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Happy End of Democracy Day

When the federal government is using private social media websites to censor and silence speech we have a problem as that private website is now a tool of the federal government being used to violate the civil liberties of its people. If the Trump Admin begins to censor speech on Twitter I will scream just as loud
Start screaming because the owner of Twitter is in the Trump admin and he suppresses speech on his platform.

Again, asking a platform to not blatant publish misinformation that risks public health during a pandemic where tens of thousands are dying is not the same as someone tearing up your ballot in front of your eyes, with no legal evidence or justification.
 
Start screaming because the owner of Twitter is in the Trump admin and he suppresses speech on his platform.

Again, asking a platform to not blatant publish misinformation that risks public health during a pandemic where tens of thousands are dying is not the same as someone tearing up your ballot in front of your eyes, with no legal evidence or justification.
The Biden Admin censored and silenced speech regarding the origins of COVID. Even speech from doctors and scientist. They continued to censor and silence speech regarding Hunter’s laptop story. Of course you know this. Zuckerberg gave an in-depth interview yesterday detailing the pressure the Admin placed on the social media outlets to violate the first amendment rights of Americans. There are also volumes of emails between the Biden Admin and twitter detailing the extent of the censorship. Again….you know all this. The fact Libs are perfectly fine with the suppressing of speech is one of the more remarkable change of political positions I’ve ever witnessed. No one ever argued extremist were logical and reasonable people.
 
The Biden Admin censored and silenced speech regarding the origins of COVID. Even speech from doctors and scientist. They continued to censor and silence speech regarding Hunter’s laptop story. Of course you know this. Zuckerberg gave an in-depth interview yesterday detailing the pressure the Admin placed on the social media outlets to violate the first amendment rights of Americans. There are also volumes of emails between the Biden Admin and twitter detailing the extent of the censorship. Again….you know all this. The fact Libs are perfectly fine with the suppressing of speech is one of the more remarkable change of political positions I’ve ever witnessed. No one ever argued extremist were logical and reasonable people.
STFU with this nonsense. The party of "Freedom" has a complete dissociation with freedom.

You have the freedom to not get an abortion, not use a particular toilet, not look at pornography, have your vote stolen from you with no repercussion, not buy a bottle of whiskey or a car on sunday, have your kid shot in their school, not install a wind turbine offshore, and be forced to hear and see completely asinine psuedo-science and propaganda against your will.

That's a real utopia you're building there. Have fun in the 1950's.

P.S. Zuckerberg and any of the other oligarchs will suck up using whichever ideal he thinks will help them the most. They don't care, and they don't actually agree with you. You are just a pawn to them, and your delusional anger just plays into their ownership of you.
 
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STFU with this nonsense. The party of "Freedom" has a complete dissociation with freedom.

You have the freedom to not get an abortion, not use a particular toilet, not look at pornography, have your vote stolen from you with no repercussion, not buy a bottle of whiskey or a car on sunday, have your kid shot in their school, not install a wind turbine offshore, and be forced to hear and see completely asinine psuedo-science and propaganda against your will.

That's a real utopia you're building there. Have fun in the 1950's.

P.S. Zuckerberg and any of the other oligarchs will suck up using whichever ideal he thinks will help them the most. They don't care, and they don't actually agree with you. You are just a pawn to them, and your delusional anger just plays into their ownership of you.
Anyone who supports the government trampling on our fundamental constitutional rights and continues to blatantly lie about the facts of the came isn’t entitled to any opinion on the subject of freedom. You not only have no idea what that word means but continue to lie about the facts surrounding what our federal government did over the last 4 years in trampling on the 1st amendment. Extremist thinking
 
Agree. Unfortunately, I’m realizing we have a number of posters here who doesn’t think of long term consequences either. I know my rants on the dangers of preemptive blanket pardons are likely falling of death ears but I also know where we’re now headed. It’s a path of blatant corruption and criminal activity absent any fear of legal consequences. Good luck to us all
I'd like to think Trump can't sign an EO and withdraw us from NATO since it was a treaty and the sole approvers of treaties is Congress. Same with all the EOs he signed to undo the 14th Amendment and birthright citizenship. Simply stated, he can't. The only thing that can undo a Constitutional amendment is another Constitutional amendment (see 19th and 22nd amendments). Pretty sure 75% of the states aren't undoing the 14th amendment.

A lot of the EO signing is performative bull:crap:. It riles up his base.

And don't get me started on Nazi Elon...if you're OK with his Sieg Heil...you can block me now. I have no room in my life for Nazi sympathizers.
 
I'd like to think Trump can't sign an EO and withdraw us from NATO since it was a treaty and the sole approvers of treaties is Congress. Same with all the EOs he signed to undo the 14th Amendment and birthright citizenship. Simply stated, he can't. The only thing that can undo a Constitutional amendment is another Constitutional amendment (see 19th and 22nd amendments). Pretty sure 75% of the states aren't undoing the 14th amendment.

A lot of the EO signing is performative bull:crap:. It riles up his base.

And don't get me started on Nazi Elon...if you're OK with his Sieg Heil...you can block me now. I have no room in my life for Nazi sympathizers.
I was the first poster on this board warning against legislating through EOs. Many here ignored my warnings and supported the act because the supported the actor signing the orders. I saw a larger picture. A picture where activist and extremist Presidents would use the precedent to unilaterally enact laws thus bypassing the democratic process. Sadly I was correct. We would be good to remember precedents extend beyond whose establishing them. Too many extremist on this board who can’t look beyond today for future consequences. Doesn’t matter which party is legislating via EOs to me. It’s bad precedent, bad policy, and violates our lawmaking process.

Why would I block you? I consider you a friend (as I do Aston btw). We can have political disagreements and still be colleagues at the end of the day. There is no one on this board I would rather have a beer with than yourself. Now I don’t appreciate your inference that I’m a Nazi sympathizer but will assume it was said out of anger and/or frustration. The Nazis were the worst group of people in modern history in case anyone doubted my position there.
 
I was the first poster on this board warning against legislating through EOs. Many here ignored my warnings and supported the act because the supported the actor signing the orders. I saw a larger picture. A picture where activist and extremist Presidents would use the precedent to unilaterally enact laws thus bypassing the democratic process. Sadly I was correct. We would be good to remember precedents extend beyond whose establishing them. Too many extremist on this board who can’t look beyond today for future consequences. Doesn’t matter which party is legislating via EOs to me. It’s bad precedent, bad policy, and violates our lawmaking process.

Why would I block you? I consider you a friend (as I do Aston btw). We can have political disagreements and still be colleagues at the end of the day. There is no one on this board I would rather have a beer with than yourself. Now I don’t appreciate your inference that I’m a Nazi sympathizer but will assume it was said out of anger and/or frustration. The Nazis were the worst group of people in modern history in case anyone doubted my position there.
I agree with legislating through EOs part...there's a reason why the founding fathers carefully constructed the Constitution and the balance of powers and right now we are teetering very close to that edge of that balance being lost and our government being run at the whim of a tyrannical lunatic whose strings are being controlled by a panel of tech oligarchs.

As for the Nazi comment, I stand by it. If anyone here condones or brushes off what Musk did and still supports him and the administration while making it painfully obvious they desire a pureblood homogenous society run by the patriarchy using the same salutes and rhetoric as Hitler in the 30s, I'm out. This is who they are and they are not even hiding it now and one can only surmise that the supporters agree and harbor a similar mindset. It's like the so-called evangelical Christians who are attacking an Episcopal bishop for calling for mercy and compassion...her plea is nothing more than a paraphrasing of Christ calling for people to love the poor, the lost, the foreigner. She has literal Gospel scriptures to back her and yet that side is condemning her. One Republican congressman literally said she should be added to the deportation lists.

I simply can't with the hate and brushing the evil and cruelty off as man talk anymore.
 
I agree with legislating through EOs part...there's a reason why the founding fathers carefully constructed the Constitution and the balance of powers and right now we are teetering very close to that edge of that balance being lost and our government being run at the whim of a tyrannical lunatic whose strings are being controlled by a panel of tech oligarchs.

As for the Nazi comment, I stand by it. If anyone here condones or brushes off what Musk did and still supports him and the administration while making it painfully obvious they desire a pureblood homogenous society run by the patriarchy using the same salutes and rhetoric as Hitler in the 30s, I'm out. This is who they are and they are not even hiding it now and one can only surmise that the supporters agree and harbor a similar mindset. It's like the so-called evangelical Christians who are attacking an Episcopal bishop for calling for mercy and compassion...her plea is nothing more than a paraphrasing of Christ calling for people to love the poor, the lost, the foreigner. She has literal Gospel scriptures to back her and yet that side is condemning her. One Republican congressman literally said she should be added to the deportation lists.

I simply can't with the hate and brushing the evil and cruelty off as man talk anymore.
Yeah, the bishop stuff confused me. She didn't call on Trump to become a LGBT advocate. She asked for compassion and empathy for individuals and families that are feeling targeted.

You can think that being LGBT is a moral failing, a mental illness, or whatever other nonsense you want and still muster some empathy for individuals and families that are dealing with those issues. Even if you think those things, you ought to come from a place of wanting to help them, not isolate them from society. You can find it in your heart to realize that bathroom laws only serve to single out those individuals without helping them, and are impossible to enforce anyway.
 
Yeah, the bishop stuff confused me. She didn't call on Trump to become a LGBT advocate. She asked for compassion and empathy for individuals and families that are feeling targeted.

You can think that being LGBT is a moral failing, a mental illness, or whatever other nonsense you want and still muster some empathy for individuals and families that are dealing with those issues. Even if you think those things, you ought to come from a place of wanting to help them, not isolate them from society. You can find it in your heart to realize that bathroom laws only serve to single out those individuals without helping them, and are impossible to enforce anyway.
My wife made a good point on the trans bathroom issue and the fact that the GOP is trying to make this into a giant national security issue when in fact, an individual who identifies as female is likely to dress like a female, have their hair done like a female, and look as female as any other woman...no one is ever going to know they are not a female using the women's bathroom unless someone goes poking around...and it's also possible this person has already had gender reassignment surgery...meaning no one would know.

And to all the gatekeeping "Christians" on here. Jesus said "love your neighbor"...you can't hate who they are or their lifestyle and love them. I Corinithians 13 4 says " Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It ALWAYS protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." And while this passage is one of the most frequently used scriptures in marriage ceremonies, it's not about marriage at all. I Cornithians is a letter from Paul detailing how we are all supposed to love one another and treat one another in brotherly love...LOVE THY NEIGHBOR without condition.

And the whole response to that from a good majority of evangelicals is hate the sin, love the sinner. There is no way to separate them and frequently the only part they are capable of carrying out is hating the sin. The extremists in any religion are only able to focus on the wrongs they perceive they are being subjected to. This is true of extreme Christians (evangelicals), Muslims, Jews, etc.

There's a line in the movie An American President where Annette Benning is arguing with the President (Michael Douglas) and says " How can you keep quiet? How do you have patience for people who claim they love America, but clearly can't stand Americans?

I feel like where in this timeline right now.
 
Very few people have issues with someone dressed as a female using the female bathroom. The issue gets dicey when male pervs dressed as men are hanging out in girls bathrooms. This has happen to my teenage daughter multiple times including recently at a local target. I complained to the store and their response was company policy permits males to use the women’s bathrooms. It’s pretty intimidating for a 13 year old girl to walk alone into a bathroom to be greeting my two middle aged men hanging out by the stalls.
 
Very few people have issues with someone dressed as a female using the female bathroom. The issue gets dicey when male pervs dressed as men are hanging out in girls bathrooms. This has happen to my teenage daughter multiple times including recently at a local target. I complained to the store and their response was company policy permits males to use the women’s bathrooms. It’s pretty intimidating for a 13 year old girl to walk alone into a bathroom to be greeting my two middle aged men hanging out by the stalls.
Then those aren't trans individuals. Those are creepy pervs that Target should ask to vacate the bathroom (and premises) regardless of any law.

Edit: If they really were just hanging out in there, you could point out to the employees that they aren't "using" the bathroom, and their behavior is not covered by policy.
 
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Then those aren't trans individuals. Those are creepy pervs that Target should ask to vacate the bathroom (and premises) regardless of any law.
Exactly. These are opportunists taking advantage of a store policy. And, if that happens to my daughter and I am there, I am beating the living daylights out of the guy.
 
Then those aren't trans individuals. Those are creepy pervs that Target should ask to vacate the bathroom (and premises) regardless of any law.
No they aren’t. They are taking advantage of the lack of clarity in laws / policies. Unfortunately, many companies and organizations are all too happy to accommodate them. Same thing happened to her in the Seattle airport last year at soccer nationals. I went up to a security guard and was promptly told he couldn’t do anything due to policy. Go figure
 
No they aren’t. They are taking advantage of the lack of clarity in laws / policies. Unfortunately, many companies and organizations are all too happy to accommodate them. Same thing happened to her in the Seattle airport last year at soccer nationals. I went up to a security guard and was promptly told he couldn’t do anything due to policy. Go figure
There's got to be a happy medium in all of this. Honestly, no policy is probably the best as individuals who identify as female or male would never even be noticed because they go above and beyond to look the gender they identify as.
 
No they aren’t. They are taking advantage of the lack of clarity in laws / policies. Unfortunately, many companies and organizations are all too happy to accommodate them. Same thing happened to her in the Seattle airport last year at soccer nationals. I went up to a security guard and was promptly told he couldn’t do anything due to policy. Go figure

So, especially if the bathroom laws are supposed to be meant to give recourse for situations like yours and are not supposed to affect trans people, reminding lawmakers that trans people exist and should be considered with compassion when framing such laws should be a well received point, not a source of outrage.

The recent EO about gender at conception being what is on your passport is not going to make life easy for people who have had surgeries and absolutely look and appear female/male in all respects. Trans individuals are going to get held up at ports of entry and possibly accused of stealing someone's passport. It singles them out unfairly.

I'm no SJW on the trans front. The issues raised are thorny at best. I am not sure that there are any answers on the sports front that won't leave someone justifiably upset. But we shouldn't forget that whatever judgement you make of trans people, that they are human beings just trying to get through life like any of us. Regardless of which sports team you think they ought to play on or what bathroom they ought to use, they deserve dignity and respect as humans that just want to play soccer or use the bathroom or whatever.

And I do understand why you might want to deny them the right to play soccer on the 'wrong' team. And honestly, I can accept that given the issues involved. But we can still acknowledge that forcing a trans person to play on what they consider the "wrong" team is humiliating for them and deeply isolating, and not dismiss that as if it is something they deserve for deigning to be trans.

Approaching the problem with that level of respect for the individual while acknowledging the issues it raises would maybe allow for compromises that allow more preservation of dignity. Like, at least for high school sports, letting a trans person practice and even play some games with the team they identify with for credit, but maybe not allow competition in district/state games/tournaments/meets and not formally recognize any individual records. That would allow genuinely trans people to experience the camraderie of a team sport and contribute to a team's success without people getting outraged because "They won state because they used a trans person!" It also plausibly gives that trans person some anonymity as a trans person. While sitting out important games will hurt, they at least aren't being outed and humiliated because they are forced to be on the assigned birth gender team. Noone outside the school/state sports authorities needs to know.

There would of course be issues, and some sports would be harder to implement than others. I am sure someone will raise a reason or two that it could never ever work like that.

But people and politicians aren't interested in even trying to find solutions anymore. They are interested in being right and getting everything they want or nothing, and having niche cultural issues to use as a political cudgel. See: almost any issue the last twenty years.
 
Sports are a complex issue. My basic thought is as long as the biological male hasn’t had the benefits of higher testosterone they should be allowed to play. Males are genetically stronger and faster than females. Male soccer players move differently than their female counterparts in part due to their hips structure. A trans boy/girl who has gone through puberty has significant advantages over his female counterparts. There’s also a safety factor for those girls to consider. I would favor some medical regulations to be put in place on the subject so not to penalize the trans players but protect the female athletes.
 
Sports are a complex issue. My basic thought is as long as the biological male hasn’t had the benefits of higher testosterone they should be allowed to play. Males are genetically stronger and faster than females. Male soccer players move differently than their female counterparts in part due to their hips structure. A trans boy/girl who has gone through puberty has significant advantages over his female counterparts. There’s also a safety factor for those girls to consider. I would favor some medical regulations to be put in place on the subject so not to penalize the trans players but protect the female athletes.
I agree a lot depends on when/how they started to transition as to whether there is an innate advantage or not. But that is a really complex issue, and if we are talking about someone at age 16 deciding to transition, then some of that advantage is already baked in as you describe. I don't think it is transphobic to acknowledge that and try to deal with or mitigate it somehow. I do think in that case that it is transphobic to completely deny the opportunity of sports without forcing the student to humiliate themselves.

I think we agree on this one. Wish more people did.
 
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I was the first poster on this board warning against legislating through EOs. Many here ignored my warnings and supported the act because the supported the actor signing the orders. I saw a larger picture. A picture where activist and extremist Presidents would use the precedent to unilaterally enact laws thus bypassing the democratic process. Sadly I was correct. We would be good to remember precedents extend beyond whose establishing them. Too many extremist on this board who can’t look beyond today for future consequences. Doesn’t matter which party is legislating via EOs to me. It’s bad precedent, bad policy, and violates our lawmaking process.

Why would I block you? I consider you a friend (as I do Aston btw). We can have political disagreements and still be colleagues at the end of the day. There is no one on this board I would rather have a beer with than yourself. Now I don’t appreciate your inference that I’m a Nazi sympathizer but will assume it was said out of anger and/or frustration. The Nazis were the worst group of people in modern history in case anyone doubted my position there.
You were hardly the first person to complain about misuse of executive orders. Heck my HS AP US give teacher was complaining about that during the Bush admin. I know that people have complained about that from prior to him as well.

Moreover, EO’s aren’t the only problem… it’s the nearly complete shift of governing power from Congress and the Supreme Court to the executive. It’s not only making laws, but also making war, and reducing accountability via ever expanding executive privilege for both the executive and his staff, as well as expanding immunity.

I would love to rein in the powers of the executive in return for something like the line item veto.
 
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I don't know this for certain, but it is my supposition that no matter how many hormones you take to become a female or how many you take to become a male, there are some inherent advantages that exist for the one who was born a man, and disadvantages for those born a woman in competing in a sport opposite of your dna. You just cannot turn your dna inside out, & eliminate the physical adavantages and disadvantages to being a man or woman. The laws of science just don't allow that with present technology. The only way to test that 100% accurately would be to test the same individual in a parallel universe one of which they took the hormones, and one of which they didn't. I'm sure the hormones mute the advantage/disadvantage but I don't think they eliminate it altogether. I would support something along the nature of Clong's thoughts on the issue. (not competing for tournaments/records etc.) But I fear it wouldn't satisfy the needs of the trans person very well, be next to impossible to implement feasibly, as well as suffer friction over its implementation to boot.

On both these issues, (bathroom/sports) the chance of having multiples on multiples of lawsuits filed is inevitable, no matter which way you go.
 
Sports are a complex issue. My basic thought is as long as the biological male hasn’t had the benefits of higher testosterone they should be allowed to play. Males are genetically stronger and faster than females. Male soccer players move differently than their female counterparts in part due to their hips structure. A trans boy/girl who has gone through puberty has significant advantages over his female counterparts. There’s also a safety factor for those girls to consider. I would favor some medical regulations to be put in place on the subject so not to penalize the trans players but protect the female athletes.
I agree...to an extent. Again the blanket policies are the ones hurting everything and making it seem like a way bigger problem than it is. I'm sure the NCAA and NFHS might have some statistics on the number of trans athletes that are participating (Of course an anonymous response as we've seen people are not able to handle things seeming just a bit different). Handle it on a case by case basis, make the nuanced rules clear. For instance, I am not sure I agree with allowing the trans-female swimmer compete in the NCAA because their transition was way late into their teen years as I understand it. The San Jose St. volleyball player created an uproar in the MWC this year and at no time did that person ever come forward publicly as trans. Of course the school cannot come forward and confirm or deny that the individual is trans (FERPA and I would consider this to fall under a student health record) so the rumor is allowed to persist and pick up steam and since there was no public denial and it was all over the interwebs, then of course the accusations are 100% factual and unbiased.

Then there was the boxer in the Olympics who was accused of being a male competing as a female. Accused because she punched harder and lacked your typical female characteristics. So now we've hit an age that if someone loses to someone physically bigger and stronger you're going to accuse them of being a male? Never mind the fact that this boxer lost more matches than she won prior to the Olympics. You know some athletes just get hot at the right time and shock some people (see Boris Becker when he won Wimbledon as a 17 year old qualifier, Goran Ivanesevic as a Wimbledon wild card, hell the US Olympic hockey team in 1980 should have never gotten out of pool play based on the roster vs other Olympic rosters that year, and there are countless other instances where this has happened in sports).
 
You were hardly the first person to complain about misuse of executive orders. Heck my HS AP US give teacher was complaining about that during the Bush admin. I know that people have complained about that from prior to him as well.

Moreover, EO’s aren’t the only problem… it’s the nearly complete shift of governing power from Congress and the Supreme Court to the executive. It’s not only making laws, but also making war, and reducing accountability via ever expanding executive privilege for both the executive and his staff, as well as expanding immunity.

I would love to rein in the powers of the executive in return for something like the line item veto.
We'll see what happens in the next 2 months. It appears the Senate is ready to pass on some of Trump's cabinet nominees. I know that Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins have both said they will not vote to approve Hegseth. It wouldn't surprise me if Trump appointed him anyway and called it a matter of grave national security. Trump, at Putin's direction, will likely try to get the US out of NATO and I don't think this is something Congress would approve and by law, only Congress can approve or dissolve treaties, and SCOTUS recently has agreed with this as we are aware around here as they said Congress never dissolved the treaties creating the indigenous reservations with a lot of the recognized tribes. I believe Gorsuch wrote the majority opinion and is the SCOTUS expert concerning tribal law.

And his EO for birthright citizenship is unconstitutional and even all of us "law experts" on here know this is the case, otherwise the 18th amendment (Prohibition) could have been undone by an EO or even by Congress passing a simple law, but the only way an amendment to the Constitution can be undone is by another amendment...hence why the idiot from TN trying to pass a bill making it OK for Trump to have a 3rd term because his 2 terms were non-consecutive should also fail in the courts if it ever gets there and Trump would be long dead in the ground/hell before an amendment of that nature ever gets added to the constitution. The only way he gets to stay longer is if he is on the next ballot as VP, the POTUS steps down, and even at that, he can only serve 2 years as POTUS although by the way the 22nd is worded, he would not even be eligible for the ballot as VP since he would have been elected as POTUS for 2 terms. This amendment was ratified by 41 states out of 48 (Hawaii and Alaska were not yet states). 5 states took no action on the amendment and only 2 flat out rejected it. MA most people probably would have guessed it....but the other??? Any takers? It was OK. Why...well OK benefitted greatly from a lot of FDRs New Deal and leaned heavily Democratic up until the mid to late 80s
 
I agree...to an extent. Again the blanket policies are the ones hurting everything and making it seem like a way bigger problem than it is. I'm sure the NCAA and NFHS might have some statistics on the number of trans athletes that are participating (Of course an anonymous response as we've seen people are not able to handle things seeming just a bit different). Handle it on a case by case basis, make the nuanced rules clear. For instance, I am not sure I agree with allowing the trans-female swimmer compete in the NCAA because their transition was way late into their teen years as I understand it. The San Jose St. volleyball player created an uproar in the MWC this year and at no time did that person ever come forward publicly as trans. Of course the school cannot come forward and confirm or deny that the individual is trans (FERPA and I would consider this to fall under a student health record) so the rumor is allowed to persist and pick up steam and since there was no public denial and it was all over the interwebs, then of course the accusations are 100% factual and unbiased.

Then there was the boxer in the Olympics who was accused of being a male competing as a female. Accused because she punched harder and lacked your typical female characteristics. So now we've hit an age that if someone loses to someone physically bigger and stronger you're going to accuse them of being a male? Never mind the fact that this boxer lost more matches than she won prior to the Olympics. You know some athletes just get hot at the right time and shock some people (see Boris Becker when he won Wimbledon as a 17 year old qualifier, Goran Ivanesevic as a Wimbledon wild card, hell the US Olympic hockey team in 1980 should have never gotten out of pool play based on the roster vs other Olympic rosters that year, and there are countless other instances where this has happened in sports).
Seeing your daughter’s involvement in swimming, I’m surprised your example wasn’t the most publicized example of a male born trans athlete competing against females….Lia Thomas.
 
Seeing your daughter’s involvement in swimming, I’m surprised your example wasn’t the most publicized example of a male born trans athlete competing against females….Lia Thomas.
That's the one I am speaking of but I don't know enough about Lia's personal life before coming out as trans or when/if they did any hormone therapy, etc. I do know that she won an event and people were up in arms about it yet never mentioned the dozens of races she lost to other swimmers. And usually it only takes is one time where a trans athlete wins something and people go crazy and start gatekeeping like they're some sort of knight in shining armor coming to the rescue and they conveniently leave off the hundred of instances where the trans athlete did not win whatever the sport. Bizarre thing is at my daughter's age the girls actually have higher speed standards for qualifying times than the boys do. Not until they hit HS do the standards for boys become tougher than the girls.

And it's sort of hypocritical for all these Republican gatekeepers to start carrying out the EO and yet someone like Caitlyn Jenner is one of their most staunch supporters yet, according to the EO, their passport is now required to indicate MALE. Does this mean they need to transition back to a male because their gender appearance is not going to match the gender on their passport/DL meaning they shouldn't be able to board a plane or vote or a hundred different things. Or will Trump make an exception for Caitlyn because they support him (which is likely...Trump is all about Trump and his ego). BTW, a number of geneticists, physicians, and other individuals who study human development all noted that because the EO specifically indicates a person's gender is what they are at conception, then every last person in the US is now going to be listed as FEMALE because at conception, every embryo that develops can only be determined as XX genotype (female) because the part of the Y chromosome that makes a male a male, doesn't start to exhibit characteristics until 6-8 weeks after conception. All vertebrates develop this way...and the general public knew this as soon as they saw Jurassic Park the 1st time because they introduced an inhibitor which blocked those "male" genes from going through transcription. That was actually based on actual scientific knowledge.
 
That's the one I am speaking of but I don't know enough about Lia's personal life before coming out as trans or when/if they did any hormone therapy, etc. I do know that she won an event and people were up in arms about it yet never mentioned the dozens of races she lost to other swimmers. And usually it only takes is one time where a trans athlete wins something and people go crazy and start gatekeeping like they're some sort of knight in shining armor coming to the rescue and they conveniently leave off the hundred of instances where the trans athlete did not win whatever the sport. Bizarre thing is at my daughter's age the girls actually have higher speed standards for qualifying times than the boys do. Not until they hit HS do the standards for boys become tougher than the girls.

And it's sort of hypocritical for all these Republican gatekeepers to start carrying out the EO and yet someone like Caitlyn Jenner is one of their most staunch supporters yet, according to the EO, their passport is now required to indicate MALE. Does this mean they need to transition back to a male because their gender appearance is not going to match the gender on their passport/DL meaning they shouldn't be able to board a plane or vote or a hundred different things. Or will Trump make an exception for Caitlyn because they support him (which is likely...Trump is all about Trump and his ego). BTW, a number of geneticists, physicians, and other individuals who study human development all noted that because the EO specifically indicates a person's gender is what they are at conception, then every last person in the US is now going to be listed as FEMALE because at conception, every embryo that develops can only be determined as XX genotype (female) because the part of the Y chromosome that makes a male a male, doesn't start to exhibit characteristics until 6-8 weeks after conception. All vertebrates develop this way...and the general public knew this as soon as they saw Jurassic Park the 1st time because they introduced an inhibitor which blocked those "male" genes from going through transcription. That was actually based on actual scientific knowledge.
Lia Thomas was/is a biological man. Grew up as William Thomas. He began the transition while in college at Penn in 2019. After the transition he moved from the men’s team to the women’s team where he was allowed to compete. The issue here is as a biological male who went through puberty he has all the physical advantages inherit with the same. He was not allowed to compete in the Paris Olympics as a female. Which was probably the correct call if we have an interest in protecting women’s sports from biological males who transition well after puberty.
 
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Lia Thomas was/is a biological man. Grew up as William Thomas. He began the transition while in college at Penn in 2019. After the transition he moved from the men’s team to the women’s team where he was allowed to compete. The issue here is as a biological male who went through puberty he has all the physical advantages inherit with the same. He was not allowed to compete in the Paris Olympics as a female. Which was probably the correct call if we have an interest in protecting women’s sports from biological males who transition well after puberty.
I would agree on that aspect. Maybe after a certain time of hormone transition therapy, but I still don't know enough about that to understand how much that would affect previously built muscle mass from regular biological testosterone to that point. In states like Oklahoma, that's the only time a person could start those transitioning treatments though due to state law prohibiting conversion therapy and gender reassignment surgeries on minors.

I think there is an honest discussion about this out there where things could be handled on a case by case basis instead of the either/or stances everyone is taking. And there's probably a psychological/psychiatric diagnosis piece that could also be used to help. I know there are naysayers out there in Lia Thomas' case thinking they're just saying they are a woman for a competitive advantage. Psychological analysis would easily be able to prove/disprove that. Has the individual started the process of gender reassignment? Does this include a surgical plan for that individual?
 
I would agree on that aspect. Maybe after a certain time of hormone transition therapy, but I still don't know enough about that to understand how much that would affect previously built muscle mass from regular biological testosterone to that point. In states like Oklahoma, that's the only time a person could start those transitioning treatments though due to state law prohibiting conversion therapy and gender reassignment surgeries on minors.

I think there is an honest discussion about this out there where things could be handled on a case by case basis instead of the either/or stances everyone is taking. And there's probably a psychological/psychiatric diagnosis piece that could also be used to help. I know there are naysayers out there in Lia Thomas' case thinking they're just saying they are a woman for a competitive advantage. Psychological analysis would easily be able to prove/disprove that. Has the individual started the process of gender reassignment? Does this include a surgical plan for that individual?
To me the key question isn’t the plan or psychological. I would focus on when did the male begin the transition. In Lia’s case the transition was started around the age of 20. Lia had already physically benefited from the testosterone associated with being a male…denser and larger bones, muscle mass, skeletal structure, etc.. You can’t really put that genie back in the lamp. Now starting ones transition prior to the benefits of puberty would be a completely different dynamic. The focus should be on the degree of advantage gained over female athletes which they wish to compete against.

You’re a soccer ref. You’ve seen first hand the difference in the speed of the game between an ECNL U16 boys game versus a U16 girls game. There’s a reason why the better 15 year old MLS Next teams would beat the best women’s team in the world
 
To me the key question isn’t the plan or psychological. I would focus on when did the male begin the transition. In Lia’s case the transition was started around the age of 20. Lia had already physically benefited from the testosterone associated with being a male…denser and larger bones, muscle mass, skeletal structure, etc.. You can’t really put that genie back in the lamp. Now starting ones transition prior to the benefits of puberty would be a completely different dynamic. The focus should be on the degree of advantage gained over female athletes which they wish to compete against.

You’re a soccer ref. You’ve seen first hand the difference in the speed of the game between an ECNL U16 boys game versus a U16 girls game. There’s a reason why the better 15 year old MLS Next teams would beat the best women’s team in the world
I think my point is at what point after the hormone therapy begins, does the benefit of the testosterone wane and you start seeing some of that muscle mass loss? Can they maintain the former muscle mass even after 2 years? 5 Years? Have there been any long term physiological studies where there ceases to be that advantage any longer?

Then there's the phenotype female who is a trans-male. We don't see many of these cases in the sports world. What if we did? Males aren't allowed to take extra testosterone or even testosterone precursors as most of those substances are considered PEDs or are on the banned substances list. If a female is transitioning to a male and is involved in sports (and has a "doctor's note") would they still be allowed to be undergoing the hormone treatments and still compete if they chose to?

And yes, the difference between boys and girls and the speed and strength after puberty is striking. My son's U13 coach at TSc also coached an 04 girls team and an 06 girls team. He would always have the boys scrimmage the 04 girls and the boys would whomp them something bad. These girls were bigger and had more experience. Some of them were used to just crushing female opponents on the pitch but they couldn't against the boys in an age group 2 years younger where not all of the boys had yet to feel the full effects of puberty.
 
I think my point is at what point after the hormone therapy begins, does the benefit of the testosterone wane and you start seeing some of that muscle mass loss? Can they maintain the former muscle mass even after 2 years? 5 Years? Have there been any long term physiological studies where there ceases to be that advantage any longer?

Then there's the phenotype female who is a trans-male. We don't see many of these cases in the sports world. What if we did? Males aren't allowed to take extra testosterone or even testosterone precursors as most of those substances are considered PEDs or are on the banned substances list. If a female is transitioning to a male and is involved in sports (and has a "doctor's note") would they still be allowed to be undergoing the hormone treatments and still compete if they chose to?

And yes, the difference between boys and girls and the speed and strength after puberty is striking. My son's U13 coach at TSc also coached an 04 girls team and an 06 girls team. He would always have the boys scrimmage the 04 girls and the boys would whomp them something bad. These girls were bigger and had more experience. Some of them were used to just crushing female opponents on the pitch but they couldn't against the boys in an age group 2 years younger where not all of the boys had yet to feel the full effects of puberty.
I have my doubts if there will ever be a female who is transitioning to a male post puberty competing in high level (D1) college athletics or at the Olympic level. Would be very interesting to see it but the physical disadvantages of not going through puberty as a male would make it very difficult imo.

My daughter occasionally trains with the local 15 and 16 year old MLS Next boys. 3-4 years ago she could play them heads up. Those days are long gone.
 
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