods the republicans are selling them makes the system much worse.
 
lawpoke87 said:
I love seeing black parents who want a better education for their kids through access to better schools only to hear white liberals doing everything they can to force them to stay in the same crappy schools with the same crappy education with the same crappy outcomes with the same crappy cycle of poverty and crime. All the while proposing zero solutions for a never ending problem. Hard to maintain control over them if they aren’t dependent on you for basic necessities I suppose. So let’s continue to force them to attend failed schools even when a vast majority want alternatives
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I don't want to 'maintain control' over anyone.

I did propose a solution. Redistribute property tax funds across a wider area so those dollars aren't tied up in wasteful projects in the suburbuan districts. Take the money from Union, Jenks, Owasso, Bixby, BA, etc... that they use to build palatial football stadiums and IPF's and give it to Booker T Washington to improve the Math and Reading programs.

Stop allowing for tax increases to fund buildings and capital expenditure but not teacher pay.

There you go.... two solutions...

The real problem is that the suburban parents want their kids to go to the palatial school and don't want their dollars to be pooled and used by poor schools. (That's why they moved where they did in the first place) They also put too much emphasis on athletics and extra curriculars and not enough emphasis on school. (Not that I'm saying extra curriculars shouldn't be supported)
 
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astonmartin708 said:
I don't want to 'maintain control' over anyone.

I did propose a solution. Redistribute property tax funds across a wider area so those dollars aren't tied up in wasteful projects in the suburbuan districts. Take the money from Union, Jenks, Owasso, Bixby, BA, etc... that they use to build palatial football stadiums and IPF's and give it to Booker T Washington to improve the Math and Reading programs.

Stop allowing for tax increases to fund buildings and capital expenditure but not teacher pay.

There you go.... two solutions...

The real problem is that the suburban parents want their kids to go to the palatial school and don't want their dollars to be pooled and used by poor schools. (That's why they moved where they did in the first place) They also put too much emphasis on athletics and extra curriculars and not enough emphasis on school. (Not that I'm saying extra curriculars shouldn't be supported)
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The real problem is how education is viewed by many of the parents in these urban schools. No amount of money is going to help until parents in those districts begin to value education. A kid who studies and excel scholastically shouldn’t be ostracized by his piers but yet here we are. TPS has attempted to throw money at their low performing schools by giving educators bonuses and higher salaries for teaching in those districts. Those efforts have largely failed in large part due to the lack of parental support.

You do in fact want to keep those uppity minorities in place by denying them what they are asking for….access to a better education and life for their children. They know firsthand what these schools are like and have been for decades. I don’t blame them one bit for wanting their kids to be around other kids and families who value education rather than ridicule it.

Any answer which doesn’t start with changing societal values in those areas is destined for failure. All the money in the world won’t matter until education is valued.
 
Where is the proof that Charter schools do better? The example I posed above shows that the academic performance is substandard and the parents and taxpayers are being ripped off. Uppity indeed.
 
lawpoke87 said:
The real problem is how education is viewed by many of the parents in these urban schools. No amount of money is going to help until parents in those districts begin to value education. A kid who studies and excel scholastically shouldn’t be ostracized by his piers but yet here we are. TPS has attempted to throw money at their low performing schools by giving educators bonuses and higher salaries for teaching in those districts. Those efforts have largely failed in large part due to the lack of parental support.

You do in fact want to keep those uppity minorities in place by denying them what they are asking for….access to a better education and life for their children. They know firsthand what these schools are like and have been for decades. I don’t blame them one bit for wanting their kids to be around other kids and families who value education rather than ridicule it.

Any answer which doesn’t start with changing societal values in those areas is destined for failure. All the money in the world won’t matter until education is valued.
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What you're suggesting doesn't actually solve problems. It's just an excuse. You're simultaneously saying that parents in these districts don't care about their children's education, but also that they want to send their kids somewhere better and are willing to invest the time money and effort to do so rather than sending their kid to a local school?

How are those kids going to get to the suburban schools, fly on brooms? You already said you don't want to bus them. Their parents aren't going to be able to take off work every day to drive across town to drop them off.
 
astonmartin708 said:
I don't want to 'maintain control' over anyone.

I did propose a solution. Redistribute property tax funds across a wider area so those dollars aren't tied up in wasteful projects in the suburbuan districts. Take the money from Union, Jenks, Owasso, Bixby, BA, etc... that they use to build palatial football stadiums and IPF's and give it to Booker T Washington to improve the Math and Reading programs.

Stop allowing for tax increases to fund buildings and capital expenditure but not teacher pay.

There you go.... two solutions...

The real problem is that the suburban parents want their kids to go to the palatial school and don't want their dollars to be pooled and used by poor schools. (That's why they moved where they did in the first place) They also put too much emphasis on athletics and extra curriculars and not enough emphasis on school. (Not that I'm saying extra curriculars shouldn't be supported)
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Washington State's Constitution gives a high priority to children's education. The state both caps how much affluent communities can individually pay for local education and also collects and redistributes school funding statewide. IT's not a perfect system, but recognizes the issue and smooths the differences,
 
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astonmartin708 said:
What you're suggesting doesn't actually solve problems. It's just an excuse. You're simultaneously saying that parents in these districts don't care about their children's education, but also that they want to send their kids somewhere better and are willing to invest the time money and effort to do so rather than sending their kid to a local school?

How are those kids going to get to the suburban schools, fly on brooms? You already said you don't want to bus them. Their parents aren't going to be able to take off work every day to drive across town to drop them off.
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There are obvious parents in these districts who want a better education for these kids. See minority support for vouchers. Didn’t think I needed to state the obvious but apparently I was wrong. The problem is they are often in the minority. They’ve lived in the districts for years. They know better than anyone on this board the atmosphere in these schools and the difficulties kids face scholastically. Which is why they want better for their children. They certainly believe changing schools is a viable option. I have no reason not to believe them. If white liberals want to keep minorities seeking a better life and education in their failing schools then I suppose it is what it is. I don’t support the cycle of poverty and crime. Especially when there are people trying to escape the same.

What I’m suggesting is the only way to solve the problem. We must start by changing the attitude toward education in these communities. TPS teachers in at risk schools are the highest paid teachers in TPS. Has the money increased student performance….no. When students don’t do their assigned work and the teacher contacts the parent over the problem and receives no response there’s just not much that teacher can do. Everything starts with the parents and that needs to be the initial focus.

I was listening to Charles Barkley the other day. He spends a lot to time visiting schools and talking to kids. He said he will ask kids at suburban schools to raise their hands if they want to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant, etc… 90% of hands go up. He then asks how many want to be professional athletes and he gets 10% or less. He then asks that same question at urban schools and the responses are exactly opposite. Explains in part why the lack of value placed on education
 
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lawpoke87 said:
There are obvious parents in these districts who want a better education for these kids. See minority support for vouchers. Didn’t think I needed to state the obvious but apparently I was wrong. The problem is they are often in the minority. They’ve lived in the districts for years. They know better than anyone on this board the atmosphere in these schools and the difficulties kids face scholastically. Which is why they want better for their children. They certainly believe changing schools is a viable option. I have no reason not to believe them. If white liberals want to keep minorities seeking a better life and education in their failing schools then I suppose it is what it is. I don’t support the cycle of poverty and crime. Especially when there are people trying to escape the same.

What I’m suggesting is the only way to solve the problem. We must start by changing the attitude toward education in these communities. TPS teachers in at risk schools are the highest paid teachers in TPS. Has the money increased student performance….no. When students don’t do their assigned work and the teacher contacts the parent over the problem and receives no response there’s just not much that teacher can do. Everything starts with the parents and that needs to be the initial focus.

I was listening to Charles Barkley the other day. He spends a lot to time visiting schools and talking to kids. He said he will ask kids at suburban schools to raise their hands if they want to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant, etc… 90% of hands go up. He then asks how many want to be professional athletes and he gets 10% or less. He then asks that same question at urban schools and the responses are exactly opposite. Explains in part why the lack of value placed on education
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You are contnually getting away from the issue you started out addressing though. Abbott is taking away from schools that are problem schools and reallocating it to wealthy parents in the form of a tuition coupon. Only those who can afford the rest of the tuition costs will use this. No poor parents can afford the rest of the tuition costs at private achools. If anything it should be allocated to those in need just like pell grants, for what the parents can afford in relation to tuition where the kid is applying to.
 
Gmoney4WW said:
You are contnually getting away from the issue you started out addressing though. Abbott is taking away from schools that are problem schools and reallocating it to wealthy parents in the form of a tuition coupon. Only those who can afford the rest of the tuition costs will use this. No poor parents can afford the rest of the tuition costs at private achools. If anything it should be allocated to those in need just like pell grants, for what the parents can afford in relation to tuition where the kid is applying to.
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Most private schools give “scholarships” based on need. Are you suggesting this measure will end private schools giving financial assistance to lower income families ?
 
lawpoke87 said:
Most private schools give “scholarships” based on need. Are you suggesting this measure will end private schools giving financial assistance to lower income families ?
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No, I'm assuming they will only give scholarships to the absolute brightest. That leaves out gifted students that don't quite meet the necessary level for scholarships. Those students who are scholarship level is very small.
 
lawpoke87 said:
There are obvious parents in these districts who want a better education for these kids. See minority support for vouchers. Didn’t think I needed to state the obvious but apparently I was wrong. The problem is they are often in the minority. They’ve lived in the districts for years. They know better than anyone on this board the atmosphere in these schools and the difficulties kids face scholastically. Which is why they want better for their children. They certainly believe changing schools is a viable option. I have no reason not to believe them. If white liberals want to keep minorities seeking a better life and education in their failing schools then I suppose it is what it is. I don’t support the cycle of poverty and crime. Especially when there are people trying to escape the same.

What I’m suggesting is the only way to solve the problem. We must start by changing the attitude toward education in these communities. TPS teachers in at risk schools are the highest paid teachers in TPS. Has the money increased student performance….no. When students don’t do their assigned work and the teacher contacts the parent over the problem and receives no response there’s just not much that teacher can do. Everything starts with the parents and that needs to be the initial focus.

I was listening to Charles Barkley the other day. He spends a lot to time visiting schools and talking to kids. He said he will ask kids at suburban schools to raise their hands if they want to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant, etc… 90% of hands go up. He then asks how many want to be professional athletes and he gets 10% or less. He then asks that same question at urban schools and the responses are exactly opposite. Explains in part why the lack of value placed on education
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School choice does not fix parental engagement. Heck, there are many kids in the BA and Union districts that have crappy parents too. Again, engaged parents (ones who really want to choose schools) are not the ones you need to go after for improvement. It's the deadbeats, or the single moms who work two or three jobs, the dads who are drunks that you need to get to.

I agree that you have to change the attitudes in the communities. Honestly... I might start by putting a temporary moratorium on their competitive athletics programs until grades and test scores improve school-wide. Parents will go ballistic, but it would probably be worth it. The counter argument would probably be that those programs keep kids occupied and out of trouble. You would have to replace them with something academic.... maybe do after school trade school type stuff where the kids could earn money some money via vocational work or intern type work.
 
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aTUfan said:
get rid of the classroom disruptors and restore discipline. get rid of touchy Feely classes.
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5000:3

This post displays your ignorance on so many levels. Everybody on this board ignore's your boring, simplistic, and puerile responses to complex issues that you don't understand. I wish you would do the same, by not posting. You have hit on two or three brief points that actually added to the board. That is in the 10+ years I have been reading the crossfire board. 5,000 juvenile posts to 3 decent, interesting posts in 10 years is not a ratio that says keep posting.
 
Gmoney4WW said:
5000:3

This post displays your ignorance on so many levels. Everybody on this board ignore's your boring, simplistic, and puerile responses to complex issues that you don't understand. I wish you would do the same, by not posting. You have hit on two or three brief points that actually added to the board. That is in the 10+ years I have been reading the crossfire board. 5,000 juvenile posts to 3 decent, interesting posts in 10 years is not a ratio that says keep posting.
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you never answered my question; "how would you fix the problem?". you just responded with personal attacks.
 
lawpoke87 said:
My position hasn’t changed. As one of the few posters on this board who supports free speech regardless of the political viewpoint of the speaker, I find this objectionable and dangerous.
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“And I believe that CNN and MSDNC, who literally write 97.6% bad about me are political arms of the Democrat Party and in my opinion they're really corrupt and they're illegal, what they do is illegal," Trump said.

Some more attacks on freedom of the press….
 
aTUfan said:
you never answered my question; "how would you fix the problem?". you just responded with personal attacks.
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Gmoney4WW said:
So they overburden Jenks, BA, Bixby, Booker T? That doesn't really seem to work. I don't really have a solution, but I know it isn't subsidizing the wealthy parents at private schools. That just makes it worse. Like I said, class warfare.
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If you would read the entire post topic, and/or remember what people had said in past responses to other people, you would realize I had answered you before you even asked the question.
 
watu05 said:
China Derangement Syndrome must be a chronic disease for some. The main symptom appears to uncontrollable non-sequiturs.
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China Derangement Syndrome doesn’t exist in Xinjang under glorious CCP universal healthcare
 
Nice to support Trump's silencing of scientists by issuing a diversional statement about Biden. That way you don't have to address what Trump is doing. Trump's 'Cult of Thin Skinned Personality' is already old. Anybody that doesn't bow down...
 
Gmoney4WW said:
Nice to support Trump's silencing of scientists by issuing a diversional statement about Biden. That way you don't have to address what Trump is doing. Trump's 'Cult of Thin Skinned Personality' is already old. Anybody that doesn't bow down...
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Stop…I’ve stated 100x that I don’t support the suppression of speech by the federal government period. The partisans on this board who have a double standard which I was pointing out should be ashamed. Did you call out the Biden Admin when they were violating the first amendment rights of its citizens? For the 101st time, any attempt to silence speech by the federal government which is critical or against the position of the same is wrong and a direct violation of our civil liberties. I can’t be any clearer. Who on here has the integrity to stand by principles regardless of party affiliation ?
 
lawpoke87 said:
Stop…I’ve stated 100x that I don’t support the suppression of speech by the federal government period. The partisans on this board who have a double standard which I was pointing out should be ashamed. Did you call out the Biden Admin when they were violating the first amendment rights of its citizens? For the 101st time, any attempt to silence speech by the federal government which is critical or against the position of the same is wrong and a direct violation of our civil liberties. I can’t be any clearer. Who on here has the integrity to stand by principles regardless of party affiliation ?
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I get tired of you and Aston trying to prove who is the bigger hypocrite. I really don't care. Repeated over and over, it doesn't add to the conversation. It's just tit for tat. But when you bring up the Biden incident that you call suppression of speech, and talk about it indefinitely, but only comment on Aston's hypocrisy in relation to Trump doing the same thing, it leaves an impression.
 
Gmoney4WW said:
I get tired of you and Aston trying to prove who is the bigger hypocrite. I really don't care. Repeated over and over, it doesn't add to the conversation. It's just tit for tat. But when you bring up the Biden incident that you call suppression of speech, and talk about it indefinitely, but only comment on Aston's hypocrisy in relation to Trump doing the same thing, it leaves an impression.
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As I get tired of what I see is a general lack of integrity of people on both sides of the political spectrum. Which is why I constantly point it out. I try to be consistent with my principle values regardless of party. Unlike most on this board. Don’t call out one side for doing something while you support the other for the exact same thing. It’s a bad look and shows a general lack of integrity.

Funny….its not disputed that the Biden Admin actively pressured social media sites to censor and suppress speech which was contrary to its policies or political positions. You characterize it as “the Biden incident which you call suppression of speech”. You won’t even call a spade a spade when it’s your party committing the wrong doing. Instead it’s “what I call suppression”. Yet you wonder why I get frustrated.
 
lawpoke87 said:
As I get tired of what I see is a general lack of integrity of people on both sides of the political spectrum. Which is why I constantly point it out. I try to be consistent with my principle values regardless of party. Unlike most on this board. Don’t call out one side for doing something while you support the other for the exact same thing. It’s a bad look and shows a general lack of integrity.

Funny….its not disputed that the Biden Admin actively pressured social media sites to censor and suppress speech which was contrary to its policies or political positions. You characterize it as “the Biden incident which you call suppression of speech”. You won’t even call a spade a spade when it’s your party committing the wrong doing. Instead it’s “what I call suppression”. Yet you wonder why I get frustrated.
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Now you criticize me for being unbiased in how I worded the Biden's taking part in suppression of speech, but you still don't talk about what Trump is doing. Talk about extreme avoidance of a subject because it doesn't suit you to address it, okay.

Not talking about one side of an issue,(when republicans suppress freedom of speech) but pointing it out and talking about it non-stop when the other side does it, (Democratic suppression of speech.) leaves an impression. If we take this approach with every issue(which we seem to do) then we are helping keep it out of people's minds. There are multiple ways we can work towards a bias. Not really addressing it when it happens on our side of the street is one of them. There was dialog coming out of many people on this board when you brought it up on the democratic side. There has been virtually none, except aston talking to the peanut gallery, when the republicans do so.
 
lawpoke87 said:
As I get tired of what I see is a general lack of integrity of people on both sides of the political spectrum. Which is why I constantly point it out. I try to be consistent with my principle values regardless of party. Unlike most on this board. Don’t call out one side for doing something while you support the other for the exact same thing. It’s a bad look and shows a general lack of integrity.

Funny….its not disputed that the Biden Admin actively pressured social media sites to censor and suppress speech which was contrary to its policies or political positions. You characterize it as “the Biden incident which you call suppression of speech”. You won’t even call a spade a spade when it’s your party committing the wrong doing. Instead it’s “what I call suppression”. Yet you wonder why I get frustrated.
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Ok sir, I don’t see you throwing a fit about this like you have about the Biden admin for the past 5 years. Why do you stop ACTIVELY caring when a Dem exists office? You’re just as big of a hypocrite. You’re not bringing up articles day after day of the crap Trump’s admin is doing… you’re instead stuck “what-about-ing” the Biden admin and silent about these things as long as no one brings them up.
 
astonmartin708 said:
Ok sir, I don’t see you throwing a fit about this like you have about the Biden admin for the past 5 years. Why do you stop ACTIVELY caring when a Dem exists office? You’re just as big of a hypocrite. You’re not bringing up articles day after day of the crap Trump’s admin is doing… you’re instead stuck “what-about-ing” the Biden admin and silent about these things as long as no one brings them up.
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I hadn’t seen the article about the French scientist as I don’t read new republic. As I’ve said many times, I condemn any actions to silence speech based on political motives. Don’t care if it’s Trump or Biden or whomever. Something which makes me rather unique on this board.

I will be more than happy to address stories when they hit the AP, Reuters, etc. I’m not clicking on partisan sites like new republic to keep you clowns happy :)
 
lawpoke87 said:
I hadn’t seen the article about the French scientist as I don’t read new republic. As I’ve said many times, I condemn any actions to silence speech based on political motives. Don’t care if it’s Trump or Biden or whomever. Something which makes me rather unique on this board.

I will be more than happy to address stories when they hit the AP, Reuters, etc. I’m not clicking on partisan sites like new republic to keep you clowns happy :)
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I’ve seen you post stuff from partisan sites before… like the Babylon Bee.
 
astonmartin708 said:
I’ve seen you post stuff from partisan sites before… like the Babylon Bee.
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Babylon Bee is satire. Not a news site. I do try not to post from extreme partisan sites. Sometimes I probably fail. I do believe major sites like CNN, Fox, AP, CBS are fair game even though there is some partisanship present
 
lawpoke87 said:
Babylon Bee is satire. Not a news site. I do try not to post from extreme partisan sites. Sometimes I probably fail. I do believe major sites like CNN, Fox, AP, CBS are fair game even though there is some partisanship present
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Okay, so no commentary on Trump going after law firms that have worked for Democratic campaigns under the guise of DEI? Seems like it could be problematic….


I just think you don’t actually care. You just feign it. If you did you would be posting these things yourself.
 
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