Climate Change: the costs of doing nothing

[watu05]

In the posts here the economic objection to mitigating climate change has been that it is "too expensive". That view relies on the assumption that climate change will not have long lasting effects on economic growth and only the costs or fixing the damage from storms, crops failures, etc. should be counted as the costs of doing nothing about climate change. An increasing number of research groups are looking at that assumption and coming to a different view. Here's one:

Can the economy afford NOT to fight climate change? » Yale Climate Connections

Some say the economic costs of fighting climate change are too high, but a new study shows the economic cost of doing nothing could be 15 times higher than current estimates.

yaleclimateconnections.org

 

[watu05]

reread the article.... BTW what's the ROI of the defense budget?

 

[lawpoke87]

My posts have zero to do with expense. My objection has and continues to be that there is nothing the US can do to prevent the world from crossing the point of no return. It is a mathematical fact. The heavily populated areaS of the world continue to increase carbon emissions and will for the foreseeable future. We would be wise to start investing our “climate change” money in a plan to combat instead of pursuing a path certain to fail.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

how will we know if what we are doing helps. what are the milestones. what if we do too much and cause an ice age?

Ha, ha, ha, hah! 🤣

 

[astonmartin708]

My posts have zero to do with expense. My objection has and continues to be that there is nothing the US can do to prevent the world from crossing the point of no return. It is a mathematical fact. The heavily populated areaS of the world continue to increase carbon emissions and will for the foreseeable future. We would be wise to start investing our “climate change” money in a plan to combat instead of pursuing a path certain to fail.

Why do you think that a 'plan to combat' isn't certain to fail as well?

 

[lawpoke87]

Why do you think that a 'plan to combat' isn't certain to fail as well?

We would need to actually see a plan (any plan) for dealing with a warmer and wetter climate before making any determination I suppose.

 

[watu05]

Hey, going from accusing NASA and NOAA of faking temperature readings to advocating for a plan to combat is at least an admission climate change is real. Progress.
The article discusses avoiding the worst vs. Just coping with the aftermath. Acting now is the more economical approach.

 

[astonmartin708]

We would need to actually see a plan (any plan) for dealing with a warmer and wetter climate before making any determination I suppose.

Well… you better get to it…

 

[aTUfan]

nyc and cali are banning gas hook ups in all new building construction. no gas heat, no gas oven. . . Do we have the power grid to support the new demand for electric?

 

[astonmartin708]

nyc and cali are banning gas hook ups in all new building construction. no gas heat, no gas oven. . . Do we have the power grid to support the new demand for electric?

In my opinion, no we do not yet have that. It’s certainly something that both regulated utilities and general energy providers are working toward though. The infrastructure bull would certainly help by the way… especially with Solar development, Energy Storage development and High Voltage transfer cables which are necessary to be able to more effectively move energy between the US interconnects which can’t move AC currents because of different phasing.

 

[URedskin54]

Hey, going from accusing NASA and NOAA of faking temperature readings to advocating for a plan to combat is at least an admission climate change is real. Progress.
The article discusses avoiding the worst vs. Just coping with the aftermath. Acting now is the more economical approach.

Unfortunately it’s already too late. All of America’s coastal cities are under water just as the Prophet Al-Gore, peace be upon him, predicted.

 

[watu05]

Study: Shelf holding back key Antarctic glacier could break up in 5 years - UPI.com

Scientists warned Monday that an ice shelf holding a crucial Antarctic glacier could break up within the next five years, potentially greatly increasing the rate of sea level rise.

www.upi.com

 

[lawpoke87]

2012….scientist warn arctic could be ice free in ten years

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.1131487

 

[URedskin54]

Study: Shelf holding back key Antarctic glacier could break up in 5 years - UPI.com

Scientists warned Monday that an ice shelf holding a crucial Antarctic glacier could break up within the next five years, potentially greatly increasing the rate of sea level rise.

www.upi.com

oh praise be the truthsayers who have Seen this new prophesy

 

[astonmartin708]

In my opinion, no we do not yet have that. It’s certainly something that both regulated utilities and general energy providers are working toward though. The infrastructure bull would certainly help by the way… especially with Solar development, Energy Storage development and High Voltage transfer cables which are necessary to be able to more effectively move energy between the US interconnects which can’t move AC currents because of different phasing.

Of course I say this and Joe Lieberm.... I mean Joe Manchin tanks the bill because he is a Republican in everything but name. Someday the US will have a Progressive majority that will actually have enough votes to do something.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Of course I say this and Joe Lieberm.... I mean Joe Manchin tanks the bill because he is a Republican in everything but name. Someday the US will have a Progressive majority that will actually have enough votes to do something.

You r as bad as right wing republicans that claim any centrist republicans are RINOS. Thank god u r wrong about your imminent utopia of PROGRESSIVE Democrats reaching vote capacity to DO something.

Right wing and/or full on Progressives taking over will signal 📶 the end of our Democracy, & possibly civil war. You & the right wing keep hoping for the end.

 

[astonmartin708]

You r as bad as right wing republicans that claim any centrist republicans are RINOS. Thank god u r wrong about your imminent utopia of PROGRESSIVE Democrats reaching vote capacity to DO something. Right wing and/or full on Progressives taking over will signal 📶 the end of our Democracy, & possibly civil war. You & the right wing keep hoping for the end.

There is a difference between moderate compromise and outright obstruction. We've moved past him being a "centerist" and into territory where he's not only not helping the people of his state, but also hurting the people of many others. It's the same crap that Joe Lieberman pulled when the ACA was being passed which is why it sucked so bad. On the other hand, the R's keep passing their Tax Cuts and stealing Supreme Court seats while the D's can't get their ducks in a row long enough to pass a broadly supported agenda.

If R's keep electing leaders like GWB and Trump then it will be inevitable that a Progressive wing with a broad mandate will be elected. It's just a matter of time.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

There is a difference between moderate compromise and outright obstruction. We've moved past him being a "centerist" and into territory where he's not only not helping the people of his state, but also hurting the people of many others. It's the same crap that Joe Lieberman pulled when the ACA was being passed which is why it sucked so bad. On the other hand, the R's keep passing their Tax Cuts and stealing Supreme Court seats while the D's can't get their ducks in a row long enough to pass a broadly supported agenda.

If R's keep electing leaders like GWB and Trump then it will be inevitable that a Progressive wing with a broad mandate will be elected. It's just a matter of democretime.

No it's not. & I will gladly capitulate 6, 10, 14 years later, when this pipe dream 💭 of yours supposedly happens. When and if it did happen, is the moment that Jan 6 seems minor.

I wonder when Jan 6 is going to overtake democratic sentiment, and upon the Republicans blocking of approval for s.c., will turn into democratic jan 6.

 

[URedskin54]

Joe Biden ran on a platform of moderation and "return to normalcy." He should focus on acting as he campaigned rather than trying to pass progressive pipe dreams

 

[Gmoney4WW]

No it's not. & I will gladly capitulate 6, 10, 14 years later, when this pipe dream 💭 of yours supposedly happens. When and if it did happen, is the moment that Jan 6 seems minor.

I wonder when Jan 6 is going to overtake democratic sentiment, and upon the Republicans blocking of approval for s.c., will turn into democratic jan 6.

Meant to mention that I would almost never support a Jan 6 type event. Yet I could understand it if they were to attempt to block a Democratic nomination for the SC. It was wrong the first time the Republican party did it, and would be doubly wrong if done again.

 

[astonmartin708]

Meant to mention that I would almost never support a Jan 6 type event. Yet I could understand it if they were to attempt to block a Democratic nomination for the SC. It was wrong the first time the Republican party did it, and would be doubly wrong if done again.

No, what will happen is that whenever D’s regained both chambers again, you would see an immediate dissolution of the filibuster, which certainly isn’t a good thing overall… but I think the majority of the population is tired of one side getting their way continually despite being a significant minority party.

 

[astonmartin708]

Joe Biden ran on a platform of moderation and "return to normalcy." He should focus on acting as he campaigned rather than trying to pass progressive pipe dreams

I don’t think you actually listened to what he campaigned on. You apparently listened selectively. I would argue that his administration has been ultra middle of the road so far. In fact they haven’t been allowed to do anything of significance with respect to any left leaning agenda.

 

[aTUfan]

I don’t think you actually listened to what he campaigned on. You apparently listened selectively. I would argue that his administration has been ultra middle of the road so far. In fact they haven’t been allowed to do anything of significance with respect to any left leaning agenda.

student loans, bbb ie. social spending, min wage, knee jerk all things green, mandates, loss of medical privacy, keystone pipeline, giving in to foreign leaders, inflation, open border, blm, crt,
percecution of republicans, and an obsession with trump etal

 

[URedskin54]

I don’t think you actually listened to what he campaigned on. You apparently listened selectively. I would argue that his administration has been ultra middle of the road so far. In fact they haven’t been allowed to do anything of significance with respect to any left leaning agenda.

I think most are aware that he spoke out of both assholes like every politician, but his whole thing was being the moderate D who wasn’t a crazy person like Trump. He has done what he has been allowed to do with a closely divided Congress, which is not much. But the monstrosities he’s been trying to pass…..nothing moderate about it

 

[Gmoney4WW]

In fact they haven’t been allowed to do anything of significance with respect to any left leaning agenda.

You just outed him/yourself right there, subconsciously stating reality.

 

[URedskin54]

 

[astonmartin708]

You just outed him/yourself right there, subconsciously stating reality.

I’m not subconsciously stating anything. I consciously stating that the way the rules of the game are structured has benefited conservative majorities. They’ve been able to pass extremely right leaning, partisan bills and acts with similar congressional makeups while the left has had no such ability. That means that rather than sticking somewhat in the middle, the laws and judiciary of the country has drifted to the right in spite of most Americans disagreeing with those policies. It’s become a tyranny of the minority because one side benefits from loopholes in the system while the other can’t get its voting members in line. It’s the same crap that happened with coalition governments in the Weimar Republic. The center and left couldn’t agree completely so the ultra right benefited greatly.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I don’t think you actually listened to what he campaigned on. You apparently listened selectively. I would argue that his administration has been ultra middle of the road so far. In fact they haven’t been allowed to do anything of significance with respect to any left leaning agenda.

Your boy 👦 would have passed extremely left wing bills if it weren't for Sinema and Manchin. It is those two that stopped him, not his centrist policies.

 

[lawpoke87]

The bills coming out of the Biden Admin have been further left than any President in memory. Thankfully he’s had to take much of the far left wing stuff out of these bills in order the gain enough support to pass the same. Doesn’t take away from the original laws he has tried to pass.

Biden’s nominees have also tended to be far left wing btw. Case in point

Opinion | Saule Omarova Withdraws

The White House lost on her nomination because it is bowing to Elizabeth Warren on financial regulation.

www.wsj.com

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I don't think Biden is as left wing as the legislation he has put before Congress.

What I do think, is that he handles pressure from the progressive wing of his party 🎉 horribly.

He is either gutless, or beholden to that wing of the party,(for favors they did him in the campaign, in order for him to win the election) or both.

 

[watu05]

Biden has done exactly what he said he would do, but every day we witness how divided the country has become. The far right both refuses to participate in basic public health and holds Biden responsible for new variants. The far right promises for decades to improve infrastructure (including Trump) and then opposes the bill that does exactly what they said the country needs. BBB was hardly as far left as this board claims and to was put through the normal legislative process with out screwing with the Senate rules. Manchin didn't save the republic, he undermined addressing issues that won't wait: climate change being a big one. The rest of bill would basically have put the US in line with services that the world's other industrialized countries routinely offer.

It is, however, a relief that we don't wake up everyday with a new scandal, a new drama designed to enhance presidential ego, a new effort to undermine relations with allies, or attempts to blame everyone and anyone for the abject failures that characterized the previous administrations attempt to accomplish anything.

If the US wants to compete and maintain a semblance of world leadership, it needs to invest in education, infrastructure, R&D, reducing competitive barriers erected by a few huge companies, and build international coalitions. Instead we sit around blaming the Chinese, Canada, Mexico, Europe for all our economic problems and talking ourselves into yet another war; all the while ignoring that a group of extremists attempted a coup to destroy our most sacred democratic institutions.

No wonder other countries take the US less and less seriously. We're obsessed with the political equivalent of stupid pet tricks instead of moving a country forward.

 

[astonmartin708]

Your boy 👦 would have passed extremely left wing bills if it weren't for Sinema and Manchin. It is those two that stopped him, not his centrist policies.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the fact that two senators are standing in the way of things has prevented the legislative average of the last ten years from being in the center. When you add R+3 with the Tax Cuts and Jobs act and D-1 with a bipartisan infrastructure bill you get R+2. Then we start talking about the Supreme Court shenanigan's.

The last significant left leaning legislation that was passed happened more than a decade ago with the ACA, and it's not because of overwhelming support for conservative lawmakers or policies. Your boys DID pass extremely right wing bills because they made the moderates in their wing scared of the looney tunes tea party / insurrectionist base that's been brainwashed by Hannity.... that is except for the guy who had terminal brain cancer and had nothing left to be afraid of. If I were the party higher ups, I would primary the hell out of Manchin, even if it means losing WV for a generation. No more holding the party or the country hostage for your own personal interests.

 

[URedskin54]

It is, however, a relief that we don't wake up everyday with a new scandal, a new drama designed to enhance presidential ego, a new effort to undermine relations with allies, or attempts to blame everyone and anyone for the abject failures that characterized the previous administrations attempt to accomplish anything.

No wonder other countries take the US less and less seriously. We're obsessed with the political equivalent of stupid pet tricks instead of moving a country forward.

I assume we're just not counting the part where we left Afghanistan without telling any of our allies, resulting in them being forced to leave many of their people behind and then all of them talking about how it brought great shame to our country, because that probably wasn’t great for our reputation. And then that part where the administration pretended it was inevitable and tried to pass off all blame to other people. That was truly presidential. Reminded me of certain former President.

You’re a blind partisan, but it made me feel a little better to see a good number of Democrats who were completely disgusted with the total lack of empathy and character Biden showed throughout that withdrawal. It is a stain he can never wash off.

 

[lawpoke87]

Your views are not shared by most Americans…especially independent voters. Biden is currently viewed as a disaster on all major issues including being a divisive force. Blaming others for one’s failures never has been a winning strategy. The bleak reality

The Democratic Party’s deterioration is shattering hope for the midterms

The Democratic Party has lost sight of how to build a broad-based coalition, and as a result, is finding itself in an increasingly unelectable and unsustainable position.

thehill.com

 

[Gmoney4WW]

We're talking bout what Biden would have passed if not for two democrats, and you try to distract by bringing up what was passed by the previous regime. Nice try. And on top 🔝 of that you say 💭 you are talking bout the average of the last ten years. That was not the original topic of conversation. And if you disagree, then check your post 📬 that we were responding to.

I don’t think you actually listened to what he campaigned on. You apparently listened selectively. I would argue that his administration has been ultra middle of the road so far. In fact they haven’t been allowed to do anything of significance with respect to any left leaning agenda.

It was not biden but sinema 🎦 & manchin that stopped the left leaning agenda. And we weren't talking bout the average legislation passed over ten years. Stop while u r behind.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I don't think Biden is as left wing as the legislation he has put before Congress.

What I do think, is that he handles pressure from the progressive wing of his party 🎉 horribly.

He is either gutless, or beholden to that wing of the party,(for favors they did him in the campaign, in order for him to win the election) or both.

When I wrote this I hadn't read Manchin's remarks about his problem not with Biden, but with his administration. Biden can't even put his foot 👣 down with his own administration.

It's apparently not his advisors, but policy dictators in his own administration. I've seen reports of this before.

Is he so beholden, or is it difficulty with his own mental faculties, or a bit of both? He doesn't seem to be in control of his own administration.

 

[astonmartin708]

When I wrote this I hadn't read Manchin's remarks about his problem not with Biden, but with his administration. Biden can't even put his foot 👣 down with his own administration.

It's apparently not his advisors, but policy dictators in his own administration. I've seen reports of this before.

Is he so beholden, or is it difficulty with his own mental faculties, or a bit of both? He doesn't seem to be in control of his own administration.

One might wonder though; if this is part of a strategy by the Democratic party at large. I mean, I think they're not coordinated enough for this, but Manchin getting to hold out as long as he can gains points with conservatives and moderates and Biden getting a deal done before the midterms would be beneficial come voting day. If it was a planned stall then I would call it devious but intelligent.

 

[URedskin54]

Would not surprise me at all if most congressional Dems want nothing to do with the bills crafted by their nutjob wing and are happy to let Manchin play the foil, fundraise off of it, and give him cred in a state they won’t win for 50 years if he loses/switches parties

 

[Gmoney4WW]

One might wonder though; if this is part of a strategy by the Democratic party at large. I mean, I think they're not coordinated enough for this, but Manchin getting to hold out as long as he can gains points with conservatives and moderates and Biden getting a deal done before the midterms would be beneficial come voting day. If it was a planned stall then I would call it devious but intelligent.

This deal done b4 the midterms won't salvage the elections. If that were their plan, it's a crappy one that will not work. No, I think Biden is not truly in control of his administration or the progressives, end of story. I think he may be happy if he gets something the moderates approve of passed. But it is no devious overarching democratic plan, manfactured to salvage the midterms. The Democratic party is just as broken as the Republican party.

 

[astonmartin708]

This deal done b4 the midterms won't salvage the elections. If that were their plan, it's a crappy one that will not work. No, I think Biden is not truly in control of his administration or the progressives, end of story. I think he may be happy if he gets something the moderates approve of passed. But it is no devious overarching democratic plan, manfactured to salvage the midterms. The Democratic party is just as broken as the Republican party.

I don’t think the Republican Party is broken at all. I think it’s a well oiled (and corrupt) political machine that tends to have terrible ideas and promote people to power who have zero business being there. The Dems are broken and can’t get their crap together long enough to stop it.

I agree that Biden isn’t in full control of the government… nor should he be since he’s like 104 years old. I do think that the administration currently in power is light years better than the one we had a year ago though. (In terms of honestly trying to make the country better rather than playing the game for themselves)