Orlando: Let the debate begin.

[TUMe]

50 dead and 53 wounded in Orlando at a biggest gay bar in that city. Some news sites are saying "terrorism" with the quotes around terrorism like there is some question.

Was it terrorism? I don't see how anyone can say it wasn't.

Was it a hate crime? I doubt it was random that a gay bar was picked.

Was it Islamic Terrorism? Omar Makeem of Afghan background and a Muslim was the shooter. Islamists aren't big on homosexuality.

Will Obama call it Islamic Terrorism? No, that would be divisive.

What will be the answer we will hear? Guns were to blame. Worst gun violence in US history. We must stop Americans from owning guns. The shooter was an American by birth and a registered Democrat.

 

[lawpoke87]

Isis warned of a terrorist attack in Florida three days ago and is tweeting out this guy's name. No confirmed ties as of yet but it certainly looks suspicious.

 

[noble cane]

Cries to disarm will go out. The media will fan the fires... More guns will be sold.. And Trump will get more votes...

 

[astonmartin708]

Isis warned of a terrorist attack in Florida three days ago and is tweeting out this guy's name. No confirmed ties as of yet but it certainly looks suspicious.

People will blame the Administration (for some reason). I'm just astounded that if the FBI knew about the guy (as is rumored), why he was able to arm himself in such a fashion.

Overall, this is looking to be a pretty complicated situation. You have a pro-gun, anti-gay muslim who was a registered Democrat in 2006. I'm guessing his (D) registration was in order to oppose Bush and the two wars when he was running for a second term. It's scary how much ideology this guy actually shared with the far-right though. The only difference between these two types of people are whether or not the word Allah or Jesus comes out of your mouth more frequently.

 

[TUMe]

I'm no expert on the Christian religion, but I don't believe most branches currently practice sword beheadings. Some Republicans may be anti-gay, but few advocate shooting more than a 100 at a time. It causes much less furor if one kills them a few at a time.

 

[astonmartin708]

I'm no expert on the Christian religion, but I don't believe most branches currently practice sword beheadings. Some Republicans may be anti-gay, but few advocate shooting more than a 100 at a time. It causes much less furor if one kills them a few at a time.

What's the difference in shooting a planned parenthood building and killing multiple people? Don't act like Christianity is a superior religion, especially when , just like in Islam, people pick and choose ideals to uphold.

 

[lawpoke87]

For starters he's not pledging allegiance to a Christian organization and following their orders doing the same. Secondly, Christain leaders aren't encouraging their followers to murder as many non-Christians as possible and often providing them the means for doing the same.

There are obviously others but I would start there.

 

[aTUfan]

i'm growing tired of the news reports.

bho expresses more outrage over the terrorists weapon's than on his motivations and hate.
cair spokesman makes it sound like Muslims are the victims.

How can someone on the Government watch list do this?
What good is the watch list?
This tragedy is a result of inept leadership.

 

[TUMe]

What's the difference in shooting a planned parenthood building and killing multiple people? Don't act like Christianity is a superior religion, especially when , just like in Islam, people pick and choose ideals to uphold.

I'm not a advocate of any religion. But Christianity as practiced in the century hasn't taken out large buildings in other countries in the name of their religion. Certainly all countries and their included religion have done so in war. It does allow women to drive automobiles, does not behead innocents, require covering faces, offer convert or die choices to many, prohibit girls from getting an education.

I'm not a member of any clubs, but I Rotarians do not equate to me with members the Klu Klux Klan. The same can be said of religions. And certainly, I don't include all Muslims with the very worst. But there is a larger convert or die element in Islam than in many other non-Christian and Christian religions. But if there were to be a attack on a abortion clinic today by militant Christians, I would be the first to condemn it. Today though the attack was by ISIS on groups whose sexual preference they don't tolerate.

 

[astonmartin708]

For starters he's not pledging allegiance to a Christian organization and following their orders doing the same. Secondly, Christain leaders aren't encouraging their followers to murder as many non-Christians as possible and often providing them the means for doing the same.

There are obviously others but I would start there.

UUUUUUHHHH. We've had multiple actual wars with non-Christians, and several shadow wars with non-christians where our soldiers were encouraged to kill those that we considered our enemies. We've killed tons of them.

Also,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/07/robert-doggart-indicted_n_7744168.html

 

[astonmartin708]

I'm not a advocate of any religion. But Christianity as practiced in the century hasn't taken out large buildings in other countries in the name of their religion. Certainly all countries and their included religion have done so in war. It does allow women to drive automobiles, does not behead innocents, require covering faces, offer convert or die choices to many, prohibit girls from getting an education.

I'm not a member of any clubs, but I Rotarians do not equate to me with members the Klu Klux Klan. The same can be said of religions. And certainly, I don't include all Muslims with the very worst. But there is a larger convert or die element in Islam than in many other non-Christian and Christian religions. But if there were to be a attack on a abortion clinic today by militant Christians, I would be the first to condemn it. Today though the attack was by ISIS on groups whose sexual preference they don't tolerate.

I'm just tired of seeing this devolve into "us vs. them" when it's not Islam in general that we're having problems with. It's a subset of Islam that is extremely fundamentalist and ultra-conservative. The same type of branch exists in multiple branches of protestant denominations as well.

Also, we've probably killed just as many ISIS members via single airstrikes as were killed today. The situation needs to be de-escalated instead of escalated. Short of denouncing our most important middle eastern allies (Israel, Turkey, etc...) I just say leave them alone, spend the money that we would have been spending sending troops over there on improving national security at home. If they want to kill each other let them kill each other, but I'm tired of being the world-police because this is what it gets us: involved in ridiculous ideological conflicts.

 

[noble cane]

People will blame the Administration (for some reason). I'm just astounded that if the FBI knew about the guy (as is rumored), why he was able to arm himself in such a fashion.

Overall, this is looking to be a pretty complicated situation. You have a pro-gun, anti-gay muslim who was a registered Democrat in 2006. I'm guessing his (D) registration was in order to oppose Bush and the two wars when he was running for a second term. It's scary how much ideology this guy actually shared with the far-right though. The only difference between these two types of people are whether or not the word Allah or Jesus comes out of your mouth more frequently.

Wow... Just wow.
1. Bush's fault.... 8 yrs into Obama Administration.
2. Registered democrat because of bush.. Although 80% of Muslims in America are registered democrats.
3. Christians and Islamic extremists are equals...

Wow.. Interesting time to take the far left ideological line.

 

[aTUfan]

are the powers that be going to

demand removal all Islamic displays, due to the action of an religious radical who committed a hate crime against gays?

Similar to:

their demand to remove all civil war displays, due to the action of an racist radical who committed a hate crime against blacks?

 

[lawpoke87]

UUUUUUHHHH. We've had multiple actual wars with non-Christians, and several shadow wars with non-christians where our soldiers were encouraged to kill those that we considered our enemies. We've killed tons of them.

Also,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/07/robert-doggart-indicted_n_7744168.html

What? Our military is made up of many different denominations as well as agnostic and atheist. Our military doesn't following a Christian doctrine nor are our generals guided by Christianity in their decisions.

Talk about a denier.

 

[URedskin54]

I didn't realize there was a popular movement of southern Baptists who advocate tossing gays off of buildings.

 

[TUMe]

We aren't talking about wars here. The groups at that this meeting of gays, lesbians, transgender etc. are not a war with Islam. In fact, most are liberal and do not support wars like you talk about, Aston. I doubt if they, unlike ISIS were planning any attacks abroad. They were having a rather innocent meeting in terms of international politics. Yet these Islamist don't have much sympathy for people who don't follow the Koran. In fact, they gladly kill them. The President of Iran has stated that they are no such people in Iran. [The because they either kill them or they are forced to hide their true selves..] Most of the people they killed probably were not supporters of Bush, who in case you forget, has been gone almost 7.5 years. Face it, Muslims aren't fond of gays, et. al.

Most liberals support gay rights, but also defend Islamic Terrorist who just killed them. They like rainbow posters but don't have real people's backs.

If a "Christian' bombs an abortion clinic, we do our best to catch and punish them. If an Islamist kills gay Americans, ISIS brags about it...takes credit.

I'm using the word Islamist not Muslim. There is a distinction. Just as there would be between a Jew and a Zionist terrorist. Every religion may have bad elements. But in this country, we distinguish between Christians and Christian Nuts and punish those who do wrong. Among may Muslims they--at best--keep quiet about the radicals and at worst celebrate and support them.

 

[astonmartin708]

Who the hell was defending Islamic Terrorists? The only people I have seen do that are people that were anti-gay here in the U.S. and were basically saying "good riddance" as evidenced by my link.

Clearly, the terrorists have won the day and have been winning for a long time.... Not because they inflict so many casualties but because they accomplish their goal of causing terror. They rile you up and cause animosity between even the most common followers of the two belief groups. They're trying to make a holy war and all of you schmucks are falling for it.

 

[TUMe]

Who the hell was defending Islamic Terrorists?.

You were using a bait switch, in which you take instances where Americans did wrong and were sought out and punished and comparing it to attacking over 100 people, announcing that it was your intention and also the glorification by a pseudo-country called ISIS. No other religion is recruiting people to commit mass murder.

We have a Administration who has trouble seeing terrorism. This time it was so bad that they could not call it job site violence. This time the terrorist stated it in a record 911 conversation. The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria took credit for it. Yet we have a President who cannot make his mouth say Islamic Terrorism.

 

[astonmartin708]

You were using a bait switch, in which you take instances where Americans did wrong and were sought out and punished and comparing it to attacking over 100 people, announcing that it was your intention and also the glorification by a pseudo-country called ISIS. No other religion is recruiting people to commit mass murder.

We have a Administration who has trouble seeing terrorism. This time it was so bad that they could not call it job site violence. This time the terrorist stated it in a record 911 conversation. The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria took credit for it. Yet we have a President who cannot make his mouth say Islamic Terrorism.

No. I was presenting evidence that the religion that most people in this country subscribe to isn't as innocent as people make it out to be. I never defended the actions of the other abhorrent religion. I gave logic behind the (probable) reason the shooter was a registered democrat in 2006. I them argued that both of those religions are just ridiculous of you are going to view them in an ultra-fundamentalist fashion. And that the American right, modeled by some people on this board, shouldn't get drawn into an ideological holy war where they argue that one religion is superior to the other because that's exactly what these ultra conservative fundamentists an ocean away want us to do.

 

[lawpoke87]

I'm not sure there's a big distinction between your attempt to justify the murder of innocent people in the name of Islam (pointing out we've killed lots of them in wars) to defending their terrorist actions. They murder far more of their fellow Muslims in terrorist attacks then victims in the West btw. The war analogy was misplaced imo and came off as a defense of these barbaric attacks.

 

[TUMe]

First, let me say that my remark about him being a Democrat was just a recital of the information that we had at that time. There is no significance at all to his being a Democrat. I could care less about his party registration.

Second, all religions have some bad members just as there are bad actors among people with no religious affiliation. However, among Islam you find governments who support terrorism. ISIS, Iran, and others. In most religions if someone shot over a hundred people they would be condemned and if still alive punished. No one would claim responsibility and cheer for it.

Let's be clear the religious right, which I am not a member of, has opinions that many people don't like. The Ultra Islamists have actions that are revolting. If you want to compare laws about bathroom choice or refusing to make a wedding cake [stupid thing to do on both sides] to cutting people's heads of with a sword, shooting 100 LGTB people, or killing girls for going to school then you lack a bit of judgement.

 

[astonmartin708]

It wasn't meant to be a defense. I simply offered what I thought to be the collective reasoning of a large group of people. They are angry for the wars that have been shoved on their region. Whether or not their reasoning is morally acceptable was not the point of my post. Also, I brought up the war analogy after someone, I forget who, said that these people were doing all of this without provocation. While the nightclub attack was certainly without provocation I would say the people of the middle east see the US as having wronged them in some way(s). I'm not agreeing with their viewpoint. I'm simply noting it, and providing what I perceive their reasoning to be.


I made no mention of the religious restrictions our society puts on certain subsets. I was specifically talking about malice that has been wished on those subsets, publicly, by extremists on the Christian far-right; and beyond that, people like Robert Doggart who had plans to commit acts of malice against Muslims in the exact same vein as those carried out this week. The only difference being that he got caught and this idiot in Florida didn't.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tennessee-man-pleads-guilty-to-plotting-attack-on-muslims/

 

[lawpoke87]

It wasn't meant to be a defense. I simply offered what I thought to be the collective reasoning of a large group of people. They are angry for the wars that have been shoved on their region.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tennessee-man-pleads-guilty-to-plotting-attack-on-muslims/

I'll ask again...if this is there reasoning then why are they murdering other Muslims who had nothing to do with these "wars" at a much higher rate than those from countries who did? I propose that these acts both here and in the Middle East aren't about revenge but I strict and demented interpretation of a religious book and doctrine. Unfortunately, there are those who can't seem to grasp this idea even in the face of mass murder currently occurring. The bulk of which is being committed against their fellow Muslims who don't follow their religious doctrine.

 

[noble cane]

I simply offered what I thought to be the collective reasoning of a large group of people.

You offered a reason for someone to be a democrat because that's why you became a democrat...you personalized the issue then generalized it because everyone must be as logical as you. Everyone has to hate and blame Bush for all the worlds problems.. Or else they are a right wing Christian religious bigot.

Never mind that most Muslims are democrats because the Obama administration is perceived as friendly to Islamist causes rather than supportive of Israel.

 

[URedskin54]

The attempt to draw a moral equivalence between fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims makes me wonder if people really understand the culture we're dealing with. The worst things you could associate with a person: rape, pedophilia, abuse of women, killing gay people...these aren't outliers in most of the Muslim world. Often they're the norm. Westboro Baptist look like absolute saints in comparison. The Muslim world is not some one-off guy that shoots up a planned parenthood. Are they all bad? No, not even close. In the US Muslims are significantly more moderate and many see protecting non-Muslims as a duty, but you would still be shocked at how many find pretty terrible things permissible under Islam. This isn't the Middle Ages so please let's stop pretending there's anything similar going on in other religions. They have a problem, and they need to address it.

 

[lawpoke87]

When you have an U.S. Imam publically telling Muslims that "according to Islamic law gays should be killed out of compassion" there is obviously a problem. Why Libs constantly defend such an intolerant religion is beyond me. It's like they can't come to grips that a majority of Muslims actually possess these intolerant views on gays, women, other religions, etc...and instead go into full denial. These type of views are wrong regardless of ones chosen religion. However, when a group advocates and carries out mass murder based on said views it becomes highly dangerous. Weak analogies or hoping for unsupported explanations (we have seen both here) only encourage this type horrific behavior.

 

[noble cane]

Why Libs constantly defend such an intolerant religion is beyond me..

They defend it because it is in opposition to the perceived Christian morality which they despise and because (like them) it blames western colonialism/capitalism for all of their problems. islam is a convenient ally for the libs as they seek to tear down the country's structure from the inside. Remember Alinsky.. Top down, bottom up, and inside out. Use you allies of convenience and then destroy them when they are no longer useful. The libs think that they can corrupt Islam once they have defeated the Christian influence here. Too bad they can't see that it is corrupting them and will have defeated them before they realize.

 

[lawpoke87]

I certainly don't consider myself pro-religious....any sect. My observation is that the very things they rail on the right for (intolerance) is found four-fold in Islam yet they go out of their way to not only defend the religion but often embrace it. If Christian nuts were going around mass killing people in the name of Christianity does anyone believe for one second they would be defending Christianity or trying justifying the terrorist acts?

 

[fanatu]

 

[TUBballJunkie]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/hondswitz.asp

 

[TUMe]

Fully automatic guns are also banned in the US, as the article says they are in Switzerland.

 

[TUMe]

Just for comparison, when was the last any group of fundamentalist Christians burned someone alive in a cage or beheaded ten people? 708 likes to compare the two fundamentalists. But I don't think it is valid. I am not an advocate of any religion but but the most extreme Islamic groups are centuries behind other religions.