Obama, Trump and the UK

[TUMe]

Both give the Ugly American image new life.

Obama goes to the UK recently and does the hard sell for staying in the EU. Did that cause the loss, of course, not. But it looked unseemly.

Trump this morning is in Scotland pretending that Bretix is a prediction of the US taking back it's country. The only thing is Scotland voted to stay in the EU.

Both are tone deaf and lack old fashioned taste and manners. A guest shouldn't get involved in decisions of another country. I know as much about world economies as I do about, well, world economies. But both trying to play Mr. Bigshot in a foreign country is an embarrassment. Hopefully, Mrs. Clinton will stay out of it and see what happens.

 

[astonmartin708]

I just think they were absolutely stupid to do it. It like voting whether or not to set your apartment on fire just because you don't like the neighbors

 

[URedskin54]

I have no idea who is right, but it's really fascinating to me that this is an issue where conservatives and liberals come down neatly on opposite sides, with the exception of some Wall Street conservatives. There were good reasons for staying and for leaving, but it just seems kind of hilarious that we have the exact same divide in opinion even when we're talking about another country's politics.

 

[noble cane]

Three cheers for the Brits!

Now it's time for another referendum on Scottish independence from the UK.

It's time to stand up against the oppression of centralized authority and return the power to the local sovereign entities.

 

[lawpoke87]

Does my heart good to know there is at least one place in the world where democracy works.

Conservative party lobbied it's members to stay.

Labour Party lobbied it's members to stay.

Obama threatened the Brits that the U.S. would place he UK at the end of the line when it came to trade deals with the U.S. If they left.

Big money/banks through in millions to the stay campaign.

The working class said screw you all. Our wages are being depressed by the immigration of millions of largely unskilled workers. We've allowed third parties to dictate our agenda. Ordinary people were heard last night and for that I'm very happy.

 

[TUMe]

With typical British reserve, they never took their money Euro. That left the option of exit a bit easier. I don't pretend to know what is right, but the people have spoken. I agree with Noble that Scotland will probably vote again, since it voted for staying in the EU.

The markets will calm down. The UK may have an American born [duel citizenship] PM in Boris Johnson who favored Brexit.

 

[noble cane]

Scotland will vote for independence so they can remain in the EU. They were one of the nations that likes their EU subsidies paid for by the functioning economies.

The interesting fight will be over the "dwindling North Sea oil reserves"... Are they Scottish or British?

 

[URedskin54]

Will the EU take on another welfare state like Scotland out of spite?

 

[noble cane]

The scots hope they will.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I believe the upheaval that is about to happen in Great Britain and all across the Europe, as well as throughout the world, will outweigh the benefits that Great Britain will gain from the separation. I think GB will regret this decision and begin to see those things they gained, as small and insignificant in the future. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Age, wisdom, and education were not prerequisites for voting to exit the EU.

The one thing, (and I do want to emphasize one) that the UK exit shared with Trump voters is this...



"...The higher the level of education, the higher the EU support
According the polls, university graduates were the most likely people to want to remain in the EU - while those with a GCSE or equivalent as their highest qualification were more likely to back Brexit.

This was a pattern that was reflected in the results..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...e-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/

 

[aTUfan]

I have a British friend who has experienced England pre and present eu. She thinks that in the long term, this is a good thing.

 

[URedskin54]

We'll see. I think they'll do alright with their existing relationships with the US, Canada, and Austrailia. Plus they'll definitely have more flexibility. It'll be years before they actually leave and much longer before we'll know if it worked out.

 

[WATU2]

I believe the upheaval that is about to happen in Great Britain and all across the Europe, as well as throughout the world, will outweigh the benefits that Great Britain will gain from the separation. I think GB will regret this decision and begin to see those things they gained, as small and insignificant in the future. I hope I'm wrong.

The demographics of the vote reflect that those who have to live with the results of the exit the longest wanted to stay.

After the vote was in Google recorded a huge surge of searches about what the effects of the exit would be. A sign that many voted without knowing much about the outcome?

 

[WATU2]

The vote was a democratic one, but whether is was a wise one is up for grabs. The campaign, however, evidently bears some resemblance to our own politics, or at least Trumpian politics.

I have a lot of friends living in the UK, both citizens and ex-pats. To a person the reaction is shock and dismay.

 

[TUBballJunkie]

After the vote was in Google recorded a huge surge of searches about what the effects of the exit would be. A sign that many voted without knowing much about the outcome?

I can't believe that headline didn't come from the Onion. I'm not sure where I fall on this but it certainly rings of a "Make Britain Great Again" when you read that info.

 

[URedskin54]

If Trump were a referendum on trade, immigration, and American sovereignty rather than an actual person I think we would likely see a result similar to Brexit.

It is interesting that the non-London social democrats essentially won the election for leave though. More than the "far-right" was needed.

 

[TUMe]

After the vote was in Google recorded a huge surge of searches about what the effects of the exit would be. A sign that many voted without knowing much about the outcome?

Are you saying that all those Google searches were from the UK? I'm sure many Americans Google it since it was slightly favored to go the other way. Unless Google had a country specific count, I'm sure every country had people searching when the stock markets crashed.

I would say your friends are representative of about half the people in the UK maybe more now, but half on Thursday.

 

[URedskin54]

The demographics of the vote reflect that those who have to live with the results of the exit the longest wanted to stay.

I've seen this line a lot and im not sure what the implication is. Does anyone actually think that was a motivator? That the older people went in thinking "well this is going to be a disaster but at least I'll be dead soon" and the younger voters were unlike any youth voters in the history of mankind and thought about more than the immediate benefits/negatives? Are we saying older means less rational voter because they don't have to live with the consequences of their votes? At what age should people no longer be allowed to vote? There seems to be a deification of young voters recently(at least in the American media) and I'm not real sure why. Is there some special knowledge and wisdom that the average 18 year old has to impart to the world that makes them more worthy of making electoral decisions?

 

[URedskin54]

Re: the Google trend data. Link

 

[TUMe]

Let's talk about these old codgers that voted leave

45-54...56 % leave...Most can still care for themselves
55-64...57 % leave...Many can still remember their spouse's birthday
65+......60% Leave...some remember what old folks home they are in.

WATU not to get personal, but you and I are Vietnam Vets. We are both over 45.

I would not have been a good voter for Brexit because I knew very little about it. I simply assumed it would fail. If I was able to vote I would have known more.

Got to go take my Geritol.

 

[lawpoke87]

I've read more nonsense the last few days about Google trends, comments about the age of voters etc. Seems there's. Large group of people who can't or won't face what drove the Brits to exit the EU. The dissatisfaction of working class people who despite the campaigns by both major parities and the financial backing of U.K.'s banking sector voted their conviction. Imagine if the American citizens were to vote against the wishes of the Dems, Reps and Wall Street. Odd to me that the Libs here in the states aren't rejoicing that working class citizens rose up and defeated the investment bankers in the name of living wages and sovereignty. Does their rejection of immigration policies which have negatively effected working Brits override everything else?

Btw....the leave vote carried England easily. Scotland's vote to stay was the only reason the final vote was within 4 points.

 

[aTUfan]

Maybe England was tired of carrying the rest of socialistic Europe.

 

[WATU2]

Are you saying that all those Google searches were from the UK? I'm sure many Americans Google it since it was slightly favored to go the other way. Unless Google had a country specific count, I'm sure every country had people searching when the stock markets crashed.

I would say your friends are representative of about half the people in the UK maybe more now, but half on Thursday.

If you had spent 30 seconds on Google you would have found out your assumption was wrong.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/06/brexit-google-search-trends-tech/

 

[URedskin54]

As the article I posted noted, the Google trend data wasn't indicative of anything other than what people always search for after a vote. Completely irrelevant

 

[eastcane]

Referendum by the masses is not the way to run a democracy, David Cameron narrowly escaped his first referendum call on Scotland's independence vote, but in the second he bought the bank. Worst British PM since Neville Chamberlain.

 

[TUMe]

If you had spent 30 seconds on Google you would have found out your assumption was wrong.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/06/brexit-google-search-trends-tech/

I get that you don't like the results of the vote. In fact it was a surprise. Quite normal in the computer age when there is a surprise for people hit the search engines with questions. I'll make another of my assumptions that Americans searched for Obamacare a few billion times.

I made two mistakes in my post. First I asked you a question. Second I said you friends in the UK were in half of the vote. It was 48 percent and thus in the minority, if not by much. I'm sure your friends are much smarter than the average voter, but as Obama has said elections have consequences. Besides, some of them may be too old [over 45 to have a say.] All of England and Wales voted to leave except for London. It is possible some of those people voted to leave had heard what they were voting for.

By the way, you probably spent more than 30 seconds finding that and posting it. Like most people in this country, I didn't and still don't have a dog in this fight. I will admit I have read more since the vote. BBC has had good coverage.

I repeat my initial post: Neither Trump nor Obama can tell the British what to do.

 

[WATU2]

Britian's new populist leadership...is there a lesson to be learned here? Promises are easy...
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...n-sacked-for-lying-twice-before-a7105976.html

 

[lawpoke87]

Referendum by the masses is not the way to run a democracy, David Cameron narrowly escaped his first referendum call on Scotland's independence vote, but in the second he bought the bank. Worst British PM since Neville Chamberlain.

Aren't referendums the purest form of democracy? Here in the U.S., we elect Presidents, Senators, Congressmen to represent us. However, more often than not they represent the money and special interests who control them instead of the people's interest. Referendums (at least in the UK) seem to bypass the influence of political parties and big money (the elite) and govern by the will of the majority. We can argue whether that will is beneficially to the country but I would argue that it is a true representation of the feelings of the populist as a whole and in this case the working class in Britian.

 

[WATU2]

Aren't referendums the purest form of democracy? Here in the U.S., we elect Presidents, Senators, Congressmen to represent us. However, more often than not they represent the money and special interests who control them instead of the people's interest. .

The founding fathers were extremely worried about the tyranny of majority and tried to strike a balance between the people's voice and representation. The Constitution is a notable effort in checks and balances. .

Brexit is an excellent example of the downside. If the vote were taken again today, my guess is that it would be reversed by a large margin.

 

[TU_BLA]

After the results, the PM said he wanted Brits to look a the EU arrangement and demand that the UK get more for its investment into it. He has now said several times that he never actually thought it would pass. Even the next guy (not Boris) started recanting on some of the statements and Brexit campaign promises such as "UK sends 350M LBs to EU per month. Shouldn't we put that towards national health". He is now saying there is no way of knowing if that money will go towards national health nor is that the amount they send. Many Brexit supporters used it as a referendum on immigration which has now somehow been turned into state supported racism. Indian, Pakistani, and Asians who have lived in the UK their entire lives and are citizens have reported widespread verbal (and some physical attacks) of being told "Have you made your plans to return home yet" and other such comments. Brits will have a harsh reality in a couple of years when they are paying a lot more $$$ for goods and the LB is nearly worthless versus the Euro when the rest of the EU sticks a ton of tariffs on British goods. And then there's Scotland...who is challenging the rights to oil rigs in the North Sea. Braveheart anyone?

 

[TU_BLA]

The founding fathers were extremely worried about the tyranny of majority and tried to strike a balance between the people's voice and representation. The Constitution is a notable effort in checks and balances. .

Brexit is an excellent example of the downside. If the vote were taken again today, my guess is that it would be reversed by a large margin.

There's a reason why 75% of the states have to approve an Amendment to the Constitution.

 

[TUBballJunkie]

The judicial branch is another generally useful check on mass referendums.

Fine (and dangerous) line between will of the people and tyranny of the majority.

 

[URedskin54]

Brexit is an excellent example of the downside. If the vote were taken again today, my guess is that it would be reversed by a large margin.

Not even close to in line with post referendum polling. One showed 1% of leavers dissatisfied, and 4% of remainers satisfied. Another showed 7% of leavers regretful of their vote, and 4% of remainders regretful of their vote.

"Brexit" will be blamed for every bit of poor economic news for around five years, related or not, and will also get blamed for everything from terrorism to global warming. Some will be true. Much will be ridiculous.

 

[lawpoke87]

The founding fathers were extremely worried about the tyranny of majority and tried to strike a balance between the people's voice and representation. The Constitution is a notable effort in checks and balances. .

Brexit is an excellent example of the downside. If the vote were taken again today, my guess is that it would be reversed by a large margin.

The founding fathers never envisioned the day where huge corporations and PACs would control our elected officials. I'm more worried about the tyranny of the elite than that of the masses. For someone who has consistently railed against Wall Street, I'm surprised you're not more supportive when the people rise up and act independently of the interests of the special interests.

 

[aTUfan]

The judicial branch is another generally useful check on mass referendums.

Fine (and dangerous) line between will of the people and tyranny of the majority.

Too bad that in now divides more along political line than consideration for the law and the Constitution

 

[lawpoke87]

Not even close to in line with post referendum polling. One showed 1% of leavers dissatisfied, and 4% of remainers satisfied. Another showed 7% of leavers regretful of their vote, and 4% of remainders regretful of their vote.

"Brexit" will be blamed for every bit of poor economic news for around five years, related or not, and will also get blamed for everything from terrorism to global warming. Some will be true. Much will be ridiculous.

Are these the same polls which showed "Stay" winning the referendum by anywhere from 4 to 12 points the day before the vote?

 

[URedskin54]

Lol I would guess not.

This was one. It also shows that sovereignty was leave voters' primary concern. Immigration was a distant second, though the two aren't mutually exclusive. Also interesting is that another poll shows 30% of Muslim voters went leave

http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/sunday-mirror-post-referendum-poll/

 

[aTUfan]

Judging from the reactions in the eu and here, socialist favored England staying.

 

[lawpoke87]

Judging from the reactions in the eu and here, socialist favored England staying.

Which is odd seeing the majority of the leave supporters were from the working class who blamed the EU's policies for wage stagnation while banking and other corporate interest threw huge amounts of money behind the stay side.