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BAYLOR, Take 2

TU_BLA

TU_BLA

I.T.S. Legend
Gold Member
Mar 9, 2012
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Tulsa, OK
I posted in the Briles as OC thread...NCAA needs to sac up and give Baylor the death penalty for 2 yrs. Up to 52 rapes over 4 yrs and they paid a former athletic trainer hush money so she would keep quiet about when she was assaulted. Allegedly Kendal Briles was the Asst. who orchestrated that deal.

Now you've got scholarship and non-disclosure agreements out there. That means someone in Financial Aid and Baylor's legal counsel knew. Has there ever been a more clear cut case of "Lack of Institutional Control"?
 
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I can see them getting kicked out of Big 12 finally.
 
Gold* said:
I can see them getting kicked out of Big 12 finally.
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That's not likely. Does anyone have any idea if these conferences have charters? If they did there might be a reasonable expectation of representing the conference with dignity and then there might be an out with them. Still highly unlikely UNLESS they are given the death penalty for 2 years and Big XII must replace them for competition and TV contract sake. Something like that might actually force schools to be on the safer side of integrity instead of pushing g the rules in the quest for $$$$.
 
I say it because I think they are getting the death penalty or worse (withdrawal of federal funds). This is the same school where Dave Bliss tried to cover up a murder and massive recruiting scandal. The culture there has to change. Nuke em.
 
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Rhule may be regretting this decision every day. I wonder how upfront Baylor was on the scandal when hiring him.
 
Baylor won't get the death penalty... if they did the big 12-2 would collapse like the SWC did in the wake of the SMU fiasco... too much money being made by too many people. OU, OSU, and TX would be front and center lobbying the NCAA against it.
 
Baylor's lack of institutional control will lead to one of the other non-Big 12 Texas schools getting a severe probation! (JK)

That seems to be the way the neutered NCAA works. The NCAA is afraid to severely penalize or challenge the "big"schools for fear of the 60-80 schools pulling out and forming their own governing body. It is really a shame that the OU and UGA lawsuit over TV rights, in the late 70's or early 80's, changed the landscape of college athletics. In many ways it is really a detriment to the scholastic and athletic environments.
 
A lawsuit doesn't mean guilt on the part of Baylor or anyone else. It means that plaintiffs lawyers are wanting to steal some more money. We have plenty of crooked plaintiffs lawyers in Texas.
 
Gold* said:
I say it because I think they are getting the death penalty or worse (withdrawal of federal funds). This is the same school where Dave Bliss tried to cover up a murder and massive recruiting scandal. The culture there has to change. Nuke em.
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I agree that the NCAA needs to hit them hard. W/d of fed funds on a Title IX violation would hit the school harder than the athletic program unfortunately.

I worked at Baylor in Student Affairs when Bliss was hired. Myself and a lot of my colleagues felt uneasy about what he was trying to do when we met with him and he spoke about his goals.
 
noble cane said:
Baylor won't get the death penalty... if they did the big 12-2 would collapse like the SWC did in the wake of the SMU fiasco... too much money being made by too many people. OU, OSU, and TX would be front and center lobbying the NCAA against it.
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This has happened twice there now. Give them the ax. No amount of lobbying should fix that. Houston will take their place, like they should have when that conference was formed.
 
TU 1978 said:
A lawsuit doesn't mean guilt on the part of Baylor or anyone else. It means that plaintiffs lawyers are wanting to steal some more money. We have plenty of crooked plaintiffs lawyers in Texas.
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You don't say?
 
RealTUTypical said:
How is Baylor not considered quasi-governmental since they receive fed funds?
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They are subject to title ix, but I imagine there are numerous case by case instances where you can argue it either way, kind of like TU getting the help of the city for eminent domain when we needed it.

They are a private school, first and foremost.
 
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Gold* said:
This has happened twice there now. Give them the ax. No amount of lobbying should fix that. Houston will take their place, like they should have when that conference was formed.
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Not saying they shouldn't get it... but if the NCAA refused to give it to OU in the wake of Barry Switzer or the U in the wake of all their scandals it will be tough to ax Baylor.
 
noble cane said:
Not saying they shouldn't get it... but if the NCAA refused to give it to OU in the wake of Barry Switzer or the U in the wake of all their scandals it will be tough to ax Baylor.
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Neither one of those was as bad as this deal and the issue is they totally crapped the bed on oversight twice in the same 15 year period. Most of Miami's violations last time around were tossed and our basketball coach caught the worst of it (and he disputes that to this day).

And you have to wonder how much pull Baylor has after tossing Ken Starr to the curb (albeit deserved).
 
If they don't get at least the death penalty, this entire system needs to go. The feds need to come down on them hard but probably won't because of this poopy administration. Unfortunately, Jeff Sessions will be the head AG and thus in charge of the civil rights office. To him, football probably can't be touched because it is one of truly american institutions.
 
Gold* said:
They are subject to title ix, but I imagine there are numerous cars by cases instances where you can argue it either way, kind of like TU getting the help of the city for eminent domain when we needed it.

They are a private school, first and foremost.
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Almost all universities in the US receive federal education dollars through various programs. Most of the student loan programs are guaranteed by US DOE. Pell grants are fed monies. The work study program provides 80% of the dollars for the student awarded it (individual universities only pay about 20 cents for each dollar earned by a federal WS student). There are rules governing how each is used and also subjects the university to Federal US DOE regulations and Title IX provisions. I do believe that certain research grants which are awarded by government agencies also require the university to adhere to Fed. guidelines.

And it is very different than the City of Tulsa giving TU developmental rights to certain areas.
 
I know, but the question was broader, whether Baylor is quasi public. When you talk about TU, the land issue is one of recent debate. I just brought it up for discussion's sake, like your infinite references to Boston sports teams.
 
Gold* said:
I know, but the question was broader, whether Baylor is quasi public. When you talk about TU, the land issue is one of recent debate. I just brought it up for discussion's sake, like your infinite references to Boston sports teams.
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I see ya. Pats are going to win #5 Sunday...my birthday BTW.

As for your other point...even private universities have strong relationships with their municipalities and states almost to the point where you can't separate them. A strong public-private partnership in these instances makes both entities stronger. Baylor has a very strong relationship with Waco, one of the strongest I've ever seen. Waco is pretty small in the grand scheme of things though (little bigger than Broken Arrow) so that relationship is almost unavoidable. There's not much to do in Waco and Baylor is sort of the center of the universe there. I would not classify Baylor as quasi-public at all. There is still a strong tie to the BGC of TX and that drives a lot of policy within the university (like no dancing). From the inside, Baylor functions very much as a private university and when the football and basketball teams sucked, no one cared that much and academics were the most important things. Then they became slaves to the $$$.
 
TU_BLA said:
I see ya. Pats are going to win #5 Sunday...my birthday BTW.

As for your other point...even private universities have strong relationships with their municipalities and states almost to the point where you can't separate them. A strong public-private partnership in these instances makes both entities stronger. Baylor has a very strong relationship with Waco, one of the strongest I've ever seen. Waco is pretty small in the grand scheme of things though (little bigger than Broken Arrow) so that relationship is almost unavoidable. There's not much to do in Waco and Baylor is sort of the center of the universe there. I would not classify Baylor as quasi-public at all. There is still a strong tie to the BGC of TX and that drives a lot of policy within the university (like no dancing). From the inside, Baylor functions very much as a private university and when the football and basketball teams sucked, no one cared that much and academics were the most important things. Then they became slaves to the $$$.
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So you are conceding that they have an "unavoidable" reach out from money from the public? I am calling BS. for instance, I don't think the catholic church gets federal government money. This strong public private-public partnership can have its public dollars taken away for their appalling lack of actiont regarding rape. don't quote me on this but the federal government could sue them and push for that as a penalty or the DOE and other agencies could just yank funding for research, work study dollars, student loan help and other things. At the end of the day, they get federal and state help that could be taken away, regardless how much better Baylor makes it for Chip and Joanna on Fixer Upper. Thanks. For. Playing.
 
goldfan83 said:
So you are conceding that they have an "unavoidable" reach out from money from the public? I am calling BS. for instance, I don't think the catholic church gets federal government money. This strong public private-public partnership can have its public dollars taken away for their appalling lack of actiont regarding rape. don't quote me on this but the federal government could sue them and push for that as a penalty or the DOE and other agencies could just yank funding for research, work study dollars, student loan help and other things. At the end of the day, they get federal and state help that could be taken away, regardless how much better Baylor makes it for Chip and Joanna on Fixer Upper. Thanks. For. Playing.
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The Catholic Church gets about a half billion dollars a year from the federal government.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/24/catholic-church-collects-16-billion-in-us-contract/
 
goldfan83 said:
So you are conceding that they have an "unavoidable" reach out from money from the public? I am calling BS. for instance, I don't think the catholic church gets federal government money. This strong public private-public partnership can have its public dollars taken away for their appalling lack of actiont regarding rape. don't quote me on this but the federal government could sue them and push for that as a penalty or the DOE and other agencies could just yank funding for research, work study dollars, student loan help and other things. At the end of the day, they get federal and state help that could be taken away, regardless how much better Baylor makes it for Chip and Joanna on Fixer Upper. Thanks. For. Playing.
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You're absolutely right that if Baylor is found in violation of title IX (and they apparently are from all evidence I've seen/read), that the DOE and any other sources of funding the Fed. Gov't provides could be removed from Baylor. That means Fed. work study dollars would be gone, Pell grants, loans would go to regular bank loans and qualifications, and the possible loss of federal research grants. As I said, this would hurt the university and regular non-athlete students more than it would the athletic dept. And the DOE is already investigating the Title IX violations as a result of the Pepper Hamilton (?) report.

I'm not defending Baylor's lack of action at all. Simply trying to clarify that even private universities have partnerships with the communities they are in for the mutual benefit.
 
Their lack of oversight hurt regular students too. Football needs to be shut down for a while.
 
goldfan83 said:
Their lack of oversight hurt regular students too. Football needs to be shut down for a while.
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Absolutely. And not only current students. A scandal such as this one hurts alumni and the value of their diploma as well.
 
All this fed dollar talk but quasi governmental status isn't an issue for private schools, including us.

It's a safe harbor for which private schools can insulate themselves of all wrong doing.
 
RealTUTypical said:
All this fed dollar talk but quasi governmental status isn't an issue for private schools, including us.

It's a safe harbor for which private schools can insulate themselves of all wrong doing.
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Do you think that argument flies in court? I would love to see that one, and the basis of the decision.
 
RealTUTypical said:
All this fed dollar talk but quasi governmental status isn't an issue for private schools, including us.

It's a safe harbor for which private schools can insulate themselves of all wrong doing.
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Incorrect. If you receive any type of federal dollars you are subject to following the rules laid out for receiving such, including Title IX. ORU receives fed monies for work study and participates in the fed loan programs for its students. Schools can gain exceptions for certain parts if they are faith-based schools and that is an integral part of the university's mission...which is why ORU, Liberty, etc. can ask certain questions on employment applications, on its enrollment application, etc. Baylor asked for my personal statement of Christian faith when I interviewed there.

Do a Google search of US colleges and universities that don't accept any type of federal monies. It's a very short list.
 
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Ugh...DMN is releasing more info alleging CAB sent text messages to various coaches and Baylor AD about assault allegations and other misbehavior by players and essentially blowing them off and daring the accusers to report it.

I hope to God Monty's name doesn't come up in any of these. Briles has also apparently withdrawn his libel lawsuit against members of the Baylor board of regents. That means he is acknowledging where there's smoke there's a fire.
 
Please don't infer what things that happen in litigation mean. You don't have the experience to know that.
 
Gold* said:
Please don't infer what things that happen in litigation mean. You don't have the experience to know that.
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There's bad crap with Briles name on it...logical to assume that he has no case and by going through with it more info comes out that he doesn't want to come out. Heck, I don't want that info to come out.
 
Then stop. But civil litigation is really nuanced stuff. Don't assume anything.
 
Weatherdemon said:
Some texts have been released that indicate Briles knew all along
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They indicate he not only knew but he and his staff played an active part in the coverup. The fact that Baylor required the findings of their internal investigation be presented orally with no written records of the same is about as sleazy as you can get.
 
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