Haith and Mizzou
- Thread starter ctt8410
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I thought that if they put sanctions on him for violations at MU that those sanction could follow him.
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Haith, if found at fault could be sanctioned via vacation of wins, suspension, limits on off campus recruiting trips. However, he has apparently been cleared of any wrongdoing. The next key is apparently TU and Haith did not find out about this until this past February. Mizzou's AD didn't tell Haith or anyone at the time the NCAA notified the Mizzou. Kim Anderson said he wasn't aware of the NCAA issue at the time he was hired and took the job. Seems Mizzou was hiding something.
Erie the similarities between him coming to Mizzou and TU. Miami was under investigation by the NCAA for major violations in its basketball program when Haith took the Mizzou job. Neither Haith or Miami informed Mizzou about the violations or NCAA investigation. Might explain why Mizzou kept quiet when Haith was interviewing at Tulsa about similar violations. One difference is that Haith certainly knew of the violations when took the Mizzou job yet kept quiet. There's no evidence to date that he knew of Mizzou's investigation.
Another half of shooting like that game against Cincy and none of this will matter. He will be gone on merit alone. Forget about reputation or appearances.
Yeah, basketball players smoking pot. That sounds really unusual.
Sports Illustrated, Yahoo, SBNation, NBC Sports and probably a lot more are calling for Haith to be punished. I really doubt that if this continues Haith will not be investigated, at the very least, by the NCAA. Missouri penalized themselves to try to limit the damage. But that will not be the end of it. 3 level 1 violations and 11 level 2 violations. And this with a coach who has been twice sanctioned before by the NCAA. This isn't going away.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the NCAA has publicly stated that he is cleared or that there are no further investigations. I know Missouri has spoken, but he is no longer a Missouri employee and they might not go down that road.
We have a pretty good class coming in, hope that doesn't warrant, under the microscope, ncaa attention. But if it does, I hope the NCAA investigates, finds nothing, and moves on. Maybe then, everybody shuts their trap, and forgets about it. I assume there will be a little bad mouthing going on in the recruiting game about Haith for awhile.
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I'm telling you they already looked at this. It isn't a criminal prosecution. They don't clear anyone of charges. He had his own legal representation and the investigation is apparently complete. From what I've gathered, this is over.
You are probably much better informed than I am so I will yield. [no sarcasm]
At very least there is PR damage. Hopefully, it will die down soon.
There is PR damage. The big one is the Yahoo article. If you will recall, Yahoo spent a fortune trying to take down the entire Miami athletic program several years ago. Most of that went nowhere. They don't like Haith because he was part of that.
Haith could go the Mike Price route and and sue them. But maybe it's better not to be Mike Price.
I have questions, too. I always thought this was weird for all. The TU hiring process needs an overhaul. It has since Buzz and Keith Burns. We are spending a lot on this staff for questionable returns. Maybe we don't want anything to do with NCAA issues.
Then again, we hired someone who had been accused before and rightly or wrongly, people will assume he's a rule breaker. That said, there is a leap in logic to assume wrongdoing at TU when we are recruiting pretty much the exact level of recruit we always have. We certainly aren't breaking any NCAA rules on free throw shooting. It's a weird deal. The PR damage is hard to calculate here.
Haith could go the Mike Price route and and sue them. But maybe it's better not to be Mike Price.
I have questions, too. I always thought this was weird for all. The TU hiring process needs an overhaul. It has since Buzz and Keith Burns. We are spending a lot on this staff for questionable returns. Maybe we don't want anything to do with NCAA issues.
Then again, we hired someone who had been accused before and rightly or wrongly, people will assume he's a rule breaker. That said, there is a leap in logic to assume wrongdoing at TU when we are recruiting pretty much the exact level of recruit we always have. We certainly aren't breaking any NCAA rules on free throw shooting. It's a weird deal. The PR damage is hard to calculate here.
Is it a topic in the Tulsa media?
My fellow Okies down here have had zero idea what I was talking about when I brought it up. Maybe I'll poll SEC people next.
But as far as widespread PR damage it's certainly not on the general sports radar a state south...
My fellow Okies down here have had zero idea what I was talking about when I brought it up. Maybe I'll poll SEC people next.
But as far as widespread PR damage it's certainly not on the general sports radar a state south...
(To be fair Mizzou doesn't seem to be on anyone's radar about *anything* down here.)
I whole heartedly agree with both Gold and BBJ that it implies nothing about the current behavior of TU. In fact, we have a strong record of compliance [except for the invisible track team] and of not tolerating violations. It has been discussed some in the local media by The World and Channel 6 with "while Haith was coach" and his picture. Gold has a great point that the greatest danger is that Yahoo or some other national media might try to make a crusade against Haith.
While it steals a bit of the glow from taking a SEC coach, if there are no further revelations, we will be able to get back to winning games and recruiting players.
While it steals a bit of the glow from taking a SEC coach, if there are no further revelations, we will be able to get back to winning games and recruiting players.
My fear is that there will be a small army of NCAA infraction investigators hanging around campus for months. That in and of itself can cause damage to the program. We have to give the fans, alums, players and recruits the idea we are a squeeky clean program and our coaching staff is above any wrongdoing.
IMO
IMO
I disagree. The NCAA has dealt with those who have broken the rules. Just ask Bob Wade, Norm Sloan, Todd Bozeman, Clem Haskins, Dave Bliss, Kelvin Sampson, Bob Senderoff, Neil McCarthy, Bruce Pearl, Brad Greenberg, Gib Arnold and other coaches who have been given a "Show Cause" penalty. If Haith had been a repeat offender at Miami and Mizzou he would have been slapped with that right away.
At this point I think we can say that he is not a rule breaker and instead has some problems with three students and one coach.
The NCAA isn't coming to town unless accusations have been made toward our program. I don't see any reason to worry.
Assuming Haitth learned his lesson at Miami and didn't direct $10k in hush money to the booster then he should escape any type of discipline by the NCAA. That payment was what got him in trouble with the NCAA. One would have to think that Haith knows another series of violation at a third school would end his career as a D1 HC. He hasn't won enough at this point for a fourth school to overlook a third strike. I wouldn't be overly concerned with our program.
Assuming Haitth learned his lesson at Miami and didn't direct $10k in hush money to the booster then he should escape any type of discipline by the NCAA. That payment was what got him in trouble with the NCAA. One would have to think that Haith knows another series of violation at a third school would end his career as a D1 HC. He hasn't won enough at this point for a fourth school to overlook a third strike. I wouldn't be overly concerned with our program.
He paid off Nevin Shapiro with hush money. He's absolutely a rule breaker. The only question is whether TU fans care.
Some of you are very negative. Just stop it.
The investigation is complete and Haith was not implicated. Some of you seem to be disappointed.
As for yahoo, they are near bankruptcy so nothing surprises me about their lack of journalistic integrity or competence.
http://nypost.com/2016/01/16/marissa-mayer-yahoo-fend-off-shareholders-fiery-attack/
The investigation is complete and Haith was not implicated. Some of you seem to be disappointed.
As for yahoo, they are near bankruptcy so nothing surprises me about their lack of journalistic integrity or competence.
http://nypost.com/2016/01/16/marissa-mayer-yahoo-fend-off-shareholders-fiery-attack/
Let's go back to the Shapiro thing...Shapiro is a bad dude, basically a mafia-like booster associated with Miami. Haith got popped for OK'ing a $10k payment to Shapiro because Shapiro was about to spill the beans of all his illegal activity involved with Miami football and basketball. Essentially, Shapiro wasn't getting what he wanted and he blackmailed UM coaches. That is what I recall and take from that whole situation.
Fast forward- Mizzou's internal investigation will likely be the one the NCAA uses. Mizzou is seemingly falling in the sword and throwing their compliance dept. under the bus. Haith's name is not mentioned and not implicated as a source for the lack of compliance. If Mizzou doesn't name the actual coaches as a source of non-compliance, it is likely that the NCAA doesn't as well.
Not to justify Haith's actions or non actions at Mizzou, but over zealous boosters are a problem in college athletics. If I recall correctly this happened at Oklahoma in football a few years back. A top notch QB was paid by a car dealership for basically nothing or no work. I don't recall Bob Stoops being questioned as far as whether he should remain as the HC at OU.
Since Haith has been cleared ( it appears) does this fall into the same category as Bob Stoops situation? Over zealous booster causes problem at college program. It happens.
I agree with Gold that this is a PR problem for Haith and thus Tulsa.
I do care, but I'm not sure I would go as far as supporting a change at the HC.
Just my 2 cents....
GO TU!!!
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It was 2 players in Stoops case...Rhett Bomar, super QB, and a DL if my memory is serving me correctly. OU cut ties with the players and the booster immediately. Maybe they got 2 years probation because it was a self-reported thing.
Those are just people with an axe to grind. Haith should only be punished if the NCAA implicates him in something. I'm not sure why they are writing these stories when Haith wasn't named by Mizzou in their report, and the NCAA had yet to put out its own report on the matter.
If they find Haith guilty of violations, then write about it. But from what Gragg and Haith's attorney have said, it doesn't look like that's going to happen.
This column in the St. Louis paper the other day was pretty good. It takes a more unbiased approach, mentioning Haith may not have even known Mizzou had received a letter of inquiry...and the NCAA would be looking very hard at Haith in this matter, so the fact that he doesn't seem implicated is very telling....
FROM STL TODAY...
So, here sits Mizzou basketball, in its worst spot since the Ricky Clemons saga turned an entire university on its head in 2003.
Kim Anderson's 17-31 start certainly leaves him open for criticism. But those shouting for his job should acknowledge the coach, along with new athletics director Mack Rhoades, had nothing to do with this. They announced the news together Wednesday. Others should share the blame.
Frank Haith: Fans and media are ripping Haith, as they would any other non-blue-blood coach who twice left the scene of NCAA crimes before the program had to suffer the consequences.
Yet the guy remains pretty much untouchable. It's impressive, considering the NCAA now operates under bylaws designed to hold head coaches accountable for the actions of their entire staff.
Haith appeared to dodge a bullet when the NCAA mangled its Miami investigation, a widespread case that included recruiting allegations tied to Haith's time there. He caught only a five-game suspension at Mizzou for failure to promote an atmosphere of compliance at his previous stop.
Haith didn't even get clipped this time. His lawyer said he has been cleared in the investigation. Tulsa's athletics director defended his man.
Mizzou's 19-month joint investigation started with a notice of inquiry it received on April 14, 2014. Haith was introduced as Tulsa's head coach four days later. It should be noted that Mizzou might not have informed Haith it had the letter. There is a chance mounting pressure led him to Tulsa before he knew the NCAA was coming. Regardless, the timing fits the popular image of a Haith hit-and-run.
But consider this: As much as Tiger fans dislike Haith, the NCAA must dislike him more. It missed a chance to drop a hammer on him in the Miami case, and repeat offenders become top targets. Coaches can now receive the wrath even if they have since moved on to another school. See what happened to former Tennessee coach Donnie Tyndall, who was fired by the Vols for violations committed at Southern Miss before he switched jobs. If the NCAA had significant dirt on Haith at Mizzou, it would not have let him off the hook. Tulsa would be feeling the pressure.
"Coaches can now receive the wrath even if they have since moved on to another school."
I'm now talking about coaches in general, when I say, of course they should receive the wrath for what they have done, even if they leave the school. The N in NCAA stands for National. I hope Haith comes out okay. But the NCAA should have the "You can run but you can't hide" rule as long as they are at a NCAA school.
I'm now talking about coaches in general, when I say, of course they should receive the wrath for what they have done, even if they leave the school. The N in NCAA stands for National. I hope Haith comes out okay. But the NCAA should have the "You can run but you can't hide" rule as long as they are at a NCAA school.
Adrian Peterson was involved in the Big Red Sports and Imports snafu as well... Something about free use of a Mercedes for over a semester...
From Seth Davis of SI...
On the surface, last week’s report issued jointly by the NCAA and the University of Missouri should have been good news for Frank Haith. Even though his former employer imposed a postseason ban for violations that were partly committed under Haith’s watch, Haith, who is currently in his second season as head coach at Tulsa, was not cited in the report and will not face any penalties.
And yet, that is not how last week’s developments are being viewed by the media and the public. This is, after all, Haith’s second go-round with the NCAA’s meat grinder. He served a five-game suspension at the beginning of the 2013-14 season because of violations that occurred during his previous stop at Miami. Not only did some of the violations at Missouri occur while Haith was in charge, but they were aided in part by his close friend and former assistant, Tim Fuller, who was slapped with a minor violation. And because the Missouri case still has to go before the Committee on Infractions, Haith is unable to speak publicly and defend himself. So he has to zip his lips while being held up as a public pinata. That can’t be easy.
The heart of this case is an internship program conducted by a Missouri grad named Mark Tuley, a mid-level donor who is the founder of a national intelligence company based in Martinez, Georgia. Tuley hosted Missouri players for jobs during the summers of 2013 and ’14. These arrangements are common in college athletics, and they are kosher as long as they meet a few barometers: The opportunities have to be available to non-athletes, the athletes need to be paid a standard market rate, and the work has to be real. At the conclusion of its 19-month investigation, the NCAA decided the jobs did not meet those standards. That is the only Level I (i.e. major) violation levied against Missouri in this report.
But is that Haith’s fault? Technically, no. It is not the head coach’s duty to vet internships. Rather, that falls to a university’s compliance office. The compliance personnel at Missouri did their due diligence at the outset, but they did not follow up by collecting pay stubs and W-2 forms from the players when they returned to Missouri. That’s why the NCAA also gave Missouri a Level II violation for failure to monitor but did not penalize Haith.
On the other hand, given what happened at Miami (in which booster Nevin Shapiro admitted to giving basketball players and their families cash and to merchandise, among other violations) wasn’t it in Haith’s interest to be absolutely sure that these jobs were on the up and up? Shouldn’t he have been on the phone with his players to make certain that the situation wouldn’t become a problem in the eyes of the NCAA? If he didn’t want to ask Jordan Clarkson and Tony Criswell, the two players who worked for Tuley in the summer of 2013, then he could have asked his graduate assistant, Ricky Bolton, who, according to two sources with direct knowledge of this matter, also worked for Tuley that summer. Bolton is Haith’s nephew, and he is currently serving on Haith’s staff at Tulsa as a strength and conditioning coordinator.
On the other other hand, it is perfectly plausible that Haith did have those conversations and concluded the jobs met the NCAA’s standards. Tuley has not been heard from publicly since the report was issued (the university has been ordered to permanently disassociate itself from him), but from what I am told, he was not entirely cooperative with the NCAA. He did meet with NCAA investigators, but he did not participate in follow-up interviews, and he did not turn over all the information they requested. So it is possible that Tuley maintains, and Haith honestly believed, that those athletes did proper work and were paid accordingly.
Fuller was also the point person on another player who plays a major role in this report, Jakeenan Gant, a 6'8" sophomore forward from Springfield, Ga. Toward the end of his senior year in high school in 2014, Gant’s family wanted to move from Georgia to Missouri, partly because it was not clear that Gant was on track to be academically eligible. Fuller connected them with a different booster who helped arrange rental housing for them, a Level III violation. The Gant family’s move is what initially raised the interest of the NCAA. Unlike Clarkson and Criswell, who are no longer playing college basketball, Gant is required to meet with the NCAA’s investigators. It was during that interview that he revealed the internship he did with Tuley during the summer of 2014, apparently unaware that he was disclosing a major violation.
As a result, Gant had to sit out the first nine games of his freshman season. Fuller, who was retained by Haith’s successor, Kim Anderson, at the behest of then-athletic director Mike Alden, was prohibited from recruiting for three months while Missouri looked into the matter. When last season ended, Fuller was not retained. He is currently not working in coaching.
Haith, meanwhile, had bolted for Tulsa four days after the school received its official notice of inquiry from the NCAA on April 14, 2014. That move looked odd at the time, and while it is plausible that Haith did not know about the letter of inquiry, it is also plausible that he knew the NCAA was poking around Gant’s recruitment and decided to get out of Dodge. Last week, Anderson revealed that when he interviewed for the head coaching job, Alden did not inform him that the school had received the notice of inquiry. That was highly unethical on Alden’s part, and it sheds further light on why Missouri’s athletic department wound up in this situation.
When an investigation gets launched, it can go one of two ways. The school and the NCAA’s enforcement staff can retreat to their separate corners, fight tooth and nail, and then take their cases to the Committee on Infractions. Or they can work together and issue a summary disposition, where the two parties agree on the facts as well as the appropriate penalties. Missouri chose the latter route, and while the Committee on Infractions will still have its say, in most cases the committee does not go much further when it comes to imposing penalties. Missouri’s postseason ban means very little because the Tigers, who are 8–9 (1–3 SEC) and were unlikely to qualify for postseason play anyway, but for a basketball program that has faced stiff NCAA penalties on multiple occasions throughout its history, last week’s revelation was yet another sordid chapter.
What’s next for Haith? Well, he was given a strong vote of support from Tulsa athletic director Derrick Gragg, so it doesn’t appear that he is in jeopardy of losing his job. And many of the facts are on his side. Still, Haith knows all too well that facts don’t always matter, perception is reality, and coaching is a tough, tough business. The only thing we know for sure is that when we zoom in on a mess like this, no one involved looks pretty.
On the surface, last week’s report issued jointly by the NCAA and the University of Missouri should have been good news for Frank Haith. Even though his former employer imposed a postseason ban for violations that were partly committed under Haith’s watch, Haith, who is currently in his second season as head coach at Tulsa, was not cited in the report and will not face any penalties.
And yet, that is not how last week’s developments are being viewed by the media and the public. This is, after all, Haith’s second go-round with the NCAA’s meat grinder. He served a five-game suspension at the beginning of the 2013-14 season because of violations that occurred during his previous stop at Miami. Not only did some of the violations at Missouri occur while Haith was in charge, but they were aided in part by his close friend and former assistant, Tim Fuller, who was slapped with a minor violation. And because the Missouri case still has to go before the Committee on Infractions, Haith is unable to speak publicly and defend himself. So he has to zip his lips while being held up as a public pinata. That can’t be easy.
The heart of this case is an internship program conducted by a Missouri grad named Mark Tuley, a mid-level donor who is the founder of a national intelligence company based in Martinez, Georgia. Tuley hosted Missouri players for jobs during the summers of 2013 and ’14. These arrangements are common in college athletics, and they are kosher as long as they meet a few barometers: The opportunities have to be available to non-athletes, the athletes need to be paid a standard market rate, and the work has to be real. At the conclusion of its 19-month investigation, the NCAA decided the jobs did not meet those standards. That is the only Level I (i.e. major) violation levied against Missouri in this report.
But is that Haith’s fault? Technically, no. It is not the head coach’s duty to vet internships. Rather, that falls to a university’s compliance office. The compliance personnel at Missouri did their due diligence at the outset, but they did not follow up by collecting pay stubs and W-2 forms from the players when they returned to Missouri. That’s why the NCAA also gave Missouri a Level II violation for failure to monitor but did not penalize Haith.
On the other hand, given what happened at Miami (in which booster Nevin Shapiro admitted to giving basketball players and their families cash and to merchandise, among other violations) wasn’t it in Haith’s interest to be absolutely sure that these jobs were on the up and up? Shouldn’t he have been on the phone with his players to make certain that the situation wouldn’t become a problem in the eyes of the NCAA? If he didn’t want to ask Jordan Clarkson and Tony Criswell, the two players who worked for Tuley in the summer of 2013, then he could have asked his graduate assistant, Ricky Bolton, who, according to two sources with direct knowledge of this matter, also worked for Tuley that summer. Bolton is Haith’s nephew, and he is currently serving on Haith’s staff at Tulsa as a strength and conditioning coordinator.
On the other other hand, it is perfectly plausible that Haith did have those conversations and concluded the jobs met the NCAA’s standards. Tuley has not been heard from publicly since the report was issued (the university has been ordered to permanently disassociate itself from him), but from what I am told, he was not entirely cooperative with the NCAA. He did meet with NCAA investigators, but he did not participate in follow-up interviews, and he did not turn over all the information they requested. So it is possible that Tuley maintains, and Haith honestly believed, that those athletes did proper work and were paid accordingly.
Fuller was also the point person on another player who plays a major role in this report, Jakeenan Gant, a 6'8" sophomore forward from Springfield, Ga. Toward the end of his senior year in high school in 2014, Gant’s family wanted to move from Georgia to Missouri, partly because it was not clear that Gant was on track to be academically eligible. Fuller connected them with a different booster who helped arrange rental housing for them, a Level III violation. The Gant family’s move is what initially raised the interest of the NCAA. Unlike Clarkson and Criswell, who are no longer playing college basketball, Gant is required to meet with the NCAA’s investigators. It was during that interview that he revealed the internship he did with Tuley during the summer of 2014, apparently unaware that he was disclosing a major violation.
As a result, Gant had to sit out the first nine games of his freshman season. Fuller, who was retained by Haith’s successor, Kim Anderson, at the behest of then-athletic director Mike Alden, was prohibited from recruiting for three months while Missouri looked into the matter. When last season ended, Fuller was not retained. He is currently not working in coaching.
Haith, meanwhile, had bolted for Tulsa four days after the school received its official notice of inquiry from the NCAA on April 14, 2014. That move looked odd at the time, and while it is plausible that Haith did not know about the letter of inquiry, it is also plausible that he knew the NCAA was poking around Gant’s recruitment and decided to get out of Dodge. Last week, Anderson revealed that when he interviewed for the head coaching job, Alden did not inform him that the school had received the notice of inquiry. That was highly unethical on Alden’s part, and it sheds further light on why Missouri’s athletic department wound up in this situation.
When an investigation gets launched, it can go one of two ways. The school and the NCAA’s enforcement staff can retreat to their separate corners, fight tooth and nail, and then take their cases to the Committee on Infractions. Or they can work together and issue a summary disposition, where the two parties agree on the facts as well as the appropriate penalties. Missouri chose the latter route, and while the Committee on Infractions will still have its say, in most cases the committee does not go much further when it comes to imposing penalties. Missouri’s postseason ban means very little because the Tigers, who are 8–9 (1–3 SEC) and were unlikely to qualify for postseason play anyway, but for a basketball program that has faced stiff NCAA penalties on multiple occasions throughout its history, last week’s revelation was yet another sordid chapter.
What’s next for Haith? Well, he was given a strong vote of support from Tulsa athletic director Derrick Gragg, so it doesn’t appear that he is in jeopardy of losing his job. And many of the facts are on his side. Still, Haith knows all too well that facts don’t always matter, perception is reality, and coaching is a tough, tough business. The only thing we know for sure is that when we zoom in on a mess like this, no one involved looks pretty.
WHAT media and public? This is the only place I can find anyone even discussing this topic...
He's likely referencing Twitter talk...but there have been several national and regional articles on the subject -- I've posted several in a thread on this topic in Hurricane Alley.
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