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Thoughts on DOGE?

lawpoke87

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Assume most of us believe an audit of our over $6T spending is long overdue. I also assume my friends on the left hate the fact that it’s being undertaken by President Musk.

Seems like one of the more consequential things to occur in federal government in years…for better or worse.

Thoughts?
 
Certainly need a hard look at unnecessary government spending. Seems to be a lot of wasted money spent yearly by every administration for decades.
Not sure it's off to a planned process. Seems to be more politically driven than anything.
I'm all for eliminating unnecessary spending with some due diligence for find better ways of spending money.
We do need debt reduction and eliminating unnecessary spending is a good start.
 
Musk and Trump have too many of their own interests in the way, for it to be a beneficial audit that is good for the public.
 
Musk and Trump have too many of their own interests in the way, for it to be a beneficial audit that is good for the public.
Possibly. However our elected officials were never going to clean up spending as a lot of them are being financially benefitted by the federal bureaucracy. I’m a bit amazed we’ve never had an audit by a non governmental entity of federal government spending. This is much needed imo. Guess the proof of whether it’s beneficial or not will be the results of what is uncovered
 
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Possibly. However our elected officials were never going to clean up spending as a lot of them are being financially benefitted by the federal bureaucracy. I’m a bit amazed we’ve never had an audit by a non governmental entity of federal government spending. This is much needed imo. Guess the proof of whether it’s beneficial or not will be the results of what is uncovered
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What is uncovered and beneficial, but disliked by Trump & Musk or is against their interests will mark the bad & will be eliminated if at all possible. What's uncovered which is beneficial for the country's interests and in Trump & Musks interests will mark the good. What waste is covered up because it is in the interests of Trump & Musk will be quite prevalent. You have to realize they will have their foot on this audit in so many ways. When it's all said & done, I don't think the good will outweigh the bad. That's not the way it works when the two people on top of Doge match as poorly with the country's interests. They are both not good men in any sense of the word IMO.

This confidential release of Musks interests will not be helpful.
 
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What is uncovered and beneficial, but disliked by Trump & Musk or is against their interests will mark the bad & will be eliminated if at all possible. What's uncovered which is beneficial for the country's interests and in Trump & Musks interests will mark the good. What waste is covered up because it is in the interests of Trump & Musk will be quite prevalent. You have to realize they will have their foot on this audit in so many ways. When it's all said & done, I don't think the good will outweigh the bad. That's not the way it works when the two people on top of Doge match as poorly with the country's interests. They are both not good men in any sense of the word IMO.

This confidential release of Musks interests will not be helpful.
Will you still feel the same way if hundreds of billions of dollars of waste and fraud are discovered ?
 
Will you still feel the same way if hundreds of billions of dollars of waste and fraud are discovered ?
Not if they are offset by hundreds of billions of dollars of good expenditures that are eliminated as well. You are not considering the other side of the coin. And I don't think they will find that much waste that they can eliminate without bad consequences that they ignore or are not aware of.
 
Not if they are offset by hundreds of billions of dollars of good expenditures that are eliminated as well. You are not considering the other side of the coin. And I don't think they will find that much waste that they can eliminate without bad consequences that they ignore or are not aware of.
I’ve been against new spending initiatives for the better part of the last 20 years. That doesn’t change based on whose in the White House
 
I’ve been against new spending initiatives for the better part of the last 20 years. That doesn’t change based on whose in the White House
What? We are not talking bout new spending initiatives, we are talking about expenditures that have been there for years, decades, etc., and are being eliminated. Some should be, and some should not. What does that have to do with new expenditures? I am referring to them eliminating an expenditure that has other consequences than what they think there are. Or those that they are against because it is against their interests or their belief system, or their constituents belief system.(Maga) Many expenses are good expense no matter what they think or what their interests are. That doesn't stop them from eliminating them.

For instance they just eliminated the Consumer Protection Bureau completely. There was some beneficial programs in that bureau. It should not have been eliminated completely. Now some watch dogs don't exist any longer. It allows Musk to operate more freely, and it's bad for the general public. They should have eliminated some programs and functions of the bureau, but not eliminated it altogether. To get hundreds of billions of dollars of savings they would have to eliminate at least 250 agencies like this agency. It's total budget was approx. 800M.

Or are you defining new spending initiatives as the annual discretionary spending for programs that have been in existence sometimes for many decades. If so, are you completely against discretionary spending altogether and think all discretionary spending should be eliminated completely? I have to think that isn't what you were saying.

Just because you are against some discretionary spending, doesn't mean you go after any and all or even most discretionary spending simply because it is discretionary. That really should have very little to do with whether it is viable to waste. There is just as much waste in the military, and many other sectors of non discretionary spending.
 
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What? We are not talking bout new spending initiatives, we are talking about expenditures that have been there for years, decades, etc., and are being eliminated. Some should be, and some should not. What does that have to do with new expenditures? I am referring to them eliminating an expenditure that has other consequences than what they think there are. Or those that they are against because it is against their interests or their belief system, or their constituents belief system.(Maga) Many expenses good expense no matter what they think or what their interests are. That doesn't stop them from eliminating them.

For instance they just eliminated the Consumer Protection Bureau completely. There was some beneficial programs in that bureau. It should not have been eliminated completely. Now some watch dogs don't exist any longer. It allows Musk to operate more freely, and it's bad for the general public. They should have eliminated some programs and functions of the bureau, but not eliminated it altogether. To get hundreds of billions of dollars of savings they would have to eliminate at least 250 agencies like this agency. It's total budget was approx. 800M.

Or are you defining new spending initiatives as the annual discretionary spending for programs that have been in existence sometimes for many decades. If so, are you completely against discretionary spending altogether and think all discretionary spending should be eliminated completely? I have to think that isn't what you were saying.

Just because you are against some discretionary spending, doesn't mean you go after any and all or even most discretionary spending simply because it is discretionary. That really should have very little to do with whether it is viable to waste. There is just as much waste in the military, and many other sectors of non discretionary spending.
Ahhh Misread your post. My apologies.

I work with the CFPB extensively. It’s the reason seller and buyers can no longer close real estate transactions where the buyer is borrowing funds for the purchase. It’s silly. I’m not against all of their policies but the creation of a new bureaucratic agency wasn’t necessary imo. I wouldn’t be sad to see it go. Consolidate and roll the function into another agency.

I’ll wait and see what spending is eliminated. We’re $37T in debt. We need spending cut and this is likely the only way any significant cuts can be made. Will some beneficial programs be eliminated….maybe. If we want to keep them we need to find revenue sources to fund the same. Our current deficits are not sustainable

The fact we are giving $150M a year to Norway to care for their immigrants should be proof enough that drastic changes needed to be made to our expenditures
 
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Ahhh Misread your post. My apologies.

I work with the CFPB extensively. It’s the reason seller and buyers can no longer close real estate transactions where the buyer is borrowing funds for the purchase. It’s silly. I’m not against all of their policies but the creation of a new bureaucratic agency wasn’t necessary imo. I wouldn’t be sad to see it go. Consolidate and roll the function into another agency.

I’ll wait and see what spending is eliminated. We’re $37T in debt. We need spending cut and this is likely the only way any significant cuts can be made. Will some beneficial programs be eliminated….maybe. If we want to keep them we need to find revenue sources to fund the same. Our current deficits are not sustainable

The fact we are giving $150M a year to Norway to care for their immigrants should be proof enough that drastic changes needed to be made to our expenditures

You can eliminate a lot of Norway type of spending and it will be minute. If you eliminate the entire foreign aid spending budget you only eliminate .013% of our budget. I would say you are only going to find 20% at the very most that should be eliminated. So you are concerning your self with .0026% of our budget. You/Trump/Musk are nickel and diming us to death with things that will have consequences. The big items are the ones we can't, don't want to, and will not touch.(Military, SS, Medicare, etc.) They should be more careful and not going at this like a bull in a china closet. This has worked for Musk in business, but it doesn't work that way on a macro scale for government. The US govt is macro to Musks micro business interests.
 
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You can eliminate a lot of Norway type of spending and it will be minute. If you eliminate the entire foreign aid spending budget you only eliminate .013% of our budget. I would say you are only going to find 20% at the very most that should be eliminated. So you are concerning your self with .0026% of our budget. You/Trump/Musk are nickel and diming us to death with things that will have consequences. The big items are the ones we can't, don't want to, and will not touch.(Military, SS, Medicare, etc.) They should be more careful and not going at this like a bull in a china closet. This has worked for Musk in business, but it doesn't work that way on a macro scale for government. The US govt is macro to Musks micro business interests.
The pattern on unaccountability is what is troublesome. Why are we giving a rich country with a surplus $150M a year? It’s not the amount it’s the pattern. Who is responsible ? Who is accountable ?

Why is FEMA still paying millions for hotel rooms in NYC….we know why btw. It’s just reckless spending with no oversight from appearances. Even if the total savings in the end only amount to a tens of billions of dollars it is clear changes need to be made.

Let’s circle back when the total cuts are finished and discuss how effective the audits were by numbers. They are certainly pointing out some serious accountability issues thus far.
 
Ahhh Misread your post. My apologies.

I work with the CFPB extensively. It’s the reason seller and buyers can no longer close real estate transactions where the buyer is borrowing funds for the purchase. It’s silly. I’m not against all of their policies but the creation of a new bureaucratic agency wasn’t necessary imo. I wouldn’t be sad to see it go. Consolidate and roll the function into another agency.

I’ll wait and see what spending is eliminated. We’re $37T in debt. We need spending cut and this is likely the only way any significant cuts can be made. Will some beneficial programs be eliminated….maybe. If we want to keep them we need to find revenue sources to fund the same. Our current deficits are not sustainable

The fact we are giving $150M a year to Norway to care for their immigrants should be proof enough that drastic changes needed to be made to our expenditures
If you won’t fix your major expenditures, eliminating small expenditures will have zero impact regardless of if they are frugal or wasteful. I hate Dave Ramsey, but this is the point he would tell people to sell the car with the astronomical monthly payment before cancelling their Hulu subscription.

It’s more about public perception. People judge your expenditures as ‘wasteful’ and they might be… but they don’t help you in the grand scheme of things.

The only way to actually fix things is to work diligently to bring down healthcare costs. Period. You can nickel and dime other miniature wasteful programs all you want and it won’t make any difference.
 
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The pattern on unaccountability is what is troublesome. Why are we giving a rich country with a surplus $150M a year? It’s not the amount it’s the pattern. Who is responsible ? Who is accountable ?

Why is FEMA still paying millions for hotel rooms in NYC….we know why btw. It’s just reckless spending with no oversight from appearances. Even if the total savings in the end only amount to a tens of billions of dollars it is clear changes need to be made.

Let’s circle back when the total cuts are finished and discuss how effective the audits were by numbers. They are certainly pointing out some serious accountability issues thus far.
Who cares? You’re blocking and tackling wastefulness in the wrong order. Get your priorities straight.

P.S. Cutting all of this wasteful spending and then giving money back to rich folks via tax breaks doesn’t actually fix the problem… it’s just a different kind of spending. You still have to pay off the debt even when you’ve cut up the credit card. You don’t just get to quit earning an income because you’ve stopped some of your spending. This is all a show for billionaires to keep more of their money and have less liability.
 
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Interactions like this make me think that Elon and his ‘crack team’ are completely unqualified for this task. Yes. The government uses SQL for the vast majority of its databases. Based upon his ignorant statements, he’s not even familiar with the fundamentals of databases interaction which is extremely concerning for someone overseeing a review of vast government databases. Moreover, he’s not properly digesting whatever information (be it good or bad) that his team is telling him about the records…

Maybe he’s trying to say that his team all knows something like COBOL? Which I highly doubt.
 
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why-is-this-brilliant-v0-rz242lcc5lie1.jpeg
Interactions like this make me think that Elon and his ‘crack team’ are completely unqualified for this task. Yes. The government uses SQL for the vast majority of its databases. Based upon his ignorant statements, he’s not even familiar with the fundamentals of databases interaction which is extremely concerning for someone overseeing a review of vast government databases. Moreover, he’s not properly digesting whatever information (be it good or bad) that his team is telling him about the records…

Maybe he’s trying to say that his team all knows something like COBOL? Which I highly doubt.
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Thank you for verifying what I suspected when he first started looking at this in the beginning. Whatever criteria he used to put his crack team together was the wrong criteria. Once they 'discover' stuff like this I doubt they ask the right questions either. They don't ask why it was instated this way in the first place, and whether we are technologically and/or statistically beyond that initial reason for needing it that way now. There are reasons they made these decisions that may still be valid. It takes a lot longer than this to come up with something that solves the problem of why they were put there like this in the first place, and changes it properly.

He is trying to skim over troves & troves of data and make multiple decisions like this in less than a month on multiple issues. Each issue takes months and months of study to even make a cliffs notes quick decision for each decision he's making. He's already got it in his head about several decisions and changes to make after 3 weeks of study on multiple areas of government. It's obvious now why his projects were always way behind schedule.

It's obvious he is going to make changes in government that will result in multiple disasters. He is trying to make changes based on a cliff's notes, cliff's notes knowledge of the issues. There are reasons why these decisions should take way longer than he is giving them. You can't go in and give them to 'the boss' in 1 or 2 months time just because that's how quick you and the boss want them to happen.

@lawpoke87 this is why an audit has not been done. Because a proper audit takes place over multiple terms of Presidencies. If done properly, it requires more than one team, with different criteria for each's selection.
 
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@lawpoke87 this is why an audit has not been done. Because a proper audit takes place over multiple terms of Presidencies. If done properly, it requires more than one team, with different criteria for each's selection.
I’m not buying this. A comprehensive audit with a full audit teams could have easily taken place in most of these areas in the period of 1-2 years using standard audit tools. Audits aren’t done because members of both parties financially benefit from wasteful spending. There is zero incentive for either party to clean up the money train.

Some excessive spending is easily spotted (see FEMA and AidUS). They are simply line items on an expenditure report. Audits of other areas will be much more complex and I assume may take years. I really have no idea of the time required as I’m not familiar with the computer systems being used by the agencies or the audit software being employed. While cutting unnecessary spending is vital given our yearly deficits, a change in the accountability of the federal government for its spending is even more important imo. Hopefully changes will be made in this area.
 
I’m not buying this. A comprehensive audit with a full audit teams could have easily taken place in most of these areas in the period of 1-2 years using standard audit tools. Audits aren’t done because members of both parties financially benefit from wasteful spending. There is zero incentive for either party to clean up the money train.

Some excessive spending is easily spotted (see FEMA and AidUS). They are simply line items on an expenditure report. Audits of other areas will be much more complex and I assume may take years. I really have no idea of the time required as I’m not familiar with the computer systems being used by the agencies or the audit software being employed. While cutting unnecessary spending is vital given our yearly deficits, a change in the accountability of the federal government for its spending is even more important imo. Hopefully changes will be made in this area.
Even if you are right, we would still need several auditing teams, not Doge's single auditing team of 25 young auditors. We would probably need 15 to 20 auditing teams of 15 to 20 auditors on each team.(3 to 400 auditors with senior management at minimum) to even approach what you are talking about. But I doubt that would be enough to accomplish it in 2 years.

But you are still nickel and diming the savings. Fema's total budget is less than 1/3 of the budget of US foreign aid if you consider emergency aid.(Israel & Ukraine) It is a little less than budgeted non emergency foreign aid.(Emergency aid for Israel 1/3, Emergency aid for Ukraine 1/3, Non Emergency aid for everyone else 1/3)

These types of changes in our budget won't make a dent in our federal budget. If you do all of the relatively uncostly agencies together, the necessary changes in these nickel and diming federal agencies would add up to something significant and should be done. But it won't be significant enough to come anywhere close to solving our budget problems. It might end up saving us something as large as 100 billion.

Our budget is way more than 100 billion in overages to our income. It will still be miniscule cuts and won't even approach solving our federal budget problems. We have a federal budget of 6.9 trillion, and we financed 4.9 trillion. 100B or even 500B is miniscule to 4.9 trillion. 500b is around 1/10th of a % of our annual deficit. And 500B is probably five times the cuts we could make in these nickel and diming areas of our budget due to waste.

You are worried about the wrong line items. It's the major one's you should worry about.(SS, Medicare, Military, etc)
 
Even if you are right, we would still need several auditing teams, not Doge's single auditing team of 25 young auditors. We would probably need 15 to 20 auditing teams of 15 to 20 auditors on each team.(3 to 400 auditors with senior management at minimum) to even approach what you are talking about. But I doubt that would be enough to accomplish it in 2 years.

But you are still nickel and diming the savings. Fema's total budget is less than 1/3 of the budget of US foreign aid if you consider emergency aid.(Israel & Ukraine) It is a little less than budgeted non emergency foreign aid.(Emergency aid for Israel 1/3, Emergency aid for Ukraine 1/3, Non Emergency aid for everyone else 1/3)

These types of changes in our budget won't make a dent in our federal budget. If you do all of the relatively uncostly agencies together, the necessary changes in these nickel and diming federal agencies would add up to something significant and should be done. But it won't be significant enough to come anywhere close to solving our budget problems. It might end up saving us something as large as 100 billion.

Our budget is way more than 100 billion in overages to our income. It will still be miniscule cuts and won't even approach solving our federal budget problems. We have a federal budget of 6.9 trillion, and we financed 4.9 trillion. 100B or even 500B is miniscule to 4.9 trillion. 500b is around 1/10th of a % of our annual deficit. And 500B is probably five times the cuts we could make in these nickel and diming areas of our budget due to waste.

You are worried about the wrong line items. It's the major one's you should worry about.(SS, Medicare, Military, etc)
I know exactly where the money is spent. If they don’t spend extensive time auditing SS, Medicare, Military, etc…then this entire DOGE is simply for show.

You’re correct in that it will likely take 100 if not more auditors to tackle those large agencies. That number is largely dependent as I said above on technology. I worked as a CPA - auditor for the second largest accounting firm in the world out of undergrad. So I have extensive experience but my knowledge is limited to how we did it 30 plus years ago prior to all the technological advancements. We would carry compaq computers the size of small suitcases to audit sites and all information had to be manually entered. The good old days
 
I know exactly where the money is spent. If they don’t spend extensive time auditing SS, Medicare, Military, etc…then this entire DOGE is simply for show.

You’re correct in that it will likely take 100 if not more auditors to tackle those large agencies. That number is largely dependent as I said above on technology. I worked as a CPA - auditor for the second largest accounting firm in the world out of undergrad. So I have extensive experience but my knowledge is limited to how we did it 30 plus years ago prior to all the technological advancements. We would carry compaq computers the size of small suitcases to audit sites and all information had to be manually entered. The good old days
I made a major mistake, and misread something I researched on the internet. But even with this major mistake it doesn't change the situation. I misread our deficit to be $4.9T when it was 2T. It only changes that mega savings on nickel and dime agencies to .25% as opposed .1 %. Still not the savings we need to do any damage to our deficit.
 
I made a major mistake, and misread something I researched on the internet. But even with this major mistake it doesn't change the situation. I misread our deficit to be $4.9T when it was 2T. It only changes that mega savings on nickel and dime agencies to .25% as opposed .1 %. Still not the savings we need to do any damage to our deficit.
There’s zero doubt we have to tackle the big spending items AND increase tax revenue to right our fiscal situation. Curious to see if we can make any significant spending reductions over the next two years.
 
There’s zero doubt we have to tackle the big spending items AND increase tax revenue to right our fiscal situation. Curious to see if we can make any significant spending reductions over the next two years.
Our congressman will need to be heavily involved in whether to make these cuts. After all they decide on a lot of appropriations and resolutions over these cuts that Doge identifies as 'beneficial' in order to get them passed in budgetary bills. That is unless Trump tries to skirt this in working around the system of checks and balances. (Which he probably will.) And as of now, Doge is only involved with nickel and dime agencies because it makes a big splash in the news, cuts things they want philosophically, but does nothing significant to our budget. I doubt that they will get seriously into big line items.

I doubt that Trump will do anything but cut taxes. He is only concerned with how the tax cuts or increases affect him and those he does business with. He is really concerned with how he looks to maga and to Republican congressmen though. That is the only thing keeping him from getting tarred and feathered legally and in the public opinion arena. If Republican congressmen see an avenue to go against him because public opinion has turned against him they will do it, especially if inflation and/or worse things happen on his watch. Even with all the federal judicial appointments he has made, and will make, I don't think he can escape his downfall if Maga and Republican congresspeople turn against him.

I sincerely doubt our budget will be significantly in any better shape when he leaves office. I hope most of the horribly negative things he does will be held up in court, and lead to nothing, I just am not sure that will be the case or that it occurs in time to matter. A lot of people from both parties hope that congress will keep the President from accomplishing much when their party is out of office. With him it is the courts that people are hoping will stop him. Changing your hope from Congress to the courts holding him back is not a good trade. It means he is trying to regularly break the law and the constitution. He has the Supreme Court stacked in his favor. And he is still not happy with what a 6 to 3 conservative SC is doing to him. That says something right there.
 
Our congressman will need to be heavily involved in whether to make these cuts. After all they decide on a lot of appropriations and resolutions over these cuts that Doge identifies as 'beneficial' in order to get them passed in budgetary bills. That is unless Trump tries to skirt this in working around the system of checks and balances. (Which he probably will.) And as of now, Doge is only involved with nickel and dime agencies because it makes a big splash in the news, cuts things they want philosophically, but does nothing significant to our budget. I doubt that they will get seriously into big line items.

I doubt that Trump will do anything but cut taxes. He is only concerned with how the tax cuts or increases affect him and those he does business with. He is really concerned with how he looks to maga and to Republican congressmen though. That is the only thing keeping him from getting tarred and feathered legally and in the public opinion arena. If Republican congressmen see an avenue to go against him because public opinion has turned against him they will do it, especially if inflation and/or worse things happen on his watch. Even with all the federal judicial appointments he has made, and will make, I don't think he can escape his downfall if Maga and Republican congresspeople turn against him.

I sincerely doubt our budget will be significantly in any better shape when he leaves office. I hope most of the horribly negative things he does will be held up in court, and lead to nothing, I just am not sure that will be the case or that it occurs in time to matter. A lot of people from both parties hope that congress will keep the President from accomplishing much when their party is out of office. With him it is the courts that people are hoping will stop him. Changing your hope from Congress to the courts holding him back is not a good trade. It means he is trying to regularly break the law and the constitution. He has the Supreme Court stacked in his favor. And he is still not happy with what a 6 to 3 conservative SC is doing to him. That says something right there.
Based on decades and decades of history, Congress will never make spending cuts which significantly improve our fiscal position. Cuts don’t financially benefit them nor do they garner votes. One reason why current expenditures are approaching $7T a year.

Pubs will go along with Trump as long as he maintains his current approval rating. That thing drops to what Biden saw and they will abandon him like a rats on a sinking ship.
 
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