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Challenging the election.

Meanwhile, Trump is recorded on the phone with the Secretary of State of Georgia trying to pilfer a change of the votes in that state. Trump is literally the most corrupt official that has ever touched the presidency by a large margin. Worse than Kennedy or Nixon, worse than Johnson, worse than Clinton.
 
At least the other presidents observed our institutions, and one could argue they thought they were doing the right thing for the country.

Weirdly Covid could have made Trump’s re-election a shoe in if he had taken it seriously. He was on a roll after the SOU speech. Covid gave him the chance to be a ‘wartime leader’ and pull the country together to face a common challenge. Instead he denied, blamed, and lied. So the world’s wealthiest country with the world‘s leading public health and medical expertise is leading the world in deaths and infections.
 
A waste of time and energy because it is not going get the election reversed and adds anamosity.

Very much like the Impeachment procedings.

Is this going to be the new normal?
The Dems challenged the last two Republicans who were elected President so not really as outrageous or uncommon as people make it out to be.
 
Meanwhile, Trump is recorded on the phone with the Secretary of State of Georgia trying to pilfer a change of the votes in that state. Trump is literally the most corrupt official that has ever touched the presidency by a large margin. Worse than Kennedy or Nixon, worse than Johnson, worse than Clinton.
One thing I found interesting is that Patrick Byrne leaked a tweet alleging fake ballots were found in a warehouse Georgia along with shredding trucks allegedly picking these ballots up after being discovered and shredded. It’s unproven if the video reveals his narrative however before the video was released, he texted out that fraud had been found and they needed to go through the lawyers before revealing more. Why would he have to do that? You and I can take a video of anything right now and post it. We don’t need lawyers. If I’m a betting man, I bet there is a federal investigation going on behind the scenes.

Secondly, as the world learned from the impeachment trial, all official calls made by any POTUS are recorded and available for public record. I have already heard sound bites from the conversation released by the media. Which law was broken during this conversation?
 
At least the other presidents observed our institutions, and one could argue they thought they were doing the right thing for the country.

Weirdly Covid could have made Trump’s re-election a shoe in if he had taken it seriously. He was on a roll after the SOU speech. Covid gave him the chance to be a ‘wartime leader’ and pull the country together to face a common challenge. Instead he denied, blamed, and lied. So the world’s wealthiest country with the world‘s leading public health and medical expertise is leading the world in deaths and infections.

It’s tough when red states like California have 50k cases per day
 
The only election really challenged was Bush/Gore in Florida, and there was a verifiable event there with the chads. It is uncommon. Keep trying to muddy the waters.
 
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Time to repair the system, the honor system no longer works.

1. No more voter registration on just a post card. Verify, validate, id.

2. Purge the roll of the dead and people who move.

3. Registration cut off x days before the election for validation.

4. No day of registration.

5. Mail in ballots must be received by midnight on election day.

6. Voting process/machines must be approved by both parties and the same in every state for federal elections

7. Better chain of evidence for ballot boxes and the ballots.

8. Each mail in ballot must be requested by the voter a n d signed by the voter. Voting in ie nursing homes must be observed by both parties and noted on the ballot.
 
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Im no lawyer but based on what has been released, that would be extremely hard to sell. I wonder why the lady who Trump accused of committing fraud hasn’t sued for defamation yet. I know I would if I were her.

I think the statute is on point. If that call isn’t an attempt to change the outcome of an election (“go find 11,000 votes”), then I don’t know what would be. As with a lot of federal law, an attempt can also be a criminal act. Likewise, there are other state statutes involved.

I believe this is the entry point, not the end analysis. Trump made dozens of calls (if not more) like this. Are there other tapes?

The best argument I have heard so far is that the same Nixon era DOJ policy which prevents prosecution of a President in office would prevent prosecution of this. That isn’t a law. Likewise, a “self pardon” is untested. We don’t know how any of this plays out. Anyone that says they do is lying.

I have heard that Biden doesn’t want to spend his time in office dealing with this. But I think he should. So much of what Trump has done directly violates state and federal law. The law matters to me more than the political side. We can’t allow people to run roughshod over the law.

Your statement about defamation is mostly a non sequitur, but since you bring it up: 1) there is a statute of limitations and no requirement to immediately bring a civil lawsuit and 2) there are state statutes which make defamation a crime in addition to a civil cause of action.
 
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I think the statute is on point. If that call isn’t an attempt to change the outcome of an election (“go find 11,000 votes”), then I don’t know what would be. As with a lot of federal law, an attempt can also be a criminal act. Likewise, there are other state statutes involved.

I believe this is the entry point, not the end analysis. Trump made dozens of calls (if not more) like this. Are there other tapes?

The best argument I have heard so far is that the same Nixon era DOJ policy which prevents prosecution of a President in office would prevent prosecution of this. That isn’t a law. Likewise, a “self pardon” is untested. We don’t know how any of this plays out. Anyone that says they do is lying.

I have heard that Biden doesn’t want to spend his time in office dealing with this. But I think he should. So much of what Trump has done directly violates state and federal law. The law matters to me more than the political side. We can’t allow people to run roughshod over the law.

Your statement about defamation is mostly a non sequitur, but since you bring it up: 1) there is a statute of limitations and no requirement to immediately bring a civil lawsuit and 2) there are state statutes which make defamation a crime in addition to a civil cause of action.
The crap thing is that Biden correctly assumes that everybody would assume the vengeance thing. The focus wouldn't be on the right thing. The right thing would be stopping a future Trump from trying this same crap again. It really needs to be done, but won't due to politics, Trump's base, and Biden wanting to get something done besides get into the morass again. A lot of crap needs to be reset after Trump.
 
The Dems challenged the last two Republicans who were elected President so not really as outrageous or uncommon as people make it out to be.
I fail to recall Gore, Kerry, or Clinton trying to organize this kind of resistance. No congressman or Senator objected to any electoral slate from Trump or Bush.

I'll grant Gore did formally challenge the results initially, but also dropped all his challenges and conceded (and even read in the names of the Florida electors to the Senate as was his duty) as soon as the SCOTUS ruled. Also, Florida was decided by a few hundred votes and had some legitimate questions about how the election was handled/counted. These 'disputed' results are all decided by more than 10,000 votes.

You confuse the sour grapes from a few party faithful that made some noise and complained about being cheated (same as it ever was) with concerted efforts by the party or the candidate to overturn results and egging on those same disgruntled party faithful. That has not ever happened until now.
 
Trump is making us think twice about writing into law all the things which never needed to be, because the decorum of Presidents was kosher for over 230 years.

Now it's not.
 
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One of the best explanations of the law I’ve ever heard (it was a reference to the evidence code) is that it’s an unfinished building. You can’t assume every situation. (Although the federal codes and statutes challenge that notion.) A lot of our success in our history depended on good people doing the right thing, especially in the presidential election which leaves a lot open to discussion (I believe that discussion is pretty narrow, but our OK senators seem to think you can create a magic commission to investigate). It takes a malevolent actor to break that tradition. And that’s what Trump has proven to be. You can’t assume he will do the right thing. It’s always about self interest, self preservation, and disruption.
 
It’s tough when red states like California have 50k cases per day

Thanks. Exactly my point. Denying, lying, and pushing responsibility off to the states is the opposite of leadership and effective management. Enough people caught on.
 
Thanks. Exactly my point. Denying, lying, and pushing responsibility off to the states is the opposite of leadership and effective management. Enough people caught on.

I just want red states like California to do better WaXi
 
Looks like Raffensberger was lured into a trap. According to multiple MSM sources, the Secret Service is now investigating him under the Espionage Act for leaking the meeting as well as “sharing it with another country”. Every man/woman is innocent until proven guilty and an Investigation isn’t a conviction but it certainly conveniently gave the Feds the opportunity they were waiting for to pull his life apart. He better hope and pray he was telling the truth about the election stuff bc his actions definitely opened up Pandora’s Box.
 
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One of the best explanations of the law I’ve ever heard (it was a reference to the evidence code) is that it’s an unfinished building. You can’t assume every situation. (Although the federal codes and statutes challenge that notion.) A lot of our success in our history depended on good people doing the right thing, especially in the presidential election which leaves a lot open to discussion (I believe that discussion is pretty narrow, but our OK senators seem to think you can create a magic commission to investigate). It takes a malevolent actor to break that tradition. And that’s what Trump has proven to be. You can’t assume he will do the right thing. It’s always about self interest, self preservation, and disruption.
Which is truly ironic that Nixon acted with virtue and selflessness as Kennedy and Johnson brazenly stole the election.
 
Im no lawyer but...
Looks like Raffensberger was lured into a trap. According to multiple MSM sources, the Secret Service is now investigating him under the Espionage Act for leaking the meeting as well as “sharing it with another country”. Every man/woman is innocent until proven guilty and an Investigation isn’t a conviction but it certainly conveniently gave the Feds the opportunity they were waiting for to pull his life apart. He better hope and pray he was telling the truth about the election stuff bc his actions definitely opened up Pandora’s Box.
He'll(Shon) throw out anything.

DOJ would investigate anything under the Espionage act, not the Secret Service.

Secret Service investigates financial crimes. Entails the investigation and enforcement of a variety of crimes, to include, but not limited to, counterfeiting, financial institution fraud, computer and telecommunications fraud, access device fraud, and money laundering violations.

Just because they protect foreign dignitaries does not mean they are the ones responsible for investigating violations of the Espionage Act. Not their department.
 
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Which is truly ironic that Nixon acted with virtue and selflessness as Kennedy and Johnson brazenly stole the election.

That’a not true. Been needing to respond to your other post. Also, that’s Shon level cogent in response to my post.
 
Found an article from Law & Crime that spells it all out for you, including the responsibilities of investigating the Espionage Act. Trump exhibiting his desperation again, by getting a few loyal Secret Service agents to throw out a threat of investigation. Trump just trying to carry through on his threats in the phone call recording.(It's still just a threat. The investigation hasn't started, and it won't ever start.) He's sinking himself even more on 52 U.S. Code 20511. He is doing his best to make that statute easily prosecutable against him. I can't believe he hasn't sunk himself in court before, such that he couldn't recover. He is a blazing idiot with his persistent need to prove he wins at anything, and/or take out vengeance on anyone that 'did him wrong.'


Pay specific attention to Moss's quote about conspiracy porn.

Not espionage(Law & Crime)
 
Found an article from Law & Crime that spells it all out for you, including the responsibilities of investigating the Espionage Act. Trump exhibiting his desperation again, by getting a few loyal Secret Service agents to throw out a threat of investigation. Trump just trying to carry through on his threats in the phone call recording.(It's still just a threat. The investigation hasn't started, and it won't ever start.) He's sinking himself even more on 52 U.S. Code 20511. He is doing his best to make that statute easily prosecutable against him. I can't believe he hasn't sunk himself in court before, such that he couldn't recover. He is a blazing idiot with his persistent need to prove he wins at anything, and/or take out vengeance on anyone that 'did him wrong.'


Pay specific attention to Moss's quote about conspiracy porn.

Not espionage(Law & Crime)
You are wrong! 😂 The Executive Order passed by POTUS in 2018 stated that any election information is a matter of National Security and stipulates that all discussions had for the purpose of settling litigation are confidential under federal and state law. The Secret Service absolutely has jurisdiction in accordance with the Executive Order. He at the minimum would be investigated for leaking classified information however his email sent to a foreign country is what caused the espionage act to be pursued. I know you don’t know that so I try to make it plain!
 
Im no lawyer but...
You are wrong! 😂 The Executive Order passed by POTUS in 2018 stated that any election information is a matter of National Security and stipulates that all discussions had for the purpose of settling litigation are confidential under federal and state law. The Secret Service absolutely has jurisdiction in accordance with the Executive Order. He at the minimum would be investigated for leaking classified information however his email sent to a foreign country is what caused the espionage act to be pursued. I know you don’t know that so I try to make it plain!
You must not have read the entire article I cited. Several people were officially involved in the call who weren't cleared for classified information, thus it couldn't be classified.

You can't dictate which agency is responsible for an investigation in an executive order. Those determinations are dictated by the Constitution, and legislation. It should be the FBI or a general investigation by the DOJ for this, whether it is over classified info or the Espionage act. There was no financial or cyber involved. It can't be under the Secret Service's per view.

Yeah, I'll take Bradley P Moss, Steven Vladeck, and other cited attorneys opinion over yours. I'm not wrong. We'll see whether this investigation even gets started, much less completed. I'll laugh my ass off if it gets canned over the secret service starting the investigation illegally. I'm sure the advisors won't let it go that far though. If they start the investigation, I'm sure it would be with the DOJ or FBI. You realize that any kind of investigation that gets started, no matter who takes it up, will likely get halted as soon as Biden takes office? Nobody's gonna continue this trumped up crap, that they know is trumped up, after Trump leaves DC. It won't even take any influence from Biden for something like that to stop.
 
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The Executive Order passed by POTUS in 2018 stated that any election information is a matter of National Security and stipulates that all discussions had for the purpose of settling litigation are confidential under federal and state law.

No. No, it doesn’t.

 
You must not have read the entire article I cited. Several people were officially involved in the call who weren't cleared for classified information, thus it couldn't be classified.

You can't dictate which agency is responsible for an investigation in an executive order. Those determinations are dictated by the Constitution, and legislation. It should be the FBI or a general investigation by the DOJ for this, whether it is over classified info or the Espionage act. There was no financial or cyber involved. It can't be under the Secret Service's per view.

Yeah, I'll take Bradley P Moss, Steven Vladeck, and other cited attorneys opinion over yours. I'm not wrong. We'll see whether this investigation even gets started, much less completed. I'll laugh my ass off if it gets canned over the secret service starting the investigation illegally. I'm sure the advisors won't let it go that far though. If they start the investigation, I'm sure it would be with the DOJ or FBI. You realize that any kind of investigation that gets started, no matter who takes it up, will likely get halted as soon as Biden takes office? Nobody's gonna continue this trumped up crap, that they know is trumped up, after Trump leaves DC. It won't even take any influence from Biden for something like that to stop.

The process with the Secret Service has already started! Under normal circumstances I would agree that this goes nowhere however with the breaking news that the US Attorney in Northern GA just suddenly resigned and all my buddies who work at the White House were told to stop packing and stand by indefinitely, it definitely makes me give pause.
 
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The process with the Secret Service has already started! Under normal circumstances I would agree that this goes nowhere however with the braking announcement that the US Attorney in Northern GA just suddenly resigned and all my buddies who work at the White House were told to stop packing and stand by indefinitely.
It hasn't already started, unless you consider the threat, already started.

You all keep getting fooled by these 'orders' to stop packing, that come from Trump.

That's ok though, in a week or two these orders to stop packing will cease.
Your buddies better be good at rushed packing.
 
Time to repair the system, the honor system no longer works.

1. No more voter registration on just a post card. Verify, validate, id.

2. Purge the roll of the dead and people who move.

3. Registration cut off x days before the election for validation.

4. No day of registration.

5. Mail in ballots must be received by midnight on election day.

6. Voting process/machines must be approved by both parties and the same in every state for federal elections

7. Better chain of evidence for ballot boxes and the ballots.

8. Each mail in ballot must be requested by the voter a n d signed by the voter. Voting in ie nursing homes must be observed by both parties and noted on the ballot.
I’ll agree to those items if I can add one. You have to take a test to verify that you have the knowledge and understanding of history, civics and domestic / foreign events to make an educated decision regarding your vote. Having one person vote for something detrimental to society without understanding why their vote is detrimental is just as bad as having one dead person vote. Neither should be voting.
 
I’ll agree to those items if I can add one. You have to take a test to verify that you have the knowledge and understanding of history, civics and domestic / foreign events to make an educated decision regarding your vote. Having one person vote for something detrimental to society without understanding why their vote is detrimental is just as bad as having one dead person vote. Neither should be voting.
Doesn't that invalidate the list entirely?
 
Doesn't that invalidate the list entirely?
If we want to optimize the quality of the results in our elections, it wouldn’t be insure that all votes carry equal weight, but also that all votes are made by people who are capable of making important decisions. To take this to an extreme, at the moment, a mentally disabled person who can’t handle much more than collecting trays at McDonald’s has the same weight of vote as you do on who should be controlling the world’s most powerful military its a vast array of nuclear weapons as well as who can best handle a complex domestic and international economy.

There is something flawed in that. The problem is... where do you draw the line? How mentally capable do you need to be to make those kinds of decisions?
 
Data has supported the fact that inhibitions to voting (making voting more difficult) lessens turnout. That’s the exact reason that Republicans have supported ID laws because they want to suppress turnout. (And we’ve seen the results when they’re not as successful in suppressing turnout this year)

It’s basically because you’re intentionally putting hurdles in the system that will keep out people who shouldn’t be voting but ones that legitimate voters will have to jump over too... and the fact that their votes count for so little in the grand scheme of things will detract from their willingness to jump over all of your hurdles in all but the most contentious election cycles.... so you end up with a revolving cast of mediocre to subpar elected officials chosen by those folks who have had the fewest hurdles placed in front of them.
 
Data has supported the fact that inhibitions to voting (making voting more difficult) lessens turnout. That’s the exact reason that Republicans have supported ID laws because they want to suppress turnout. (And we’ve seen the results when they’re not as successful in suppressing turnout this year)

It’s basically because you’re intentionally putting hurdles in the system that will keep out people who shouldn’t be voting but ones that legitimate voters will have to jump over too... and the fact that their votes count for so little in the grand scheme of things will detract from their willingness to jump over all of your hurdles in all but the most contentious election cycles.... so you end up with a revolving cast of mediocre to subpar elected officials chosen by those folks who have had the fewest hurdles placed in front of them.
Usiing this post you might not be qualified to vote.

Who is going to write the test? Will it be essay or multiple choice. Literacy test were outlawed in the 19th Century. What if your test is read by someone with values that conflict with yours and you only get partial credit.

If someone "fails" the test can they take it again?

This is pie in the sky liberalism at its worse. Liberals are supposedly more inclusive but this creates a cast who can't vote. If you can't vote you shouldn't have to pay taxes. Where was Alexander Hamilton from and what effect does that have on knowing the roads are bad?

The dullered who dumps trays at McD might know more about the minimum wage than Einstein.
 
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If we want to optimize the quality of the results in our elections, it wouldn’t be insure that all votes carry equal weight, but also that all votes are made by people who are capable of making important decisions. To take this to an extreme, at the moment, a mentally disabled person who can’t handle much more than collecting trays at McDonald’s has the same weight of vote as you do on who should be controlling the world’s most powerful military its a vast array of nuclear weapons as well as who can best handle a complex domestic and international economy.

There is something flawed in that. The problem is... where do you draw the line? How mentally capable do you need to be to make those kinds of decisions?
Yes you're talking about several variations on a theme in which those that rule and those that vote on those that rule, all fit within similar dictates. A Democratic Meritocracy, Geniocracy, Timocracy, Noocracy, etc., or some combination of the above. All depending on how you wish to define your requirements for running for office, and voting on those running for office. All of those have that single defining flaw that you talk about, where do you draw the line, and who determines whether you are over or under the line.(Everything isn't as black & white as the originator of those rules likes to thinks.)

The problem is you are making it way too complex. I was only saying that if someone did not have that civic knowledge and understanding you discuss, then wouldn't they not only not vote, but you logically wouldn't let them make up a list of voting system repairs.
 
Meanwhile, Trump is recorded on the phone with the Secretary of State of Georgia trying to pilfer a change of the votes in that state. Trump is literally the most corrupt official that has ever touched the presidency by a large margin. Worse than Kennedy or Nixon, worse than Johnson, worse than Clinton.
You left Reagan off that list. Iran-Contra, until Trump, was the worse abuse of power and corruption since Reconstruction and the days of Andrew Johnson. Had it occurred in the digital age, Reagan, Bush, Sr. and half the Dept. of Defense would have gone down. There's no way a Lt. Colonel is making any of those decisions on his own, and to my knowledge he was the highest ranking official to have been taken down.
 
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