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Which is better: Be an enemy of the US or an ally of long standing?

Watu3

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Nov 17, 2017
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Xi, Kim and Putin have all received recent boosts from Trump. Chinese companies are essentially pardoned, Kim is given increased world stature, closer relations with Xi, and our relationship with SKorea is weakened.
Now suddenly Russia should be in the G-7 despite no change in behavior?

Meanwhile our closest allies are hit with tariffs, accused on actively hurting the US, and their heads of state personally insulted and demeaned.

Which leaves us where: without allies, in a trade war, and depending on our enemies?

Like everyone I hope that Trump comes out of June 12 with forward momentum toward a safer world, but has he put himself in a position where getting some sort of deal may be the only positive accomplishment he claim this year? That is not a great negotiating position.

Kim has already achieved a great deal at no cost: he is closer to S. Korea and China, and he is meeting with Trump as an equal not a immature child leader. If he goes home without a deal, he still has his nukes, he has an enhanced reputation, he can always take three more hostages, and his nuclear testing facility had already collapsed before he blew up the entrances for show. Kim has no elections to worry about. On the other hand....
 
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As long as we are spending billions of dollars every year defending and propping up South Korea our relationship is as strong as we want it to be. Hell....we interfered in the election of maybe our closest Allie trying to oust the sitting President and their still there. Why...like South Korea...they need us.

I see few downsides in an improved relationship with China. Even you expressed disapproval at the thought of Trump causing tension between the two superpowers. Ending hostilities on the Korean Peninsula would be a huge achievement. Getting NK to abandon their nuclear program would be monumental. Very little downside here.
 
There are two separate facts here. The first is easy. Trump acted poorly at the G-7 [full stop].

Second, it is much better to be our Ally than our enemy. An honest Germany would have to admit that. But after WWII our Allies in W. Germany faired better than the East. You might say that was 72 years ago. But let's look at the last 72 years. For most of that time we kept Europe safe from the USSR mostly at our own cost. There were a few good year under Yeltsin, but Putin wouldn't mind helping himself not only to Crimea but also to the Ukraine, Poland anyone? Georgia. I'll come back to Europe.

But first Korea. The North invaded the South. We had down sized our military. Done deal? Well no. Even though we were busy rebuilding Europe under the Marshall Plan, we [under the flag of the UN] whipped the North all the way to the Yalu River, oops, China came in and we fought to a draw. But look at Korea. Would you rather be our Ally in the South or live under the Kim family in the North. Our ally in the South has Kia, Hundai and Samsung. The North is starving but has an atomic bomb.

Let's now return to Europe. Germany is united. UK is doing well, France no longer changes government every few months, and the battleground in past wars Belgium for some reason has the capital of Europe and is as arrogant as Washington. Even after 70+ years we still stand ready to defend our Allies from Russia. We ask them to contribute what they have agreed to and they howl. Well, our fishing buddies want to use our boat and not help much with gas money. Oh, and they put tariffs on us but don't think we should put tariffs on them. And Trump was rude and got hollered at by the East German.

Now we all know Trump, he isn't always nice, seldom maybe. His talk of bringing Russia back to the G6 or 7 or 8 might be a bit of a hint. They howled when he was talking about NATO so now they are howling about tariffs. When it comes right down to it, it's better to be our ally than our enemy.
 
Trump is correct re NATO and the unfair financial contribution of the US. He is right...and wrong...regarding trade. While we a part of a number of bad trade agreements I don’t believe Trumps approach to try to correct some of these deals is the right approach.

Are friends who are your friends as long as your buying truly friends?
 
Count me with McCain

To our allies: bipartisan majorities of Americans remain pro-free trade, pro-globalization & supportive of alliances based on 70 years of shared values. Americans stand with you, even if our president doesn’t.
 
Trump has been president for almost a year and a half. He mentioned all of this from the beginning. It went nowhere. I don't like the way he is doing it but he was closer to polite the first. We are NATO allies, but we are the senior partner.
 
It's one thing to stand with our NATO allies. It's another thing for them to continue to take advantage of us when it comes to the financial support of the organization. An organization formed in large part for their protection. Let's be a partner. A partner who shares an equal financial burden. Change and equality aren't always easy to achieve....but often necessary. We are $20T in debt btw.
 
Trump has been president for almost a year and a half. He mentioned all of this from the beginning. It went nowhere. I don't like the way he is doing it but he was closer to polite the first. We are NATO allies, but we are the senior partner.
We have no incentive to move away from our NATO allies. Putin isn't going to become our ally any time soon. All this does is help Russia to be able to strong arm Western Europe and possibly seize more former soviet territory.
 
It's one thing to stand with our NATO allies. It's another thing for them to continue to take advantage of us when it comes to the financial support of the organization. An organization formed in large part for their protection. Let's be a partner. A partner who shares an equal financial burden. Change and equality aren't always easy to achieve....but often necessary. We are $20T in debt btw.
THEN STOP GIVING F-ING TAX CUTS!
 
We have no incentive to move away from our NATO allies. Putin isn't going to become our ally any time soon. All this does is help Russia to be able to strong arm Western Europe and possibly seize more former soviet territory.
Yes, hopefully our fellow members will take note of this. Germany has only Poland for a buffer. Merkel grew up in East Germany. Germany didn't have much of a military in the early 50s. That made their neighbors happy, now it might make them nervous.
 
I DIDN'T AND DON'T SUPPORT THEM. I do have the ability to disagree with both political parties :)
I think a more effective way to make up the loss from our majority support of NATO would be to aim domestically for a budget surplus which means fewer huge expenditures and cutting some domestic expenditures.

The tax cuts increased the deficit by 1.7 Trillion, while we only spend something like $450 million /yr on NATO
 
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I think a more effective way to make up the loss from our majority support of NATO would be to aim domestically for a budget surplus which means fewer huge expenditures and cutting some domestic expenditures.

I have no issues with equal support from us and our Allies based on a percentage of GDP. When we pay 4% and Germany pay 1% there's obviously an issue. Especially considering that the primary purpose of NATO is to protect those European Allies. I'm frankly at a loss as to why such a discrepancy is acceptable to any U.S. citizen.
 
I have no issues with equal support from us and our Allies based on a percentage of GDP. When we pay 4% and Germany pay 1% there's obviously an issue. Especially considering that the primary purpose of NATO is to protect those European Allies.
The current deficit (before Trump's Tax Cuts) is something like $666 Billion.

The extra % that we pay for NATO is somewhere in the range of $250 Million, and it means that we have "bully power" over Canada, Western Europe and the UN Security Council. It would certainly be nice to reduce that number, but we're really only talking about reducing our budget deficit by .03%. There are better things we could do.
 
Arguing that we have "bully power" because we pay a greater percent to NATO than those nations the organization actually protects is silly. We have the "bully power" because it's our armed forces which protect them from threats. A per capita look at NATO contributions is as follows:

An alternative way of assessing and comparing NATO members’ defense spending is to examine defense spending per capita last year, which produces a rather different picture.

The United States is still significantly ahead, spending $1,877 dollars for each citizen, but Norway comes in second ($1,399 per head), followed by Britain ($907), France ($753), Denmark ($684) and the Netherlands ($602).

Germany is in seventh place ($546), just ahead of Greece ($532).

At the lower end of the scale, Albania spent $50 per capita on defense, Bulgaria $102, Romania $141, and Hungary $151.
 
I mean, we are able to hold the NATO expenditure over their head to help them to go along with our international domestic policy.

If you want to bring down expenditures, there are better ways to do it than complaining about .03% of our budget deficit.

Simply cutting the overall defense budget would be a much more effective policy.
 
I doubt the 0.03 percent number.

I have no problem with Albania where wealth is measured in goats. Paying more than others made sense after WWII when Europe was rebuilding. But they got used to it and now consider it normal. Germany is not an emerging nation nor is France. These are successful first world nations that can afford to chip in more for their defense.
 
Meanwhile back in Singapore (both hotels are about a quarter mile from one of my old offices) it's hard to see that Trump set himself up well. Kim has no pressure to deliver; he's already ahead and doesn't have to worry about domestic press. Trump is under incredible pressure because this is the only 'deal' that he can claim credit for since he took office. He's already sucked up to China by giving ZTE a pass, his advisors are split on whether they think the summit is a good idea, and despite his claim that he "has been preparing for this deal all his llfe", his preparation is about zero compared to the others at the table.

Here's hoping that I'm wrong....

BTW this is pretty funny... from Fox
 
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I mean, we are able to hold the NATO expenditure over their head to help them to go along with our international domestic policy.

If you want to bring down expenditures, there are better ways to do it than complaining about .03% of our budget deficit.

Simply cutting the overall defense budget would be a much more effective policy.


We are able to hold their protection over their heads. Absolutely no reason for us to be spending far more than them on their protection. I'll ask again...why are you against our European Allies paying the same % of their GDP for their own protection as we contribute for their own protection? You've yet to give an answer.
 
Meanwhile back in Singapore (both hotels are about a quarter mile from one of my old offices) it's hard to see that Trump set himself up well. Kim has no pressure to deliver; he's already ahead and doesn't have to worry about domestic press. Trump is under incredible pressure because this is the only 'deal' that he can claim credit for since he took office. He's already sucked up to China by giving ZTE a pass, his advisors are split on whether they think the summit is a good idea, and despite his claim that he "has been preparing for this deal all his llfe", his preparation is about zero compared to the others at the table.

Here's hoping that I'm wrong....

BTW this is pretty funny... from Fox

The bar for deals has been set pretty low by the prior administration....dropping sanctions, paying NK billions, and little to no meaningful inspections would be a wash. I'm hoping you're wrong also. Peace between the Koreas and the de-nuclearization of the peninsula would be a huge foreign policy victory for the world.
 
The bar for deals has been set pretty low by the prior administration....dropping sanctions, paying NK billions, and little to no meaningful inspections would be a wash. I'm hoping you're wrong also. Peace between the Koreas and the de-nuclearization of the peninsula would be a huge foreign policy victory for the world.

LOL. He's done zip besides pull things down. Let me know when he's actually accomplished something or actually negotiated a good deal. Moving the embassy in Israel without a deal has set the bar even lower.
 
LOL. He's done zip besides pull things down. Let me know when he's actually accomplished something or actually negotiated a good deal. Moving the embassy in Israel without a deal has set the bar even lower.

I'm just hoping he's learned a lesson from the prior Admin that sometimes no deal is better than a bad deal.

Our European Allies have been tone death toward the notion of them paying their fair share for their own defense. We're reaching a point where the only option we may have left is to cut our funding to the same levels as that of our Allies.
 
We are able to hold their protection over their heads. Absolutely no reason for us to be spending far more than them on their protection. I'll ask again...why are you against our European Allies paying the same % of their GDP for their own protection as we contribute for their own protection? You've yet to give an answer.
I’m not against it. I’m against pushing our allies on it to the detriment of our alliance and to Russia’s advantage when it’s such a small expenditure in our budget.
 
Your claim that Iran was an obvious bad deal is not shared by our allies and other participants who are working hard to keep it in place and would be more likely to be negatively affected that the US would. Constantly claiming that it is a horrible deal is an opinion but is no excuse for ignoring Trump's horrible performance internationally.

I'm just hoping he's learned a lesson from the prior Admin that sometimes no deal is better than a bad deal.

Our European Allies have been tone death toward the notion of them paying their fair share for their own defense. We're reaching a point where the only option we may have left is to cut our funding to the same levels as that of our Allies.
 
Your claim that Iran was an obvious bad deal is not shared by our allies and other participants who are working hard to keep it in place and would be more likely to be negatively affected that the US would. Constantly claiming that it is a horrible deal is an opinion but is no excuse for ignoring Trump's horrible performance internationally.

Do you actual expect those Allies who entered into this failed agreement to now claim the same to be a bad deal. It's just not my opinion but the opinion of almost every analyst out there. As I stated above...no deal would have been better than this mess which Obama inexcusably agreed too. In fact, the Iran deal is likely the worst international agreement the U.S. has ever entered. Hard for you to criticize anything Trump does foreign policy-wise when you support deals such as this....I assume based solely on a partisan basis. Point is that if you're happy with the agreement Obama made with Iran you should be happy with just about anything Trump does with NK. Here's the opinion of one of Clinton's advisors on the deal:


n the coming days, President Trump plans to announce his final decision on whether the United States will withdraw from the 2015 Iran nuclear accord. President Trump, who has described the agreement as “one of the worst deals” he has ever witnessed, is expected to leave the pact.

Ultimately, this is the right decision for the United States and for global security at large. From the outset, the accord, which provided sanctions relief for Iran in exchange for restrictions on their nuclear program, has a number of fatal flaws.

Foremost, while the plan limits Iran’s access to uranium, this restriction only lasts until 2025 to 2030. After that, the Iranians are free to revitalize their nuclear program on a potentially even larger scale. Notably, however, this “sunset” clause, which allow parts of the deal to expire, are the least of the deal’s shortcomings.


One of the primary failures of the deal is that the agreement fails to address Iran’s ballistic missile program. As such, the country has continued to unrestrictedly build and test ballistic missiles. Moreover, President Trump and others have rightly objected to the terms under which regulatory inspectors are permitted to visit nuclear sites.

The terms of the deal give Iran 14 days to object to a request for inspection, followed by a period of seven days for an arbitration committee to rule about the inspection, and another three days for Tehran to set up an inspection. Thus, this provides Iran with up to 24 days to conceal, destroy, or relocate contraband materials.

Even more problematically, Iran has stated that it will prohibit inspections of military sites, thus further complicating the issue of compliance verification. These flaws have become so glaringly problematic that even those who once championed the deal have begun to question it.

“Everyone recognizes that the deal is not ideal. I think President Obama would say the deal is not ideal,” said Bob Einhorn, who was the State Department’s special adviser for nonproliferation and arms control during the Obama administration. While these flaws are not necessarily brand new, there have been several recent alarming developments that have sparked concern among elected officials.

Last week, standing in front a screen which blatantly displayed the text “Iran lied” in all caps, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that Israeli intelligence services had obtained proof that Iran had been deceptive about its nuclear program.

Netanyahu claims to have 55,000 pages and 183 CDs full of evidence that Iran had sought “to design, produce and test five warheads with 10 kiloton of TNT yield for integration on missiles.” He also indicated that the documents had been stolen from a warehouse in Tehran by a team working for Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service, and that they definitively proved that Iran has been lying about its nuclear program.

While some intelligence experts doubt that the evidence is quite as reliable as Netanyahu claims, the prime minister’s presentation did underscore an important point: Under the terms of the current Iran deal, it is next to impossible for us to truly know the full details of the Iranian nuclear program and whether Tehran is abiding by the guidelines established by the accord.

Indeed, it has become increasingly clear that the Iran agreement was a bad move for the United States and its allies. Instead of forcing Iran to stop developing nuclear weapons, the deal has merely compelled Tehran to become more covert about the project. At the same time, relief from sanctions has provided tens of billions of dollars for Iran, much of which will certainly be funneled to the Syrian regime of Bashar Assad and terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas.

Ultimately, President Obama’s heralded deal is really a win for the rouge Iranian regime and its allies and a major setback for the West. At this time, President Trump would be right to withdraw from the deal.
 
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I’m not against it. I’m against pushing our allies on it to the detriment of our alliance and to Russia’s advantage when it’s such a small expenditure in our budget.

If asking our allies to pay their fair share of their own defense hurts our alliance then it's a one sided alliance to say the least and one which needs to be looked at. Reminds me a the spoiled brat whose been given everything their entire life by their rich parents who now are telling their child it's time to pay your fair share. Germany, France, etc...can throw their temper tantrum. In the end, we need to stick by our guns and demand an equitable funding of their defense. They will eventually agree to do what they should have been doing for decades.
 
If asking our allies to pay their fair share of their own defense hurts our alliance then it's a one sided alliance to say the least and one which needs to be looked at. Reminds me a the spoiled brat whose been given everything their entire life by their rich parents who now are telling their child it's time to pay your fair share. Germany, France, etc...can throw their temper tantrum. In the end, we need to stick by our guns and demand an equitable funding of their defense. They will eventually agree to do what they should have been doing for decades.
It just means it's an alliance that provides us benefit at not much cost. It's like you're getting mad at your wife for buying $30 of overpriced steak at the grocery store while you yourself are spending $100's of dollars per meal on steak dinners for yourself.

Why don't you fix the bigger problem before going after the small potatoes? Fighting this fight while also trying to have a trade war with several other places, and negotiate with Korea, and while you're hiking the deficit and inviting inflation, just is too much to chew at one time. Why don't we slash our military expenditure first, then go to NATO and say, "We're not footing the bill anymore, we're determined to run a surplus next year." They'll know we're serious.
 
A better analogy would be going out to eat steak dinners with a bunch of "friends" and them not only not offering to pick up their share of the tab but expecting you too pay part of their tab. Then when you ask them to pay their share of the tab they get an attitude and refuse to consider such a novel idea.

It's obvious our Allies don't care about the size of our deficit or when we have an economic downturn as it relates to us paying their NATO bill. You can rest assured they won't care about any surplus talk either. I'm not sure why it's even a discussion at this point. If we're going to continue to foot the bill for their security then do so only if they pay a proportionate share as we do...and that's being kind to them imo as the money is for their protection not ours.
 
The amount of money we're talking about would be like a group of friends going out and buying a plate of nachos and several of the friends paying $1 while the one of them paid $3. And then you neglect the fact that the guy paying $3 is in severe debt because of other much larger expenditures like houses and cars and planes. You get mad at the plate of nachos instead. It's a diversion that means next to nothing when compared with how much we spend on other things.

Maybe try getting rid of the payments on your Gulf Stream 4 before you start whining to your friends about them not paying for their share of the nachos.

We pay 141 BILLION dollars to our military personel right now. By comparison, we give .3% of that number to NATO. Maybe we should examine cutting back the 141 BILLION instead of the 450 MILLION.
 
The amount of money we're talking about would be like a group of friends going out and buying a plate of nachos and several of the friends paying $1 while the one of them paid $3. And then you neglect the fact that the guy paying $3 is in severe debt because of other much larger expenditures like houses and cars and planes. You get mad at the plate of nachos instead. It's a diversion that means next to nothing when compared with how much we spend on other things.

Good. Then our “Allies” should have no issues doing the right thing and paying their fair share for THEIR security. I’m frankly having a hard time understanding why this is even an issue among the Allies. Should have been done long ago.
 
Good. Then our “Allies” should have no issues doing the right thing and paying their fair share for THEIR security. I’m frankly having a hard time understanding why this is even an issue among the Allies. Should have been done long ago.
It just makes the friend seem selfish and EXTREMELY dumb with his money. The other friends would be thinking; maybe before he comes asking us for our share, he should fix his spending habits first. Giving him this $2 isn't going to help him at all when he owes thousands.
 
The friend who IS selfish is the free loading friend. The friend who is dumb is he friend who continues to pick up the bill. We all have had free loading bum friends. There’s a reason we don’t keep them around for long.

Can’t believe this is even a discussion. Let’s keep paying for our ungrateful freeloading friend because we’re already so far in debt it won’t matter. Fantastic logic.
 
The friend who IS selfish is the free loading friend. The friend who is dumb is he friend who continues to pick up the bill. We all have had free loading bum friends. There’s a reason we don’t keep them around for long.

Can’t believe this is even a discussion. Let’s keep paying for our ungrateful freeloading friend because we’re already so far in debt it won’t matter. Fantastic logic.
Getting mad at an ally / friend for an insignificant amount of money in efforts to reduce your debt while still spending ludicrously for things you don't need and lording those things over your friend is a good way to lose a friend. Maybe the friendship is worth more than the money. Maybe you should just let the debt go for a while and in the meantime you work on your incredible overspending on ferraris, while your friend keeps driving his honda to work.

Maybe you know your friend will back you up in case of a fight. Maybe they give you a ride to the airport every once in a while. Having people owe you isn't always a bad thing.
 
. Having people owe you isn't always a bad thing.

Except when they get mad when you ask them to pay their share. Not asking them to pay what they owe you for years of free loading. Simply asking them to pay going forward. Doesn’t sound like much of a friend. Certainly not one with any character or integrity Guess it’s good to know exactly who your dealing with.
 
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Except when they get mad when you ask them to pay their share. Not asking them to pay what they owe you for years of free loading. Simply asking them to pay going forward. Doesn’t sound like much of a friend. Certainly not one with any character. Guess it’s good to know exactly who your dealing with.
Maybe they have their reasons for not being able to, but they'll help you out in another way, like I said. They'll take you to the airport, or have your back in a fight. It's worth it in this world to have friends, and friendship isn't ever free. Being a dick about things is pretty Trumpian. Getting mad about small debts is dumb.

Why don't we get mad about our debilitating and much larger expenditures first. Don't come calling in favors before you've alleviated your largest expenditures first.
 
Maybe they have their reasons for not being able to, but they'll help you out in another way, like I said. They'll take you to the airport, or have your back in a fight. It's worth it in this world to have friends, and friendship isn't ever free. Being a dick about things is pretty Trumpian. Getting mad about small debts is dumb.

They need us to back them up in a fight a lot more than vice versa. It is worth it in this world to have friends. Having the most powerful nation on earth as a friend is irreplaceable. Something the freeloader might ponder when he tells his friend he has no intention of paying his share for his protection. Taking such a position is beyond dumb
 
I have no problem with Trump asking NATO countries to carry their fair share, but his approach is flawed and his behavior so childish that it undermines his effectiveness and key US relationships. Germany had already increased its defense spending and is on its way to meeting the 2%. Wouldn't know it from the G-7 photos.

Will Trump ever run out of people or countries to blame? His business relationships were so bad in the private sector that no US banks would lend to him and he was forced to pander to Russian oligarchs to finance his projects. Not because he was a great negotiator or understood economics, but because he was dishonest, undependable, and made bad deals. Now that he's isolating the US from our allies, he may have dip into the Russia well again. Is undermining NATO and inviting Putin to the G-7 his quid pro quo?

To be fair, the US and western democracies can be at a disadvantage when dealing with Xi, Putin, or even Kim, as dictators don't have to worry about being elected or what the local press will say about them. They can take near term hits if it advances their longer term goals. But that has been true for previous presidents. Trump has exacerbated that weakness by promising BIG short term wins and starring in the national soap opera that dominates our news. Yes, he has his own tools such as undermining people's faith in the press, misrepresenting action as progress and directly pandering to an admiring base. But he has yet to deliver on anything other than for his real base: the .01%.

Singapore visit most likely will be pure photo op.

QUOTE="lawpoke87, post: 223277, member: 114"]The friend who IS selfish is the free loading friend. The friend who is dumb is he friend who continues to pick up the bill. We all have had free loading bum friends. There’s a reason we don’t keep them around for long.

Can’t believe this is even a discussion. Let’s keep paying for our ungrateful freeloading friend because we’re already so far in debt it won’t matter. Fantastic logic.[/QUOTE]
 
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