Meanwhile China returns to its roots and prepares for war..
- Thread starter noble cane
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China just rubbing our noses in it at this point
It’s both. By all accounts I have heard, they are paranoid and convinced that war with the west will happen, eventually. So they are making sure they are ready, which can be a self-fulfilling prophecy of wanting to be militarily dominant themselves. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if they take a page from the Bush ‘preemptive strike‘ playbook against any western nation if an opportunity arose that gave them a critical advantage. Thus, the cat and mouse game with them and the pseudo soft Cold War standoff we have with them.
The good news is that they aren’t ready for a global war. And neither are we for that matter. But they will continue to build up and exert dominance in any way that they can until they are dominant and sure we are no threat to them, even if it takes a hundred years or more.
Admitttedly the build up of the Chinese military and their extending their claims of sovereignty outward from their borders is worrisome. But Japan, the US and the west bear some responsibility on China's concerns. The US has repeatedly engaged in military actions either directly in China or in a neighboring countries multiple times.. Japan invaded China in the early 30's and still doesn't teach its students about the Rape of Nanking. Another example is the Hong Kong lease resulted from China's losing the Opium war that China fought to stop decades of high volume drug running by western countries that addicted a huge percentage of its population. IP theft? China had a worldwide monopoly on silk production until the Brits stole silk worms and started production in India. As for going to war? The US has been in a constant state of warfare far from it's own shores since WW2, much it in Asia or countries thousands of miles away. As a result the US has over 150 bases overseas, while China has a handful.
Now that China has or soon will have the world's largest economy and given its repeated dominance by foreign countries, it would be insane for them to not have a military sufficient to protect itself. So far China has focused on extending it's control into border areas that it historically controlled. Taiwan is particularly sensitive as it is where US backed Chiang Ka Shek fled after losing to Mao, taking everyting he could steal with him.
What is also worrisome is that there are multiple historical examples of a rising nation and a dominant nation going to war because of distrust. Examples go back to the Peloponnesian Wars between Sparta and Athens. Distrust and the talk of warfare as inevitable seems to be rampant these days, especially with Trump, despite the fact that both the US and China's economies are deeply intertwined and have benefitted each other. A self-fulfilling prophecy?
Both sides have gripes, but demonizing each other for domestic political gain is both pointless and dangerous.
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China senses weakness and lack of resolve in current US leadership. China will take advantage of such perceived weakness. We are going to see aggressive actions which challenge the US over the next several years by the Chinese government. They are who we thought they were. If my prediction is wrong I will gladly eat crow. I don’t believe I am.
Your love of China 🇨🇳 is a little bit extreme. U defend them at every turn. Just when I think you have used every bullet in your justification quiver, you pull out another arrow.
Unrelated, but I’ve always been under the impression that IP protections are historically futile over a long enough period of time. The west stole silk, they also stole Coffee Beans which were a closely guarded commodity of the Arabs. The Americans stole railroads and manufacturing technology from the brits and nuclear / rocket tech from the Germans and everyone is stealing digital tech from us and Japan.
I mean, Hans Bethe worked at Los Alamos, but need I remind you that so did countless others that weren’t German. And it had never been done before. At best, we borrowed a couple of their scientists to get the original job done, not copy something.
A better example if you want to talk stolen nuke technology would be how the Soviets managed to jumpstart their program so quickly. Ethel and Jules Rosenberg helped with that bit and were executed. As did Klaus Fuchs, who was a friend of Hans Bethe and worked directly with him, so you know he had loads of relevant information.
I’m not arguing that other countries did or didn’t do the same things. Just that trying to protect IP is fundamentally impossible
Sure. My only point was that Americans didn’t steal nuke technology, which you implied. We invented it.
Sorry to be a stickler on that point, but it’s a particular one that I couldn’t let slide living in Los Alamos. I don’t dispute that IP is difficult to keep under wraps in perpetuity.
If we want to understand a situation and not get caught up in the mindset the led to our invading Iraq and committing to nation building in Afghanistan which wasted 20 years and cost @ $10T taxpayer dollars and thousands of lives we need to think carefully about it. To understand a situation it also makes sense to try to see things from the other's point of view. The west and Japan had their way with China for almost two centuries. Had another countries done' that to the US, it would be influencing our decisions today.
Historically China has expanded via trade and economic ties without regard to how other countries ran themselves, so human rights and democracy were not their issues. The Uigher situation is terrible, but when China looks at the US they see a country whose record with native americans and slavery is far worse and still is an issue today. They don't want our advice.
China is building up its military, expanding economically, and pushing the envelope to regain areas they see as their's which conflicts with our views and commitments. They also see the current international structure as set up by the and favoring the US and the west As the current dominant nation, those are threats which we have often responded to militarily. So have a lot of other dominant countries throughout history. Hopefully we can analyze and deal with China with clear eyes and a tool box that has more just military tools. That relationship will greatly influence how the next decades work out.
BTW I only brought up IP theft because it has long been a gripe against China. Maybe I should have mentioned pasta, gun powder, etc?
Historically China has expanded via trade and economic ties without regard to how other countries ran themselves, so human rights and democracy were not their issues. The Uigher situation is terrible, but when China looks at the US they see a country whose record with native americans and slavery is far worse and still is an issue today. They don't want our advice.
China is building up its military, expanding economically, and pushing the envelope to regain areas they see as their's which conflicts with our views and commitments. They also see the current international structure as set up by the and favoring the US and the west As the current dominant nation, those are threats which we have often responded to militarily. So have a lot of other dominant countries throughout history. Hopefully we can analyze and deal with China with clear eyes and a tool box that has more just military tools. That relationship will greatly influence how the next decades work out.
BTW I only brought up IP theft because it has long been a gripe against China. Maybe I should have mentioned pasta, gun powder, etc?
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Let me give WATU logic a try. The US has done x, y and z in our past so not only can’t we judge China on their actions but we are in no position to even give advice. So…the US has not only interfered with the democratic process in multiple nations multiple times but have even placed puppet Presidents (leaders) in multiple countries to do our bidding. Yet WATU is outraged when Russia attempts to influence our democratic process by using social media. If I’m misstating something please correct the same.
The point is to understand so we can deal with China effectively. Judge all you want but one's judgement will likely be better if made with a full understanding of how we got here and how (and why) our views differ from China's.
Yes, I don't trust Putin's Russia which has and continues to interfere in our elections, repeatedly hack our companies and undermine critical infrastructure For the same reasons several centuries of negative experiences likely undermine China's trust for the West (and Japan) and the international system it created.
Yes, I don't trust Putin's Russia which has and continues to interfere in our elections, repeatedly hack our companies and undermine critical infrastructure For the same reasons several centuries of negative experiences likely undermine China's trust for the West (and Japan) and the international system it created.
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So glad you cleared it up..
I was totally wrong in the assumption that it was because we had 2 totally incompatible systems of government and economics...
Maybe after the left kills 70 or so million citizens over here in a cultural rebirth, we can see eye to eye with China and Russia..
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