Obama nails it.

[WATU2]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...ism_and_communism_just_decide_what_works.html

Forget all the gibberish about terms that were created over a 100 years ago and just go with what works. That's what the private sector does. Why do we get so hung up on words that no one can even agree on the meaning of?

What works might even be working better overseas. Or not. But will we have the curiosity or willingness to drop xenophobic blinders to find out?

 

[TUMe]

Happiness thread, take two.

Let's use Obama's example of communism and capitalism. We have real trial results for decades in Germany. Same smart, hard working Germans. East was communist. West had real companies like BMW, Bayer, Volkswagen. Did East Germany build a wall to keep people out?

As much as I hate to, I am going to quote Hillary. Bernie wants single payer. Hrc says we just spent 6 years installing Obamacare and you want to give something else a try? I say let's try banning alcohol. Wait, we did and how many years did it take to go back? 13 years. We aren't talking about flipping a switch off and on.

 

[lawpoke87]

History provides us a pretty clear picture of how communism has worked for numerous countries and their people throughout the years. Obama would be well served to brush up on world history and assert that communism has been tried again and again and has time after time failed its citizens.

Agree...gibberish.

 

[noble cane]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...ism_and_communism_just_decide_what_works.html

Forget all the gibberish about terms that were created over a 100 years ago and just go with what works. That's what the private sector does. Why do we get so hung up on words that no one can even agree on the meaning of?

What works might even be working better overseas. Or not. But will we have the curiosity or willingness to drop xenophobic blinders to find out?

You just keep marginalizing yourself .... Your defense of Marxist Socialists is unbecoming of someone of your intellectual prowess.

 

[URedskin54]

So the leader of the free world uses his platform to encourage people to choose communism over liberty if it works better. Great

 

[eastcane]

I have a hard time believing the responses to WATU's post, feel like I'm at a Trump or Cruz rally. What did he say that wasn't true? Nothing, absolutely nothing, every country is different. Unbridled top tier capitalism that the GOP has given us in the United States has created the most unequal income disparity this country has ever known. Fact!!! And looking at the economic policies of the 17 stooges that the GOP trotted out to the pitch in the presidential primary, every single one of them wanted to make the dreadful, awful, income disparity that much worse, yet you b*tch about President Obama's clear eyed opinion, that every country is different, and every country needs to make the best decisions based on its citizens, and their collective needs. Holy Cow!!

 

[lawpoke87]

This isn't the 1940s and an intellectual debate on whether communism works. We know it doesn't. There's a reason only Cuba, Laos, China, Vietnam and Nkrth Korea remain as communist states. Anyone (besides Obama) want to argue that the people is those countries are better off from a civil liberties and economic standpoint than their capitalist neighbors?

We've tried this form of government. A form which is characterized by a one party dictatorship and a limitation of civil liberties among its citIzens. What was true sixty years ago remains true today in those countries under communist oppression. I'm not sure what was more ridiculous the statement that communism works or Obama's minion who conveniently forgets history in an effort to defend this nonsense.

 

[TUMe]

My cell phone is a Samsung. I believe that is South Korean. There are South Korean cars that seem pretty okay, I haven't had one so I can't say.

China had income parity under the "Great leap forward." No one had anything. The USSR had income parity but there wasn't anything to buy. You could, however, look at the latest weapons systems in parades.

True Communism has "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" but that really turns into dictatorship by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Fidel, et al. Don't forget the Killing Fields of Cambodia, the nut in North Korea as I type, Stalinist purges. Of course, the dictatorship is only for a short period. 70 years in the USSR.

Obama says we can't agree on they meaning of words like Communism and Capitalism. Tell me three of your friends who have been purged and sent to a camp in Alaska.

Once again, we have 'If it feels good and sounds good say it.' Maybe the word that liberals don't know the meaning of is "truth."

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Who was Obama's literal and figurative audience, where was he speaking? Considering the flag was Argentinian, I am assuming he literally was speaking to a semi broad group of
Argentine political leaders and media, and that his figurative audience included the world and the people of Argentina. If so, then I don't necessarily believe he was speaking in favor of communism so much as implying that if your government forced you to work within a communist structure(through jack boot militancy and/or propagandic laws and policies) then just choose what works within that system. The road to hell was paved with good and/or so so intentions. He speaks while sliding down that slippery slope on a toboggan.

 

[TUBballJunkie]

Agreed, gmoney. Audience matters.

I'm not one that thinks it's the United States' place to police other sovereign nations' political and government structure. I can say I don't want a certain ideology to rule here while also acknowledging the right for it to be the choice elsewhere.

 

[TUMe]

WATU says that business tries things that work. Well, sort of, but business has to obey laws and regulation. They should have to. They have to obey minimum wage laws, anti-discrimination laws, environmental, and safety rules. They have to obey anti-trust laws. On top of that, if the new idea fails they go out of business. They have to make money.

Government in one sense has it easier. We would be thrilled if they just broke even. But they also have their rules and regulations that they must obey. The Constitution. First Congress has to pass something, then the President has to sign it into law. Then it's tested in the Courts. Again, that's they way it should be.

WATU says let's give some things a try: "But will we have the curiosity or willingness to drop xenophobic blinders to find out?" Even the presumptive nominee of the more "progressive" party thinks trying a European style health system is a bit much when we are still dealing with a new system here.

 

[lawpoke87]

Who was Obama's literal and figurative audience, where was he speaking? Considering the flag was Argentinian, I am assuming he literally was speaking to a semi broad group of Political leaders and media, and that his figurative audience included the world and the people of Argentina. If so, then I don't necessarily believe he was speaking in favor of communism so much as implying that if your government forced you to work within a communist structure(through jack boot militancy and/or propagandic laws and policies) then just choose what works within that system. The road to hell was paved with good and/or so so intentions. He speaks while sliding down that slippery slope on a toboggan.

So if the government which you live under is an oppressive dictatorship which is against basic civil liberties then you should just "make the best of it"? Change for the better doesn't occur with this line of thinking. We have always been a beacon for personal freedom and democracy and our ideas and influence helped spread democracy and freedom to much of Eastern Europe. Can you imagine Reagan speaking at the Berlin Wall telling the East Germans to accept and make the best of their oppressive situation instead of demanding freedom and democracy? Given Obama's target audience, his words are even more troubling.

 

[rabidTU]

So if the government which you live under is an oppressive dictatorship which is against basic civil liberties then you should just "make the best of it"? Change for the better doesn't occur with this line of thinking. We have always been a beacon for personal freedom and democracy and our ideas and influence helped spread democracy and freedom to much of Eastern Europe. Can you imagine Reagan speaking at the Berlin Wall telling the East Germans to accept and make the best of their oppressive situation instead of demanding freedom and democracy? Given Obama's target audience, his words are even more troubling.

Problem is that our liberal friends enjoy their lives here in the USA and the goodies that come from free enterprise, but are so selfish they want more and more stuff they don't have to earn. Its just being selfish. As long as it comes out of the other guys pocket, they are fine with that.

Now what was it Dean Wormer said to Blutarsky about going through life . . . . . ?

 

[WATU2]

I have a hard time believing the responses to WATU's post, feel like I'm at a Trump or Cruz rally. What did he say that wasn't true?

What is so interesting about this speech and the reaction is that Obama is just saying what we expect every successful private company CEO to say. "Conservatives" like to laud the private sector for its efficiency and ingenuity--a large part of which is the result of watching and learning from the competition, searching for up new ideas wherever they are, or developing new ones.

Take company A which finds out that foreign company X has found a way to deliver a product at half the price and with the same results, say with micro chips instead of vacuum tubes.. Would company A's board or shareholders be happy if the management said, "No, we can't look at that technology because we are a vacuum tube company? No, you'd look at what works. Not only that, to stay competitive company A would constantly seeking and testing new ideas.

So President Obama says we should consider what works and people suddenly refuse to even look because of some label they don't even understand or even want to learn about?

Or is it just that so much time and effort has been spent vilifying the President that everything he says is automatically wrong if not evil?

 

[lawpoke87]

Average yearly wages in the four communist countries


Laos. $400
China. $4,250
Cuba. $240
Vietnam. $148

Ignoring "labels", what exactly is working in these countries which Obama believes we should emulate?
Or is he speaking of these counties sterling record on civil liberties and personal freedoms which we should copy?

 

[URedskin54]

The correct analogy would be if CEO 1 drove a company into bankruptcy and got removed, then the next CEO came in and implemented policies that made the company wildly successful. The when CEO 2 retires, his replacement comes in and says we're going to do the things CEO 1 did but it will work better this time.

 

[TUMe]

Hey, WATU let's eliminate all the typing.

You copy and paste your posts where you say the government should be innovative like a company.

Others copy and paste where we feel like it's nothing like a company and the rest of what we say.

Then we both declare that we are right and the other side is wrong.

 

[WATU2]

every country is different, and every country needs to make the best decisions based on its citizens, and their collective needs. Holy Cow!!

As American students fall further behind in international rankings, let's not consider what is working elsewhere.

 

[TU_BLA]

This isn't the 1940s and an intellectual debate on whether communism works. We know it doesn't. There's a reason only Cuba, Laos, China, Vietnam and Nkrth Korea remain as communist states. Anyone (besides Obama) want to argue that the people is those countries are better off from a civil liberties and economic standpoint than their capitalist neighbors?

We've tried this form of government. A form which is characterized by a one party dictatorship and a limitation of civil liberties among its citIzens. What was true sixty years ago remains true today in those countries under communist oppression. I'm not sure what was more ridiculous the statement that communism works or Obama's minion who conveniently forgets history in an effort to defend this nonsense.

I am going to argue that while those countries say they are "communist", they are more of fascist dictatorships. As was the entire eastern bloc led by the USSR. Without the military backing, the leaders in those countries aren't able to hold on. The reason "communism" doesn't work is because someone has to be in charge and be the administrator although there really isn't a provision for that according to Marx.

 

[TUMe]

I am going to argue that while those countries say they are "communist", they are more of fascist dictatorships. As was the entire eastern bloc led by the USSR. Without the military backing, the leaders in those countries aren't able to hold on. The reason "communism" doesn't work is because someone has to be in charge and be the administrator although there really isn't a provision for that according to Marx.

Someone was in charge. It was called the dictatorship of the proletariat. It was a temporary phase only for a short amount of time...only about 70 years in the USSR. And it was in Karl Marx's communist manifesto.

"In Marxist sociopolitical thought, the dictatorship of the proletariat refers to a state in which the proletariat, or the working class, has control of political power.[1][2] The term, coined by Joseph Weydemeyer, was adopted by the founders of Marxism, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, in the 19th century. In Marxist theory, the dictatorship of the proletariat is the intermediate system between capitalism and communism, when the government is in the process of changing the means of ownership from privatism to collective ownership."[3]

Both Stalin and Mao dressed in rough non-fancy uniforms because they were representing the proletariat.

If communists and fascist were the same, it's odd, because they sure didn't much care for each other.

 

[WATU2]

I am going to argue that while those countries say they are "communist", they are more of fascist dictatorships.

Good point. It doesn't matter what countries call themselves. "Communists" "Fascist Dictatorships" are bad words. What we should be willing to open our eyes to is whether despite the label we put on them, are they doing some things that we could learn from?

Hitler's Germany could be the worst government ever, but as soon as the war was over, the US (private companies and the public sector) both secretly and openly imported the best scientists they could lay their hands on (many should have been tried at Nuremberg) to bring to the US so we could learn from them. Our space, aviation, and chemical industries all made big leaps forward. Ike adopted the German autobahn system as a model for our interstate highways.

And there a dozens of developed countries which are democracies and allies that we might learn something from as well.

 

[lawpoke87]

Let me ask this question again: What are the current communist counties (Laos, Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba) doing well that we should emulate?

I provided their mean yearly salary data and a brief statement on human rights record in a prior post.

 

[TUMe]

Yes, we did bring some very good German scientists out after the war. Von Braun's knowledge of rockets was important.

However, the very best like Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr of occupied Denmark were brought out before our entry into the war. In fact many had objections to Nazism. German excellence in science predates World War I even and was also present during the Weimar Republic. Many of the top German scientists were Jews. And the most prominent were famous when Hitler came to power: Planck, Schrodinger [Austria], Born were famous long before Hitler. Oppenheimer's family was already in the US and he was born here. German excellence in science was because of Nazism but despite it.

The ideas we imported were ideas of German science not of Nazi scientists. Yes the Germans were leaders in rocketry but were way behind in atomic research because the best scientists studying nuclear physics were already in this country and England. You are really reaching to equate Germany science and technology as being Nazi...unless of course you count studies how long it takes a Jewish person to freeze in ice water.

Newton was one of the greatest scientific minds of all time, yet it doesn't prove that we can learn a lot from Monarchies. You are going a long way around to make a case for socialized medicine.

 

[astonmartin708]

Yes, we did bring some very good German scientists out after the war. Von Braun's knowledge of rockets was important.

However, the very best like Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr of occupied Denmark were brought out before our entry into the war. In fact many had objections to Nazism. German excellence in science predates World War I even and was also present during the Weimar Republic. Many of the top German scientists were Jews. And the most prominent were famous when Hitler came to power: Planck, Schrodinger [Austria], Born were famous long before Hitler. Oppenheimer's family was already in the US and he was born here. German excellence in science was because of Nazism but despite it.

The ideas we imported were ideas of German science not of Nazi scientists. Yes the Germans were leaders in rocketry but were way behind in atomic research because the best scientists studying nuclear physics were already in this country and England. You are really reaching to equate Germany science and technology as being Nazi...unless of course you count studies how long it takes a Jewish person to freeze in ice water.

Newton was one of the greatest scientific minds of all time, yet it doesn't prove that we can learn a lot from Monarchies. You are going a long way around to make a case for socialized medicine.

There's an awesome Netflix drama called 'heavy water' about the German race to the nuclear bomb (revolving around Oppeheimer & the allied/Norwegian effort to disrupt the Nazi's ability to advance the project) It's partially in German and English (possibly Norwegian as well?). I highly suggest it.

 

[TUMe]

Fortunately Hitler decided that a nuclear weapon could not be ready in time for the current war . He gave priority to V1 and V2 rockets. They were developed only enough for a terror weapon.

 

[WATU2]

And there a dozens of developed countries which are democracies and allies that we might learn something from as well.

Israel: Socialism or seeing what works?

 

[TUMe]

Wow my bank doesn't charge for deposits or withdrawals if they did I might also want to copy the idea. Most of our European friends are not keen on it either.

 

[rabidTU]

I am going to argue that while those countries say they are "communist", they are more of fascist dictatorships. As was the entire eastern bloc led by the USSR. Without the military backing, the leaders in those countries aren't able to hold on. The reason "communism" doesn't work is because someone has to be in charge and be the administrator although there really isn't a provision for that according to Marx.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Nazism_and_Stalinism

Finally got this linked.! If you just read the opening couple of paragraphs, it addresses Hitler and Stalin's admiration of one another. Their ideologies weren't all that dis-similar.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Let me ask this question again: What are the current communist counties (Laos, Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba) doing well that we should emulate?

I provided their mean yearly salary data and a brief statement on human rights record in a prior post.

They(Cuba) have a fantastic music industry!

 

[URedskin54]

They(Cuba) have a fantastic music industry!

They're also probably better at harassing political opponents than the IRS. They're just doing what works.

 

[noble cane]

Fortunately Hitler decided that a nuclear weapon could not be ready in time for the current war . He gave priority to V1 and V2 rockets. They were developed only enough for a terror weapon.

Godwin's Law

 

[TUMe]

Godwin's Law

Yeah, I don't get why WATU wants us to get more Nazi scientists, they are all long dead.

 

[lawpoke87]

We go from Obama asserting that we should take those things that work in communist countries ( obviously doesn't name any) and apply them to nazi scientist. Gotta love message boards.

 

[TUMe]

We go from Obama asserting that we should take those things that work in communist countries ( obviously doesn't name any) and apply them to nazi scientist. Gotta love message boards.

And it was the liberals who started it. Aston and WATU.

 

[TU 1978]

No, THIS nails it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-unimpressed-looks-bemused-world-leaders.html

 

[astonmartin708]

And it was the liberals who started it. Aston and WATU.

Woh. I made one post in this thread and it was just a suggestion for a show on Netflix.

 

[TUMe]

Woh. I made one post in this thread and it was just a suggestion for a show on Netflix.

Correction and humble apologies. I went back and reviewed and you are correct and I had even liked the post at the time.

Again, I apologize.