ADVERTISEMENT

The first thing, but not the last thing I'm gonna get pissed at Biden over.

Its always fun when someone justifies violating the law.
The system is the way it is because this has been allowed to go on for so long. GMoney is not wrong that any one individual company is at a distinct disadvantage if they try to follow these rules, and that if we bring the hammer down all of a sudden on everyone, it will cause a lot of upheaval.

I do think we should bring the hammer down, but not overnight. Some deference to the fact that this has been going on for a long time and has some of its own momentum should be considered. I think gradually increasing fines and enforcement over a multi year span could work to change the nature of the industry, but I'd be interested to hear what G$ thinks.

edit: fixed typo
 
Last edited:
You start a business in that industry, and see how long you stay in business not hiring hispanics. It may be justification, but it's a necessary justification to keep your business functional. Even white workers want to work under the table, not just hispanics. You can be high & mighty all you want, but that doesn't eradicate the search for employees who will work for you being a problem, if you don't hire some cash workers.
Ah... the old everyone does it defense..

I will bet the plantation owners used the same reasoning..
 
The system is the way it is because this has been allowed to go on for so long. GMoney is not wrong that any one individual company is at a distinct disadvantage if they try to follow these rules, and that if we bring the hammer down all of a sudden on everyone, it will cause a lot of upheaval.

I do think we should bring the hammer down, but not overnight. Some deference to the fact that this has been going on for a long time and has some of its own momentum should be considered. I think gradually increasing fines and enforcement over a multi year span could work to change the nature of the industry, but I'd be interested to hear what G$ thinks.

edit: fixed typo
The only way I can see it getting fixed is for the government to enforce the regulations across the board. Which is what you were saying. This will force the industry to start paying a little more to get legal citizens interested in the jobs. Landscaping jobs would just become more expensive to the clientele. That would squeeze the industry a bit, because a small segment of people just wouldn't hire a landscaper at the higher price. After the industry shrinks ever so slightly, and people become used to higher prices, it would settle into normal. At least that's how I see it. An individual business would have to do it for less profit, until the government enforces it across the board. Landscaping jobs would be towards the more privileged clientele. And in a related area, a few more people would be mowing their own lawns on top of it.

I would say it probably would be good to do it in gradations of punishment. But there will be individual companies(no matter how gradual it is) who will take that risk no matter how high it gets. The reason they will take that risk is because those companies are budgeted to the bone and haven't reached a level of cushion, to afford to raise wages and temporarily lose money before the higher prices start becoming more widely paid. Those companies will likely bite the bullet and go out of business if they get caught when the penalty gets serious.

Of course there will be the risk takers just trying to get away with it, but I think the larger population of risk takers will be at cause of necessity. My guess is those companies who have to take the risk and get caught would shrink the industry somewhat in accordance with those clients who won't be doing the landscaping at the higher prices. So that will work out fairly well for the market. No matter how you do it, there will be a number of companies who suffer/go out of business. But it won't change until it is enforced. If the whole industry cuts their budget a little bit(suppliers of materials... rock, gravel, sod, plants, etc.) it would be a little easier on the landscapers, but that would have to be voluntary, and temporary. I can't really see the suppliers being motivated, seeing as how they are going to sell a few less materials when it is all said and done.

Of course there will be automation, which will take away jobs. Some day your handy dandy gardener will be a robot. It would push lawnmowing a little faster towards robots as well. I can see robot lawnmowers having a manual mode for the trim work. Tree work might move faster towards automation, which wouldn't be a bad thing.

If you want to apply this to other industries then food and cheap motels will cost more. There won't really be a cheap motel.

But then again we are all Cads taking advantage according to NoblesseObligeCane. The reality is you would lose money if you had to pay more without getting more. The profit margins don't allow you to increase your wages that much. You would have to hire tons of guys and get tons of jobs to make any kind of money. You would become the Walmart of Landscaping. Not what I or any others want to do. So it's not exactly the old everyone does it defense.
 
Last edited:
The only way I can see it getting fixed is for the government to enforce the regulations across the board. Which is what you were saying. This will force the industry to start paying a little more to get legal citizens interested in the jobs. Landscaping jobs would just become more expensive to the clientele. That would squeeze the industry a bit, because a small segment of people just wouldn't hire a landscaper at the higher price. After the industry shrinks ever so slightly, and people become used to higher prices, it would settle into normal. At least that's how I see it. An individual business would have to do it for less profit, until the government enforces it across the board. Landscaping jobs would be towards the more privileged clientele. And in a related area, a few more people would be mowing their own lawns on top of it.

I would say it probably would be good to do it in gradations of punishment. But there will be individual companies(no matter how gradual it is) who will take that risk no matter how high it gets. The reason they will take that risk is because those companies are budgeted to the bone and haven't reached a level of cushion, to afford to raise wages and temporarily lose money before the higher prices start becoming more widely paid. Those companies will likely bite the bullet and go out of business if they get caught when the penalty gets serious.

Of course there will be the risk takers just trying to get away with it, but I think the larger population of risk takers will be at cause of necessity. My guess is those companies who have to take the risk and get caught would shrink the industry somewhat in accordance with those clients who won't be doing the landscaping at the higher prices. So that will work out fairly well for the market. No matter how you do it, there will be a number of companies who suffer/go out of business. But it won't change until it is enforced. If the whole industry cuts their budget a little bit(suppliers of materials... rock, gravel, sod, plants, etc.) it would be a little easier on the landscapers, but that would have to be voluntary, and temporary. I can't really see the suppliers being motivated, seeing as how they are going to sell a few less materials when it is all said and done.

Of course there will be automation, which will take away jobs. Some day your handy dandy gardener will be a robot. It would push lawnmowing a little faster towards robots as well. I can see robot lawnmowers having a manual mode for the trim work. Tree work might move faster towards automation, which wouldn't be a bad thing.

If you want to apply this to other industries then food and cheap motels will cost more. There won't really be a cheap motel.

But then again we are all Cads taking advantage according to NoblesseObligeCane. The reality is you would lose money if you had to pay more without getting more. The profit margins don't allow you to increase your wages that much. You would have to hire tons of guys and get tons of jobs to make any kind of money. You would become the Walmart of Landscaping. Not what I or any others want to do. So it's not exactly the old everyone does it defense.
Say what you will. You are violating the law to make a profit while using the "i can't compete without doing it" defense..

I like the fact that you decided to call me a name though... tells me that you have run out of a defense... kinda like calling me "sleepy joe" "lying ted" "crooked hillary" "fauxcahontas".. etc...
 
Say what you will. You are violating the law to make a profit while using the "i can't compete without doing it" defense..

I like the fact that you decided to call me a name though... tells me that you have run out of a defense... kinda like calling me "sleepy joe" "lying ted" "crooked hillary" "fauxcahontas".. etc...
But you saying I'm the problem when the system not being enforced is 'ok'. I was just making a funny with that name. I'm prone to humor sometimes.
 
But you saying I'm the problem when the system not being enforced is 'ok'. I was just making a funny with that name. I'm prone to humor sometimes.
I'm saying you are part of the problem... laws dont just exist when they are enforced. Or when there is threat of enforcement. Laws exist for the betterment or safety of society (or so i have been told) and many times our own personal ethics are the enforcement... i could frame it in morality.. would you cheat on your wife if no one caught you?.. kill a man? Steal from your neighbor?...

Do I build and sell that Pinto?...

Just because there arent enough cops to catch every speeder .....

You get the idea..

Not the first or last time I was called that.. i was having fun with you.

I will say this.. its amazing how many contractors wont sign a contract when you stipulate that all members of the crew have to be documented. Just had my roof redone.. it took a while to find a roofer. But, i did..
 
I'm saying you are part of the problem... laws dont just exist when they are enforced. Or when there is threat of enforcement. Laws exist for the betterment or safety of society (or so i have been told) and many times our own personal ethics are the enforcement... i could frame it in morality.. would you cheat on your wife if no one caught you?.. kill a man? Steal from your neighbor?...

Do I build and sell that Pinto?...

Just because there arent enough cops to catch every speeder .....

You get the idea..

Not the first or last time I was called that.. i was having fun with you.

I will say this.. its amazing how many contractors wont sign a contract when you stipulate that all members of the crew have to be documented. Just had my roof redone.. it took a while to find a roofer. But, i did..
All while you didn't pay an increased cost to have your roof done, because it is not enforced. Or did you pay an increased cost to have your roof done, because you found someone who would do it without undocumented workers?
 
I'm saying you are part of the problem... laws dont just exist when they are enforced. Or when there is threat of enforcement. Laws exist for the betterment or safety of society (or so i have been told) and many times our own personal ethics are the enforcement... i could frame it in morality.. would you cheat on your wife if no one caught you?.. kill a man? Steal from your neighbor?...

Do I build and sell that Pinto?...

Just because there arent enough cops to catch every speeder .....

You get the idea..

Not the first or last time I was called that.. i was having fun with you.

I will say this.. its amazing how many contractors wont sign a contract when you stipulate that all members of the crew have to be documented. Just had my roof redone.. it took a while to find a roofer. But, i did..

It is a system that both the businesses, workers, AND government have a responsibility. The government is not meeting their responsibility while expecting the workers and business are expected to meet theirs. Their is fault on all sides.

Their are gradations of crime, thus gradations of penalty. The gradations for a murder are much more serious than the business not hiring documented workers. That is not a good analogy between murder and hiring undocumented workers. The cheating on your wife is an 'almost' completely moral issue, and I don't think is a good analogy either. With speeding, the risk is a ticket, which the speeder knows. The pinto is not a good analogy because there are not small business owners making pintos, and it becomes a matter of scale and abilities to withstand that scale. The stealing from your neighbor is a better analogy than the others but it is not a perfect analogy. I understand what you are saying, but their is a flip side of that coin that is the governments responsibility too. It is part of a system in which I believe all responsibilities need to be met for the system to work.(As I said before government included, for the system to work as it is designed.) You can't just lay it all on the businesses.
 
If you paid extra for your roof job, then you are taking steps to make the system work. If every client did as you could have done, that would avoid the government's responsibility. Alas they don't.
 
My thoughts on the MW. We are due for an increase, but not to $15 dollars. Say it went to $10-(maybe) 12. That is a big jump in many states, but it wouldn't force California or New York to lower theirs.

But why 15? Because Bernie said so. At the level it is at now it is not making California come down. The cost of living really is different in different states.
Add this to the list!
 
All while you didn't pay an increased cost to have your roof done, because it is not enforced. Or did you pay an increased cost to have your roof done, because you found someone who would do it without undocumented workers?
Dont know.. they didnt bid, nor did i accept a bid if they wouldnt comply... compliance was part of the bid terms.
 
  • Like
Reactions: shon46
It is a system that both the businesses, workers, AND government have a responsibility. The government is not meeting their responsibility while expecting the workers and business are expected to meet theirs. Their is fault on all sides.

Their are gradations of crime, thus gradations of penalty. The gradations for a murder are much more serious than the business not hiring documented workers. That is not a good analogy between murder and hiring undocumented workers. The cheating on your wife is an 'almost' completely moral issue, and I don't think is a good analogy either. With speeding, the risk is a ticket, which the speeder knows. The pinto is not a good analogy because there are not small business owners making pintos, and it becomes a matter of scale and abilities to withstand that scale. The stealing from your neighbor is a better analogy than the others but it is not a perfect analogy. I understand what you are saying, but their is a flip side of that coin that is the governments responsibility too. It is part of a system in which I believe all responsibilities need to be met for the system to work.(As I said before government included, for the system to work as it is designed.) You can't just lay it all on the businesses.
Ethics...
 
  • Like
Reactions: shon46
And if you disagree with the law and are breaking it in protest? Not saying I disagree, just posing the question to get your reaction.
 
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT