State control over one's body

[URedskin54]

I wish I could say I’m surprised by the wholly irrelevant responses here, but this is really just par for the course. The whole point is to distract and fight on ground that’s more comfortable for you. I get it. Argument about x so let’s impugn the motives and character of the people making the argument rather than address what they said. All coming from the “let them kill each other” bros. Can’t get much richer than that. Never mind the fact that I’m not actually debating abortion. All I’ve done is tell you that the only reason you don’t think the other side has a point is that you hate that side and don’t want to see their point, and that most of what you state as fact is just a morally influenced opinion. You don't like this because your self-esteem is tied up with being one of the "good people who follows science." The reality is though that ethical arguments are informed by science, but will always come down to subjective moral judgements.

 

[watu05]

Lawpoke, to respond to your question. I do think that having 1.5% of your population ill and quarantining every 28 days (and that’s not to mention the other illnesses and maladies that the country normally gets) will have an effect on supply chains and service schedules. Also, that will be magnified as other trade companions are suffering similar issues.

I agree about more groups being mandated vaccines to make the mandates more effective and more equitable. I wish it hadn’t come to such a necessity as to recognize that over 30% of the country were just unwilling to cooperate for the common good.

Also there are limits on who Presidential orders can affect . Nothing broader would get through Congress soon enough which is focused on other issues even if it would pass.

 

[lawpoke87]

Also there are limits on who Presidential orders can affect . Nothing broader would get through Congress soon enough which is focused on other issues even if it would pass.

There is zero chance a Presidential order can require private employers to require vaccines of employees but not require people who receive government aid to abide by those same rules. Biden had the opportunity to target our least vaccinated demographic and declined. The reason this wasn’t done is purely political.

 

[astonmartin708]

Agreed. Abstiinence is a quaint idea in today's hypersexualized, media-saturated society. I'm pretty old school, e.g., for me thongs look like torture!

I mean, a desire for abstinence is nice… but it’s kind of like refusing to design cars with crumple zones to discourage people from getting into accidents.

 

[astonmartin708]

There is zero chance a Presidential order can require private employers to require vaccines of employees but not require people who receive government aid to abide by those same rules. Biden had the opportunity to target our least vaccinated demographic and declined. The reason this wasn’t done is purely political.

I can’t attest to why it wasn’t done. I don’t believe that he wouldn’t do it just because it would upset his base, because most of them support the vaccine’s efficacy (or are indifferent), even the ones who haven’t received it yet.

 

[lawpoke87]

I can’t attest to why it wasn’t done. I don’t believe that he wouldn’t do it just because it would upset his base, because most of them support the vaccine’s efficacy (or are indifferent), even the ones who haven’t received it yet.

There is zero chance a vaccine mandate which disproportionately affects minorities would be popular among said minorities. 100% political decision.

 

[astonmartin708]

There is zero chance a vaccine mandate which disproportionately affects minorities would be popular among said minorities. 100% political decision.

It disproportionately effects minorities by percentage not by population size. Also, you act as though the minorities are unlikely to have a job at a 100+ person company.

Among vaccines administered in the past 14 days, 26% have gone to Hispanic people and 15% to Black people (Figure 1). These recent patterns suggest a narrowing of racial gaps in vaccinations at the national level, particularly for Hispanic and Black people, who account for a larger share of recent vaccinations compared to their share of the total population (26% vs. 17% and 15% vs. 12%, respectively). While these data provide helpful insights at a national level, to date, CDC is not publicly reporting state-level data on the racial/ethnic composition of people vaccinated.

Do you really think that Biden would try to get Republicans and Independents vaccinated just out of spite, and that he wouldn’t care about the health of his base who he will need to vote for him and other democrats?

 

[URedskin54]

There is zero chance a vaccine mandate which disproportionately affects minorities would be popular among said minorities. 100% political decision.

I agree about it being political, but I don't think minorities were specifically in mind. The only thing keeping the remaining working class white people in the democratic party is welfare. Yank that away, especially tied to a vaccine mandate, and it becomes really difficult to win PA/MI/WI

 

[astonmartin708]

I agree about it being political, but I don't think minorities were specifically in mind. The only thing keeping the remaining working class white people in the democratic party is welfare. Yank that away, especially tied to a vaccine mandate, and it becomes really difficult to win PA/MI/WI

What attracts working class white people away from the Democratic Party? Insurrections and pandemics?

 

[watu05]

What attracts working class white people away from the Democratic Party? Insurrections and pandemics?

Part of Trump's appeal is that he was bigger than either party and people should support him personally. He was sort of a RINO, but the Republican's went along with it because...well, why not? They saw a chance get some shared goals done, which they did at SCOTUS. Many wage earning Dems were fed up with stagnant wages, rising personal debt and the pain of the 2008 financial crisis. Donald promised to deliver the goods quickly. They'd all get tired of winning, best health care, land of milk and honey, etc. etc. Fortunately enough voters got tired of the reality show that Trump tried to substitute for action (particularly when the pandemic made it unignorable) to vote him out office, but the populist appeal and myths persist. There's a recent poll out indicating that over 50% of Republicans think believing Trump won the election is key to being a Republican.

 

[URedskin54]

What attracts working class white people away from the Democratic Party? Insurrections and pandemics?

It's easy to not vote for people who hate you and tell you that they hate you every day. There are a few dems who understand this. They’re mostly hard-left socialists, but there are people in the democratic party saying "stop insulting these people." Other Dems would be wise to listen to them. There are also some republicans softening on the anti-welfare and anti-union stances. Trump was one. Rubio is one. There's several more. Beyond that there just isn't much to keep them in the democratic party anymore.

 

[astonmartin708]

It's easy to not vote for people who hate you and tell you that they hate you every day. There are a few dems who understand this. They’re mostly hard-left socialists, but there are people in the democratic party saying "stop insulting these people." Other Dems would be wise to listen to them. There are also some republicans softening on the anti-welfare and anti-union stances. Trump was one. Rubio is one. There's several more. Beyond that there just isn't much to keep them in the democratic party anymore.

Stop insulting which people?

 

[lawpoke87]

It disproportionately effects minorities by percentage not by population size. Also, you act as though the minorities are unlikely to have a job at a 100+ person company.

Among vaccines administered in the past 14 days, 26% have gone to Hispanic people and 15% to Black people (Figure 1). These recent patterns suggest a narrowing of racial gaps in vaccinations at the national level, particularly for Hispanic and Black people, who account for a larger share of recent vaccinations compared to their share of the total population (26% vs. 17% and 15% vs. 12%, respectively). While these data provide helpful insights at a national level, to date, CDC is not publicly reporting state-level data on the racial/ethnic composition of people vaccinated.

Do you really think that Biden would try to get Republicans and Independents vaccinated just out of spite, and that he wouldn’t care about the health of his base who he will need to vote for him and other democrats?

We usually talk about issues which affect minorities in terms of percentages. My comment has zero to do with whether minorities work for large companies. Minorities are disproportionately poor. Poor people are the lowest vaccinated demographic. You do the math.

I never said Biden’s policy was out of spite. I said that a mandatory vaccination would be very unpopular in the minority community. I community which votes for his party by a 5-1 margin. No chance he’s pissing them off It’s political. Period

 

[astonmartin708]

We usually talk about issues which affect minorities in terms of percentages. My comment has zero to do with whether minorities work for large companies. Minorities are disproportionately poor. Poor people are the lowest vaccinated demographic. You do the math.

I never said Biden’s policy was out of spite. I said that a mandatory vaccination would be very unpopular in the minority community. I community which votes for his party by a 5-1 margin. No chance he’s pissing them off It’s political. Period

Pissing them off? Instead he's going to be attacked for their covid rates being significantly higher than other populations. That's a good look.

 

[lawpoke87]

Pissing them off? Instead he's going to be attacked for their covid rates being significantly higher than other populations. That's a good look.

When you see the black democratic leaders go after him on that point let me know.

 

[TUMe]

This is probably the most hated thread on Crossfire.

Let's keep it going!!

 

[aTUfan]

interesting conderium for the left, they are all in with the concept of "my body, my choice" for abortions, contraception, ... but then are all in with gov mandates for masking and vaccines, banning sugar, limiting soft drink size, banning cigarette ads and public smoking

 

[URedskin54]

interesting conderium for the left, they are all in with the concept of "my body, my choice" for abortions, contraception, ... but then are all in with gov mandates for masking and vaccines, banning sugar, limiting soft drink size, banning cigarette ads and public smoking

"My body, my choice" is a childish slogan for both the left and the right. In both cases the opponents do not give a flying **** about what a person is doing with their body, they're worried about how their choices will hurt others.

 

[aTUfan]

for a covid19 shot it's yes.
for contraception and abortion. it's no.

 

[TU_BLA]

for a covid19 shot it's yes.
for contraception and abortion. it's no.

Actually the hypocrisy is on the right...they're the ones passing laws to limit a person's ability to choose. What you don't understand is that your rights and choices cannot take another's right to life, liberty, happiness away. Your "rights'" cannot impeded someone else's rights. Not wearing a mask, not getting vaccinated impacts others.

Stop being a selfish prick and start thinking about others for once. If you claim to be Christian, you are commanded by Christ to think of others first instead of your own needs and wants. It's in the Bible and if you'd like I can start with a dozen or so scripture verses for you. The Commandment is "Love thy neighbor" not "Thou Shall be a Selfish asshole"

 

[aTUfan]

people having children they can't afford foes affect me. i, taxpayers, foot the bill.

 

[TU 1978]

We should be more focused on the medical insurance companies having more control over one’s body. After all, they often overrule our doctors and demand that testing not be done, or even that your medications be changed.

A case to illustrate based on my wife’s experience with the offensive Cigna - they demanded a medication change to a cheaper medicine (for them) that she had been prescribed as they would no longer cover the one she was using. Several weeks after this change, she wound up in the hospital due to this medication change - and was in the hospital for over a month. After she was discharged, Cigna told us they weren’t paying for the bulk of her hospital stay, which was ultimately found to be from the change in her medication they had demanded in the first place. After a year and a half they finally paid the hospital and the bill was settled, but it took all sorts of appeals to Cigna and the state board of insurance.

 

[watu05]

We should be more focused on the medical insurance companies having more control over one’s body. After all, they often overrule our doctors and demand that testing not be done, or even that your medications be changed.

A case to illustrate based on my wife’s experience with the offensive Cigna - they demanded a medication change to a cheaper medicine (for them) that she had been prescribed as they would no longer cover the one she was using. Several weeks after this change, she wound up in the hospital due to this medication change - and was in the hospital for over a month. After she was discharged, Cigna told us they weren’t paying for the bulk of her hospital stay, which was ultimately found to be from the change in her medication they had demanded in the first place. After a year and a half they finally paid the hospital and the bill was settled, but it took all sorts of appeals to Cigna and the state board of insurance.

I'm sorry to hear about your wife. I hope things work out in the end.
For some reason people get up in arms about 'government death panels', evidently with the assumption that for profit insurance companies will make more humane health decisions, In the private sector the pressure to reduce costs to keep shareholders happy is enormous. After all they are hot stocks paying huge management salaries. The thought of their employees earning bonuses by restricting costs is even scarier.
I'm on traditional Medicare because I don't want some private insurance company making decisions for me via Medicare Advantage. I pay more, but most of the choices are mine, including my doctor, my hospital, and my drug plan.

 

[aTUfan]

men tend to have to pay more for ife ins