New tax on number of miles you drive?

[shon46]

So if they implemented this tax, wouldn’t they have to have a method to track your movements? I doubt the honor system would work!

New tax on number of miles you drive? Incoming Transportation Secretary Buttigieg likes the idea

Buttigieg endorsed moving to a vehicle miles traveled (VMT) system as a presidential candidate.

justthenews.com

 

[HuffyCane]

They’ve been pushing that crap since Carter and the 55 mph speed limit. It would cause radical inflation and put millions out of work. But in an era of abolish the Electoral College and move everyone to cities on the coasts, I’m sure it will get some traction.

 

[aTUfan]

Is it 1984? Big brother is watching.

And maybe they can get family members to turn in the ones that don't comply.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

That is a BS tax that has to be a double taxation, somehow.

 

[04Watu]

Insurance companies are already selling coverage based on tracking both how far you drive and how you drive by placing a tracker in your car. That trend will likely expand.

It's interesting that people get upset about the government discussing alternatives that the private sector is already doing. Take the 'death panel' argument against single payer, government organized insurance. Meanwhile private sector insurance companies routinely reject claims, especially expensive ones, and the compensation of employees and profits of these companies depend on rejecting these claims.

 

[shon46]

Insurance companies are already selling coverage based on tracking both how far you drive and how you drive by placing a tracker in your car. That trend will likely expand.

It's interesting that people get upset about the government discussing alternatives that the private sector is already doing. Take the 'death panel' argument against single payer, government organized insurance. Meanwhile private sector insurance companies routinely reject claims, especially expensive ones, and the compensation of employees and profits of these companies depend on rejecting these claims.

I get to choose which private insurance company I do business with. The question is why do you think the government should get into this business?

 

[HuffyCane]

Insurance companies are already selling coverage based on tracking both how far you drive and how you drive by placing a tracker in your car. That trend will likely expand.

It's interesting that people get upset about the government discussing alternatives that the private sector is already doing. Take the 'death panel' argument against single payer, government organized insurance. Meanwhile private sector insurance companies routinely reject claims, especially expensive ones, and the compensation of employees and profits of these companies depend on rejecting these claims.

Because a massive portion of our economy depends on over the road trucking. You’re going to let Amazon knock down all the big box stores over the course of ten years and one pandemic, then make them charge me sales tax on a purchase AND have the seller pass on the tax associated with the delivery miles to boot? This is how/why the Tea Party became a thing.

 

[Clong83a]

They already have this in a de facto way. It's a gas tax. You can basically get around it by driving a more efficient car.

But the Buttigieg plan wasn't to double tax. It's actually to eliminate the gas tax altogether and replace it with a "fairer" VMT. The idea being that a Tesla causes as much road wear and tear as any other car, so why is it exempt from paying into the National Highway Trust Fund?

But yeah, privacy concerns and the logistics of implementation make it a hard sell. I don't think it's going anywhere, but we will see. More than likely, they'll just end up increasing the gas tax to offset taxation losses from more efficient cars.

In any case, that was part of his presidential campaign. He didn't win the presidency, Biden did. And I don't think Biden is for a VMT, and so I doubt Buttigieg will be pushing hard for it as Sec. of Transportation.

 

[HuffyCane]

They already have this in a de facto way. It's a gas tax. You can basically get around it by driving a more efficient car.

But the Buttigieg plan wasn't to double tax. It's actually to eliminate the gas tax altogether and replace it with a "fairer" VMT. The idea being that a Tesla causes as much road wear and tear as any other car, so why is it exempt from paying into the National Highway Trust Fund?

But yeah, privacy concerns and the logistics of implementation make it a hard sell. I don't think it's going anywhere, but we will see. More than likely, they'll just end up increasing the gas tax to offset taxation losses from more efficient cars.

In any case, that was part of his presidential campaign. He didn't win the presidency, Biden did. And I don't think Biden is for a VMT, and so I doubt Buttigieg will be pushing hard for it as Sec. of Transportation.

If that’s true, they will give him his honeymoon then put him to work doing what he was brought to do: Hold the bucket for the WH at DOT while the experienced sub cabinet folks teach him that running a government is more than union deals and filling pot holes. Job 2 will be giving speeches at fundraisers in key Congressional districts.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

They already have this in a de facto way. It's a gas tax. You can basically get around it by driving a more efficient car.

But the Buttigieg plan wasn't to double tax. It's actually to eliminate the gas tax altogether and replace it with a "fairer" VMT. The idea being that a Tesla causes as much road wear and tear as any other car, so why is it exempt from paying into the National Highway Trust Fund?

But yeah, privacy concerns and the logistics of implementation make it a hard sell. I don't think it's going anywhere, but we will see. More than likely, they'll just end up increasing the gas tax to offset taxation losses from more efficient cars.

In any case, that was part of his presidential campaign. He didn't win the presidency, Biden did. And I don't think Biden is for a VMT, and so I doubt Buttigieg will be pushing hard for it as Sec. of Transportation.

Besides, you can't build our roads with our taxpayer dollars, and then tax us again to use that thing paid for with our taxpayer dollars. That's double taxation. Our roads are a service that should be free of taxation. On a local level that would be similar to us paying for fire and police service, which is paid for by our taxpayer dollars. The gas tax is a tax on a product not produced by our taxes.

 

[lawpoke87]

If you drive much across Oklahoma one might argue we already pay based on miles driven. We do love our toll roads after all.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

If you drive much across Oklahoma one might argue we already pay based on miles driven. We do love our toll roads after all.

Yeah, but those roads don't receive federal or state funding for upkeep as far as I know. The only issue there would be it having been originally been built by the state in some cases.

 

[Clong83a]

Besides, you can't build our roads with our taxpayer dollars, and then tax us again to use that thing paid for with our taxpayer dollars. That's double taxation. Our roads are a service that should be free of taxation. On a local level that would be similar to us paying for fire and police service, which is paid for by our taxpayer dollars. The gas tax is a tax on a product not produced by our taxes.

I could be wrong, but I thought the gas tax was the primary way the feds gather money to build and maintain the highway system through the trust fund. But they could be getting allocations from income taxes too, I suppose. Or are you arguing that it should all come from income taxes and shouldn't put an extra onus on individual users? I'd respect that argument. I am not sure I totally agree, but I guess I've never really thought about it that way.

In any case, I will clarify my phrasing: His proposal was for a total replacement of an existing tax, not an additional one in parallel with the old one. In that sense alone, it was not a "double" tax.

A VMT is a nice idea in theory to replace the gas tax, but I don't think implementation is very practical and it raises privacy issues as others have noted. I don't support the idea.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I could be wrong, but I thought the gas tax was the primary way the feds gather money to build and maintain the highway system through the trust fund. But they could be getting allocations from income taxes too, I suppose. Or are you arguing that it should all come from income taxes and shouldn't put an extra onus on individual users? I'd respect that argument. I am not sure I totally agree, but I guess I've never really thought about it that way.

In any case, I will clarify my phrasing: His proposal was for a total replacement of an existing tax, not an additional one in parallel with the old one. In that sense alone, it was not a "double" tax.

A VMT is a nice idea in theory to replace the gas tax, but I don't think implementation is very practical and it raises privacy issues as others have noted. I don't support the idea.

I quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote Huffycane's post before you. I didn't notice this was a new post, and didn't read it at the time. I didn't realize that it was a replacement tax for the gas tax. So x out my whole post on the issue. Was distracted at the time, having to deal with people at the vet. Was taking in my neighbors pet(for her) to be put to sleep. My apologies.

 

[URedskin54]

Watu always has the same perplexed “I don’t understand why you’re not ok with the government doing x, when businesses also do x.” I’m not sure if it’s playing dumb or just no desire to understand different views on the role of government. Setting aside whether or not this would be good policy, if it requires monitoring where a person is driving for example, it’s pretty obvious why the reaction to the government tracking you would be different than if it’s Garmin. And that’s why people are worried when these companies do decide to share information with the government

 

[Gmoney4WW]

The closer we get to primary use of cars that run on electric etc., they will have to include a tax on road usage, or an additional tax on whatever is being used for an energy source in cars. Plugs could be jimmied if they put a sensor in them to tell if it was being used to charge a car. Plus we'd have to put in a sensor communication method with the electric company. That all seems a bit complicated, but so are sensors to determine how many miles you have driven on a federally funded road.

 

[HuffyCane]

The closer we get to primary use of cars that run on electric etc., they will have to include a tax on road usage, or an additional tax on whatever is being used for an energy source in cars. Plugs could be jimmied if they put a sensor in them to tell if it was being used to charge a car. Plus we'd have to put in a sensor communication method with the electric company. That all seems a bit complicated, but so are sensors to determine how many miles you have driven on a federally funded road.

Tell me where I need to go to find a mobbed up mechanic that will jimmy the sensor so I pay nothing and the government thinks Rippin or Doug Wojick is driving my car and charging them accordingly.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Tell me where I need to go to find a mobbed up mechanic that will jimmy the sensor so I pay nothing and the government thinks Rippin or Doug Wojick is driving my car and charging them accordingly.

Was talking about a setup where you had to use a federally mandated/licensed/etc cable that had a sensor at your home. That sensor would send a message that you were charging a car, to the electric company. So they wouldn't be charging you energy tax for using your electric toothbrush!

Weren't talking bout an auto charging station. It would take a really mobbed up mechanic to do a house call & send a message that it wasn't your house, and to charge Rippin/Wojick.

 

[cmullinsTU]

Was talking about a setup where you had to use a federally mandated/licensed/etc cable that had a sensor at your home. That sensor would send a message that you were charging a car, to the electric company. So they wouldn't be charging you energy tax for using your electric toothbrush!

Weren't talking bout an auto charging station. It would take a really mobbed up mechanic to do a house call & send a message that it wasn't your house, and to charge Rippin/Wojick.

I’m not for or against this tax replacement. However, I don’t see why a tax like this needs to be a big invasion of privacy. Most states require annual inspections and mileage is indicated on those reports. Could use those numbers and then the government wouldn’t be tracking our location.

 

[URedskin54]

I’m not for or against this tax replacement. However, I don’t see why a tax like this needs to be a big invasion of privacy. Most states require annual inspections and mileage is indicated on those reports. Could use those numbers and then the government wouldn’t be tracking our location.

At least I won't be alone in being two years behind on my tag anymore

 

[astonmartin708]

Yeah, but those roads don't receive federal or state funding for upkeep as far as I know. The only issue there would be it having been originally been built by the state in some cases.

To be fair, the condition of those roads is garbage regardless of where their money comes from.

 

[TU Man]

I believe this tax would be detrimental to those who don’t earn much.

can you picture someone getting a “lump sum” bill once a year for a few hundred dollars with no way to pay it? At least the gas tax is “as you go”.

Anyway, I’m freaking sick of people who have never had a non-government job (like Petey), coming up with dumbass ideas that real working people need to abide by. But such is life with politicians.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I believe this tax would be detrimental to those who don’t earn much.

can you picture someone getting a “lump sum” bill once a year for a few hundred dollars with no way to pay it? At least the gas tax is “as you go”.

Anyway, I’m freaking sick of people who have never had a non-government job (like Petey), coming up with dumbass ideas that real working people need to abide by. But such is life with politicians.

It solves a real problem that users of roads won't be paying for road upkeep of roads they are utilizing. They have probably raised the gas tax a little bit to account for the small # of cars that run on electricity. Those increases will get larger and larger, as the electric car takes up a larger segment of car sales. Would you rather only those not converting to electric continue to get a higher and higher gas tax to cover the bill for the upkeep, and those driving an electric car get off scott free on the tax? Whether it's a road usage tax or an energy tax on whatever energy you are using, something will need to be done to stop sticking cars running on gas from footing the entire bill.

I would think whatever is the cheapest route would be best. If the overhead on converting to a road usage tax pays itself off in so many years and costs less to maintain & collect the taxes, then start the conversion. If creating a system to tax electric and/or whatever sources begin to take up larger segments of the car industry, is cheaper to implement and collect a tax on, then do it. I wouldn't want them to charge a tax for upkeep of roads, realizing afterwords that meant a 20% higher tax, because we chose the higher cost collection method.

Why would they charge it annually? Toll roads don't charge you annually, they charge you monthly. But even if they did, then you would just calculate the gas tax you would have been paying, and put that aside as often as you need to. Weekly, monthly, quarterly, whatever method works best for your practical habits.

 

[TUMe]

How many on here have electric cars? I remember at one time WATU did. Don’t rememeerkat anyone else saying they did at that time.

 

[TU_BLA]

I get to choose which private insurance company I do business with. The question is why do you think the government should get into this business?

It's a revenue stream and possibly a way to encourage more public transit options, especially in places like Tulsa. Also, the same way companies are taxed for greenhouse gas emissions over a certain level (I believe they term it buying carbon emissions credits...whatever the term is, it's a tax on usage), this sounds similar except instead of companies, it taxes drivers. Where this will really hit is the trucking industry.

And I don't really think it has you and me in mind. We're small potatoes in this. This is geared towards trucking and other such industries with a push to lower emissions. I can see CNG or hybrid credits as well. GM has already announced they plan to be 100% carbon neutral in 15 years both in the cars they manufacture and their plant ops. Companies are moving in this direction anyway (except for oil and gas) because the writing has been on the wall for 25 years plus.

 

[TU_BLA]

How many on here have electric cars? I remember at one time WATU did. Don’t rememeerkat anyone else saying they did at that time.

I have a hybrid. I can't say I notice much difference in the gas consumption though.

 

[shon46]

This tax would not be helping the environment. My next door neighbor works for BMW and is one of their engineers. He told me BMW has been in the Electric car business for decades but never pushed it because the cost to change the infrastructure was enormous and the appetite to move away from petrol was never there. He stated that each country would have to find a way to significantly increase electrical output via new power plants or nuclear energy. Every house would have to be retrofitted with the proper electrical outlets allowing you to charge your car at home. Every city would have to undergo massive infrastructure upgrades which have an astronomical price tag associated with those endeavors. Additionally, mining for copper would need to quadruple from its current levels in order to produce the cable needed. That effort would be detrimental to the environment. He stated the auto conglomerates do have a strategy for mass production of electric cars in Europe but unless new energy sources are created, the implementation will be extremely slow. If only cold fusion existed!

 

[Gmoney4WW]

How many on here have electric cars? I remember at one time WATU did. Don’t rememeerkat anyone else saying they did at that time.

So electric cars comprised .32% of the cars on the road at the end of 2019. I guess we need to wait until that reaches what 2%, 5%, 10%. So do you start planning before it reaches a noticeable percentage that causes the gas tax to be raised. Or do you just leave those driving gas powered auto's footing the bill for a few years. A sensible thing would seem to be to study methods at this point, and instate them in a couple of years, such that there is no period in which gas powered auto's cover any increased cost in the tax.

It would be an incentive to buy an electric or other powered vehicle though, if you leave it until the percentage reaches 5 or 7%. People would buy an electric car to avoid that tax increase, and actually to avoid the tax altogether.

Nobody said this was good for the environment. It just reallocates who pays for the road upkeep. Taxing electric or any other form of energy, when used for charging vehicles is more efficient on it's surface, because it moves with the use of those energy utilizations. But underneath, it might not be the most efficient way. The technologies and ways it would need to be implemented might cause it to be a less efficient method. It needs to be looked at, before we go willy nilly with one implementation or another.

 

[HuffyCane]

This tax would not be helping the environment. My next door neighbor works for BMW and is one of their engineers. He told me BMW has been in the Electric car business for decades but never pushed it because the cost to change the infrastructure was enormous and the appetite to move away from petrol was never there. He stated that each country would have to find a way to significantly increase electrical output via new power plants or nuclear energy. Every house would have to be retrofitted with the proper electrical outlets allowing you to charge your car at home. Every city would have to undergo massive infrastructure upgrades which have an astronomical price tag associated with those endeavors. Additionally, mining for copper would need to quadruple from its current levels in order to produce the cable needed. That effort would be detrimental to the environment. He stated the auto conglomerates do have a strategy for mass production of electric cars in Europe but unless new energy sources are created, the implementation will be extremely slow. If only cold fusion existed!

The Chinese have been quietly gobbling up cooper mines and rights for years. Meanwhile, we argue over whether to forgive student loans for $100K dance degrees.

 

[lawpoke87]

The Chinese have been quietly gobbling up cooper mines and rights for years. Meanwhile, we argue over whether to forgive student loans for $100K dance degrees.

China owning our future doesn't buy votes.

 

[shon46]

China owning our future doesn't buy votes.

The Panama model is a great way to understand the China long game. Decades ago, China flooded Panama with Chinese male construction workers offering to assist to build up the infrastructure at not cost. The only stipulation was that the constitution workers would permanently remain in Panama after the work was completed. We are talking 10,000 plus Chinese males. They then intermingled with the locals and had Chinese Panamanian children. When those kids reached college age, they hand picked those kids to go to Chinese Universities and then returned to Panama. You now have many Panamanian Chinese politicians ranging from Mayors to senior politicians. They are doing the same thing in Africa. We play checkers, they play GO!

 

[TU Man]

I have never seen any research as to whether the mining for copper and the mining for lithium and the energy used mining and constructing green things is really much of a net benefit??

 

[URedskin54]

I have never seen any research as to whether the mining for copper and the mining for lithium and the energy used mining and constructing green things is really much of a net benefit??

It does allow us to shift our carbon output onto 3rd world countries while feeling very good about ourselves for going green. I suppose that’s a benefit

 

[HuffyCane]

The Panama model is a great way to understand the China long game. Decades ago, China flooded Panama with Chinese male construction workers offering to assist to build up the infrastructure at not cost. The only stipulation was that the constitution workers would permanently remain in Panama after the work was completed. We are talking 10,000 plus Chinese males. They then intermingled with the locals and had Chinese Panamanian children. When those kids reached college age, they hand picked those kids to go to Chinese Universities and then returned to Panama. You now have many Panamanian Chinese politicians ranging from Mayors to senior politicians. They are doing the same thing in Africa. We play checkers, they play GO!

That’s less of a long term strategy on world wide control of strategically important chemicals/commodities as it is a short term strategy for providing employment for an excess number of educated middle class young men with no employment opportunities. One of the byproducts of thirty years of the one child/male child policy is guys come out of college without a woman to marry and difficulty finding employment. Social tension/friction quickly results.

One of China’s biggest economic challenges is expanding their economy enough every year to accommodate that years crop of newly minted discontented men of military age.

It’s a real problem. They have built free soccer stadiums in countless countries because they need some place to send their crappy engineers and sons of construction company owners.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

That’s less of a long term strategy on world wide control of strategically important chemicals/commodities as it is a short term strategy for providing employment for an excess number of educated middle class young men with no employment opportunities. One of the byproducts of thirty years of the one child/male child policy is guys come out of college without a woman to marry and difficulty finding employment. Social tension/friction quickly results.

One of China’s biggest economic challenges is expanding their economy enough every year to accommodate that years crop of newly minted discontented men of military age.

It’s a real problem. They have built free soccer stadiums in countless countries because they need some place to send their crappy engineers and sons of construction company owners.

Two birds, one stone.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I’m not for or against this tax replacement. However, I don’t see why a tax like this needs to be a big invasion of privacy. Most states require annual inspections and mileage is indicated on those reports. Could use those numbers and then the government wouldn’t be tracking our location.

Paying double tax on a local, state, and federal level?