TU #195 US News 2024 rankings.

[lawpoke87]

So, my son just got accepted to TU. Apparently TU has a process where if you submit your test scores and GPA and they meet a certain minimum threshhold, you are automatically accepted contingent upon TU getting a copy of your HS transcript and test scores. The acceptance also came with a pretty sizable scholarship.

Alas, he doesn't want to be anywhere near Oklahoma for school. He may not have much of a choice unless he finds some ways to help fund his dream school.

I assume TU’s financial offer is significant better than his out of state options ?

 

[TU_BLA]

I assume TU’s financial offer is significant better than his out of state options ?

Well, TU's is the only one we've seen so far. He hasn't even officially completed his applications (Common App or individual schools) yet. A lot of schools use something called "MyInTUITION" calculator to help applicants come up with an anticipated family contribution. Unfortunately many schools have gone to 100% need based financial aid but what many of them expect from a family contribution asks you to dip into retirement plans and investments.

My wife found it odd that a friend's daughter went to OSU this year. She was a valedictorian at Union, graduated with distinction because of her community service hours, National Honor Society, 4 yr varsity member of the pom team and captain her senior year, and OSU didn't offer her any merit based scholarship, just need based financial aid. My assumption is it's hard for a school like OSU to offer merit based when they have to meet the need of a much larger incoming class. Most of those merit based scholarships would have to be backed by money coming from donors. Their family is similar to ours and I would think we fall similarly along the annual income.

 

[drboobay]

So, my son just got accepted to TU. Apparently TU has a process where if you submit your test scores and GPA and they meet a certain minimum threshhold, you are automatically accepted contingent upon TU getting a copy of your HS transcript and test scores. The acceptance also came with a pretty sizable scholarship.

Alas, he doesn't want to be anywhere near Oklahoma for school. He may not have much of a choice unless he finds some ways to help fund his dream school.

That sounds very familiar. Like 2022 familiar from my daughter. Though she didn't apply that early.

She is now a happy TU freshman. She knew the limits of what we would pay and that any difference would be in loans for her to repay. She does have some unsubsidized federal loans because the FAFSA is garbage. But it will be manageable.

 

[TU_BLA]

That sounds very familiar. Like 2022 familiar from my daughter. Though she didn't apply that early.

She is now a happy TU freshman. She knew the limits of what we would pay and that any difference would be in loans for her to repay. She does have some unsubsidized federal loans because the FAFSA is garbage. But it will be manageable.

So surprise to us, the FAFSA isn't available until Dec. 1 this year but the CSS which almost every school makes you complete, is available now. It carries an application fee. What we don't know is do we have to pay that fee for every school or just one time? Unlike my wife and I who only applied to 2-3 schools each, he's got about 10 on his list (he's got more but we are forcing him to pare it down). MIT's application fee is $80 and now with this CSS I'm thinking I need to work from home for several months to save the $1000 on gas to pay for all these application fees 😂 By contrast, I think I paid a grand total of $50 for my application fees 30 years ago (UMASS app was free, TU and BU were $25/ea.) Of course all my apps were paper and I didn't feel like filling a bunch out. Now, it's all on computer and easy...copy and paste.

 

[HuffyCane]

Donors don’t give to merit based scholarship funds anymore. Too elitist. The schools don’t want to ask for it that way either.

Fortunately, college is absurdly expensive, so just about everyone qualifies for some kind of “need” based scholarship even if their parents are sitting on $600,000 in unrealized capital gains in their upper middle class Bixby home.

So they do tuition discounts to remain competitive and call it merit or need based aid, but what it’s really all about is knowing what you can pay and offering just enough to keep you from going up the road.

This game is very sophisticated and the schools have spent billions on it. Each school knows exactly what you can pay and exactly what your other schools you are considering can pay, and they know this info often times before you ever even apply. Some schools are so heavily invested in this it goes beyond zip code. Their offers are based on things like what magazines you subscribe to, how many vehicles are titled in your name, etc. They know a lot about you. Sometimes more than you know about yourself. Not every school is like that, but those that are it’s like telling them you can’t afford their offer is one hundred times more futile than telling a used car dealer whose checked your credit you can’t afford the payments. They know you can. The trick is getting to an amount that is mutually acceptable. You’d be surprised how you do that.

Some schools are tying aid offers based in part on esoteric concepts like social media and internet interaction between the applicant and school, timing of campus visit, geography, high school counselor tip offs and other factors.

OSU doesn’t care if you come to the school or not. In most cases, the price is pretty much the price. And they don’t care if you drop out or not for the most part. They aren’t worried about debt servicing, retention numbers, or lost investment by admitting you and not someone else who could finish.

At private schools, all those factors are in play and more. In particular, retention.

I’ve helped guide more than a dozen kids through the admissions process over the last decade. Several Ivys, OU, TU, TCU, SMU, several TU. Most ended up paying nothing or close to it. Even helped one into Harvard Law School once she graduated under grad.

It’s a huge mistake to have a long list of interested schools. And an even bigger mistake to have a “shop around” attitude.

College admission numbers are way down and retention is in the toilet. Private schools worth a darn, including to a certain extent TU, don’t have time or interest in recruiting you. They certainly don’t want you to be treating them like a safety school where you pay a deposit then bleed elsewhere over the summer when where you really want to go opens up a spot. They want kids they decide are a good fit at a price that works and they stay until they finish.

They track carefully when you apply, where you visited on their website, which links you clicked, which videos you watched etc. They know from data informed decisions how these factors play into retention.

And that plays a role in whether you get in and what your discount will be.

Anybody worth admitting at an elite school coming out of Tulsa area publics should narrow their interests to a stretch school, a goal school, where they plan on going, and OU. No more.

And then you need to go about exploring whether those schools are a good fit and the right decision for both the student and the school. And then prove that with targeted interactions in person and online, bolstered by high school counselor reinforcement, if possible and a pre-existing relationship. This is often the difference between going to SMU/TCU for nearly free or paying $100,000.00 in my very limited observation. Don’t think you can get into Tulane? Maybe you are interested in a major that they struggle in. They are the worst in the country in need based aid, but don’t be surprised if it’s nearly free if you want to study something they are interested in attracting for whatever reason.

That’s probably the biggest mistake parents make dealing with private schools. They want their kids to get into the best school possible where they will be happy. And they generally want that for free. They never think about maybe it’s the school choosing them, not the other way around. Some are betting as much as a half million dollars depending on the major that your kid will finish to get a return of maybe $100,000 at most. They don’t have time for kids who barely have the math skill and might get homesick.

Get to know the school intimately and make sure the school knows you intimately. Otherwise, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. A shotgun approach is the exact wrong thing to do.

 

[drboobay]

Donors don’t give to merit based scholarship funds anymore. Too elitist. The schools don’t want to ask for it that way either.

Fortunately, college is absurdly expensive, so just about everyone qualifies for some kind of “need” based scholarship even if their parents are sitting on $600,000 in unrealized capital gains in their upper middle class Bixby home.

So they do tuition discounts to remain competitive and call it merit or need based aid, but what it’s really all about is knowing what you can pay and offering just enough to keep you from going up the road.

This game is very sophisticated and the schools have spent billions on it. Each school knows exactly what you can pay and exactly what your other schools you are considering can pay, and they know this info often times before you ever even apply. Some schools are so heavily invested in this it goes beyond zip code. Their offers are based on things like what magazines you subscribe to, how many vehicles are titled in your name, etc. They know a lot about you. Sometimes more than you know about yourself. Not every school is like that, but those that are it’s like telling them you can’t afford their offer is one hundred times more futile than telling a used car dealer whose checked your credit you can’t afford the payments. They know you can. The trick is getting to an amount that is mutually acceptable. You’d be surprised how you do that.

Some schools are tying aid offers based in part on esoteric concepts like social media and internet interaction between the applicant and school, timing of campus visit, geography, high school counselor tip offs and other factors.

OSU doesn’t care if you come to the school or not. In most cases, the price is pretty much the price. And they don’t care if you drop out or not for the most part. They aren’t worried about debt servicing, retention numbers, or lost investment by admitting you and not someone else who could finish.

At private schools, all those factors are in play and more. In particular, retention.

I’ve helped guide more than a dozen kids through the admissions process over the last decade. Several Ivys, OU, TU, TCU, SMU, several TU. Most ended up paying nothing or close to it. Even helped one into Harvard Law School once she graduated under grad.

It’s a huge mistake to have a long list of interested schools. And an even bigger mistake to have a “shop around” attitude.

College admission numbers are way down and retention is in the toilet. Private schools worth a darn, including to a certain extent TU, don’t have time or interest in recruiting you. They certainly don’t want you to be treating them like a safety school where you pay a deposit then bleed elsewhere over the summer when where you really want to go opens up a spot. They want kids they decide are a good fit at a price that works and they stay until they finish.

They track carefully when you apply, where you visited on their website, which links you clicked, which videos you watched etc. They know from data informed decisions how these factors play into retention.

And that plays a role in whether you get in and what your discount will be.

Anybody worth admitting at an elite school coming out of Tulsa area publics should narrow their interests to a stretch school, a goal school, where they plan on going, and OU. No more.

And then you need to go about exploring whether those schools are a good fit and the right decision for both the student and the school. And then prove that with targeted interactions in person and online, bolstered by high school counselor reinforcement, if possible and a pre-existing relationship. This is often the difference between going to SMU/TCU for nearly free or paying $100,000.00 in my very limited observation. Don’t think you can get into Tulane? Maybe you are interested in a major that they struggle in. They are the worst in the country in need based aid, but don’t be surprised if it’s nearly free if you want to study something they are interested in attracting for whatever reason.

That’s probably the biggest mistake parents make dealing with private schools. They want their kids to get into the best school possible where they will be happy. And they generally want that for free. They never think about maybe it’s the school choosing them, not the other way around. Some are betting as much as a half million dollars depending on the major that your kid will finish to get a return of maybe $100,000 at most. They don’t have time for kids who barely have the math skill and might get homesick.

Get to know the school intimately and make sure the school knows you intimately. Otherwise, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. A shotgun approach is the exact wrong thing to do.

If your intention is to convey the perspective of the universities in admissions, then fair enough. I suspect this is a pretty accurate summary.

But I think there is a certain arrogance in saying "each school knows exactly what you can pay" because that's impossible. A late arriving $15,000 private scholarship from a cultural organization was the difference between my daughter taking on private loans or not to finance her college education. She will also come out of school with about $25,000 in unsubsidized federal loans - managable like a car payment, but not free.

It might be fairer to say that the schools don't really care about individual circumstances and are trying to work the odds. And that's OK from a business perspective.

 

[TU_BLA]

Donors don’t give to merit based scholarship funds anymore. Too elitist. The schools don’t want to ask for it that way either.

Fortunately, college is absurdly expensive, so just about everyone qualifies for some kind of “need” based scholarship even if their parents are sitting on $600,000 in unrealized capital gains in their upper middle class Bixby home.

So they do tuition discounts to remain competitive and call it merit or need based aid, but what it’s really all about is knowing what you can pay and offering just enough to keep you from going up the road.

This game is very sophisticated and the schools have spent billions on it. Each school knows exactly what you can pay and exactly what your other schools you are considering can pay, and they know this info often times before you ever even apply. Some schools are so heavily invested in this it goes beyond zip code. Their offers are based on things like what magazines you subscribe to, how many vehicles are titled in your name, etc. They know a lot about you. Sometimes more than you know about yourself. Not every school is like that, but those that are it’s like telling them you can’t afford their offer is one hundred times more futile than telling a used car dealer whose checked your credit you can’t afford the payments. They know you can. The trick is getting to an amount that is mutually acceptable. You’d be surprised how you do that.

Some schools are tying aid offers based in part on esoteric concepts like social media and internet interaction between the applicant and school, timing of campus visit, geography, high school counselor tip offs and other factors.

OSU doesn’t care if you come to the school or not. In most cases, the price is pretty much the price. And they don’t care if you drop out or not for the most part. They aren’t worried about debt servicing, retention numbers, or lost investment by admitting you and not someone else who could finish.

At private schools, all those factors are in play and more. In particular, retention.

I’ve helped guide more than a dozen kids through the admissions process over the last decade. Several Ivys, OU, TU, TCU, SMU, several TU. Most ended up paying nothing or close to it. Even helped one into Harvard Law School once she graduated under grad.

It’s a huge mistake to have a long list of interested schools. And an even bigger mistake to have a “shop around” attitude.

College admission numbers are way down and retention is in the toilet. Private schools worth a darn, including to a certain extent TU, don’t have time or interest in recruiting you. They certainly don’t want you to be treating them like a safety school where you pay a deposit then bleed elsewhere over the summer when where you really want to go opens up a spot. They want kids they decide are a good fit at a price that works and they stay until they finish.

They track carefully when you apply, where you visited on their website, which links you clicked, which videos you watched etc. They know from data informed decisions how these factors play into retention.

And that plays a role in whether you get in and what your discount will be.

Anybody worth admitting at an elite school coming out of Tulsa area publics should narrow their interests to a stretch school, a goal school, where they plan on going, and OU. No more.

And then you need to go about exploring whether those schools are a good fit and the right decision for both the student and the school. And then prove that with targeted interactions in person and online, bolstered by high school counselor reinforcement, if possible and a pre-existing relationship. This is often the difference between going to SMU/TCU for nearly free or paying $100,000.00 in my very limited observation. Don’t think you can get into Tulane? Maybe you are interested in a major that they struggle in. They are the worst in the country in need based aid, but don’t be surprised if it’s nearly free if you want to study something they are interested in attracting for whatever reason.

That’s probably the biggest mistake parents make dealing with private schools. They want their kids to get into the best school possible where they will be happy. And they generally want that for free. They never think about maybe it’s the school choosing them, not the other way around. Some are betting as much as a half million dollars depending on the major that your kid will finish to get a return of maybe $100,000 at most. They don’t have time for kids who barely have the math skill and might get homesick.

Get to know the school intimately and make sure the school knows you intimately. Otherwise, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. A shotgun approach is the exact wrong thing to do.

The "Do you track demonstrated interest?" was a question my son asked of every school he visited yesterday. MIT does not, Tufts does, UChicago does (UChicago is out of the running though as they do not have electrical engineering), Case Western Reserve does, most of the Ivy's do, CalTech sort of does.

MIT and CalTech don't because almost every STEM interested HS Jr and Sr with 4.0 GPAs (or higher on the weighted scale), ACT scores 35+, and several 5's on AP exams, hit their websites. They are schools where the students are chasing them and they won't chase prospective students....because they don't need to. Their application processes are difficult by design, the app fees are high by design. They don't want kids applying to those schools on whims because they already take in 50-60k applications a year. CalTech admits about 300 UG students in each class. Do the math. MIT admits about 1000-1200.

Michigan and Mizzou basically both told my son he would be accepted and would get merit scholarships that would cover most of everything. Mizzou would even grant in state tuition after a year. My wife is trying to get him to look at University of Illinois because their EE program is rated highly. Right now part of the problem is he is looking at rating of the program and not some of the other factors...and the admissions reps from the schools last night did a great job of making sure that the students knew how to find a good fit for them and what they were wanting. While my son really wants the MIT experience probably so he can say he went to MIT, of the schools we've visited, I really felt like WPI was the best fit for him just knowing the type of person he is. BU would not be a good fit for him. We're set to visit WashU in St. Louis at the end of the month. He's already said he hasn't really considered it and I think it's because he's worried of the surprise drop in from Grandma or Grandpa. But I think that type of campus, smaller school setting is where he'll thrive vs. the larger urban schools.

Huffy, I'd live to pick your brain some more on this. I know TU would be a good fit for his personality but I also think he's looking to get away. He's known TU literally since the day he was born as when we brought him home from the hospital, he lived in Twin with us (I was the RD at the time). We have good friends in fairly high admin roles at TU still who have known him since the day he was born. I get wanting to go out and do your own thing and be your own person and not "A & B's kid).

 

[TU_BLA]

If your intention is to convey the perspective of the universities in admissions, then fair enough. I suspect this is a pretty accurate summary.

But I think there is a certain arrogance in saying "each school knows exactly what you can pay" because that's impossible. A late arriving $15,000 private scholarship from a cultural organization was the difference between my daughter taking on private loans or not to finance her college education. She will also come out of school with about $25,000 in unsubsidized federal loans - managable like a car payment, but not free.

It might be fairer to say that the schools don't really care about individual circumstances and are trying to work the odds. And that's OK from a business perspective.

Yeah, the fact that this CSS and the "MyInTuition" tool ask you to include your investments and retirement savings as part of their calculations tells me they somewhat expect you to use those sources to fund their expensive tuition vs being able to afford to live in our later years. And if you have any suggestions on private scholarships available, I welcome any suggestions. He's applied for several so far but it's hard to find scholarship opportunities for individuals who don't fall into a racial or ethnic minority group, whose parents both have college educations and decent jobs. There are a few he'll get automatically for being an Eagle Scout.

 

[chito_and_leon]

Donors don’t give to merit based scholarship funds anymore. Too elitist. The schools don’t want to ask for it that way either.

Fortunately, college is absurdly expensive, so just about everyone qualifies for some kind of “need” based scholarship even if their parents are sitting on $600,000 in unrealized capital gains in their upper middle class Bixby home.

So they do tuition discounts to remain competitive and call it merit or need based aid, but what it’s really all about is knowing what you can pay and offering just enough to keep you from going up the road.

This game is very sophisticated and the schools have spent billions on it. Each school knows exactly what you can pay and exactly what your other schools you are considering can pay, and they know this info often times before you ever even apply. Some schools are so heavily invested in this it goes beyond zip code. Their offers are based on things like what magazines you subscribe to, how many vehicles are titled in your name, etc. They know a lot about you. Sometimes more than you know about yourself. Not every school is like that, but those that are it’s like telling them you can’t afford their offer is one hundred times more futile than telling a used car dealer whose checked your credit you can’t afford the payments. They know you can. The trick is getting to an amount that is mutually acceptable. You’d be surprised how you do that.

Some schools are tying aid offers based in part on esoteric concepts like social media and internet interaction between the applicant and school, timing of campus visit, geography, high school counselor tip offs and other factors.

OSU doesn’t care if you come to the school or not. In most cases, the price is pretty much the price. And they don’t care if you drop out or not for the most part. They aren’t worried about debt servicing, retention numbers, or lost investment by admitting you and not someone else who could finish.

At private schools, all those factors are in play and more. In particular, retention.

I’ve helped guide more than a dozen kids through the admissions process over the last decade. Several Ivys, OU, TU, TCU, SMU, several TU. Most ended up paying nothing or close to it. Even helped one into Harvard Law School once she graduated under grad.

It’s a huge mistake to have a long list of interested schools. And an even bigger mistake to have a “shop around” attitude.

College admission numbers are way down and retention is in the toilet. Private schools worth a darn, including to a certain extent TU, don’t have time or interest in recruiting you. They certainly don’t want you to be treating them like a safety school where you pay a deposit then bleed elsewhere over the summer when where you really want to go opens up a spot. They want kids they decide are a good fit at a price that works and they stay until they finish.

They track carefully when you apply, where you visited on their website, which links you clicked, which videos you watched etc. They know from data informed decisions how these factors play into retention.

And that plays a role in whether you get in and what your discount will be.

Anybody worth admitting at an elite school coming out of Tulsa area publics should narrow their interests to a stretch school, a goal school, where they plan on going, and OU. No more.

And then you need to go about exploring whether those schools are a good fit and the right decision for both the student and the school. And then prove that with targeted interactions in person and online, bolstered by high school counselor reinforcement, if possible and a pre-existing relationship. This is often the difference between going to SMU/TCU for nearly free or paying $100,000.00 in my very limited observation. Don’t think you can get into Tulane? Maybe you are interested in a major that they struggle in. They are the worst in the country in need based aid, but don’t be surprised if it’s nearly free if you want to study something they are interested in attracting for whatever reason.

That’s probably the biggest mistake parents make dealing with private schools. They want their kids to get into the best school possible where they will be happy. And they generally want that for free. They never think about maybe it’s the school choosing them, not the other way around. Some are betting as much as a half million dollars depending on the major that your kid will finish to get a return of maybe $100,000 at most. They don’t have time for kids who barely have the math skill and might get homesick.

Get to know the school intimately and make sure the school knows you intimately. Otherwise, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. A shotgun approach is the exact wrong thing to do.

I worked with a bunch of ed tech startups a few years ago and at the time, most universities were shockingly unsophisticated about how to think about what they do as a profit making undertaking. And the state of technology was even worse - to say that ed tech had been a backwater of tech financing would be to vastly overstate the focus it had received. A lot has changed in the last several years and money has flooded into ed tech but much of what you say is more aspirational for most schools than real. Especially smaller schools. They're nowhere near other businesses on understanding how to value leads.

 

[HuffyCane]

The average parent would be shocked at what some near Ivys on the East Coast know about them. Many, if not most, invest heavily in purchasing products from companies that mine your publicly available data. Where you shop, what kind of junk mail you get, what Facebook will sell them, what magazines you subscribe to, and the aforesaid things like owning multiple vehicles like boats and trailers. They know how much you make, what you owe, what you paid for your house, what it is worth now. Trust me dude, those schools know. And many, though not all, do listen when parents tell them things that dont show up on paper, like paying to care for an ailing relative. What doesn't go over well is when someone is sitting on a home that has double in value in the last ten years, they have a 3% mortgage and a Lexus and try to say they can't pay for OSU because they bought as much as they could afford in a lot of other categories besides college education financing.

TU is a bit of a different story. TU didn't have the desire or capacity to use those types of tools until recently. The admission process was rolling and not highly selective. Carson did a video early on and mentioned that would be changing when he came in, so I take his word for it. He has said repeatedly he believes those that can pay should pay something so that those that cannot can attend. It sounds like your daughter may be in that category but that's a guess.

What I do know is that every school has "institutional priorities" that shape admissions and parents just dont get that and dont take time to investigate that. And TU is no different. Parents should boldly ask what the school's institutional priorities are and ask whether their child's planned field of study is part of that. Parse carefully the answer.

There is a student admitted into this year's TU freshman class who is going free and their parents, on paper, are millionaires. That's mostly the value of their unencumbered home and state funded pensions, but gross family salary exceeds $300,000 a year with three college aged children. The student is talented, but chose TU because the parents knew that the school was hoping to bolster a particular program, so they sought after TU, rather than Texas or the Ivys. They were willing to pay the full fare, even borrow against the home to do it, and didn't believe me when I said I would be surprised if TU charged them anything. They couldn't believe it when they got the full ride. I guess they think a rare bottle of whiskey makes up for saving them $100,000, but I'll take it. The school got a great student. Being willing to be part of the solution of struggling program makes a difference.

Conversely, another student I am aware of is the only child of two parents with professional jobs and advanced degrees living in a fine home in a suburb of Tulsa. She chose TU over OU and was given a competitive package but with a significant price tag. She did not apply to TU until spring of her senior year. She is studying Psychology and Exercise Science. Two strong programs at TU that are popular and that attract many applications.

If you choose to apply for programs like that, with that timing, you venture into the realm of LMO. An industry term of art that pejoratively comments on hyper qualified deserving students who are nevertheless Like Many Others. They dont align with the institutional goals of the institution. Their accomplishments, while impressive, are not distinctive. Folks like that are gonna have to pay to get a spot. You are essentially bidding on a spot in many ways. Those that bid late, bid more. Naturally, that draws the ire of many folks that think college admissions perpetuate a class system or price should be based on merit alone.

I once told an old law partner, a very very very proud Cornell alum, that his daughter was not getting into Brown, which was her dream school and very strong in her major. He admitted her credentials were not good enough for Cornell, even with his legacy and giving status. He was clearly very concerned she was not going to have the same opportunities as he and his wife. And was clearly put back that some dude from Tulsa was telling him who was Ivy and who wasn't. I knew she was a good swimmer from four years on varsity at a large school in Texas so I told him to have her apply at Dartmouth. Dartmouth has a long connection to the sport of swimming. Not long ago they dropped the requirement to swim a mile for you to graduate. And she was interested in a program that was smallish at Dartmouth. She got into Dartmouth and Texas, denied at Brown and Yale. Waited at Cornell. She graduated with honors from Dartmouth a couple of years ago. Im probably the only person she sends a christmas card to.

 

[chito_and_leon]

The "Do you track demonstrated interest?" was a question my son asked of every school he visited yesterday. MIT does not, Tufts does, UChicago does (UChicago is out of the running though as they do not have electrical engineering), Case Western Reserve does, most of the Ivy's do, CalTech sort of does.

MIT and CalTech don't because almost every STEM interested HS Jr and Sr with 4.0 GPAs (or higher on the weighted scale), ACT scores 35+, and several 5's on AP exams, hit their websites. They are schools where the students are chasing them and they won't chase prospective students....because they don't need to. Their application processes are difficult by design, the app fees are high by design. They don't want kids applying to those schools on whims because they already take in 50-60k applications a year. CalTech admits about 300 UG students in each class. Do the math. MIT admits about 1000-1200.

Michigan and Mizzou basically both told my son he would be accepted and would get merit scholarships that would cover most of everything. Mizzou would even grant in state tuition after a year. My wife is trying to get him to look at University of Illinois because their EE program is rated highly. Right now part of the problem is he is looking at rating of the program and not some of the other factors...and the admissions reps from the schools last night did a great job of making sure that the students knew how to find a good fit for them and what they were wanting. While my son really wants the MIT experience probably so he can say he went to MIT, of the schools we've visited, I really felt like WPI was the best fit for him just knowing the type of person he is. BU would not be a good fit for him. We're set to visit WashU in St. Louis at the end of the month. He's already said he hasn't really considered it and I think it's because he's worried of the surprise drop in from Grandma or Grandpa. But I think that type of campus, smaller school setting is where he'll thrive vs. the larger urban schools.

Huffy, I'd live to pick your brain some more on this. I know TU would be a good fit for his personality but I also think he's looking to get away. He's known TU literally since the day he was born as when we brought him home from the hospital, he lived in Twin with us (I was the RD at the time). We have good friends in fairly high admin roles at TU still who have known him since the day he was born. I get wanting to go out and do your own thing and be your own person and not "A & B's kid).

Have you toured Illinois? I can't imagine anyone having a choice of Michigan, Missouri and Illinois and not picking Michigan, not just based on quality, and I hate Michigan. Cambridge is a fun place to spend 4 years. I think the main impact of someplace like MIT or Michigan is the ease and support to build something yourself. Does he want a job or does he want to build something, or be part of building something? That's probably the main difference on "quality" of the places you're looking. And location. E.g., Wash U is more limiting geographically.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/does-it-matter-where-you-go-college/577816/

https://pitchbook.com/news/articles/pitchbook-university-rankings

 

[drboobay]

The average parent would be shocked at what some near Ivys on the East Coast know about them. Many, if not most, invest heavily in purchasing products from companies that mine your publicly available data. Where you shop, what kind of junk mail you get, what Facebook will sell them, what magazines you subscribe to, and the aforesaid things like owning multiple vehicles like boats and trailers. They know how much you make, what you owe, what you paid for your house, what it is worth now. Trust me dude, those schools know. And many, though not all, do listen when parents tell them things that dont show up on paper, like paying to care for an ailing relative. What doesn't go over well is when someone is sitting on a home that has double in value in the last ten years, they have a 3% mortgage and a Lexus and try to say they can't pay for OSU because they bought as much as they could afford in a lot of other categories besides college education financing.

TU is a bit of a different story. TU didn't have the desire or capacity to use those types of tools until recently. The admission process was rolling and not highly selective. Carson did a video early on and mentioned that would be changing when he came in, so I take his word for it. He has said repeatedly he believes those that can pay should pay something so that those that cannot can attend. It sounds like your daughter may be in that category but that's a guess.

What I do know is that every school has "institutional priorities" that shape admissions and parents just dont get that and dont take time to investigate that. And TU is no different. Parents should boldly ask what the school's institutional priorities are and ask whether their child's planned field of study is part of that. Parse carefully the answer.

There is a student admitted into this year's TU freshman class who is going free and their parents, on paper, are millionaires. That's mostly the value of their unencumbered home and state funded pensions, but gross family salary exceeds $300,000 a year with three college aged children. The student is talented, but chose TU because the parents knew that the school was hoping to bolster a particular program, so they sought after TU, rather than Texas or the Ivys. They were willing to pay the full fare, even borrow against the home to do it, and didn't believe me when I said I would be surprised if TU charged them anything. They couldn't believe it when they got the full ride. I guess they think a rare bottle of whiskey makes up for saving them $100,000, but I'll take it. The school got a great student. Being willing to be part of the solution of struggling program makes a difference.

Conversely, another student I am aware of is the only child of two parents with professional jobs and advanced degrees living in a fine home in a suburb of Tulsa. She chose TU over OU and was given a competitive package but with a significant price tag. She did not apply to TU until spring of her senior year. She is studying Psychology and Exercise Science. Two strong programs at TU that are popular and that attract many applications.

If you choose to apply for programs like that, with that timing, you venture into the realm of LMO. An industry term of art that pejoratively comments on hyper qualified deserving students who are nevertheless Like Many Others. They dont align with the institutional goals of the institution. Their accomplishments, while impressive, are not distinctive. Folks like that are gonna have to pay to get a spot. You are essentially bidding on a spot in many ways. Those that bid late, bid more. Naturally, that draws the ire of many folks that think college admissions perpetuate a class system or price should be based on merit alone.

I once told an old law partner, a very very very proud Cornell alum, that his daughter was not getting into Brown, which was her dream school and very strong in her major. He admitted her credentials were not good enough for Cornell, even with his legacy and giving status. He was clearly very concerned she was not going to have the same opportunities as he and his wife. And was clearly put back that some dude from Tulsa was telling him who was Ivy and who wasn't. I knew she was a good swimmer from four years on varsity at a large school in Texas so I told him to have her apply at Dartmouth. Dartmouth has a long connection to the sport of swimming. Not long ago they dropped the requirement to swim a mile for you to graduate. And she was interested in a program that was smallish at Dartmouth. She got into Dartmouth and Texas, denied at Brown and Yale. Waited at Cornell. She graduated with honors from Dartmouth a couple of years ago. Im probably the only person she sends a christmas card to.

I don't want to belabor the point but we are 2015 Honda people and not Lexus people. And for a variety of reasons we make less now than 5 years ago. But we don't claim poverty and financial stress comes from choices like private school high school tuition. Without that, my daughter would not be accumulating debt. But we must be equitable - all three will get private high school and accumulate college debt.

That's life. It doesn't always feel fair. It just feels a little overblown to assume that an algorithm understands these dynamics at an individual level. Those algorithms don't really care about individuals nor should they really. They serve the organization's objectives and are optimized that way.

 

[chito_and_leon]

The average parent would be shocked at what some near Ivys on the East Coast know about them. Many, if not most, invest heavily in purchasing products from companies that mine your publicly available data. Where you shop, what kind of junk mail you get, what Facebook will sell them, what magazines you subscribe to, and the aforesaid things like owning multiple vehicles like boats and trailers. They know how much you make, what you owe, what you paid for your house, what it is worth now. Trust me dude, those schools know. And many, though not all, do listen when parents tell them things that dont show up on paper, like paying to care for an ailing relative. What doesn't go over well is when someone is sitting on a home that has double in value in the last ten years, they have a 3% mortgage and a Lexus and try to say they can't pay for OSU because they bought as much as they could afford in a lot of other categories besides college education financing.

TU is a bit of a different story. TU didn't have the desire or capacity to use those types of tools until recently. The admission process was rolling and not highly selective. Carson did a video early on and mentioned that would be changing when he came in, so I take his word for it. He has said repeatedly he believes those that can pay should pay something so that those that cannot can attend. It sounds like your daughter may be in that category but that's a guess.

What I do know is that every school has "institutional priorities" that shape admissions and parents just dont get that and dont take time to investigate that. And TU is no different. Parents should boldly ask what the school's institutional priorities are and ask whether their child's planned field of study is part of that. Parse carefully the answer.

There is a student admitted into this year's TU freshman class who is going free and their parents, on paper, are millionaires. That's mostly the value of their unencumbered home and state funded pensions, but gross family salary exceeds $300,000 a year with three college aged children. The student is talented, but chose TU because the parents knew that the school was hoping to bolster a particular program, so they sought after TU, rather than Texas or the Ivys. They were willing to pay the full fare, even borrow against the home to do it, and didn't believe me when I said I would be surprised if TU charged them anything. They couldn't believe it when they got the full ride. I guess they think a rare bottle of whiskey makes up for saving them $100,000, but I'll take it. The school got a great student. Being willing to be part of the solution of struggling program makes a difference.

Conversely, another student I am aware of is the only child of two parents with professional jobs and advanced degrees living in a fine home in a suburb of Tulsa. She chose TU over OU and was given a competitive package but with a significant price tag. She did not apply to TU until spring of her senior year. She is studying Psychology and Exercise Science. Two strong programs at TU that are popular and that attract many applications.

If you choose to apply for programs like that, with that timing, you venture into the realm of LMO. An industry term of art that pejoratively comments on hyper qualified deserving students who are nevertheless Like Many Others. They dont align with the institutional goals of the institution. Their accomplishments, while impressive, are not distinctive. Folks like that are gonna have to pay to get a spot. You are essentially bidding on a spot in many ways. Those that bid late, bid more. Naturally, that draws the ire of many folks that think college admissions perpetuate a class system or price should be based on merit alone.

I once told an old law partner, a very very very proud Cornell alum, that his daughter was not getting into Brown, which was her dream school and very strong in her major. He admitted her credentials were not good enough for Cornell, even with his legacy and giving status. He was clearly very concerned she was not going to have the same opportunities as he and his wife. And was clearly put back that some dude from Tulsa was telling him who was Ivy and who wasn't. I knew she was a good swimmer from four years on varsity at a large school in Texas so I told him to have her apply at Dartmouth. Dartmouth has a long connection to the sport of swimming. Not long ago they dropped the requirement to swim a mile for you to graduate. And she was interested in a program that was smallish at Dartmouth. She got into Dartmouth and Texas, denied at Brown and Yale. Waited at Cornell. She graduated with honors from Dartmouth a couple of years ago. Im probably the only person she sends a christmas card to.

There are certainly schools that are sophisticated with marketing and yield management but what you describe is not the majority of schools for sure. It's also not hard, any company in any space can do what you describe, tho accurately tracking life time value of admitted students is more of a data challenge. But universities came very late to the idea of profitability and tend by DNA not to be good at focusing on business. The good news is that retention is critical for profitability so this is driving a lot of improvements in student life (hello concert for a Starbucks).

Going into a program that schools want to focus on is an interesting question. Do you want to go to the "hope to be up and comer" or the established place? Guess that's an individual decision.

 

[HuffyCane]

I don't want to belabor the point but we are 2015 Honda people and not Lexus people. And for a variety of reasons we make less now than 5 years ago. But we don't claim poverty and financial stress comes from choices like private school high school tuition. Without that, my daughter would not be accumulating debt. But we must be equitable - all three will get private high school and accumulate college debt.

That's life. It doesn't always feel fair. It just feels a little overblown to assume that an algorithm understands these dynamics at an individual level. Those algorithms don't really care about individuals nor should they really. They serve the organization's objectives and are optimized that way.

It sounds like you daughter, while very deserving, may be in an area of high demand, not institutional priority right now. Demonstrated interest from sophomore year on, at a school looking to bolster and expand an institutional offering, likely would have netted her a cost free offer elsewhere. Im glad she's at TU and close to you though. I trust she is doing well and will thrive.

 

[drboobay]

It sounds like you daughter, while very deserving, may be in an area of high demand, not institutional priority right now. Demonstrated interest from sophomore year on, at a school looking to bolster and expand an institutional offering, likely would have netted her a cost free offer elsewhere. Im glad she's at TU and close to you though. I trust she is doing well and will thrive.

Could be. I think we understand one another's points here.

 

[chito_and_leon]

I don't want to belabor the point but we are 2015 Honda people and not Lexus people. And for a variety of reasons we make less now than 5 years ago. But we don't claim poverty and financial stress comes from choices like private school high school tuition. Without that, my daughter would not be accumulating debt. But we must be equitable - all three will get private high school and accumulate college debt.

That's life. It doesn't always feel fair. It just feels a little overblown to assume that an algorithm understands these dynamics at an individual level. Those algorithms don't really care about individuals nor should they really. They serve the organization's objectives and are optimized that way.

Here's what the machines think about you and your life situation

 

[HuffyCane]

The "Do you track demonstrated interest?" was a question my son asked of every school he visited yesterday. MIT does not, Tufts does, UChicago does (UChicago is out of the running though as they do not have electrical engineering), Case Western Reserve does, most of the Ivy's do, CalTech sort of does.

MIT and CalTech don't because almost every STEM interested HS Jr and Sr with 4.0 GPAs (or higher on the weighted scale), ACT scores 35+, and several 5's on AP exams, hit their websites. They are schools where the students are chasing them and they won't chase prospective students....because they don't need to. Their application processes are difficult by design, the app fees are high by design. They don't want kids applying to those schools on whims because they already take in 50-60k applications a year. CalTech admits about 300 UG students in each class. Do the math. MIT admits about 1000-1200.

Michigan and Mizzou basically both told my son he would be accepted and would get merit scholarships that would cover most of everything. Mizzou would even grant in state tuition after a year. My wife is trying to get him to look at University of Illinois because their EE program is rated highly. Right now part of the problem is he is looking at rating of the program and not some of the other factors...and the admissions reps from the schools last night did a great job of making sure that the students knew how to find a good fit for them and what they were wanting. While my son really wants the MIT experience probably so he can say he went to MIT, of the schools we've visited, I really felt like WPI was the best fit for him just knowing the type of person he is. BU would not be a good fit for him. We're set to visit WashU in St. Louis at the end of the month. He's already said he hasn't really considered it and I think it's because he's worried of the surprise drop in from Grandma or Grandpa. But I think that type of campus, smaller school setting is where he'll thrive vs. the larger urban schools.

Huffy, I'd live to pick your brain some more on this. I know TU would be a good fit for his personality but I also think he's looking to get away. He's known TU literally since the day he was born as when we brought him home from the hospital, he lived in Twin with us (I was the RD at the time). We have good friends in fairly high admin roles at TU still who have known him since the day he was born. I get wanting to go out and do your own thing and be your own person and not "A & B's kid).

Glad you and your child know about "demonstrated interest". See my post above about institutional priorities. MIT and CalTech do track interest, though may not admit it and not the way other schools do.

It sounds like your child is at risk of LMO at CalTech and MIT. There aren't many ways around that at those schools. Besides institutional priorities. Find out what those are and be ready with an answer as to why he fits. Geography is in you favor. There's more than one kid who got into Harvard applying from his grandfather's ranch zip code out east of Wagoner or Cherokee County, that's for sure. Find others. Maybe there's an obscure part of the physics program that he's interested in that other kids never ask about and push that. With what little time you have, you need to Bud Fox the school, find out the information you need about what their needs and wants are, then leverage them. A few might need a serviceable walk-on goalkeeper. WashU is probably in that category.

For schools like that, its an uphill battle and kids should never be discouraged. There was that Georgia Tech study years ago complaining that pure math merit based admissions placements would result in every seat in every major at all the Ivys plus every engineering seat at all of the Top 50 engineering programs going to Chinese based applicants, before they ever even considered American applications. So complaints from parents about how their kid deserves a full ride merit because she was a cheerleader and in National Honor Society falls on deaf ears with the people who do this stuff for a living.

He should probably be looking at one or two small mid-western engineering schools like Grinnell or Co Mines if going for free or near free is the goal. The institutional priority/demonstrated interest thing is probably a little late in the game for him, but it doesn't cost very much to try.

And it pains me to say this, but think about UCF or maybe Florida Poly. Believe it or not, some but not all of their engineering is elite, gobs of kids get free rides, out of state tuition in Florida is peanuts and he can go in-state after a year generally if you plan ahead. They might need a walk-on keeper too. Florida Poly just announced a brand new $50 million building iirc. Its in Lakeland which is a hell hole though. Both schools are over leveraged with Florida and foreign students and stated institutional priorities include attracting talent to Florida and retaining it. But again, that's only if we are talking about finding a Top 50 program that wont charge him and then only in particular majors like aerospace.

 

[TU_BLA]

Have you toured Illinois? I can't imagine anyone having a choice of Michigan, Missouri and Illinois and not picking Michigan, not just based on quality, and I hate Michigan. Cambridge is a fun place to spend 4 years. I think the main impact of someplace like MIT or Michigan is the ease and support to build something yourself. Does he want a job or does he want to build something, or be part of building something? That's probably the main difference on "quality" of the places you're looking. And location. E.g., Wash U is more limiting geographically.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/does-it-matter-where-you-go-college/577816/

https://pitchbook.com/news/articles/pitchbook-university-rankings

Mizzou was something my wife and I pushed, mostly because of the ability to earn a nearly full scholarship because of his grades and test scores and he's not from Missouri. I don't think he is seriously considering it. Illinois will be because we are pushing it. Michigan is a recent add to his list and I think it is mostly because of his best friend who has a lot of large B1G and SEC schools on his list. His friend also has no idea what he wants to do later on nor what he wants to study in college. He is looking for a good swimming program that he might be able to walk on to the team.

My son really wants to be at MIT. I said before it might be a reputation thing but I know he wants to do EE and specialize in robotics. He would like to be a part of their competition robotics team(s) and he knows Boston has become the global epicenter for robotics and biotech. Which probably explains the interest in WPI and Tufts as well.

And I think a medium to smaller sized school is where he'll thrive. Places like Stanford and GaTech would probably be the largest schools I think he would do well at. I think he can be successful at the large publics but I don't think they'd fit his personality well. He, of course, could change in that first year of college and they may be a perfect fit but I wouldn't expect that.

 

[chito_and_leon]

Mizzou was something my wife and I pushed, mostly because of the ability to earn a nearly full scholarship because of his grades and test scores and he's not from Missouri. I don't think he is seriously considering it. Illinois will be because we are pushing it. Michigan is a recent add to his list and I think it is mostly because of his best friend who has a lot of large B1G and SEC schools on his list. His friend also has no idea what he wants to do later on nor what he wants to study in college. He is looking for a good swimming program that he might be able to walk on to the team.

My son really wants to be at MIT. I said before it might be a reputation thing but I know he wants to do EE and specialize in robotics. He would like to be a part of their competition robotics team(s) and he knows Boston has become the global epicenter for robotics and biotech. Which probably explains the interest in WPI and Tufts as well.

And I think a medium to smaller sized school is where he'll thrive. Places like Stanford and GaTech would probably be the largest schools I think he would do well at. I think he can be successful at the large publics but I don't think they'd fit his personality well. He, of course, could change in that first year of college and they may be a perfect fit but I wouldn't expect that.

MIT (and to a lesser extent Michigan) will chart a different life trajectory for him if that's what he wants. The rest are basically fungible from an education perspective, or maybe not fungible but their impact will come down to luck and how he tackles the situation. Urbana Champaign and Worcester are $hithole$, but I'm sure you know that. Missouri seems like the real head scratcher of the list. Tufts has the advantage of being the most expensive school in Massachusetts.

 

[TU_BLA]

Glad you and your child know about "demonstrated interest". See my post above about institutional priorities. MIT and CalTech do track interest, though may not admit it and not the way other schools do.

It sounds like your child is at risk of LMO at CalTech and MIT. There aren't many ways around that at those schools. Besides institutional priorities. Find out what those are and be ready with an answer as to why he fits. Geography is in you favor. There's more than one kid who got into Harvard applying from his grandfather's ranch zip code out east of Wagoner or Cherokee County, that's for sure. Find others. Maybe there's an obscure part of the physics program that he's interested in that other kids never ask about and push that. With what little time you have, you need to Bud Fox the school, find out the information you need about what their needs and wants are, then leverage them. A few might need a serviceable walk-on goalkeeper. WashU is probably in that category.

For schools like that, its an uphill battle and kids should never be discouraged. There was that Georgia Tech study years ago complaining that pure math merit based admissions placements would result in every seat in every major at all the Ivys plus every engineering seat at all of the Top 50 engineering programs going to Chinese based applicants, before they ever even considered American applications. So complaints from parents about how their kid deserves a full ride merit because she was a cheerleader and in National Honor Society falls on deaf ears with the people who do this stuff for a living.

He should probably be looking at one or two small mid-western engineering schools like Grinnell or Co Mines if going for free or near free is the goal. The institutional priority/demonstrated interest thing is probably a little late in the game for him, but it doesn't cost very much to try.

And it pains me to say this, but think about UCF or maybe Florida Poly. Believe it or not, some but not all of their engineering is elite, gobs of kids get free rides, out of state tuition in Florida is peanuts and he can go in-state after a year generally if you plan ahead. They might need a walk-on keeper too. Florida Poly just announced a brand new $50 million building iirc. Its in Lakeland which is a hell hole though. Both schools are over leveraged with Florida and foreign students and stated institutional priorities include attracting talent to Florida and retaining it. But again, that's only if we are talking about finding a Top 50 program that wont charge him and then only in particular majors like aerospace.

I've been to Lakeland.

The student is talented, but chose TU because the parents knew that the school was hoping to bolster a particular program, so they sought after TU, rather than Texas or the Ivys.

We did learn about this as well. Apparently his CCC at Union hooked him up with a web site that helps students understand their chances of getting into a particular school based solely on GPA and test scores (including AP). His chance of getting into MIT is about 60%. CalTech- 35%. When he ran Tufts, his overall chance of getting in was 65% but when he added in EE as a major, it went up to 70%. A couple of the Ivys were like that too. Apparently kids don't go to the Ivys for engineering. I also found out that Princeton and Brown do not have business schools. The number of kids who were disappointed to hear that last night was pretty high.

Tonight we go to OKC to meet with 2 college reps. He's going to talk to Duke and Stanford. The Duke "MyInTuition" number is high. The Stanford number is actually pretty low and do-able. Stanford is a "No-Loan" school meaning none of their financial aid is packaged as a loan. If the student wants to take out a loan to cover the remaining costs, they are free to do so on their own. From being in Higher Ed for 25 years, I know Stanford has been doing some creative funding and their best at providing financial aid based on reality not what a computer algorithm spits out. And as you said, if you're going into a major that they want to push and they want you, they'll make it happen.

 

[HuffyCane]

If he wants to do robotics, he needs to visit Rice and ask to tour their robot workshop. Maybe the best practical program in the country. And the guy that runs it is from northeastern Oklahoma iirc. You can ask to meet with faculty at Rice, they dont always grant that, if so, ask to meet with him.

 

[TU_BLA]

MIT (and to a lesser extent Michigan) will chart a different life trajectory for him if that's what he wants. The rest are basically fungible from an education perspective, or maybe not fungible but their impact will come down to luck and how he tackles the situation. Urbana Champaign and Worcester are $hithole$, but I'm sure you know that. Missouri seems like the real head scratcher of the list. Tufts has the advantage of being the most expensive school in Massachusetts.

On Worcester, yes, it is an old school industrial/textile city, like many of the bigger but not Boston cities in MA (think New Bedford where I grew up, Fall River, Brockton, and Springfield as well). WPI was a school that came about to support the growth of those industries by providing students that could hopefully help modernize factories and what not. The campus is really nice and they gave the best, most informative tour of any of the schools we've visited. They did a great job. And now with the MBTA train that comes close to campus, you can be in Boston in 90 minutes.

Tufts has always been expensive. I had several friends from HS who went there...and one who went there but was initially waitlisted to the dismay and ire of her alum father. I'm actually surprised they took her after the story she told about her dad ripping the VP for Admissions a new one. There are a ton of expensive schools in Boston. Tufts might be the most expensive as you mention, but it's probably like $200 more expensive.

 

[TU_BLA]

If he wants to do robotics, he needs to visit Rice and ask to tour their robot workshop. Maybe the best practical program in the country. And the guy that runs it is from northeastern Oklahoma iirc. You can ask to meet with faculty at Rice, they dont always grant that, if so, ask to meet with him.

Thanks. I'll suggest it. We've tried to get him to look at Rice and Tulane but the current state of politics in Texas and Louisiana are real turn offs for him. He's a reader and the whole book banning cult pisses him off.

 

[drboobay]

@TU_BLA here are a few observations from our own experience last year that may or may not be helpful to you.

1. OU provided the best financial deal at the end of the day, but KU was VERY close. Close enough that price would not have made a difference. And KU actually had an option that would have cost less than OU, if she had lived in a dorm where the kids take care of the building themselves (to save on cooking, cleaning, etc.).

2. TU provided the best deal financially among the private schools where she applied and got accepted. St. Louis was probably next in affordability, but would have incurred an extra $30,000 or so in debt over 4 years. Loyola of Chicago and DePaul were much more expensive and would have incurred very high debt for her to attend.

3. I wish I had a special key to the private scholarship thing, but the one she ended up getting was related to a cultural organization of which we had been members for decades. And the award was much higher than we had expected. She did a bang up job on the application and even made a video that went above and beyond. It was the largest scholarship a Tulsa member had ever received. So I guess if the scouting scholarship depends on the application, make sure he puts some energy into the application to sell himself.

My daughter is an excellent student but probably not an MIT type - she only applied to one "elite" institution which was U of Chicago. So take it all with a grain of salt. Everyone's different and might have a different experience.

 

[chito_and_leon]

I've been to Lakeland.


When he ran Tufts, his overall chance of getting in was 65% but when he added in EE as a major, it went up to 70%.

It's like buying sushi at McDonalds - "what's the one thing you sell that nobody else wants?" I've usually seen this done the other way, apply into an easy to get into program and hope to transfer into a harder to get into program.

 

[chito_and_leon]

I've been to Lakeland.


We did learn about this as well. Apparently his CCC at Union hooked him up with a web site that helps students understand their chances of getting into a particular school based solely on GPA and test scores (including AP). His chance of getting into MIT is about 60%. CalTech- 35%. When he ran Tufts, his overall chance of getting in was 65% but when he added in EE as a major, it went up to 70%. A couple of the Ivys were like that too. Apparently kids don't go to the Ivys for engineering. I also found out that Princeton and Brown do not have business schools. The number of kids who were disappointed to hear that last night was pretty high.

Tonight we go to OKC to meet with 2 college reps. He's going to talk to Duke and Stanford. The Duke "MyInTuition" number is high. The Stanford number is actually pretty low and do-able. Stanford is a "No-Loan" school meaning none of their financial aid is packaged as a loan. If the student wants to take out a loan to cover the remaining costs, they are free to do so on their own. From being in Higher Ed for 25 years, I know Stanford has been doing some creative funding and their best at providing financial aid based on reality not what a computer algorithm spits out. And as you said, if you're going into a major that they want to push and they want you, they'll make it happen.

Stanford is an entire lifestyle. Is he a standard deviation above any other kid you know in terms of ambition and self-expectations? The people I knew at Harvard were nothing compared to Stanford undergrads. Do they even let you into engineering at stanford if you don't want to be a VC, startup founder or professor? Maybe they'd settle for an I banker.

Everyone I've ever met from Duke is an a$$hole. But I only have a moderate sample size.

 

[TU_BLA]

@TU_BLA here are a few observations from our own experience last year that may or may not be helpful to you.

1. OU provided the best financial deal at the end of the day, but KU was VERY close. Close enough that price would not have made a difference. And KU actually had an option that would have cost less than OU, if she had lived in a dorm where the kids take care of the building themselves (to save on cooking, cleaning, etc.).

2. TU provided the best deal financially among the private schools where she applied and got accepted. St. Louis was probably next in affordability, but would have incurred an extra $30,000 or so in debt over 4 years. Loyola of Chicago and DePaul were much more expensive and would have incurred very high debt for her to attend.

3. I wish I had a special key to the private scholarship thing, but the one she ended up getting was related to a cultural organization of which we had been members for decades. And the award was much higher than we had expected. She did a bang up job on the application and even made a video that went above and beyond. It was the largest scholarship a Tulsa member had ever received. So I guess if the scouting scholarship depends on the application, make sure he puts some energy into the application to sell himself.

My daughter is an excellent student but probably not an MIT type - she only applied to one "elite" institution which was U of Chicago. So take it all with a grain of salt. Everyone's different and might have a different experience.

Thanks. He missed out on some probably some hefty merit scholarships by 1 pt on his PSAT. He missed being a National Merit semifinalist by 1 point. He has been recognized as a National Merit Commended Scholar.

We are trying to get him to open himself up to researching many of the options out there. He is obsessed with the academic rank of the school and program right now and we are trying to get him to look at those in conjunction with other factors. What does he want from his college experience? What are some amenities you are looking for on a college campus?

These admissions reps know what's what. They know kids are looking at the elite schools because they have elite reputations but they also know, as Huffy pointed out, retention is what the schools focus on. The elite reputation may be enough to get the kid there, it's not enough to keep them there. I chose BU out of high school because I thought I wanted that big city college experience. I knew after my first year, that wasn't enough and I wasn't getting enough out of my classes or support in those academic areas to keep me there beyond year 2. I transferred to TU because I knew I'd be in a smaller community, professors taught classes and labs and not just TAs (who may or may not have had a grasp on the English language), and I would have access to the professors outside of the classroom. TU was the much better fit for me and is one of the decisions I regret not realizing coming straight out of HS.

 

[TU_BLA]

Stanford is an entire lifestyle. Is he a standard deviation above any other kid you know in terms of ambition and self-expectations? The people I knew at Harvard were nothing compared to Stanford undergrads. Do they even let you into engineering at stanford if you don't want to be a VC, startup founder or professor? Maybe they'd settle for an I banker.

We'll find out tonight.

One of the schools he is applying to (can't remember which) has a supplemental essay question that asks him to identify a problem in his community and come up with a possible solution for it using science/engineering. I think these essays are challenging him to think in a way he's never had to really think about before. And it's good for him. He's got a ridiculously crazy mind in the way he thinks about things...but he's never had to think about complex things before b/c of the nature of our education system being geared towards passing tests.

 

[HuffyCane]

Another wrinkle on the robotics thing: America dominates the rankings but post grad research and employment is increasingly global. If he wants to build robots for space, he needs to be at CalTech, Texas, or Rice and plot internship at Space X, etc. If he wants to build robots for the medical field, a tie breaker may be a relationship between his school and the University of Tokyo or Osaka versus a stand alone institution here in the USA. If he wants to do theoretical robotics, he needs to go to the best school possible here in America then work his way into Oxford. So when you talk to him about academic ranking, talk to him about whether that school is the best for what he wants to do within robotics in particular, be that research interests or employment goals. And those can be very different things. Once you've sorted through those together, start researching where is the best place to do those and what schools give you the best chance of realizing those goals. Its sounding more and more like he belongs at Stanford iyam.

I knew what I needed to do academically and trust me I did not do one single calorie of effort beyond that. I also figured out quick that what I really wanted to study and do was best offered at Oxford and not Tulsa. And Tulsa offered very limited opportunities to ramp that up and to the extent they did, those were offered to students who better fit the mold the TU faculty were looking for with much better GPAs. So I found a law school that would platform me into that opportunity, I was admitted on the basis of geographical diversity, and ran with it. The connections at Oxford got me started on what i really wanted to accomplish in life. It was an experience I'll never forget. In a career that has global applications like robotics, he should be looking beyond the states and beyond the next four years.

 

[HuffyCane]

He is obsessed with the academic rank of the school and program right now and we are trying to get him to look at those in conjunction with other factors.

He sounds like he may be quietly angry. I would probe that. It could indicate things that may eat at him and hold him back later in life if not bolstered now.

And the anger could be many different things. A lot of angry young men in this country right now. So he could be angry at himself for falling just short and maybe he could have done better. Angry at a system that ranks him based on a single test and single day's performance. But most of all a bit angry at schools that use those thresholds as a cut off.

That judge him as wanting. Maybe for the first time in his life.

I was the only member of my peer group that didn't go Ivy or service academy. So getting into a school that ranks high or higher than his high school friends might be important now, but it will matter little in the long run.

I will also say Im a little surprised that you say he is competitive at the schools you say he is looking at if he was not a national merit semifinalist. That's not the end of the world. My brother was a semi finalist and world respected researcher in the engineering field who has lectured in more than 100 countries. He did post grad at an elite institution to make up for his test scores and mid tier undergrad.

But I will also say that it probably isn't realistic for a high school senior who is interested in engineering and robotics who is only national merit commended to be interested in schools that are in the Top 20. Michigan may be the best he can do, and frankly, admission there may be based on factors other than merit, such as geography.

MIT is probably off the table. Stanford would be a stretch. Michigan would be a goal. He needs to focus on where he can get in at this point at a price you can pay and OU/TU. Im not sure he can get admitted to UCF as a freshman out of state commended.

As for TU, he needs to contact admissions and see if he can meet with Dr Hale as soon as possible. He probably needs direct feedback on what TU can do for him to reach his goals and honest advice about where else he could achieve those. John will give it to him without downplaying TU at all. If nothing else, he can play with John's robotic dog for an hour.

Where ever he goes, he probably needs to be a the biggest fish in that pond. The trick will be balancing the size of the goals with the size of the pond. TU helps a lot of people stand out and go on to great graduate schools and awesome things. It also closes a lot of doors for people that otherwise would have had Harvard post grad in their future if they paid to go to Northwestern. Depends on the person, the family, the major, the economy. Lots of things.

And his one point short performance could end up working in his favor. Thats the type of performance that TU will give you the same financial package as the semi-finalists, but you dont have to go through the hassles of that program like extra classes and early meetings.

 

[chito_and_leon]

He sounds like he may be quietly angry. I would probe that. It could indicate things that may eat at him and hold him back later in life if not bolstered now.

And the anger could be many different things. A lot of angry young men in this country right now. So he could be angry at himself for falling just short and maybe he could have done better. Angry at a system that ranks him based on a single test and single day's performance. But most of all a bit angry at schools that use those thresholds as a cut off.

That judge him as wanting. Maybe for the first time in his life.

I was the only member of my peer group that didn't go Ivy or service academy. So getting into a school that ranks high or higher than his high school friends might be important now, but it will matter little in the long run.

I will also say Im a little surprised that you say he is competitive at the schools you say he is looking at if he was not a national merit semifinalist. That's not the end of the world. My brother was a semi finalist and world respected researcher in the engineering field who has lectured in more than 100 countries. He did post grad at an elite institution to make up for his test scores and mid tier undergrad.

But I will also say that it probably isn't realistic for a high school senior who is interested in engineering and robotics who is only national merit commended to be interested in schools that are in the Top 20. Michigan may be the best he can do, and frankly, admission there may be based on factors other than merit, such as geography.

MIT is probably off the table. Stanford would be a stretch. Michigan would be a goal. He needs to focus on where he can get in at this point at a price you can pay and OU/TU. Im not sure he can get admitted to UCF as a freshman out of state commended.

As for TU, he needs to contact admissions and see if he can meet with Dr Hale as soon as possible. He probably needs direct feedback on what TU can do for him to reach his goals and honest advice about where else he could achieve those. John will give it to him without downplaying TU at all. If nothing else, he can play with John's robotic dog for an hour.

Where ever he goes, he probably needs to be a the biggest fish in that pond. The trick will be balancing the size of the goals with the size of the pond. TU helps a lot of people stand out and go on to great graduate schools and awesome things. It also closes a lot of doors for people that otherwise would have had Harvard post grad in their future if they paid to go to Northwestern. Depends on the person, the family, the major, the economy. Lots of things.

And his one point short performance could end up working in his favor. Thats the type of performance that TU will give you the same financial package as the semi-finalists, but you dont have to go through the hassles of that program like extra classes and early meetings.

You should leave the psychotherapy to the professionals.

 

[chito_and_leon]

I don't want to belabor the point but we are 2015 Honda people and not Lexus people. And for a variety of reasons we make less now than 5 years ago. But we don't claim poverty and financial stress comes from choices like private school high school tuition. Without that, my daughter would not be accumulating debt. But we must be equitable - all three will get private high school and accumulate college debt.

That's life. It doesn't always feel fair. It just feels a little overblown to assume that an algorithm understands these dynamics at an individual level. Those algorithms don't really care about individuals nor should they really. They serve the organization's objectives and are optimized that way.

My experience, which I didn't learn til I was old, is that happiness and accumulation of brass rings are not the same. It sounds like your daughter might be ahead of the curve in learning that, which is a great thing. That's an invaluable gift you've given her.

I think a lot of "what's wrong with kids these days" is they realize this dirty little secret a lot earlier in life instead of later like us, after the capitalist machine has already squeezed most of the useful blood out of the turnip.

That said, being on the cutting edge of changes in culture and business is a F&^&ing trip!

 

[TU_BLA]

He sounds like he may be quietly angry. I would probe that. It could indicate things that may eat at him and hold him back later in life if not bolstered now.

And the anger could be many different things. A lot of angry young men in this country right now. So he could be angry at himself for falling just short and maybe he could have done better. Angry at a system that ranks him based on a single test and single day's performance. But most of all a bit angry at schools that use those thresholds as a cut off.

That judge him as wanting. Maybe for the first time in his life.

I was the only member of my peer group that didn't go Ivy or service academy. So getting into a school that ranks high or higher than his high school friends might be important now, but it will matter little in the long run.

I will also say Im a little surprised that you say he is competitive at the schools you say he is looking at if he was not a national merit semifinalist. That's not the end of the world. My brother was a semi finalist and world respected researcher in the engineering field who has lectured in more than 100 countries. He did post grad at an elite institution to make up for his test scores and mid tier undergrad.

But I will also say that it probably isn't realistic for a high school senior who is interested in engineering and robotics who is only national merit commended to be interested in schools that are in the Top 20. Michigan may be the best he can do, and frankly, admission there may be based on factors other than merit, such as geography.

MIT is probably off the table. Stanford would be a stretch. Michigan would be a goal. He needs to focus on where he can get in at this point at a price you can pay and OU/TU. Im not sure he can get admitted to UCF as a freshman out of state commended.

As for TU, he needs to contact admissions and see if he can meet with Dr Hale as soon as possible. He probably needs direct feedback on what TU can do for him to reach his goals and honest advice about where else he could achieve those. John will give it to him without downplaying TU at all. If nothing else, he can play with John's robotic dog for an hour.

Where ever he goes, he probably needs to be a the biggest fish in that pond. The trick will be balancing the size of the goals with the size of the pond. TU helps a lot of people stand out and go on to great graduate schools and awesome things. It also closes a lot of doors for people that otherwise would have had Harvard post grad in their future if they paid to go to Northwestern. Depends on the person, the family, the major, the economy. Lots of things.

And his one point short performance could end up working in his favor. Thats the type of performance that TU will give you the same financial package as the semi-finalists, but you dont have to go through the hassles of that program like extra classes and early meetings.

Yeah, a test as a sophomore shouldn't decide your fate. His ACT score is a 35 and he's scored 5's on AP Calculus and Physics which, MIT will tell you, they value over many things. He's hoping his leadership, community service and Eagle Scout achievement help him stand out to a lot.

 

[HuffyCane]

Times are changing, but I’ve never heard of anyone in the last ten years with a 35 who paid a dime at TU. FYSA.

MIT and similar non Ivy will value demonstrated proof that the student took advantage of opportunities given them, regardless of what that was. That’s generally the point of the essay questions regardless of what question is actually asked. Yes, I was commended, but I sought additional academic challenged by doing debate etc and excelled beyond my finalist peers, etc.

So like your essay question on using engineering to help the community above. You twist the answer into how it’s an opportunity to test what you’ve learned and leverage that into community benefit, rather than a specific device or life experience etc., do research you can patent and scale, etc.

It’s a game. You can’t con your way in, but they are definitely looking for those who can dance to the music.

 

[TU_BLA]

Times are changing, but I’ve never heard of anyone in the last ten years with a 35 who paid a dime at TU. FYSA.

MIT and similar non Ivy will value demonstrated proof that the student took advantage of opportunities given them, regardless of what that was. That’s generally the point of the essay questions regardless of what question is actually asked. Yes, I was commended, but I sought additional academic challenged by doing debate etc and excelled beyond my finalist peers, etc.

So like your essay question on using engineering to help the community above. You twist the answer into how it’s an opportunity to test what you’ve learned and leverage that into community benefit, rather than a specific device or life experience etc., do research you can patent and scale, etc.

It’s a game. You can’t con your way in, but they are definitely looking for those who can dance to the music.

And my son has been learning to dance...there are so many online resources to assist college applicants with so many different aspects of their applications. I know he is using a site that reads and provides feedback on the college essays. I think he has found it really helpful. Union also has invested a ton of resources into their College & Career Center as part of their mission is 100% college or employed post graduation.

 

[HuffyCane]

And my son has been learning to dance...there are so many online resources to assist college applicants with so many different aspects of their applications. I know he is using a site that reads and provides feedback on the college essays. I think he has found it really helpful. Union also has invested a ton of resources into their College & Career Center as part of their mission is 100% college or employed post graduation.

Those tools will help, but ultimately may just help you develop a cookie cutter response. Stand out. Prove to them they are making the right decision.

 

[chito_and_leon]

And my son has been learning to dance...there are so many online resources to assist college applicants with so many different aspects of their applications. I know he is using a site that reads and provides feedback on the college essays. I think he has found it really helpful. Union also has invested a ton of resources into their College & Career Center as part of their mission is 100% college or employed post graduation.

honestly it sounds like your son has the situation well under control. Might be time for you and your wife to take your well deserved bows and exit stage left to watch the rest of the show from the wings.

 

[TU_BLA]

honestly it sounds like your son has the situation well under control. Might be time for you and your wife to take your well deserved bows and exit stage left to watch the rest of the show from the wings.

Yeah, he's a lot further along in his searches and preparation than we realized. My wife asked him to provide a spreadsheet of the schools he wants to apply to because some new schools started creeping on the list that we hadn't heard before and 5 minutes later we had it. He had been working on it for some time. We were a little shocked because we usually have to prod him to do things like that...or maybe it's just having to drag him to his sister's swim meets or to mow the lawn I actually think the college search process has him really fired up and excited.

BTW, he met with Stanford, Duke, and in a way, Harvard last night. Really, meeting the Harvard rep was for me because I wanted to ask what consideration Harvard gave for admission and financial aid to a direct descendant of Mr. Thomas Dudley. Couple years back when we were all shut in from COVID, my sister decided to take the plunge into tracing our lineage back on my mom's side. She hit a snag with my great-great grandmother who we always knew as Mary Houlihan (nee O'Malley) cementing us as very Irish on my mom's side. After digging, she found out her maiden name was actually Dudley and a direct descendant of Thomas Dudley.

I think he really liked what he heard about Stanford. Huffy, he and the rep actually talked about study abroad opportunities for engineering and one is in Kyoto, Japan. His eyes lit up at that.

 

[HuffyCane]

That's great! But be aware, Kyoto is a spiritual and cultural center. Most of the world's cutting edge industrial robotics are developed in Osaka and Tokyo.

 

[TulsaRulzOSUdrools]

One of the wildest parties of my undergrad was with some summer researchers at CalTech. They know how to have fun at times. Went swimming in the gene pool there.