WTH is going on with Presidents and classified docs?

[HuffyCane]

I was glad to see McCarthy not give in on a couple of committee appts that the opposition in the Republican party wanted. There would have been clearances given to those two that could have been dangerous. It would have been like giving Omar or Cortez those appt.

Again, they don’t have or need clearances under the law. The rub is whether they are presumed trustworthy and whether they should be on committees where access to sensitive info is shared. That’s a slippery slope to decide. Mostly because any one who has sipped a cup of coffee in Washington has been around a Congressman or especially a staffer, on both sides, where you hear them say things or admit events in their past where you have legitimate questions regarding their loyalty to the United States.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Again, they don’t have or need clearances under the law. The rub is whether they are presumed trustworthy and whether they should be on committees where access to sensitive info is shared. That’s a slippery slope to decide. Mostly because any one who has sipped a cup of coffee in Washington has been around a Congressman or especially a staffer, on both sides, where you hear them say things or admit events in their past where you have legitimate questions regarding their loyalty to the United States.

Yeah, but that was one of the first & most important steps in saying they shouldn't be in those committees. Thus they really aren't trustworthy enough, on a need to know basis. And it came in what was almost a public rebuke to them.

 

[aTUfan]

Let’s wait and see what the facts are before we assume the White House press office is telling the full truth. I suspect not.

facts? now that a concept that democrats never let get in the way..

 

[noble cane]

All this talk about TS documents and not a word about whether they were renewable docs or not...

Sheesh..

 

[cmullinsTU]

I heard an interesting take on this situation and I think I agree with it, but I just heard it and haven’t done enough research to have a strong opinion.

Context: The 3 most recent presidential candidates, H Clinton, Trump, and Biden, have all been reported to have classified documents in locations that are not safe.

Take: Since the Freedom of Information Act was passed the number of documents that have been deemed classified has increased. This makes it more difficult for Presidents to keep all classified documents in the proper locations. And how secret is the information really? Additionally, many documents are never declassified.

The takeaway is there need to be qualifiers on what can be classified to prevent FOIA circumvention and thereby reduce likelihood of this continuing to happen.

 

[astonmartin708]

I heard an interesting take on this situation and I think I agree with it, but I just heard it and haven’t done enough research to have a strong opinion.

Context: The 3 most recent presidential candidates, H Clinton, Trump, and Biden, have all been reported to have classified documents in locations that are not safe.

Take: Since the Freedom of Information Act was passed the number of documents that have been deemed classified has increased. This makes it more difficult for Presidents to keep all classified documents in the proper locations. And how secret is the information really? Additionally, many documents are never declassified.

The takeaway is there need to be qualifiers on what can be classified to prevent FOIA circumvention and thereby reduce likelihood of this continuing to happen.

I do agree, although the content of some of what Hillary and Trump had was likely still ”classifiable”

 

[HuffyCane]

All this talk about TS documents and not a word about whether anyone is asking questions why the sitting US President was taking a salary from a university think tank that was working on a book on his term as Vice President and to do so was reviewing documents clearly marked as classified. You want intent? Intent to retain the docs to facilitate fact checking and ghost writing a multi million dollar book deal.

Sheesh..

FIFY

 

[drboobay]

If this were really a minor issue, Biden's folks would have addressed it fully already rather than let this all drag on. I suspect it is a significant violation and would not at all be surprised to see impeachment brought up in the House particularly with the mix of people sitting there now, though it is probably a few months away.

 

[lawpoke87]

If this were really a minor issue, Biden's folks would have addressed it fully already rather than let this all drag on. I suspect it is a significant violation and would not at all be surprised to see impeachment brought up in the House particularly with the mix of people sitting there now, though it is probably a few months away.

The House has spent far too much time and effort on impeachments while neglecting other pressing issues. Hopefully we don’t go that route again. Even if significant violations are found.

 

[drboobay]

The House has spent far too much time and effort on impeachments while neglecting other pressing issues. Hopefully we don’t go that route again. Even if significant violations are found.

By no means am I hoping for it. But I am predicting it.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

The House has spent far too much time and effort on impeachments while neglecting other pressing issues. Hopefully we don’t go that route again. Even if significant violations are found.

They already had plans when Biden won, and now they are talking about Mayorkas. What do you think will happen. Impeachment is the new black.(or maybe the new prison suit orange)

 

[HuffyCane]

Every US President since World War II has had articles of impeachment filed against him. Impeachment, much to the general public’s lack of awareness, is an industry in DC. There are full time professional jobs for lawyers, investigators, and hacks in Congress, the White House counsel’s office, as well as in the private sector. People that go their entire careers working in the field.

Going into an impeachment is like an invasion. It takes considerable resources and logistics challenges. You don’t wade in based on news reports. You’ll get smoked. You get it right. And if you don’t allow sufficient time and resources, you risk embarrassing yourself with Articles that are historically inaccurate. And that’s the first rule of thumb with these people. Preserve your place in history. America is NEVER wrong. One of Pelosi’s legacies, from the point of view from people across both sides of the aisle will be impeachment. Not just giving the J6 impeachment a floor vote, but the hearings afterwards to establish the “facts” and the minority efforts to document/clear up numerous factual inaccuracies after the fact in other committees. So nobody is eager on the Republican side to do a Presidential impeachment right now with removal at this point being impossible. They’ve geared up and staffed up and monied up for a year to impeach him by proxy by seeking to impeach Mayorkas and you don’t pivot staff with investigative backgrounds in immigration policy and make them experts in classified document handling. They will have to find all of those people new jobs and bring in IC people. That could take up to a year. Meanwhile the criminal justice system will grind on against the President or clear him. McCarthy has his hands full already. He will likely let the executive branch do its job enforcing the law and move on to more re-electable issues for the Rep. Congress trying to act like both cops and grand jury during the J6 thing didn’t sit well with a lot of members and frankly knowledgeable people thought the did a bad job of it. Further complicating things is you had Congress saying Trump ordered everyone to do it while the Justice Department is in the middle of seditious conspiracy trials filing motions to prohibit defendants from telling juries “I thought Trump told me to do it and couldn’t form criminal intent.” We don’t know what Biden knew and when he knew it and we won’t have hearings, if at all, until that is known. People forget that the Watergate hearings were initially called with the idea of clearing the President, but permanently crippling him politically to get him to capitulate on other issues. They thought there was no evidence of wrongdoing and the hearings would play that out. Then out of the blue, during the early days of the investigation, months before hearings began, Butterfield admits that there was proof on tape and they should go try to find it. That’s when Dean turned. He knew he would be indicted if he didn’t. We might get the same scenario here. Slow trickled leaks with underlings either taking the fall or cutting deals for giving up the gossip. Inevitably, the curb appeal of a criminal case against anybody in their 80’s who can’t remember it’s Wednesday, go up stairs unaided at times, and appears lost on camera frequently isn’t someplace any criminal or impeachment team wants to go. The Sleepy Joe campaign the last three years by the Republicans May end up keeping him in office. For the Dems, they’ve got to project abroad that America is strong because Biden is strong while simultaneously telling America’s voters that he’s America’s harmless forgetful grandpa who totally would never knowingly steal government classified documents with the idea of giving them back when his books were done.

Get your popcorn. I think his term is done but even if they can prove he committed a felony, he stays in office at this point. Which means your fight ahead is in the courts as the executive uses it’s administrative power to declare their rules changes to be the law, because they lack the votes in Congress to pass those rules into statutes and have a base to soothe and a campaign to win.

 

[lawpoke87]

More classified material found at Biden’s house over the weekend. Now it appears Pence has joined the party. Not sure what the answer is but something probably needs to be changed as far as the access, tracking, and storage of these docs.

 

[drboobay]

More classified material found at Biden’s house over the weekend. Now it appears Pence has joined the party. Not sure what the answer is but something probably needs to be changed as far as the access, tracking, and storage of these docs.

It seems this is a systemic issue that goes beyond any one person.

 

[URedskin54]

Of the people mentioned, Hillary's violations were probably the most egregious. The personal unsecured server with real-time classified info is very bad. Her and Trump are probably tied on embarrassing themselves by failing to cooperate afterward.

 

[HuffyCane]

You guys are missing the overall. It’s not that these guys are guilty. They are. And we could probably find other laws that they’ve all broken. It’s why you are reading about it and why their lawyers (who don’t have clearances and commit crimes themselves when they read or take possession of the documents even if the FBI says it’s OK) are dropping dimes on their clients. The field is being cleared here. Ask yourselves why.

 

[URedskin54]

Is it being cleared? To me the commonality of it will encourage people not to care about it at all

 

[Gmoney4WW]

You guys are missing the overall. It’s not that these guys are guilty. They are. And we could probably find other laws that they’ve all broken. It’s why you are reading about it and why their lawyers (who don’t have clearances and commit crimes themselves when they read or take possession of the documents even if the FBI says it’s OK) are dropping dimes on their clients. The field is being cleared here. Ask yourselves why.

You don't think the lawyers are being given instructions by their clients,(Biden, Pence, etc.) to make sure there are no classified documents? I never got the impression that they were surreptitiously dropping a dime on their clients, without the clients knowledge.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Is it being cleared? To me the commonality of it will encourage people not to care about it at all

That's what worries me. 'Everybody does it, don't worry about prosecution.'

 

[lawpoke87]

That's what worries me. 'Everybody does it, don't worry about prosecution.'

I see exactly this occurring. Instead of prosecution the focus will be on new measures to prevent what appears to be the widespread mishandling of classified material.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

You guys are missing the overall. It’s not that these guys are guilty. They are. And we could probably find other laws that they’ve all broken. It’s why you are reading about it and why their lawyers (who don’t have clearances and commit crimes themselves when they read or take possession of the documents even if the FBI says it’s OK) are dropping dimes on their clients. The field is being cleared here. Ask yourselves why.

Oops, I just read about Pence having repeatedly made claims before, that he didn't have any documents. I can't believe that Trump would have access or bribing/blackmailing capability to both of their lawyers.(Biden & Pence) But that's what is seemingly possible. Or more importantly, the power structure in the Republican party are the ones responsible. Maybe somebody like Graham has those contacts. I can't see people like McCarthy or McConnel being responsible. I always got the feeling they wanted Trump to be gone.

Graham is such a sleaze ball, just like Giuliani.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Trump is coming out in defense of Pence now? God this is a pit of snakes. You can't tell who is going to bite whom, and when.

 

[drboobay]

Trump is coming out in defense of Pence now? God this is a pit of snakes. You can't tell who is going to bite whom, and when.

Self interest.

 

[Clong83a]

Oops, I just read about Pence having repeatedly made claims before, that he didn't have any documents. I can't believe that Trump would have access or bribing/blackmailing capability to both of their lawyers.(Biden & Pence) But that's what is seemingly possible. Or more importantly, the power structure in the Republican party are the ones responsible. Maybe somebody like Graham has those contacts. I can't see people like McCarthy or McConnel being responsible. I always got the feeling they wanted Trump to be gone.

Graham is such a sleaze ball, just like Giuliani.

Disagree that anyone is being set up here. On some level, these people lived and breathed classified info on a whole other level that is hard to imagine. Half of everything they do ends up classified for at least some short period of time, and probably a huge percentage of the documents they deal with are as well. And they do deal with a boatload of paperwork that ends up in random file cabinets and boxes.

So on that human level, it is understandable that mistakes happen when they suddenly shift and move back to civilian life. As other have said, this has probably been common since Nixon.

What is weird is Trump refusing to hand them over after being called on it and having a warrant served on him to get them back. Then Biden having them but only finding them 6 years after leaving office, and then continuing to find more in random places. And then Pence, who ought to be aware enough to know to keep his mouth shut, spouting off that he surelyy doesn't have anything only to then have a dozen documents found in his house.

There really ought to be a throrough search done by the Archives through all former VPOTUS/POTUS's documents when they move back home within a reasonable time period to make sure they got everything. Anything found at that point doesn't make the news. Then, if anything turns up later that was in some searched box, it is as much on the Archives as it is on the former POTUS/VPOTUS.

I guess I always just assumed that was what happens, but apparently not.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

Disagree that anyone is being set up here. On some level, these people lived and breathed classified info on a whole other level that is hard to imagine. Half of everything they do ends up classified for at least some short period of time, and probably a huge percentage of the documents they deal with are as well. And they do deal with a boatload of paperwork that ends up in random file cabinets and boxes.

So on that human level, it is understandable that mistakes happen when they suddenly shift and move back to civilian life. As other have said, this has probably been common since Nixon.

What is weird is Trump refusing to hand them over after being called on it and having a warrant served on him to get them back. Then Biden having them but only finding them 6 years after leaving office, and then continuing to find more in random places. And then Pence, who ought to be aware enough to know to keep his mouth shut, spouting off that he surelyy doesn't have anything only to then have a dozen documents found in his house.

There really ought to be a throrough search done by the Archives through all former VPOTUS/POTUS's documents when they move back home within a reasonable time period to make sure they got everything. Anything found at that point doesn't make the news. Then, if anything turns up later that was in some searched box, it is as much on the Archives as it is on the former POTUS/VPOTUS.

I guess I always just assumed that was what happens, but apparently not.

I just can't quite figure out why they seemingly sent their lawyers to look for documents,(both Pence & Biden) knowing what would happen if either of them revealed they found documents. It seems as if there are source documents(originals) in a vault. Otherwise why would Pence have an aid put them in a burn bag to be destroyed,(as Pence said often happened when he got through looking at them at the Whitehouse) if there were not originals in a vault.

If there are originals, then why did they not just find them and burn them, without telling anyone. Yes that is a crime, but it is one that would probably never have been discovered. It accomplishes the same thing as Pence or Biden putting them in a burn bag at the Whitehouse. It would likely have no repercussions for them, and wouldn't have any chance at putting Trump back in the running for winning back the presidency. I seriously doubt either of them want to take a chance of putting Trump back in the presidency. Although I am questioning that with Pence, now that Trump is defending him.

 

[HuffyCane]

Disagree that anyone is being set up here. On some level, these people lived and breathed classified info on a whole other level that is hard to imagine. Half of everything they do ends up classified for at least some short period of time, and probably a huge percentage of the documents they deal with are as well. And they do deal with a boatload of paperwork that ends up in random file cabinets and boxes.

So on that human level, it is understandable that mistakes happen when they suddenly shift and move back to civilian life. As other have said, this has probably been common since Nixon.

What is weird is Trump refusing to hand them over after being called on it and having a warrant served on him to get them back. Then Biden having them but only finding them 6 years after leaving office, and then continuing to find more in random places. And then Pence, who ought to be aware enough to know to keep his mouth shut, spouting off that he surelyy doesn't have anything only to then have a dozen documents found in his house.

There really ought to be a throrough search done by the Archives through all former VPOTUS/POTUS's documents when they move back home within a reasonable time period to make sure they got everything. Anything found at that point doesn't make the news. Then, if anything turns up later that was in some searched box, it is as much on the Archives as it is on the former POTUS/VPOTUS.

I guess I always just assumed that was what happens, but apparently not.

The Archives isn’t cleared to do that work. Only the FBI is cleared to do that. You know that once you think about it. And the FBI has been a little busy the last few years prosecuting thousands of people across the country for J6. But make no mistake the blame isn’t solely on the politicals leaving with documents. You know that too if you think about it.

I’m tied up now. More later.

 

[Clong83a]

The Archives isn’t cleared to do that work. Only the FBI is cleared to do that. You know that once you think about it. And the FBI has been a little busy the last few years prosecuting thousands of people across the country for J6. But make no mistake the blame isn’t solely on the politicals leaving with documents. You know that too if you think about it.

I’m tied up now. More later.

Sure, okay. But there's no reason they couldn't be. Most of classification rules come out of the executive branch, and could be changed by the executive branch to facilitate such a thing. You could have the FBI do it. Or the Secret Service/Treasury. Or some guys from the the Archives. Doesn't really matter.

As an example, it is possible to get searched while leaving my worksite. If the security guard finds a classified doc on me, it's not a good argument to just point the finger at the guard and claim he doesn't have the need to know what was in that document so he should get in trouble too. It's true he doesn't need to know what exactly is in the document, but he does have a need to know if I am carrying anything marked classified on my person as I exit the building. That's his job. If he reads it and gets himself into trouble, then that's on him.

Point is that it is possible to have a very small number of people get cleared to help screen all documents that ended up at a former POTUS/VPOTUS's house as a standard part of transition. The screeners have a job of finding potential classified docs in a box in a garage. They have a "need to know" enough to view cover pages and headers to complete their task. They don't have to take possession. Just report back to the former POTUS, "Hey, in box L5 there are three coverpages which appear to have documents inside them marked 'TS/SCI'.". Make a report of as much so that if the former POTUS does nothing to rectify the situation with the proper custodian of those documents, then it is clearly on him.


It definitely isn't solely on an official that left office if something or several somethings got misfiled into the wrong box. A mistake was made in a likely frenetic situation, and it might not be their fault at all. It's hard to say when exactly, but at some point they are absolutely responsible for what they accepted into their possession at their home. Sometime measured in months or weeks, not years.

Edit: It might have to be voluntary on the part of the former official, since it would mean the team rifling through what should MOSTLY be personal documents. But I would tend to think that most (maybe Trump excepted) would be willing to have the help and the reduced liability.

 

[HuffyCane]

Sure, okay. But there's no reason they couldn't be. Most of classification rules come out of the executive branch, and could be changed by the executive branch to facilitate such a thing. You could have the FBI do it. Or the Secret Service/Treasury. Or some guys from the the Archives. Doesn't really matter.

As an example, it is possible to get searched while leaving my worksite. If the security guard finds a classified doc on me, it's not a good argument to just point the finger at the guard and claim he doesn't have the need to know what was in that document so he should get in trouble too. It's true he doesn't need to know what exactly is in the document, but he does have a need to know if I am carrying anything marked classified on my person as I exit the building. That's his job. If he reads it and gets himself into trouble, then that's on him.

Point is that it is possible to have a very small number of people get cleared to help screen all documents that ended up at a former POTUS/VPOTUS's house as a standard part of transition. The screeners have a job of finding potential classified docs in a box in a garage. They have a "need to know" enough to view cover pages and headers to complete their task. They don't have to take possession. Just report back to the former POTUS, "Hey, in box L5 there are three coverpages which appear to have documents inside them marked 'TS/SCI'.". Make a report of as much so that if the former POTUS does nothing to rectify the situation with the proper custodian of those documents, then it is clearly on him.


It definitely isn't solely on an official that left office if something or several somethings got misfiled into the wrong box. A mistake was made in a likely frenetic situation, and it might not be their fault at all. It's hard to say when exactly, but at some point they are absolutely responsible for what they accepted into their possession at their home. Sometime measured in months or weeks, not years.

Edit: It might have to be voluntary on the part of the former official, since it would mean the team rifling through what should MOSTLY be personal documents. But I would tend to think that most (maybe Trump excepted) would be willing to have the help and the reduced liability.

You are really going to go up to the Hill and propose the FBI give away their investigative authority then give clearances to a bunch of GS-9 museum workers and tell them they are authorized to seize evidence and make the decision to begin criminal investigations related to espionage/counter intelligence/nuclear secrets, etc. The most precious secrets only the highest level employees can see? Yeah, think again. It would take years to train them to inspect and seize the evidence anyway even if somebody were interested in going along with that. Much less nobody and I mean nobody being willing to take the political risk of those people leaking what they read or selling it for cash since they are paid nothing. If you plan on paying them more then pay the FBI to do it. And they are. When they are called.

The biggest problem Biden has is he and his people knew they should have called the Justice Department the minute they were aware of the docs (assuming they didn’t know all along they were there and they were innocent). Instead, they called the Archives hoping Archives would be good loyal Democrats and flush it away or feet drag and if it did come out they could run the story they float now that they “fully cooperated” — if knowingly sending in your uncleared lawyers and museum types to view classified documents, a federal felony, rather than turn them over to law enforcement, is “fully cooperating.” That’s some pretty powerful demonstration of consciousness of guilt.

The only reason you and I know about this story is that some mid level bureaucrats were smart enough to see the criminality in this plan and called the Inspector General of the Archives. OIG is a law enforcement agency and was having none of it. THEY, not the Biden people or their leadership at the archives called DOJ. And it leaked apparently from there.

I’m not going to discuss entry/exit procedures in this forum. The WH secured areas have protocols to defeat this behavior. They weren’t followed apparently. There’s more at stake here than whether Mike Pence comes in 3rd or 8th in New Hampshire.

 

[HuffyCane]

You don't think the lawyers are being given instructions by their clients,(Biden, Pence, etc.) to make sure there are no classified documents? I never got the impression that they were surreptitiously dropping a dime on their clients, without the clients knowledge.

I can almost guarantee that this has already happened. No lawyer is going to eat the sandwich for their client. Which is what Biden floated after the archives dodge didn’t work: my lawyers will read all the documents and if they find any classified ones they will tell us. Pinky promise. Except that’s a felony and lawyers are not supposed to commit felonies. And have affirmative duties to report clients about to commit felonies.

 

[aTUfan]

whst goes around, comes around.

 

[Clong83a]

You are really going to go up to the Hill and propose the FBI give away their investigative authority then give clearances to a bunch of GS-9 museum workers and tell them they are authorized to seize evidence and make the decision to begin criminal investigations related to espionage/counter intelligence/nuclear secrets, etc. The most precious secrets only the highest level employees can see? Yeah, think again. It would take years to train them to inspect and seize the evidence anyway even if somebody were interested in going along with that. Much less nobody and I mean nobody being willing to take the political risk of those people leaking what they read or selling it for cash since they are paid nothing. If you plan on paying them more then pay the FBI to do it. And they are. When they are called.

The biggest problem Biden has is he and his people knew they should have called the Justice Department the minute they were aware of the docs (assuming they didn’t know all along they were there and they were innocent). Instead, they called the Archives hoping Archives would be good loyal Democrats and flush it away or feet drag and if it did come out they could run the story they float now that they “fully cooperated” — if knowingly sending in your uncleared lawyers and museum types to view classified documents, a federal felony, rather than turn them over to law enforcement, is “fully cooperating.” That’s some pretty powerful demonstration of consciousness of guilt.

The only reason you and I know about this story is that some mid level bureaucrats were smart enough to see the criminality in this plan and called the Inspector General of the Archives. OIG is a law enforcement agency and was having none of it. THEY, not the Biden people or their leadership at the archives called DOJ. And it leaked apparently from there.

I’m not going to discuss entry/exit procedures in this forum. The WH secured areas have protocols to defeat this behavior. They weren’t followed apparently. There’s more at stake here than whether Mike Pence comes in 3rd or 8th in New Hampshire.

Just to be perfectly crystal clear, neither am I. You'll note I posed it as a possible outcome, and I will add it is one which is announced a priori via multiple public signs on public roads (you and your vehicle may be searched at any time). Not as something that normally does or doesn't happen as a part of OpSec.

 

[Gmoney4WW]

I can almost guarantee that this has already happened. No lawyer is going to eat the sandwich for their client. Which is what Biden floated after the archives dodge didn’t work: my lawyers will read all the documents and if they find any classified ones they will tell us. Pinky promise. Except that’s a felony and lawyers are not supposed to commit felonies. And have affirmative duties to report clients about to commit felonies.

Edited to clarify who the pronouns were referencing.

That's not exactly addressing what I'm talking about. I wouldn't think they would be going through his files unless he instructed them to do so. Yes if his attorney found a file accidentally or intentionally they would not be inclined to cover it up.(I'm referring to both Biden & Pence when I say he/his.) The question is why were they going through the files in the first place. My impression was it was on their instructions. I wouldn't think rifling through their paperwork would be part of their normal duties, without the client asking them to do so.

That would be incredibly expensive secretarial work.

 

[aTUfan]

we have replaced DWB with DWR ( driving while Republican )