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Unacceptable Basketball

TUFan1981

TUFan1981

I.T.S. Junior
Apr 27, 2006
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Is anyone else flat out frustrated that we are not a perennial contender for an NCAA tournament bid?

Some of you are too young to remember that Tulsa basketball is supposed to be a helluva lot better than this.

We need a group of people to get mad again, express their frustration and demand change. Am I suggesting that Haith be fired? Well, I guess I am.

Do you really think Frank Haith is the answer here? I don't, and I think his track record exhibits that he can't take us to the level we deserve to be.

It's selection Sunday and once again (last year was very fluke-ish) we aren't involved. Wichita found their Gregg Marshall and it's time we found ours.

Derrick Gragg...get it in gear man. This isn't working and it's not going to work. Fix this problem or maybe your job should be called into question.

Sorry folks, but if you don't at least somewhat see where I am coming from then you must enjoy seeing Tulsa basketball as mediocre.
 
I see where you're coming from and understand your point. I think firing Haith after this season would be very premature, doing so would make it difficult to attract the type of coaches we'd like. They'd look at Haith's 3 seasons and say "TU fired a coach after an NIT, NCAA, and a losing season during a rebuild. Not touching that job".
 
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IMO this season was a product of having to completely reload from all the graduation in 2015-16. It was somewhat predictable. What I was hoping for was getting into some minor post season tournament like the CBI to keep our young players practicing and learning. Unfortunately that isn't in the cards, but we have an upside in that the kids return almost intact next year. I think Haith did a better coaching job this year than last. So imo its not on him. We will have two of the better players in the league returning at their spots next year in Etou and Taplin imo.
 
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Firing Haith is idiotic. Shame on you for suggesting it is worth considering.
 
This team finished about exactly where most of us thought they would finish. A couple of players did not meet expectations for the year and there were a ton of sloppy mistakes typical of young teams (young meaning not really having a wealth of meaningful minutes). And the young team also over achieved for a stretch and was within 2 minutes of beating Cincinnati.

You would have never predicted Birt would shoot 10% under his avg from 3 or 15% under all FGs this year. I honestly think this team will be fine with the additions (and a few subtractions).
 
I don't hold this against you guys, but clearly you don't understand what Tulsa basketball stands for.

TU basketball was Gonzaga before Gonzaga was Gonzaga. I don't have time to give you a history lesson, but I can tell you that Gold needs to zip it and read up on his history.
 
I've been a TU fan since Nolan also and the decade before him Tulsa was more like ECU than Gonzaga. Maybe the OP needs a history lesson also. You don't fire a coach that takes you to an NIT and an NCAA at-large bid his first 2 years because of a rebuilding year. Will Haith pull it out? Who knows but he's got some good pieces in place now and more coming next season. He deserves at least two more years to coach these kids up. He doesn't have us in the dance again by 2019 (Taplin's senior year) then I think we need to be looking. Before that though you're just flapping your jaws for no reason.
 
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I'm out. I simply don't have the time to educate you people. You have no understanding of the program...fact. Enjoy hearing yourselves talk.
 
TUFan1981 said:
I don't hold this against you guys, but clearly you don't understand what Tulsa basketball stands for.

TU basketball was Gonzaga before Gonzaga was Gonzaga. I don't have time to give you a history lesson, but I can tell you that Gold needs to zip it and read up on his history.
Click to expand...

That analogy is tired. We've never had a 1 seed and we didn't win a tournament game until 1994. I love the program and think it is special, but we haven't made the tournament multiple years in a row since the 1990s.

The buyout makes no sense this year. Everyone who understands how these things works understands this year was inevitable and at times we overachieved.

The program is overall in better shape than it has been. The conference affiliation is huge. Recruiting has picked up, slowly. Becoming consistently competitive in the AAC is a better way to guarantee our success long term. And we have a coach who is doing that job well. We need attendance and marketing to be better and that has been discussed 1,000 times on here.

I have been around the program for decades and know it very well. I live and breathe TU basketball more than most. I have been to multiple NCAA tournaments with the school and severs conference tournaments. Your argument is unsupported by reason and not helpful. You don't know what you are talking about.

Haith has been nothing but classy since he came to TU. I know Mizzou fans hate him, but I don't get it. He treats our fans with respect and he performed better in a very competitive league than anyone thought he could. The current roster obviously needs some work and they have brought in better players this year. He deserves your respect and it sounds like you have an alterior motive here.
 
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TUFan1981 said:
I'm out. I simply don't have the time to educate you people. You have no understanding of the program...fact. Enjoy hearing yourselves talk.
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What a douche. Many of us have been following TU basketball since the Reagan years. You might disagree with us but only an arrogant d*€¥ thinks it's because he knows more than everyone else.
 
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TUFan1981 said:
I don't hold this against you guys, but clearly you don't understand what Tulsa basketball stands for.

TU basketball was Gonzaga before Gonzaga was Gonzaga. I don't have time to give you a history lesson, but I can tell you that Gold needs to zip it and read up on his history.
Click to expand...
Um, yeah I know exactly what TU basketball stands for. I was here in '92 (probation) and wondering why JR didn't RS and then the sweet 16 runs (was lucky enough to get one of the coveted random lottery pairs of tickets for the sweet 16 in Dallas). I know exactly where TU was. Then a horrible hiring decision because donors were tired of being a stepping stone.

Haith is doing it right. He took a team his predecessor didn't think could win in a tougher conference and got those very same players to win at a pretty good clip. And then he had to completely rebuild a roster.
 
Been here since 1968. No question we need to find the trick to regain excitement. Used to be packed at the fairgrounds and after Nolan the assembly center. Tgat should be our goal and will come with winning.
The biggest change this year was conference affiliation. Huge upgrade from mo valley days and competition. Remember we started strong and wheels came off as some on this board warned and predicted. Totally related to scheduling. Really only 3 disappointing games. ECU away, CN here and Tulane away
We absolutely need to improve recruiting and last years produced 2 and hopefully 3 big time contributors.
Let's hope 2-3 coming in are ready for aac. If they arethe tone of Haith evaluations will change.
Joiner looks like one of the better recruits we have found in a long time.
Hope Jeffries is really as advertised. Have no idea about the kansas kid but to take your team and upset for state 6a title from Kansas is strong
It is way to early to talk about length of Haith's tu future. We will all know soon enough
 
Jackson's team was the preseason favorite to win Kansas high school basketball. Not an upset. He's a good recruit.
 
Been coming to games here since the early 60s in fairgrounds. Seen the good and the bad. I am willing to give Haith another year and see how the new recruits do but I feel like we missed on close to half this year. We cannot afford that in Tulsa.
My complaint is with the quality of the coaching over the past couple of years. I believe we won in spite of our offense because of a couple of very talented guards. I find Haiths high pic and roll poorly executed and boring to watch when that's all you run. I think the coaches in game coaching is poor and they constantly fail to recognize mismatches both on offense and defense.
Perhaps some of that is talent perhaps not. That's why I'm willing to give Haith another year and hope the new recruits show promise. If not I may become a 1981 because I would love to see us return to prominence and my patience is shortening.
 
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Season ticket holder since the fairgrounds in 63-64. Good, bad and ugly. This is not a time to change the coach. Next year, maybe.
 
Haith has a minimum of 3 years to get the program back on track. I think he was aware of that when he took the job. If things are no better after next year then we will all be agreeing with you. Not that it makes any difference, but I have been listening on the radio and following TU basketball since Clarence Iba was the head coach. I started going to TU basketball games when Joe Swank was the head coach.
 
If any three of these items are true next year then it is time to evaluate if Haith is coming back for the 2018/19 season:

* Performance is = to this year or slightly better(16 or 17 wins RS)
* This year's new players generally don't perform much better than this year.
* Next year's recruits don't make the team any better.
* The recruits we sign in November are not impressive.
* We don't make the nit or ncaa or are not at very least a bubble team for the nit.

If 2 or less are true then he will probably be our coach in 2018. Either way he will and should be our coach in 2017.
 
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I've been going since the Steve Bracey-Dana Lewis era at the Fairgrounds Pavilion, when I was a kid. I agree with at least one more season for Haith. I like Gmoney's criteria.

We have moved up in conference/competition.
We need to continue to upgrade talent.
 
Gmoney4WW is on point with his post...

This time of year is interesting when TU isn't in the tourney/post-season...

I like to watch the teams competing for the dance to see how TU "stacks up" in comparison...

When watching the conference semifinals and finals, TU has a ways to go to "get back" to that level, especially at the guard positions.

So many of the contending teams' guards play with uber-confidence. Excellent ball handling, quick passing, and no-consequence shooting. The ball seldom sticks on the perimeter.

Our guard play was sluggish, especially when Wheeler would hold the ball for potential penetration.

I'm hoping Scott and Joiner will help in this area. Korita will need to fall back into a "sniper role"...catch and shoot. I still have high hopes for him.
 
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With where we are, we need at least a very good coach to reach the level we want. The only thing that matters is how we get that next very good coach. Maybe it's Haith, maybe it's not, but it really doesn't matter - if it's not him, then the decision on his future should be all about what we need to do to maximize our chance of getting the next very good one. Dumping Haith in a way that limits our ability to get the level we need with the next guy is just out of the frying pan and into the fire. I'd rather keep Haith for an extra year than dump him in a way that means we get stuck with another Wojick for 4 or more years.
 
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hotterthanyourhusbandTU said:
Gmoney4WW is on point with his post...

This time of year is interesting when TU isn't in the tourney/post-season...

I like to watch the teams competing for the dance to see how TU "stacks up" in comparison...

When watching the conference semifinals and finals, TU has a ways to go to "get back" to that level, especially at the guard positions.

So many of the contending teams' guards play with uber-confidence. Excellent ball handling, quick passing, and no-consequence shooting. The ball seldom sticks on the perimeter.

Our guard play was sluggish, especially when Wheeler would hold the ball for potential penetration.

I'm hoping Scott and Joiner will help in this area. Korita will need to fall back into a "sniper role"...catch and shoot. I still have high hopes for him.
Click to expand...

Did you happen to catch the VCU/RI game? Those VCU guards...wow. St. Mary's got a terrible draw with VCU as the 10 seed
 
I'm sorry but a lot of you guys drive me nuts. Beginning of season you were stating if the team hit .500 this year you would say it was a good season. We didn't quite hit that mark but we also didn't think we would play the 60th toughest schedule. Our schedule ended up being much much harder than we anticipated and they showed some greatness during some games and some very young displays of collapse as well. To suggest firing Haith is just a knee-jerk reaction and honestly seems pretty immature. We all knew this was a rebuilding year, we all knew we would struggle to even hit .500. So we did exactly what we thought and now we want to fire everyone. The only thing I found unacceptable is our fan base sometimes. Can't show up to games, can't support the team, can't even throw proper tail-gate parties. I love my TU and I always will but our fans need some readjusting.
 
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There's literally only one person calling for firing and everyone else is calling him out.
 
This thread. During the season I saw it multiple times from multiple people.
 
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Well that's a tiny minority of clearly infrequent posters. I'm one of the crabbiest about the season and I haven't ever gone far.
 
Gmoney4WW said:
If any three of these items are true next year then it is time to evaluate if Haith is coming back for the 2018/19 season:

* Performance is = to this year or slightly better(16 or 17 wins RS)
* This year's new players generally don't perform much better than this year.
* Next year's recruits don't make the team any better.
* The recruits we sign in November are not impressive.
* We don't make the nit or ncaa or are not at very least a bubble team for the nit.

If 2 or less are true then he will probably be our coach in 2018. Either way he will and should be our coach in 2017.
Click to expand...
The one thing I would say is bubble NIT is far too little to expect out of your basketball coach. He had his rebuilding season. It's a firm NIT bid for me or bust.

The problem I see with all this is his contract is longer than I initially thought. I've seen it reported as 6-7 years at close to 2 million dollars. He's not living up to that price tag by any means, but I don't think we will have money to do a 2 or 3 year buyout and pay another coach.
 
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Wow. My meds must be really good.

Gold and I are on the same side of the issue...

Firing Haith accomplishes nothing. At this time. Other than making you look like your expectations are too high.

If performance does not improve next yr then it will be time to begin the discussion.

This will be a painful firing because not only will Haith have to go, but, in my opinion Dr. Gragg will need to go as well... it will be not just a basketball issue, but, an issue of the health of the athletic department as a whole.
 
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I'm hoping they front loaded his contract so he would get a nice initial payday, and if he did well, they could negotiate an extension in his 4th or 5th year. We don't want to be stuck on the line with him and a tanking program without the means to make a change. That might all be dreaming on my part though.
 
noble cane said:
Wow. My meds must be really good.

Gold and I are on the same side of the issue...

Firing Haith accomplishes nothing. At this time. Other than making you look like your expectations are too high.

If performance does not improve next yr then it will be time to begin the discussion.

This will be a painful firing because not only will Haith have to go, but, in my opinion Dr. Gragg will need to go as well... it will be not just a basketball issue, but, an issue of the health of the athletic department as a whole.
Click to expand...

Thank the ACA!

You know we just gave Gragg an extension, right?
 
astonmartin708 said:
The one thing I would say is bubble NIT is far too little to expect out of your basketball coach. He had his rebuilding season. It's a firm NIT bid for me or bust.

The problem I see with all this is his contract is longer than I initially thought. I've seen it reported as 6-7 years at close to 2 million dollars. He's not living up to that price tag by any means, but I don't think we will have money to do a 2 or 3 year buyout and pay another coach.
Click to expand...
I knew somebody would end up carping over that when I typed it, thanks for making that be true Aston. You need to read the post as a whole. If he can't even make nit bubble, and he screws up on a couple of other line items in that post then he is probably gone. Yes it is below what expectations for that season should be, but it is only one minimum requirement for not canning him.

I'm glad you reminded me that his contract is for 6 or 7 years. It kinda makes this whole debate(past, present, and future) moot in these financial times for TU. God I hope it's 6 if he continues to perform like this season, but I don't think it's 6, I remember it as the dreaded 7. 7 years, just like with Doug. That 6th & 7th year will probably be so reminiscent of Dougie's final years if it goes that way. Good times!
 
TUFan1981 said:
Is anyone else flat out frustrated that we are not a perennial contender for an NCAA tournament bid?
Click to expand...

I understand your expectations. Don't think they're realistic just yet. No disrespect, but I think most of the people on here are much older. I grew up during the Tubby, Robinson, Self years. We had season tickets since I was born, but when I was old enough to remember/understand the game, was right when we went on the NCAA run: from 1994 to 2003. 8 out of those 9 years, we were in the NCAA tourney. The other year was a bit of a down year, we won the NIT Championship. So that was the TU basketball I knew. Sold out arenas. Raucous crowds. Great teams. NCAA expectations. It's hard to go from those years, to what we endured that decade until 2014 NCAA team.

I think people on here remember how low things got. I remember Jason Parker jawing back and forth/yelling obscenities to TU fans in the lower level. It got so bad, so quick. Kyle Blankenship starting PG at home vs. Gonzaga. Deion James. Oswaldo Gonzalez. Trevor Meier. The list goes on. 3 and a half years of atrocious recruiting by JP absolutely killed all the momentum we had built. Woj got a bit of respect back, then digressed. He was here 2 years too long, benefited from playing weak non-conference schedules and in a weak CUSA conference. Manning showed it is possible to get back to the NCAA. I think history will repeat itself and we will be once again be perennial NCAA tourney bid contenders.

Last 4 years = 2 NCAA's and 1 NIT. I think we are finally digging ourselves out of the hole. Expectations will be higher next year, and the following year.
 
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Air_Raid918 said:
Last 4 years = 2 NCAA's and 1 NIT. I think we are finally digging ourselves out of the hole. Expectations will be higher next year, and the following year.
Click to expand...

Sorry Folk's us older, longer term fans expect more from our program. I'm not advocating firing Haith but @ the same time, TU teams should @ least B an annual "bubble" NIT/NCAA team 4 consideration.

Re Load? Re fix? Is it coaching? Is it recruiting?
Hopefully, Haith & his coaching team are as disappointed as we are. We need 2 right this ship quickly or we are in danger of fallen N2 another JP/"Oh No" we still have Wojo curse.

Sadly, the trend 4 the NCAA Tourney is 2 "offer" even less open bids 2 mid majors than the P5 schools

# of open invited NCAA bids not P5 or Big Least teams
2017: 4
2016: 6
2015: 7
2014: 10
2013: 11

Non-Power At-Larges:

2017: Cincinnati (AAC), Dayton (A-10), St. Mary's (WCC), VCU (A-10)
2016: Temple (AAC), Wichita St (MVC), Cincinnati (AAC), VCU (A-10), Tulsa (AAC), Dayton (A-10)
2015: Wichita St (MVC), Cincinnati (AAC), BYU (WCC), Boise St (MWC), Dayton (A-10), San Diego St (MWC), Davidson (A-10)
2014: VCU (A-10), Dayton (A-10), San Diego St (MWC), BYU (WCC), Cincinnati (AAC), Connecticut (AAC), Memphis (AAC), George Washington (A-10), Saint Louis (A-10), Massachusetts (A-10)
2013: VCU (A-10), San Diego St (MWC), Wichita St (MVC), Boise St (MWC), La Salle (A-10), UNLV (MWC), Butler (A-10), Temple (A-10), Colorado St (MWC), Middle Tennessee (SBC), St. Mary's (WCC)

Of these...

A-10: 15 (4x Dayton, 4x VCU, 1x Davidson, 1x George Washington, 1x Saint Louis, 1x Massachusetts, 1x La Salle, 1x Butler, 1x Temple)
AAC: 8 (4x Cincinnati, 1x Connecticut, 1x Memphis, 1x Temple, 1x Tulsa)
MWC: 7 (3x San Diego St, 2x Boise St, 1x UNLV, 1x Colorado St)
WCC: 4 (2x St. Mary's, 2x BYU - conference dominated by Gonzaga)
MVC: 3 (3x Wichita St)
SBC: 1 (1x Middle Tennessee)

The Non-Power At-Large spots were/are essentially dominated by the same conferences and schools.
 
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