Wuhan

[TUMe]

Let's get in our time machine and go back to the late Winter/early Spring of 2020.

Dr. Fauci was saying perhaps two years or more for a vaccine. Wash your hands a lot and Masks don't work. People were dieing at an increasing rate. The Trumps were in the hospital one weekend and so was many from the general population. They got better on some existing medicines, some of which were not snake oil but approved for other medical problems.

Oh, and hay...it wasn't two or more years before a working vaccine was found and approved under emergency status in late December of 2020...the same year testing to qualify it for use. Pfizer. Moderma was close on it's heals. I know Biden says that there was no vaccine when he was sworn in, but he is mentally challenged. (He called Putin President Trump)

By the way Trump is still on my S list for Jan 6 and will always be.

 

[lawpoke87]

Fauci both publicly and in private emails to colleagues:

1). There is no significant threat from Covid
2). Masks don’t work. I actually agree with this statement for the most part due to science (which Fauci stated and results from non mask states compared to mask states). Fauci later somehow discovers new science or the virus changed size, etc..)
3). Vaccine two years away.

I’m not suggesting the guy be strung up. I am suggesting the Fauci live put forth by many is misplaced. Especially given his early dismissal of the threat.

 

[aTUfan]

Fauchi and cuomo were the media darlings and both got it wrong.
no wonder trump didn't listen to this guy.

 

[watu05]

I agree. He’s an amateur politician who confuses professional competence in one’s field with leadership ability.

He wasn't supposed to be the leader; he's was pushed into filling a leadership vacuum created by the President..

Another good deed gets punished.

Michael Lewis's book" The Premonition is highly recommended.

 

[watu05]

Let's get in our time machine and go back to the late Winter/early Spring of 2020.

Dr. Fauci was saying perhaps two years or more for a vaccine. Wash your hands a lot and Masks don't work. People were dieing at an increasing rate. The Trumps were in the hospital one weekend and so was many from the general population. They got better on some existing medicines, some of which were not snake oil but approved for other medical problems.

Oh, and hay...it wasn't two or more years before a working vaccine was found and approved under emergency status in late December of 2020...the same year testing to qualify it for use. Pfizer. Moderma was close on it's heals. I know Biden says that there was no vaccine when he was sworn in, but he is mentally challenged. (He called Putin President Trump)

By the way Trump is still on my S list for Jan 6 and will always be.

Fauci was providing what the medical community knew at the time. What would you have told him to do when dealing with a novel virus using the best medical knowledge available at the time and modifying the advice as the knowledge and science evolved?

How does you compare Biden's occasional errors with Trump's daily documented lies?

 

[URedskin54]

Fauci was providing what the medical community knew at the time. What would you have told him to do when dealing with a novel virus using the best medical knowledge available at the time and modifying the advice as the knowledge and science evolved?

How does you compare Biden's occasional errors with Trump's daily documented lies?

He has come out publicly and admitted that he misled about the effectiveness of masks early on for our own good (or something). If you can't come to terms with the man's own admitted mendacities then I don't know what to tell you.

And beyond that, whatever you think of pros/cons of telling "noble lies", if you're going to do it you can't ever come out and tell people you lied to them. Forget the arrogance of it, you're not just destroying trust in yourself, you're hurting others in your profession as well.

Opinion | Op-Ed: Why Did Fauci Move the Herd Immunity Goal Posts?

Scientists play a dangerous game when they tailor factual statements to promote policy goals

www.medpagetoday.com

 

[aTUfan]

He has come out publicly and admitted that he misled about the effectiveness of masks early on for our own good (or something). If you can't come to terms with the man's own admitted mendacities then I don't know what to tell you.

And beyond that, whatever you think of pros/cons of telling "noble lies", if you're going to do it you can't ever come out and tell people you lied to them. Forget the arrogance of it, you're not just destroying trust in yourself, you're hurting others in your profession as well.

Opinion | Op-Ed: Why Did Fauci Move the Herd Immunity Goal Posts?

Scientists play a dangerous game when they tailor factual statements to promote policy goals

www.medpagetoday.com

biden, bho, . . . are just as guilty of some whoppers. the difference is msm just ignores them, under reports them or rationalize them. msm mission was anti trump 24/7. biden gets a pass.

 

[astonmartin708]

biden, bho, . . . are just as guilty of some whoppers. the difference is msm just ignores them, under reports them or rationalize them. msm mission was anti trump 24/7. biden gets a pass.

This is where you are wrong.

 

[HuffyCane]

He wasn't supposed to be the leader; he's was pushed into filling a leadership vacuum created by the President..

Another good deed gets punished.

Michael Lewis's book" The Premonition is highly recommended.

Meh. The Left from the start saw a campaign issue. Who ever was President would have been marginalized. It was just easier because he wasn’t a world respected doctor. Birx could have been President and would have been marginalized by Fauci or someone else who would have been used by the Left to question government policy and stroke fear for political gain. We saw that with Jones in Florida. She had no credentials, no credibility and pending criminal and civil stalking charges but she is/was trotted out as an expert to undermine DeSantis’ clear successes in handling a situation few if anyone could unpack properly given CoVid’s uncertainty and Florida’s unique demands. We also saw it with Vice President Pence. A former Governor with experience containing a pandemic in his state was presented as having no credentials while being smeared for his faith by the left and their friends and paid stooges on TV. He was somehow unqualified to coordinate governors on the pandemic as they struggled to get what they needed from the various agencies. Meanwhile, Fauci’s hiring an agent and getting on TV.

 

[aTUfan]

This is where you are wrong.

you only know about the person via the presentation you see on msm.

 

[watu05]

Meh. The Left from the start saw a campaign issue.

And Trump didn't? It was the perfect set up for him to supply the leadership and rally the country when we needed it.
Even if the 'left' saw it as a campaign issue, that 's has nothing to do with Fauci's performance. It might, however, explain why the right is trying to blame him for Trump's errors.

 

[astonmartin708]

you only know about the person via the presentation you see on msm.

What Mainstream media? Please tell me, what MSM am I watching or reading?

 

[watu05]

What Mainstream media? Please tell me, what MSM am I watching or reading?

Better yet, what is the media or news sources that he trusts? The contrast should be enlightening.

 

[HuffyCane]

And Trump didn't? It was the perfect set up for him to supply the leadership and rally the country when we needed it.
Even if the 'left' saw it as a campaign issue, that 's has nothing to do with Fauci's performance. It might, however, explain why the right is trying to blame him for Trump's errors.

If Trump was politicking the virus, he would have released the vaccine a week before the election, not a week after. He’d also be taking a victory lap.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

If Trump was politicking the virus, he would have released the vaccine a week before the election, not a week after. He’d also be taking a victory lap.

I think if those in charge of the vaccine would have let him, he would have released it before the election. There are some civilian scientists who are beyond his scope of control, even as president.

 

[watu05]

I think if those in charge of the vaccine would have let him, he would have released it before the election. There are some civilian scientists who are beyond his scope of control, even as president.

Exactly. The FDA has a set procedure that is designed to isolate it from both political and big pharma pressures. Pfizer didn't take Warp Speed money to further isolate itself from political interference, yet its vaccine was the first approved.

Trump was politicizing the vaccine's availability big time before the election.

 

[lawpoke87]

Exactly. The FDA has a set procedure that is designed to isolate it from both political and big pharma pressures. Pfizer didn't take Warp Speed money to further isolate itself from political interference, yet its vaccine was the first approved.

Trump was politicizing the vaccine's availability big time before the election.

Not exactly true. Pfizer signed a contract with the Fed’s in July 2020 which guaranteed Pfizer $2B in funds from the Fed in exchange for its vaccines. Those federal funds were of coursed paid to Pfizer. So largely semantics of the timing of when these companies received their federal money.

 

[aTUfan]

And Trump didn't? It was the perfect set up for him to supply the leadership and rally the country when we needed it.
Even if the 'left' saw it as a campaign issue, that 's has nothing to do with Fauci's performance. It might, however, explain why the right is trying to blame him for Trump's errors.

because fauch was the expert

 

[TUMe]

Okay, so BHO and Biden (Hilary too) didn't lie?

Benghazi was cause by a video. Finally BHO admited finally that wasn't the cause. But then went to the UN and repeated the lie and contradicted what he had said to the American people. But BHO was designated as a good guy so it was okay. Those were situational lies. Lie to Americans, tell the truth to the Americans, then lie to the UN. Tell what those hearing the message want to hear.

You can keep your doctor, yadda yadda yadda. Ancient history, but I'm not the one who brought up the supposed fact that Barry and Joey spoke the truth.

 

[watu05]

Okay, so BHO and Biden (Hilary too) didn't lie?

Benghazi was cause by a video. Finally BHO admited finally that wasn't the cause. But then went to the UN and repeated the lie and contradicted what he had said to the American people. But BHO was designated as a good guy so it was okay. Those were situational lies. Lie to Americans, tell the truth to the Americans, then lie to the UN. Tell what those hearing the message want to hear.

You can keep your doctor, yadda yadda yadda. Ancient history, but I'm not the one who brought up the supposed fact that Barry and Joey spoke the truth.

An excellent example of trying to make Trump look like the norm in American politics. No wonder two thirds of Republicans no longer believe in our elections. Vlad is having a very good year.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/politics/poll-66-republicans-don’t-think-biden’s-election-win-was-legitimate-186254

 

[TUMe]

An excellent example of trying to make Trump look like the norm in American politics. No wonder two thirds of Republicans no longer believe in our elections. Vlad is having a very good year.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/politics/poll-66-republicans-don’t-think-biden’s-election-win-was-legitimate-186254

An excellent job of changing the subject.

I didn't say or imply Trump was the normal. You said Obama was the normal and Biden. So now you are floating your own standard of normal. You dodge facts.

I believe Biden's election was real. I'm not taking up for Trump. I'm taking up for truth whether it is Trump or Obama that is munipulating it. Biden dealling with "Vlad" is like me playing a game of chess with a world champion chess player.

Facts have not been outlawed and are not dependant on who is telling them and where. Sorry to see the old WATU back. I was hoping you came back a little more honest. At no point in my post did I defend Trump. You brought Obama into this and he is also a liar. He lied to America or he lied to the UN. But that is okay becausee he is a liberal Democrat.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

An excellent job of changing the subject.

I didn't say or imply Trump was the normal. You said Obama was the normal and Biden. So now you are floating your own standard of normal. You dodge facts.

I believe Biden's election was real. I'm not taking up for Trump. I'm taking up for truth whether it is Trump or Obama that is munipulating it. Biden dealling with "Vlad" is like me playing a game of chess with a world champion chess player.

Facts have not been outlawed and are not dependant on who is telling them and where. Sorry to see the old WATU back. I was hoping you came back a little more honest. At no point in my post did I defend Trump. You brought Obama into this and he is also a liar. He lied to America or he lied to the UN. But that is okay becausee he is a liberal Democrat.

Reagan lied, Clinton lied, Bush lied, Obama lied, Biden probably lied.(Nixon certainly lied.) Just about every politician lies at one point or another. Lying has probably been there with almost every politician who has ever carried the office. The only recent one who might have been less guilty of deception would have been Carter. We all know how that turned out. It comes down to what they lied about, how much damage they did with the lie, and how much good they did aside from the lie, while they were in office. But no one has been a pathological liar like Trump.

 

[watu05]

An excellent job of changing the subject.

I didn't say or imply Trump was the normal. You said Obama was the normal and Biden. So now you are floating your own standard of normal. You dodge facts.

I believe Biden's election was real. I'm not taking up for Trump. I'm taking up for truth whether it is Trump or Obama that is munipulating it. Biden dealling with "Vlad" is like me playing a game of chess with a world champion chess player.

Facts have not been outlawed and are not dependant on who is telling them and where. Sorry to see the old WATU back. I was hoping you came back a little more honest. At no point in my post did I defend Trump. You brought Obama into this and he is also a liar. He lied to America or he lied to the UN. But that is okay becausee he is a liberal Democrat.

Equating Trump’s dishonesty, corruption and lack of leadership with any of the presidents and officials cited in your posts (regardless of party) is silly, particularly in light of his continued attacks on our electoral system. If the electorate can’t tell the difference, the US is in a world of hurt.
BTW wasn’t it your posts that brought all Democrats and Obama into it?
My apologies for hitting a nerve.

 

[watu05]

Equating Trump’s dishonesty, corruption and lack of leadership with any of the presidents and officials cited in your posts (regardless of party) is silly, particularly in light of his continued attacks on our electoral system. If the electorate can’t tell the difference, the US is in a world of hurt.
BTW wasn’t it your posts that brought all Democrats and Obama into it?
My apologies for hitting a nerve.

 

[HuffyCane]

Exactly. The FDA has a set procedure that is designed to isolate it from both political and big pharma pressures. Pfizer didn't take Warp Speed money to further isolate itself from political interference, yet its vaccine was the first approved.

Trump was politicizing the vaccine's availability big time before the election.

Not exactly true. It’s true from the standpoint you are right. But not true in terms of application in a real world pandemic.

Nearly all of those procedures can be suspended during a state of emergency according to the procedures themselves. More over, Title 42 vests in the Secretary broad powers to control pandemics including suspending or superseding federal and state laws to control the pandemic. This includes internal ethics procedures that don’t even meet the definition of regulations. Finally, the President is vested with broad national security powers that trump all of that.

What’s the remedy? Sue? Please let me defend that lawsuit.

He could have released it. They didn’t. Likely for two reasons. First, they thought they were going to win and nearly did. There was too much risk trotting that stuff out early and it have no effect or bad effects as we’ve seen other vaccines have elsewhere. That could have tanked the polls just enough to take victory into the defeat zone. Second, and it’s a huge guess, it’s not something Trump did himself. His people came up with Warp Speed something that will likely be looked upon very kindly by historians but it’s not a personal achievement. Trump didn’t want to win if it wasn’t about reaffirming it was him they were voting for not stuff he did or others did for him.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Not exactly true. It’s true from the standpoint you are right. But not true in terms of application in a real world pandemic.

Nearly all of those procedures can be suspended during a state of emergency according to the procedures themselves. More over, Title 42 vests in the Secretary broad powers to control pandemics including suspending or superseding federal and state laws to control the pandemic. This includes internal ethics procedures that don’t even meet the definition of regulations. Finally, the President is vested with broad national security powers that trump all of that.

What’s the remedy? Sue? Please let me defend that lawsuit.

He could have released it. They didn’t. Likely for two reasons. First, they thought they were going to win and nearly did. There was too much risk trotting that stuff out early and it have no effect or bad effects as we’ve seen other vaccines have elsewhere. That could have tanked the polls just enough to take victory into the defeat zone. Second, and it’s a huge guess, it’s not something Trump did himself. His people came up with Warp Speed something that will likely be looked upon very kindly by historians but it’s not a personal achievement. Trump didn’t want to win if it wasn’t about reaffirming it was him they were voting for not stuff he did or others did for him.

I don't buy two of your three reasons. If it was somebody else's doing, he would've coopted responsibility for it and conned himself into believing himself and/or figured everybody else would believe it if he said it long enough.

He wouldn't leave it to chance that he would win, and trust that feeling. He has lost enough, (though he won't admit it) that he doesn't rely on him winning fair and square. He has cooked the books on winning enough for me to not buy that one either.

Maybe he listened to advisers that warned him. The possible immediate reaction of the vaccine having a not positive, or a negative effect? Him not having enough time to recover from that? That I'll go for.

I'd also go for option D. He and/or his advisors felt like making that drastic move would be plastered all over the news cycle. And that might make him appear weak, like he thought he would lose if he didn't shove the vaccine out immediately and bask in the election afterglow.

 

[TUMe]

You are doing it again, WA. The big three (Obama, Biden, and Hillary) were all knee deep in lies. It wasn't a planned thing at Bengazi, it spontaneous. Okay, it was planned. But at the UN it was in reponse to Egypt's reaction to a video.

Obama told the crowd in each case what they wanted to hear. When you tell different stories to different people that is a lie. People died, but he was a liberal Democrat so that was off limits. They asked for more troops but it was denied. Don't bring Obama in to your post if you don't want to have the crap he pulled brought into the reponse. One has to go back into history because you can't go forward.

Trump's offenses were worse but Obama had blood on his hands as well.

 

[URedskin54]

I doubt any president has ever been as prolific a liar as Trump was. Bullsh!tting is just built into his DNA. But when it comes to lying about big things that impact people he wasn’t really unique there.

 

[astonmartin708]

I doubt any president has ever been as prolific a liar as Trump was. Bullsh!tting is just built into his DNA. But when it comes to lying about big things that impact people he wasn’t really unique there.

His lies impacted more people in a more tragically profound way than any before him. Clinton lied about getting a BJ. That’s not a lie that actually effects anyone other than his wife. Obama’s Benghazi lie you are trying to attribute to him was after the event. It didn’t matter. It didn’t cause more people to die. His ‘keep your doctor’ might have had a financial impact on people, but it didn’t have a mortal one in most cases. Other than Trump, I don’t think we’ve had a president since Johnson who’s lies caused many civilians to die. (At least in Johnson’s case they were draftees and he was actually trying to fight off communism)

 

[URedskin54]

His lies impacted more people in a more tragically profound way than any before him. Clinton lied about getting a BJ. That’s not a lie that actually effects anyone other than his wife. Obama’s Benghazi lie you are trying to attribute to him was after the event. It didn’t matter. It didn’t cause more people to die. His ‘keep your doctor’ might have had a financial impact on people, but it didn’t have a mortal one in most cases. Other than Trump, I don’t think we’ve had a president since Johnson who’s lies caused many civilians to die. (At least in Johnson’s case they were draftees and he was actually trying to fight off communism)

Where did you see I said something about Benghazi?

 

[TUMe]

His lies impacted more people in a more tragically profound way than any before him. Clinton lied about getting a BJ. That’s not a lie that actually effects anyone other than his wife. Obama’s Benghazi lie you are trying to attribute to him was after the event. It didn’t matter. It didn’t cause more people to die. His ‘keep your doctor’ might have had a financial impact on people, but it didn’t have a mortal one in most cases. Other than Trump, I don’t think we’ve had a president since Johnson who’s lies caused many civilians to die. (At least in Johnson’s case they were draftees and he was actually trying to fight off communism)

You are correct about lies that came latter. But they were lies about things that happened in realtime. People at the scene were asking for help in realtime but the help which could have done some good was standing by. His lies were a cover-up. There was a tug of war between the military and the CIA.

Yes, LBJ's lies were more fruitless. The lies Obama made were to cover up his own inaction and blame it on videoes and a second set to placate the Arab world. Draftees are also people.

 

[aTUfan]

I doubt any president has ever been as prolific a liar as Trump was. Bullsh!tting is just built into his DNA. But when it comes to lying about big things that impact people he wasn’t really unique there.

liar? based on what/who? who fact checks the fact checker?

 

[Gmoney4WW]

 

[astonmartin708]

You are correct about lies that came latter. But they were lies about things that happened in realtime. People at the scene were asking for help in realtime but the help which could have done some good was standing by. His lies were a cover-up. There was a tug of war between the military and the CIA.

Yes, LBJ's lies were more fruitless. The lies Obama made were to cover up his own inaction and blame it on videoes and a second set to placate the Arab world. Draftees are also people.

I wasn't saying that draftees weren't people. I just think they're part of a grey area between civilian deaths and military deaths. They're not quite civilians, but they're certainly not professional soldiers either. Presidents make mistakes and should be allowed to make mistakes to some degree, and sometimes those mistakes can result in deaths. I think there should be a distinction between the degree of culpability they assume with their decisions and the outcomes from those decisions.

I don't think the Obama administration's actions (or inactions) surrounding Benghazi can be treated much differently from security mistakes that were made by the Bush administration prior to 9/11. They could have done things, but they didn't. Maybe Obama was worried about losing a seal team whilst trying to save the embassy officials much like Jimmy Carter did when he tried to rescue the Iranian hostages. Bush probably didn't want to upset the Saudi Arabians by taking immediate action against a member of one of their prominent families when he got the report 30+ days before 9/11 that Bin Laden was planning terrorist attacks via planes.

Obama's decision was made regarding career foreign servants who take up the service knowing that it can inherently be dangerous. (Especially in places like Libya) . It was tragic, and the people that died should be remembered for the lives they gave in service to their country.

By contrast Trump and Johnson's lies had effects on many many people who didn't volunteer to risk their lives for the strategic US cause. In Johnson's case, he continued the charade long after the people dying for his failed foreign policy (or their grieving families) begged him to stop. In Trump's case he lied for his own personal benefit and he did largely in hopes that it would rally support for his re-election.

 

[watu05]

Not exactly true. It’s true from the standpoint you are right. But not true in terms of application in a real world pandemic.

Nearly all of those procedures can be suspended during a state of emergency according to the procedures themselves. More over, Title 42 vests in the Secretary broad powers to control pandemics including suspending or superseding federal and state laws to control the pandemic. This includes internal ethics procedures that don’t even meet the definition of regulations. Finally, the President is vested with broad national security powers that trump all of that.

What’s the remedy? Sue? Please let me defend that lawsuit.

He could have released it. They didn’t. Likely for two reasons. First, they thought they were going to win and nearly did. There was too much risk trotting that stuff out early and it have no effect or bad effects as we’ve seen other vaccines have elsewhere. That could have tanked the polls just enough to take victory into the defeat zone. Second, and it’s a huge guess, it’s not something Trump did himself. His people came up with Warp Speed something that will likely be looked upon very kindly by historians but it’s not a personal achievement. Trump didn’t want to win if it wasn’t about reaffirming it was him they were voting for not stuff he did or others did for him.

Do your think anyone would have taken the vaccine under those conditions? People won't still take shots even after completing the full gamut of test required for emergency use. The uproar over short circuiting the emergency evaluation system would have been deafening and a political loser for Trump. Not an option.

 

[watu05]

Aussie scientist who was the only foreign scientist working at Wuhan lab when Covid virus was detected speaks out. Bloomberg article. (corrected link)

 

[TUMe]

Aussie scientist who was the only foreign scientist working at Wuhan lab when Covid virus was detected speaks out. Bloomberg article. (corrected link)

So they gave her a roster of all employes?

 

[lawpoke87]

Skeptical that the Chinese would share information or provide full disclosure to the only foreigner working at the site. Just not the Chinese way as we’ve seen from their efforts to prevent any type of meaningful investigation into this matter.

 

[HuffyCane]

Skeptical that the Chinese would share information or provide full disclosure to the only foreigner working at the site. Just not the Chinese way as we’ve seen from their efforts to prevent any type of meaningful investigation into this matter.

There’s a couple of good take downs on her credibility from fellow scientists out there.

 

[HuffyCane]

Dripity drip drip

https://www.technologyreview.com/20...bat-virus-engineering-links-america-to-wuhan/